Saw Peter Bernstein live
David Moss
Martin Sasse (p) and his trio. They played Peter's and
Martin's own compositions, tasteful modern straightahead
stuff. Peter's playing was as great as I know it from CDs -
I really like the way he can do the modern mainstream
thing but still have his own voice.
The organizer of the gig was local guitarist Chris Eckert,
he's a friend of mine so I got introduced to Peter and got
to chat with him after the show. Sitting near the front, I'd
been struck by how little he uses his pinkie - he said yeah,
a lot of people tell him that but he's not really aware of
it. He says he just puts his left-hand fingers in the position
where he gets the tone he wants, and that leaves his
pinkie hanging down out of the way.
Anyway, having seen what he can do with three fingers,
maybe I'll be a little less uptight about forcing my own
pinkie to get into the action!
markr
live setting that on record. Do you agree?
-Mark R
markr
Holger Weber
"David Moss" <david.no...@anka.fzk.de> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:d5b6fd$goe$00$1...@news.t-online.com...
I saw him last Friday and he's getting better and better. He seems to be
exploring even more intervallistic ideas these days, swings really hard, and
it's fun to watch how much he is loving to play. Very good trio too, I'm a
huge fan of that band.
Holger
P.S. Hope we meet at Chris' housewarming party soon?
Adam Gottschalk
"David Moss" <david.no...@anka.fzk.de> wrote:
> Anyway, having seen what he can do with three fingers,
> maybe I'll be a little less uptight about forcing my own
> pinkie to get into the action!
...And Bickert getting a phenomenal tone on that crazy beat-up tele. And
Tuck used to say that he'd practise regularly with one or two fingers on
either hand taped up, just to be sure that he'd be able to do gigs if he
had broken fingers! Anyway, David, I know we've corresponded about bass
playing lately. For me, bass has forced me to get rid of old guitaristic
things which weren't necessarily optimal for playing, but which I stuck
to out of misunderstanding that they were optimal. So, on the bass, I
still find myself going out of my way to do
1-finger-per-fret-for-four-frets. In the end, I've found, I can be just
as quick and accurate, while inducing less stress in the hands, by using
only 2 or 3 LH fingers. I know this is particular to bass/longer-scale
instruments, but it strikes me as pertinent. How about Wes using only
his RH thumb? Hope I get to see Bernstein one day.
David Moss
That would be great! But, Chris didn't mention a party
to me yet - he had me and Anna over to dinner in the
new house, I thought that was the housewarming!
David Moss
> David, I've heard some say that PB's playing has much more
Yes I do, but not more so for PB than anybody else.
IMHO, jazz always sounds better live - and that's
a jazz thing, with rock music I prefer the recording,
with classical it's evens.
Holger Weber
It's because he doesn't know yet.. ;)
David Moss
> Anyway, David, I know we've corresponded about bass
> playing lately. For me, bass has forced me to get rid of old guitaristic
> things which weren't necessarily optimal for playing, but which I stuck
> to out of misunderstanding that they were optimal. So, on the bass, I
> still find myself going out of my way to do 1-finger-per-fret-for-four-
> frets. In the end, I've found, I can be just as quick and accurate, while
> inducing less stress in the hands, by using only 2 or 3 LH fingers. I
> know this is particular to bass/longer-scale instruments, but it strikes
> me as pertinent.
Yes, completely pertinent, very good point. Now you come to
mention it, I also do the one finger per fret thing on bass, and
I'm also getting aware that it's not optimal. On guitar, I know
using my pinkie slows me down on some phrases - it's slower
and weaker, I can't do a good pull-off or hammer-on with it.
But I've been sticking at it to develop more strength and
dexterity in my pinkie, because that's what the Berklee books
say... maybe I should just forget that shit and play!
David Moss
>
> It's because he doesn't know yet.. ;)
Aha! Well, I guess we'll have to tell him about it
sometime, so he can cancel any gigs and be there
to hand out the beers...
Keith Freeman
> been struck by how little he uses his pinkie
I learned from Garrison Fewell that that is one of the elements in getting
good phrasing. He pointed to Grant Green and (to a lesser extent) Pat
Martino as examples.
-Keith
Music samples, tips, Portable Changes at
http://home.wanadoo.nl/keith.freeman/
E-mail: keith DOT freeman AT wanadoo DOT nl
Jon Fox
Unknown
<dont.use.t...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>> I'd
>> been struck by how little he uses his pinkie
>
>I learned from Garrison Fewell that that is one of the elements in getting
>good phrasing. He pointed to Grant Green and (to a lesser extent) Pat
>Martino as examples.
This theory -- that using 3 fingers results in better phrasing -- has
been discussed here before. It seems difficult to support given that
the vast majority of players who phrase beautifully use all four
fingers of the left hand.
I'm not one to tell others how to make music, so if you play with 3
fingers and make it work, enjoy. But there are basic principles of
guitar technique that have been evolving for more than 200 years. That
certain players are able to ignore the principles and still make music
does not necessarily mean that it is a good idea for others to emulate
them.
It is not that difficult to train your left hand to use all four
fingers. Any player who is just starting out should be taught to do
so.
Tim
http://timberens.com
A Website for Guitarists
Learn something...Have some fun
timb at erinet dot com
Joe Finn
"David Moss" <david.no...@anka.fzk.de> wrote in message
news:d5b6fd$goe$00$1...@news.t-online.com...
> He was playing in a nearby town here in Germany, with
> Martin Sasse (p) and his trio. They played Peter's and
> Martin's own compositions, tasteful modern straightahead
> stuff. Peter's playing was as great as I know it from CDs -
> I really like the way he can do the modern mainstream
> thing but still have his own voice.
He's one of the best of his generation. Peter's harmony is very advanced as
is his sense of form and style. I heard him play solo last year which was
great. He did some duo stuff with Jimmy Bruno too. Peter has quickly become
a favorite of mine. ......joe
--
Visit me on the web www.joefinn.net
ric...@gmail.com
[...]
> I'm not one to tell others how to make music, so if you play with 3
> fingers and make it work, enjoy. But there are basic principles of
> guitar technique that have been evolving for more than 200 years.
That
> certain players are able to ignore the principles and still make
music
> does not necessarily mean that it is a good idea for others to
emulate
> them.
Wes Montgomery played most of his solos with three fingers. He only use
the pinky when playing octaves. From the videos of him, it looks like
he had pretty big hands.
...richie
Tom Walls
ad...@adamgottschalk.net says...
So, on the bass, I
> still find myself going out of my way to do
> 1-finger-per-fret-for-four-frets. In the end, I've found, I can be just
> as quick and accurate, while inducing less stress in the hands, by using
> only 2 or 3 LH fingers.
I used a method book by Ron Carter in which he recommended using both
the 3rd and 4th fingers simultaneously. Ergo -- note on third fret first
position: 3rd and 4th finger behind 3rd fret, note on fourth fret first
position: 3rd and 4th finger behind 4th fret. I thought, "That's
allowed?" At any rate, it works real good and reduces the stress on your
hand.
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
ric...@gmail.com
Mel Bay "Peter Bernstein Live at Smokes" DVD?
...richie
markr
jeff...@yahoo.com
And Django used two fingers. What is the point? Also, Martino, does
use four fingers when I see him in concert. Use whatever technique you
need to play your lines. I don't think arbitrarily saying I will only
use three or four fingers will buy you much.
David Moss
<ric...@gmail.com> wrore...
> Speaking of Peter Bernstein Live, does anyone know
> the status of the Mel Bay "Peter Bernstein Live at
> Smokes" DVD?
Peter mentioned it, I think he said it's coming out soon,
or it just came out.
Jeanmi
got used to play with the 3rd and 4th fingers together.
Works well. The angle of your fretting hand changes with each
technique: I try to use the 3 fingers only wherever possible, I really
phrase *much* better this way (I slur a lot more this way too). And it
helps getting out the 4 frets position thing (which my favorite players
don't do - wes, benson, django, jim hall....). Using the first 2
fingers is very intesting too (ala django) and is faster than one may
think. You got to *try* these seriously, an you can combine them.
Tom Walls a écrit :
Keith Freeman
> use four fingers when I see him in concert.
phrasings that have become part of the classic jazz guitar sound. As
Garrison Fewell said, you're unlikely to come up with these phrasings if
you start out playing them with four fingers. Once you have the phrasings
down, you can finger them how you like.
Unknown
<dont.use.t...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>> Also, Martino, does
>> use four fingers when I see him in concert.
>Sure, so does Burrell. The point is that they use certain three-finger
>phrasings that have become part of the classic jazz guitar sound. As
>Garrison Fewell said, you're unlikely to come up with these phrasings if
>you start out playing them with four fingers. Once you have the phrasings
>down, you can finger them how you like.
>
Can you give an example of a lick that uses three-finger phrasing that
can not be played well using four fingers?
tomb...@jhu.edu
(Tim Berens) wrote:
>
> Can you give an example of a lick that uses three-finger phrasing
that
> can not be played well using four fingers?
Most slurs and bends sound better using the ring finger than
the pinky, because you get a fatter tone and more control
out of having more meat on the string.
Keith Freeman
> can not be played well using four fingers?
The best way of hearing how using three fingers affects phrasing is to do
it! As Garrison said, if you don't try it, you'll never know if it works
for you.
Also watch and/or listen closely to Kenny, Grant and (non-octave) Wes.
One of the things it did me for me - in addition to making my phrasing
more jazzy - was get me out of that boxed-in position-playing by forcing
me to slide up and down the neck far more.
ric...@gmail.com
Mel Bay still doesn't show it as available :(
BTW, I saw Peter Bernstein play with Jimmy Bruno at Chris's Jazz Caffe
in Philly few weeks ago. The two of them sounded great together...
...richie
icarusi
> I'm not one to tell others how to make music, so if you play with 3
> fingers and make it work, enjoy. But there are basic principles of
> guitar technique that have been evolving for more than 200 years. That
> certain players are able to ignore the principles and still make music
> does not necessarily mean that it is a good idea for others to emulate
> them.
>
> It is not that difficult to train your left hand to use all four
> fingers. Any player who is just starting out should be taught to do
> so.
As a 3.5 fingered player (any 3 from 4) trying to move to 4 fingers, I find
*improvising* on non-chromatic lines or 3 note chromatic lines using 'any 3
from 4' permutations is slightly quicker and feels smoother than 4 fingers
and some fingerings for fingers 1,2&3 are quicker than for 1,2&4 or 2,3&4.
The problem area seems to be which of fingers 3&4 to move, if not already in
a learned sequence. I suspect if you start out using 4 fingers it may not be
a problem, but if you extend 3 finger playing to 4 fingers it's more of a
hindrance than 'native' 4 finger players may experience. I use lots of slurs
and string bends so my fingerings will be less 'optimal' generally, so I can
use or accommodate those slurs and bends into my playing.
Icarusi
--
remove the 00 to reply
icarusi
news:1115328640....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Robben Ford does this too. He explains in his hot licks video how he
> got used to play with the 3rd and 4th fingers together.
He only seems to use that technique on his bluesier playing. When he gets
jazzy he seems to use all 4 fingers very fluidly.
Eric G
>And Django used two fingers. What is the point? Also, Martino, does
>use four fingers when I see him in concert. Use whatever technique you
>need to play your lines. I don't think arbitrarily saying I will only
>use three or four fingers will buy you much.
Well stated!
Ultimately, when players start playing guitar they gravitate to a
three or four finger approach (fretting hand) because it feels most
natural to them. They will continue in this fashion until a teacher or
someone else convinces them to change, if ever.
Once they've played a number of years it will become very difficult to
make that change.
So you have three and four finger players. Can you play/phrase the
same way with three fingers as you can with four fingers? No.
The nice thing about using four fingers (as I do), is that you can
have your cake and eat it too! Yes there are a bunch of 'jazzy
sounding' phrases that sound best with three fingers. So I use only
three fingers for these types of phrases. Pretty simple.
Eric
Eric G
>Can you give an example of a lick that uses three-finger phrasing that
>can not be played well using four fingers?
>
>Tim
Sure here's just one classic one:
Starting at fifth position:
G A Bb D F
1 3 3 2 1
Not only does it sounds jazzier and stronger with three fingers but it
sets you up for a move to higher positions. And I'm a die-hard four
finger player!
Eric
Unknown
I don't understand how this fingering will sound any "jazzier" than
using four fingers. The right hand articulation will have much more
impact on the rhythmic feel of this lick than the left hand fingering,
unless you are slurring the notes. And then, a well trained 4th
finger can handle the slur from A to Bb quite easily.
I'm not trying to be difficult. I realize that I am being difficult
about it, but I'm not trying to be.
This idea -- that using 3 fingers sounds "jazzier" that using 4
fingers-- simply does not make sense to me. I notice no difference at
all in sound between using 3 or 4 fingers on this phrase.
cl...@claymoore.com
Hi Tim,
I don't think you're being difficult at all, just discussing. I heard
Richie Hart do a clinic at IAJE last year where he discussed the
3-fingers-are-better theory in depth. He listed a bunch of players,
including Wes, Benson, Grant Grenn, and Burrell that he claims all use
three fingers (Burrell subs the 4th for the 3rd) and demonstrated how
Wes's vocabulary was played using 3 fingers. He's kind of a Wes
"freak," and teaches a class on Wes at Berklee. I don't know that I
came away convinced, but it was certainly a cool presentation. BTW,
Benson is another person who claims you get better phrasing with 3 than
4.
Like most self-taught blues/rockers I started using 3 fingers, and
worked in the 4th when I learned major scales via Howard Roberts'
columns in Guitar Player magazine, about a year after I began playing.
I didn't have to unlearn much.
Clay Moore
http://www.claymoore.com
Eric G
>I don't understand how this fingering will sound any "jazzier" than
>using four fingers. The right hand articulation will have much more
>impact on the rhythmic feel of this lick than the left hand fingering,
>unless you are slurring the notes. And then, a well trained 4th
>finger can handle the slur from A to Bb quite easily.
Yes it would be a slur (or slide). I've been using my pinky for many
many years but it will never be as strong as my ring finger.
And you can hear a difference between a hammer-on and a slide.
>
>I'm not trying to be difficult. I realize that I am being difficult
>about it, but I'm not trying to be.
>
>This idea -- that using 3 fingers sounds "jazzier" that using 4
>fingers-- simply does not make sense to me. I notice no difference at
>all in sound between using 3 or 4 fingers on this phrase.
Tim, remember we are both in the same camp basically. I am a 4-finger
player, but there are phrases that actually do sound better when using
three fingers and so that's when I use them.
You can hear a difference. I was experimenting last night with some
licks ending on the pinky and then ending on the ring finger. The
difference was subtle but noticeable, tone-wise alone. I may put in
more time with it for that subtle difference. It's like going from an
11 to 12 guage or 12 to 13 guage string. On my hands anyways, there's
more flesh on my ring than pinky finger and you can actually hear the
difference in tone.
jeff...@yahoo.com
I think this is probably closer to the truth. Most self-taught players
naturally learn to play using three fingers so this is the most
comfortable for them. I started first with classical lessons so the
classical position and four fingers is most natural for me. Also, the
size and shape of the hand is a factor in this. My hand isn't large
enough to play a lot of phrases with three fingers that others can play
fairly effortlessly, such as a pentatonic box in the first position.
In the end, I think, a lot of us are getting wrapped up in the
techniques of our favorite players instead of their music. For my
money, the classical players have far and away the best pure technique
for the guitar.
Keith Freeman
> money, the classical players have far and away the best pure technique
> for the guitar.
jazz guitar - I want low-down and dirdy!
icarusi
"Keith Freeman" <dont.use.t...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9651DB828...@194.134.69.69...
> > For my
> > money, the classical players have far and away the best pure technique
> > for the guitar.
> No doubt, but that produces a 'pure' sound, which is not what I want from
> jazz guitar - I want low-down and dirdy!
Is 'swing' now in the classical guitar technique?