Treatment of C/E in Falling Grace
Joey Goldstein
this tune many years ago it seemed that people like Metheny and Gary
Burton would treat this more or less like a Cmaj7/E and I learned the
tune using C Ionian on this chord, for the most part.
But most straight ahead players when they see this tune assume that the
C/E is part of a II V in F since it is preceeded by Gm/F and followed by
Fmaj7. So C/E is treated more or less like C7. That makes sense but has
never sounded right to me. Particularly, the typical ways to alter the
V7 chord never seem to gel with this progression. It doesn't "feel" like
a II V, which probably has it cause in the effect of the bass line I
think as well as the fact that the C/E occurs in a stronger metrical
position (it begins a 4 bar phrase) than the Gm/F.
Lately I can't help but feel like C lydian is the best colour for this
chord but I can't figure out why. It just sounds right. More right than
most other choices. As you all know, I'm a bit of an analytical chap so
I like to be able to justify these types of choices somehow. But by
everything I know the F# in the C lydian scale should sound real out of
place here, but it doesn't.
The only thing I can think of is that by having E in the bass the chord
feels more like an Em(addb6) chord than a real C chord. Any real key
feeling is further impaired also by the 3rd invervion Gm7 chord so when
arriving at C/E it feels like a major chord with a non diatonic root.
Most non diatonic major chords work best with the lydian scale rather
than the major scale.
Here's the changes for those of you who don't know the tune:
Abmaj7 / / / | / / / / |D7/F# / / / |Gm7 / / / |
Fm7 / Bb7 / |Eb6/G / D7/F# / |Gm7 / / / |
C/E / / / |Fmaj7 / / / |F#m7b5 ..... etc.
--
Regards:
Joey Goldstein
Guitarist/Jazz Recording Artist/Teacher
Home Page: http://webhome.idirect.com/~joegold
Email: <joegold AT idirect DOT com>
RobinsonCHAZZ
situation I think that this can be done in the following way:
Instead of seeing G-7/F| C/E| FMaj.7 as a mutated II/V/I, convert
G-7/F to the relative major- Bb. Now you have the simple mixed progession
Bb|C|F or Bbmaj7|Cmaj7|Fmaj7. You can now play either the Ionian, Lydian or
Pentatonic scales for each of these chords. CR<<<
Joey Goldstein
played throught the tune and heard it all as a II V I in F! Every time I
play through this tune I hear it differently.
Guess the cancel didn't take on your server.
Jack A. Zucker
--
--
Jack A. Zucker
E-Mail: j...@jackzucker.com
Jazz Guitar Page: http://www.jackzucker.com
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:3A194F4A...@nowhere.net...
RobinsonCHAZZ
turns out that there is truly no C7 sound intended there my solution is
definetly the simplest. It is written that way (C/E) in an old fakebook called
"The West Coast Cookbook" . CR
<< Hah. I tried to cancel this post because right after I posted it I
played throught the tune and heard it all as a II V I in F! Every time I
play through this tune I hear it differently.
Guess the cancel didn't take on your server.
RobinsonCHAZZ wrote:
>
> A while back everyone was talking about simplifying thier thinking. In this
> situation I think that this can be done in the following way:
>
> Instead of seeing G-7/F| C/E| FMaj.7 as a mutated II/V/I, convert
> G-7/F to the relative major- Bb. Now you have the simple mixed progession
> Bb|C|F or Bbmaj7|Cmaj7|Fmaj7. You can now play either the Ionian, Lydian or
> Pentatonic scales for each of these chords. CR<<<
>
>
Joanna Tarr & Jim Bogart
just noticed that it's arranged for piano in my "The Music Of Gary
Burton" book. For that chord they call it Cmaj.7, but the chord
voicing they use is a C/E - E,C,G,C from low to high, basically just a
C triad.
On 21 Nov 2000 04:31:00 GMT, robins...@aol.com (RobinsonCHAZZ)
wrote:
Joey Goldstein
Joanna Tarr & Jim Bogart wrote:
>
> I've always thought of the C/E as a C7, because of the context. I
> just noticed that it's arranged for piano in my "The Music Of Gary
> Burton" book. For that chord they call it Cmaj.7, but the chord
> voicing they use is a C/E - E,C,G,C from low to high, basically just a
> C triad.
It was so long ago that when I had GB as a teacher at Berklee but that's
how I remember him treating it too. Interesting that that would wind up
in a published score.
> >When
> >> I learned
> >> this tune many years ago it seemed that people like Metheny and Gary
> >> Burton would treat this more or less like a Cmaj7/E and I learned the
> >> tune using C Ionian on this chord, for the most part.
--
Tom Lippincott
if that was based on any direct knowledge of Steve Swallow's intention.
Tom Lippincott
Guitarist, Composer, Teacher
audio samples, articles, CD's at:
http://www.tomlippincott.com
RobinsonCHAZZ
Rick Stone
Tom Lippincott wrote:
>
> Dan Hearle called it C7 when I took an improv class with him, but I don't know
> if that was based on any direct knowledge of Steve Swallow's intention.
Hey, it's preceded by Gmin7, it has the Leading Tone in the bass and
it's moving to Fmaj7. I always play the chord as a simple C Triad over
E, but from an improvisors standpoint, it's definitely a Dominant
function chord.
____________
/ Rick Stone \_________________________________________
| guitarist/composer/teacher |
| email: rick...@rickstonemusic.com |
| Check out the Rick Stone Quartet "Far East" |
| with Kenny Barron at: http://www.rickstonemusic.com |
|______________________________________________________|
Rick Stone
>
> just noticed that it's arranged for piano in my "The Music Of Gary
> Burton" book. For that chord they call it Cmaj.7, but the chord
> voicing they use is a C/E - E,C,G,C from low to high, basically just a
> C triad.
It's definitely just a triad, but it has a Dominant function in the key
("F" at the point of the tune). You are well advised to look at what's
actually IN the piano voicing as opposed to the chord symbol (in general
the symbols are much less trustworthy). A lot of people just get "major
7th happy" whenever they start writing symbols for simple triads.
Joey Goldstein
Rick Stone wrote:
>
> Tom Lippincott wrote:
> >
> > Dan Hearle called it C7 when I took an improv class with him, but I don't know
> > if that was based on any direct knowledge of Steve Swallow's intention.
>
> Hey, it's preceded by Gmin7, it has the Leading Tone in the bass and
> it's moving to Fmaj7. I always play the chord as a simple C Triad over
> E, but from an improvisors standpoint, it's definitely a Dominant
> function chord.
I totally agree, but it just so happens that C lydian or C ionian sound
real good at this point too.
RobinsonCHAZZ
but it is not the only possible one. Musicians like Swallow and others during
that period were exploring other harmonic resources, particularly chromatic
harmony. Viewed in the context of chromatic harmony the use of a major7th in
that position would be perfectly acceptable thus justifying Goldstein's use of
the Ionian, and Lydian. Another possible explanation is that all three chords
are unrelated entities in a mixed progression (this idea of mixed progressions
is closely related to that of chromatic harmony so things begin to take on the
aspect of boxes within boxes). Does anyone have the original recording and have
they transcribed portions of the solos during that part of the progression? CR
<< Hey, it's preceded by Gmin7, it has the Leading
Tone in the bass and
> it's moving to Fmaj7. I always play the chord as a simple C Triad over
> E, but from an improvisors standpoint, it's definitely a Dominant
<<
I totally agree, but it just so happens that C lydian or C ionian sound
real good at this point too.< Joey Goldstein >>
Marc Sabatella
recording the piece; sorry to butt in here. I hadn't thought about it
before, but when I just tried to play it now, I found myself avoiding the
seventh, or more accurately, treating it as a passing tone and not a chord
tone. In this sense, either the B or Bb work, with a definite sense that Bb
plays a functional role the B doesn't, yet actually incorporating the Bb
into the voicing in a way that implies it truly is a C7 chord doesnt sound
right to me, either.
Then again, I am almost completely unfamiliar with recordings of the piece
other than my own. This is in fact one of only two tunes I've ever recorded
based solely on seeing it in the Real Book, playing it, and liking how it
sounded (the other being Keith Jarrett's "Lucky Southern"). After learning
"Falling Grace" from the book, I heard a Corea/Burton duo recording
(actually saw it on video), thought they did it too fast, and never bothered
checking out any other recordings. Since it is a Steve Swallow tune, I
wasn't too worried that the chart in the Real Book was inaccurate, but I did
cross check it against the Chuck Sher chart once just to be sure there
wasn't anything funny going on.
> Another possible explanation is that all three chords
> are unrelated entities in a mixed progression (this idea of mixed
progressions
> is closely related to that of chromatic harmony so things begin to take on
the
> aspect of boxes within boxes).
I'll give you an analogy here - the last two chords of "Flamenco Sketches" -
some sort of D chord, followed by a Gm chord with a dorian scale. The D
chord can either be heard as D7susb9 - perhaps with G harmonic minor - to
emphasize its "dominantness", or as Dm7b9 - D phrygian - to emphasize its
"modalness". On the original recordings, it seems you can hear evidence of
both types of thinking.
--------------
Marc Sabatella
ma...@outsideshore.com
Check out my latest CD, "Falling Grace"
Also "A Jazz Improvisation Primer", Sounds, Scores, & More:
http://www.outsideshore.com/
Joey Goldstein
Marc Sabatella wrote:
>
> Chazz told me about this discussion, presumably because he knew of my
> recording the piece; sorry to butt in here. I hadn't thought about it
> before, but when I just tried to play it now, I found myself avoiding the
> seventh, or more accurately, treating it as a passing tone and not a chord
> tone. In this sense, either the B or Bb work, with a definite sense that Bb
> plays a functional role the B doesn't, yet actually incorporating the Bb
> into the voicing in a way that implies it truly is a C7 chord doesnt sound
> right to me, either.
It's weird isn't it? That's my exact feeling too.
Some days when I play this a C7 chord-scale seems to sound like the only
way this should be played and some other days it's a Cmaj7 chord-scale
but everything I know about music makes me think it should be C7 that
sounds right. This is really a completely triadic situation in that the
quality of the 7th is ambiguous and ill defined. The 7th is not part of
the actual harmony. Its use is mainly as an approach note.
I always fall back to a little rule-of-thumb of mine in a situation like this:
The actual chord tones are the only notes that have to be in your
chord-scale (that is if it is a chord-scale you're looking for in the
1st place). The non chord tones just serve to color the chord.
C E and G are the most important notes to be targeting at this point in
this tune, although D's (and A's) sound pretty strong too. Any of the
remaining notes of the 12 tone scale have to be treated more carefully.
This same type of ambiguity pops up in some of Metheny's old tunes from
his 1st album as notated in the Real Book.
Unquity Road has a bunch of Maj6 chords where you would expect to see
Maj7 or Dom7 chords. Since the quality of the 7th is not defined by the
chord, sometimes a maj7 sounds strong and sometimes a min7 sounds
strong. Usually, on this tune, omitting the 7th completely from your
lines is the safest approach.
Also, Waltz is comprised of mostly major and minor triads but the triads
move in patterns not found within any common scale. Again the quality of
the 7th is ill defined by the harmony and can be heard different ways at
different times.