How long does it take?
Dick Onstenk
guitarist?
Judging from what I read from guys such as Jimmy Raney, Wes, Tal Farlow,
Charlie Christian etc. and from what I have seen from music school grads
my guess is considerably less than 5 years if you make a full time
effort at a reasonably young age with a healthy dose of talent. 3-4
years maybe?
Of course I realize the crude generalization.
Kind of a silly question maybe but I find this intriguing ...
Dick
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Jurupari
guitarist I'm just now hitting my stride and I'm almost 60! There are others
who make the trip in no time. I ran into a 16 year old kid who may study with
me, but he's already a pretty good jazz guitarist and a fingerstylist at that.
I think I could have probably made the trip much faster with newsgroups and CD
slowdowns and Biab and solo transcriptions, but it still would have taken me
longer than lots of people - whole big damn lots, actually, but I'm stuck with
the brain I brung, so I'll dance with the thing..Fortunately I'm enough of an
optimist that it doesn't bum me out - I'm just glad to be doing what I'm able
to do.
Clif Kuplen
Stan Gosnell
news:c7501bbbb757589aa86...@mygate.mailgate.org:
> How long does it take to become a proficient or even great Jazz
> guitarist?
Depends completely on the player. Talent is a continuum, & everyone
has a different level of it. Some of us will never be proficient, almost
all of us will never be great, & some are great pretty much right out of
the box. I put myself in the first category.
--
Regards,
Stan
Max Leggett
<d.on...@chello.nl> wrote:
>How long does it take to become a proficient or even great Jazz
>guitarist?
>
>Judging from what I read from guys such as Jimmy Raney, Wes, Tal Farlow,
>Charlie Christian etc. and from what I have seen from music school grads
>my guess is considerably less than 5 years if you make a full time
>effort at a reasonably young age with a healthy dose of talent. 3-4
>years maybe?
I think you hit the nail on the head when you say, "... a reasonably
young age." I think you should be hitting the guitar 5+ hours a day
from the age of 13 or so, so that by the time you're 23 you've really
put in some time. Wes started _really_ late, at 16, but that was Wes.
Rick Ross
"Dick Onstenk" <d.on...@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:c7501bbbb757589aa86...@mygate.mailgate.org...
Greg D
> How long does it take to become a proficient or even great Jazz
> guitarist?
>
> Judging from what I read from guys such as Jimmy Raney, Wes, Tal Farlow,
> Charlie Christian etc. and from what I have seen from music school grads
> my guess is considerably less than 5 years if you make a full time
> effort at a reasonably young age with a healthy dose of talent. 3-4
> years maybe?
>
> Of course I realize the crude generalization.
>
> Kind of a silly question maybe but I find this intriguing ...
>
> Dick
I just finished my Master's thesis on this very topic.
I applied numerous sophisticated scientific test and measurement techniques
including Puldaleg's Learning Curve Differential Analsysis, O'comeon's
Upthinking Assessment, and Puhleeze's Analytical Thinking and Learning
Model.
From my exhaustive research, I conclude precisely that the length of time to
become a proficient jazz guitarist is given by the following table. These
measurements were confirmed by over 3 weeks of test subject analysis.
Age started #Years to attain proficiency (assuming proper training
and practice)
4 12
6 8
8 7
10 6
15 8
20 13
30 15
50 14
As you can clearly see, age 10 is the optimum time to begin learning. After
that, it takes subjects longer to learn, evening out by age 30.
There you have it! Wrapped up nice and neat with full scientific support.
Greg
PS. Of course, I'm kidding!
cl...@claymoore.com
<d.on...@chello.nl> wrote:
>How long does it take to become a proficient or even great Jazz
>guitarist?
>
>Judging from what I read from guys such as Jimmy Raney, Wes, Tal Farlow,
>Charlie Christian etc. and from what I have seen from music school grads
>my guess is considerably less than 5 years if you make a full time
>effort at a reasonably young age with a healthy dose of talent. 3-4
>years maybe?
>
>Of course I realize the crude generalization.
You can look at some of the proidigy cases. Pat Martino started
playing at the age of 11 (I think) and was gigging at 14 or 15.
Metheny is another example; he started around that same age and
recorded a groundbreaking album 10 years later, so he was already
accomplished at 15 or 16 I imagine. I was playing a gig in Johnstown,
PA about 20 years ago and talked to a guy who knew Joe Pass from the
time Joe was a kid. He said he used to see Joe carrying his guitar to
gigs when he was in his teens, and that he played the way he did on
his later records at that age. If I had to make any kind of leap, it
would be that playing out and working with older, more experienced
players is the ticket. There's only so much you can do in your room,
although all these guys spent a lot of time shedding to get their
physical skills up to par I'm sure.
Clay Moore
NJD
says...
> You can look at some of the proidigy cases. Pat Martino started
> playing at the age of 11 (I think) and was gigging at 14 or 15.
> Metheny is another example; he started around that same age and
> recorded a groundbreaking album 10 years later, so he was already
> accomplished at 15 or 16 I imagine.
I've heard he practiced incessantly almost from the beginning.
--
Nick Delonas
Author of the third worst album of all time!
Henry Moon
> guitarist?
>
> Judging from what I read from guys such as Jimmy Raney, Wes, Tal Farlow,
> Charlie Christian etc. and from what I have seen from music school grads
> my guess is considerably less than 5 years if you make a full time
> effort at a reasonably young age with a healthy dose of talent. 3-4
> years maybe?
>
> Of course I realize the crude generalization.
>
> Kind of a silly question maybe but I find this intriguing ...
>
> Dick
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dick, I think 5 years of constant effort would make one proficient..at
most things, including guitar. But great? I dont know. That begs a few
more intriguing questions, two of which that come to mind: Great to
who? I think many of us guitar players are cursed with the inability
to appreciate our own playing, I'm told Wes Montgomery was even this
way. But to the rest of us, he is great. I dont know what or how long
it takes before we can evaluate our own proficiency with any degree of
accuracy. The second question is the most beguiling and the hardest
to discuss or ponder, at least for me.: you've got 2 proficient
players, what makes one 'make the hairs on your arm stand up' when he
plays...not for just a few, most for most listeners, while the other
plays and is appreciated for his technical ability only...and just by
a few people. I dont know what to call this extra quality, where it
comes from or how long it takes to get here. Could it just be 'a gift,
or just marketing, [God forbid] Or a combination of circumstances,
specific influences and genes.? I sure dont know, but I wish I did. I
didnt mean to stray too far from your original thought, but it got me
to thinking. thinking. thinking. So many gifted players, so few very
special ones. Or maybe not.
Henry
GGarava352
as 8. I dont think he had much of a normal childhood , maybe thats why he was
on heroin around age 20.
Gerry
ben
Hi, i dont post often, but was interested to hear you talk about 'music
school grads' as im in my first year at leeds college of music (u.k), and im
hoping by the time ive finished ill be 'good enough' to be able to earn a
living (hah!) and hopefully express myself on the guitar fluently. but when
does one become good? i think if you ever think your good you'd stop
practising, theres always something you cant do. so when greg D was talking
about the science of becoming good what were his standards? what is 'good'.
hopefully well always be learning but reach a stage where we'll feel
proficient yet not self satisfied.
maybe well never be happy and continue flagulating ourselves with
practise regimes until we die....ah well the life of an artist!
Ben
thomas
> guitarist?
Your question presumes that anyone can become great. I wonder
about that.
> Judging from what I read from guys such as Jimmy Raney, Wes, Tal Farlow,
> Charlie Christian etc.
That's not quite a representative sample, is it?
> and from what I have seen from music school grads
> my guess is considerably less than 5 years if you make a full time
> effort at a reasonably young age with a healthy dose of talent. 3-4
> years maybe?
All depends on how much time they put in and how. I think for normal,
non-prodigies, it would take at least five years to become proficient
in jazz at the level of a working pro. You can learn to play the instrument
and play the right notes over changes in less time, certainly. But it seems
to require a certain amount of playing with pro-level players to polish it
off, and before you can even begin that final apprenticeship, you first
have to get some basic chops together.
Djimbo
news:<c7501bbbb757589aa86...@mygate.mailgate.org>...
> How long does it take to become a proficient or even great Jazz
> guitarist?
>
> Judging from what I read from guys such as Jimmy Raney, Wes, Tal Farlow,
> Charlie Christian etc. and from what I have seen from music school grads
> my guess is considerably less than 5 years if you make a full time
> effort at a reasonably young age with a healthy dose of talent. 3-4
> years maybe?
>
> Of course I realize the crude generalization.
>
> Kind of a silly question maybe but I find this intriguing ...
>
I sucked when I was eight, 'cause I didn't like to practice, I just wanted
to noodle to the radio. By the time I was 15, I was GREAT, 'cause I had a
huge amp. At 20, reality hit again, I sucked. At 30, I played a lot, but
w/out any direction other than a desire to get better, I began getting
better, again. I was drunk from 15 to 35 though, so these recollections
could be a tad skewed. Right around 35, I started to realize that I'd been
playing the same stuff for 27 years... I sucked. I'm diggin' in now, and I'm
gettin' better, but to be proficient to the degree that most in this news
group would agree on, I'll refer to Greg D's formula, and start over again.
To be happy, I just have to pick up my axe.
--
Djimbo
Thom_j.
many and when, if at all? To me, what makes great?
Robby
"GGarava352" <ggara...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020517203858...@mb-ct.aol.com...
Margaret Wilson
Regards,
Margaret
"Jurupari" <juru...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020517150827...@mb-ma.aol.com...
Joe Finn
news:c7501bbbb757589aa86...@mygate.mailgate.org...
> guitarist?
>
seems appropriate. I have always said that it's the work of a lifetime. It
seems to me that a lot of the great ones came to music early and stayed as
long as they lived.
The other component is cultural. A lot of the great players grew up with the
music. When you are surrounded by music as a child the development process
is greatly enhanced. Latecomers are at a relative disadvantage.
.....joe
--
Visit me on the web. www.JoeFinn.net
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Steve Modica
Henry Moon wrote:
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Dick, I think 5 years of constant effort would make one proficient..at
> most things, including guitar. But great? I dont know. That begs a few
> more intriguing questions, two of which that come to mind: Great to
> who? I think many of us guitar players are cursed with the inability
> to appreciate our own playing, I'm told Wes Montgomery was even this
> way. But to the rest of us, he is great. I dont know what or how long
> it takes before we can evaluate our own proficiency with any degree of
> accuracy. The second question is the most beguiling and the hardest
> to discuss or ponder, at least for me.: you've got 2 proficient
> players, what makes one 'make the hairs on your arm stand up' when he
> plays...not for just a few, most for most listeners, while the other
> plays and is appreciated for his technical ability only...and just by
> a few people. I dont know what to call this extra quality, where it
> comes from or how long it takes to get here. Could it just be 'a gift,
> or just marketing, [God forbid] Or a combination of circumstances,
> specific influences and genes.? I sure dont know, but I wish I did. I
> didnt mean to stray too far from your original thought, but it got me
> to thinking. thinking. thinking. So many gifted players, so few very
> special ones. Or maybe not.
> Henry
Speaking from a project management perspective, it's all about the
requirements you set up front. Saying "I want to be a great guitar
player" is not a goal. You have to define great in measureable terms.
I want to release an album
I want to post an mp3 that gets a record number of downloads
I want to win this or that trophy.
I want to learn all the Joe Pass tunes on such and such album.
You can of course add to these as you go, but if you don't shoot for
something you can measure, you'll never see your progress and you'll
never feel accomplished.
Look at Joey. He can now spell "vertical" *and* "horizontal" :) Time
to move on!
Steve
icarusi
news:ac4dbc$3ab$1...@knossos.btinternet.com...
> Hi, i dont post often, but was interested to hear you talk about
'music
> school grads' as im in my first year at leeds college of music
(u.k), and im
> hoping by the time ive finished ill be 'good enough' to be able to
earn a
> living (hah!) and hopefully express myself on the guitar fluently.
Slightly off the topic I noticed recently Wayne Krantz is playing at
Leeds Wardrobe on 29th May. Might be of interest to yourself and
collegues, if you haven't already booked.
http://www.leeds.ac.uk/music/LJ/wardrobe.shtml
http://www.leeds.ac.uk/music/LJ/concerts.shtml
He has other dates in the UK from 21-29 May which can be found in the
tour section of his website.
http://www.waynekrantz.com/
Icarusi
--
remove the 00 to reply
Bob Agnew
there's that young whippersnapper Anthony Wilson! Go figure. Wes could have
played a Kazoo and he would have been the world's greatest Kazoo player. He
even made the Dobro and the Kaypro sound good! Fact is, he had a
"phonographic memory" and could play back any phrase you threw at him
verbatim, then he would repeat it upside down, inside out and backwards,
just for good measure. Without an ear like that, it's a hard act to follow.
"Dick Onstenk" <d.on...@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:c7501bbbb757589aa86...@mygate.mailgate.org...
Bob Agnew
is a little optimistic. e.g. Wes once said that it would take him at least
ten years to work up a decent right-hand style with a pick. Of course
that's from a guy who was his own worst critic!
"Dick Onstenk" <d.on...@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:c7501bbbb757589aa86...@mygate.mailgate.org...
ben
im gonna go, its the night after my guitar exam so were gonna go and let off
a little steam!
ben
icarusi
It might be worth going early. According to a Manchester teacher,
Wayne sometimes does clinics before his set. Worth probably checking
with the venue, at least?
ben
> It might be worth going early. According to a Manchester teacher,
> Wayne sometimes does clinics before his set. Worth probably checking
> with the venue, at least?
>
> Icarusi
Thanks for the advice, ill definatly check!
ben
Mitch Seidman
My gosh, there are so many factors to consider. Some people have
played the same four chords for forty years, and others practice,
study, and gig, and are cookin' pretty darn good in four or five
years. Some are adequate at 21, much better at 35, much deeper and
stylized at 45, masterful at 55, and they keep on growing. Then you
'got those who are dazzling at 21, but it wears thin and levels off
soon after. You have to consider talent, physical ability, confidence,
communication, expression (Very important!).
I've been at this most of my life...and I STILL sometimes feel like a
beginner.
I suggest enjoying the learning and playing process, and not to worry
about being "on schedule".
Mitch
Joe Finn
>
> My gosh, there are so many factors to consider. Some people have
> played the same four chords for forty years, and others practice,
> study, and gig, and are cookin' pretty darn good in four or five
> years. Some are adequate at 21, much better at 35, much deeper and
> stylized at 45, masterful at 55, and they keep on growing. Then you
> 'got those who are dazzling at 21, but it wears thin and levels off
> soon after. You have to consider talent, physical ability, confidence,
> communication, expression (Very important!).
> I've been at this most of my life...and I STILL sometimes feel like a
> beginner.
> I suggest enjoying the learning and playing process, and not to worry
> about being "on schedule".
> Mitch
Mitch: That reminds me of a "Wednesday night" story. On Wednesday nights I
have had the same two students back to back for about four years.
The younger one was 12 when he started the other guy is an adult. The 12
year old didn't strike me as having much musical aptitude at first. He could
barely play quarter notes. Nevertheless he always did what I told him to and
had a good work ethic. He was always prepared for his lesson. In four years
he has moved forward considerably. He now plays in two big bands, various
school bands and the occasional pit band. He is a fairly good reader. He
solos reasonably well. His time isn't the greatest but he is working on it.
He has a couple dozen really nice chord melody solos worked up too. He goes
to music camps in the summer and is considering a career in music education.
The adult is the other way. He actually has resisted my teaching him chord
melody. He likes to "solo" but doesn't want to practice scales and patterns
much. His reading is poor and he has no repertoire to speak of. He
participated in an improv clinic I gave but some of the kids can already
play circles around him.
The individual variation that you mention is a big factor. It's interesting
as an instructor to watch how different students progress [or fail to
progress] over the same period of time. ...........joe
Mitch Seidman
Hi Joe,
'Know exactly what you mean...It's so individual. As I said before,
everyone should enjoy the process of learning and participating, or
they may get frustrated because it's so hard to hear your own growth.
Mitch