Why is Cal Collins forgotten?
thomas
excellent albums on the Concord label back in the 70s and early 80s.
And now he appears to be mostly forgotten or unknown even among jazz
guitar geeks.
Paul
Always post a link to either audio or video of anyone
who you are trying to promote or keep in the public consciousness:
Mr Maj6th
Not forgotten by me, I've always thought he was never fully
appreciated by guitarists. Ii think the only thing he lacked was
self-promotion. He seemed to be way too humble to lower himself to
that level.
Maj6th
Bg
All I have is his solo album which I enjoy muchly, a very fresh
appraoch to Solo.
Bg
Paul K
player ;-)
I saw him once, in the early 90s. Besides it being an awesome,
swinging, and entertaining show, I totally grooved on the fact that
during the set breaks he just set his priceless Benedetto balanced
precariously on the bar stool. Anybody who is that far on the "guitar is
just a tool" side of archtop ownership is my hero!
--
Paul K
http://www.soundclick.com/paulkirk
http://www.youtube.com/user/fibrationboy
http://mypage.iu.edu/~pkirk/
Bg
Bg
Kevin Van Sant
<4109c8f8-5ab0-4791...@i40g2000yqh.googlegroups.com> :
who?
.....just kidding! Cal was one of my favorites when I was learning
to play. I loved what he described as his "playing the whole box"
approach, and I was inspired that he was a fellow autodidact. I
guess he was always a bit under the radar. I remember the liner notes
of his first Concord date talked about how he was "undiscovered" until
into his 40's. But he was right in the thick of it in the heyday of
that label and the various festivals and jam-session tours associated
with it.
________________________________________
Kevin Van Sant
http://www.kevinvansant.com
info, music, videos, etc...
sheetsofsound
cincinnati
Kevin Van Sant
message <ijcfm9$k7h$1...@news.albasani.net> :
>I totally grooved on the fact that
>during the set breaks he just set his priceless Benedetto balanced
>precariously on the bar stool.
hey I do that with my L5 too! He's influenced me in ways I didn't
even know!
van
He was definitely one of the greats. I bought up every record and disc
I could find of his at the used record store I go to.
I was lucky enough to see him live at Bechet's in NYC. I think he was
the last jazz guitarist I went out of my way and paid a lot of bread
to see.
His ONLY mistake was allowing someone to videotape him and Jimmy Raney
playing together in a quartet.
No one could survive that, other than Jim Hall.
Lord Valve
That's an Ampeg VT-40, later production. (Magnavox.)
60 watts from two 7027s, four tens, reverb.
LV
ScotGormley
A really beautiful player and really nice person. I remember him
playing a solo version of Skylark that was so moving. The next year, I
heard Jack Wilkins play Skylark, too, and he did it as a tribute to
Cal. Anyone have an MP3 version of his Solo album? I've never seen it
available on CD.
Larry Grinnell
was playing a classical guitar instead of his then trademark Gretsch.
Wonderful player. His two solo albums on Concord were really enjoyable.
He also did a real cooking live concert album with Herb Ellis on
Concord.
As so prevalent among the Cincinnati-based players, he had a definite
country influence in his playing, which gave him a distinctive and
unique sound. I was saddened when I heard of his passing a few years
ago.
Larry Grinnell
In article
<4109c8f8-5ab0-4791...@i40g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
Bg
> playing together in a quartet.
> No one could survive that, other than Jim Hall.
I've seen those Raney/Collins tapes. some on Youtube, and I think he
acquitted him self quite well.
Bg
Roger
I first heard Cal when my dad brought home the "Concord Super Band
Live in Tokyo" album when I was in high school. I still play his
interpretation of Nuages on the gig, but of course not with the magic
and sparks that he had. Fantastic introduction that he put together
for that one.
Graham
> I've seen those Raney/Collins tapes. some on Youtube, and I think he
> acquitted him self quite well.
I agree, in fact I think they complement each other well because their
styles are so different.
And their enjoyment at playing together comes across too, at least it
appeared so to me.
Those videos are priceless despite any shortcomings in the quality.
Graham
Joe Finn
news:bsfjl6t5s0auk4027...@4ax.com...
I agree with this. In terms of who is "forgotten" and who isn't, it's simply
a matter of who you ask. I agree that his Concord stuff is tremendous.
Perhaps certain "jazz guitar geeks" still have a little homework to catch up
on. Collins was a wonderful player and his memory lives on among those who
appreciate great music. .....joe
--
Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net
Or say hello via Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/?ref=home
>
jimmybruno
Carl Jefferson (owner of Concord) only signed great players. Cal was
one of the best!
tom walls
Wait a minute -- that Kenny Burrell/Jimmy Raney album "Two Guitars" is
outasighteous!
Bg
Absolutely!
The was a scene in Autumn leaves where Cal does this nice arpeggiated
Voice leading thing, which Jim appreciated and turned around.
I could hear what he was doing, but it didn't make any sense to where
he was on the fingerboard.
Ah, they 're playing the tune in D min.
That tune doesn't seem to be on the Tube, but it's the same gig.
Bg
van
I agree that Cal played fine on those videos, but when playing with a
musician of Raney's melodic/rhythmic taste and sophistication, even
the best look like they're a bit rhythmically/melodically "challenged"
following Raney's solos.
Even Jim Hall didn't seem all that clean and balanced when he played
with Raney on those taped jam sessions at that artist's loft. I
haven't listened to "Otra Vez" in ages. I'll have to check that out
sometime.
Sure, you can look at it from the perspective of two different,
contrasting styles complementing each other, but a player like Raney
was so refined in his rhythmic/melodic conception, that when another
player played in the straight-ahead bag, all I tend to notice is their
flaws.
The Two Guitars Burrell/Raney is another one I haven't listened to in
a long time, so I should check that out, also.
Two guitar soloists in a group has a very easy chance of turning into
a clown act. The only two guitar things I like to listen to are the
Geo Barnes/Pizzarelli things.
Graham
> Two guitar soloists in a group has a very easy chance of turning into
> a clown act. The only two guitar things I like to listen to are the
> Geo Barnes/Pizzarelli things.
I like the Jimmy and Doug Raney pairing on Raney 81 and Duets. No
doubt 'keeping it in the family' helped!
Graham
tom walls
By total coincidence, on an iPod shuffle, I just listened to "MInor"
on "A" wherein Jimmy Raney duets with Jimmy Raney. Jawdropping, of
course, but, if I quibble -- and I do quibble -- it's kind of busy. A
bit Crazy Town.
Graham
> By total coincidence, on an iPod shuffle, I just listened to "MInor"
> on "A" wherein Jimmy Raney duets with Jimmy Raney. Jawdropping, of
> course, but, if I quibble -- and I do quibble -- it's kind of busy. A
> bit Crazy Town.
The duets Jimmy plays with himself on that Aebersold volume CD are
pretty good, and not too busy - in fact I made a copy just to play in
the car. Sound quality and Jimmy's tone are nice too, given it's
really a playalong demo.
Graham
tom walls
I've never heard that. I must buy it. Also, I'm withdrawing my
ridiculous "busy" quibble.
Bg
> a long time, so I should check that out, also.
> Two guitar soloists in a group has a very easy chance of turning into
> a clown act. The only two guitar things I like to listen to are the
> Geo Barnes/Pizzarelli things.
And Joe Pass with John Pisano quartets.
Bg
van
Those are the only two Jimmy Raney records I don't have. It just seems
to bug me when there are two guitarists who have a similar style
blowing one after another.
The Ed Bickert/Lorne Lofsky CDs is the same thing. I bought it, but I
never listen to it.
I don't like the double tracking things Raney did either. Those
thingsjust seem to annoy me.
Even Bill Evans "Conversations With Myself", though it contains many
profound things, can get on my nerves. Too confusing.
Gerry
I agree completely. It's a rarity that two guitars aren't one too many
for my ears.
--
-- Gerry
jazzmankg
> > The Two Guitars Burrell/Raneyis another one I haven't listened to in
It's difficult for ANY guitarist to play with Raney and most of them
say so themselves. Inevitably they are fans and he had a way of
setting the structure that makes it hard - he's so definite about
what he does and he was fully formed by 1953. The best guitar effort
I have heard were Jim Hall's efforts on Two Jims and Zoot. The
counterpoint was unreal. Dad was a huge admirer of Hall's art- but I
don't think Hall was quite ready in '55 '56 for the Loft material to
get out from under the Raney spell.
IMO Doug's best effort with him is Stolen Moments (the title track
and Jonathan's Waltz (ahem) are standouts. He was with his preferred
axe the L7 and had Billy Hart's support. And Doug's best playing was
still ahead of him. let's say by 1987 he was fully his own
personality. But Doug's comping is the real standout in the pairings.
He was like the rock of Gibraltar, propulsive and completely
tasteful.. If you could make Bill Takas swing on electric bass without
drums, you could make anybody swing.
Personally I don't see how Burrell managed after hearing this first
solo delivered with such nonchalance on the opening walking blues:
http://wp.jonraney.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/BlueDuke_Raneysolo.mp3
But he did alright as did Donald Byrd:)
vermelho
jazz = and not just blues drenched peices like this YT clip. I had a
Gretsch anniversary for many years that was my playing partners first
choice for our duet sessions together. It was always nice to have the
voices seperate, although I never thought of it first as a jazz guitar.
van
Bill Takas on electric bass? Why?; - 0
I'll have to pick up Stolen Moments.
The only other one I don't have is "Momentum", which has never been
issued on CD (to my knowledge).
I heard a track online ("Nobody But Me") and didn't like the treble-ly
tone on the guitar.
Is the whole LP like that, Jon?
BTW- we should all be excited that Jon is finishing his book on his
Father's playing, with plenty of transcriptions.
I'd pre-order my copy, but it's not even done yet!
RB
No offence, but that post was pure inflated nonsense.The way you
paint, it you would swear the world would have to end after that solo.
Hyperbolic hagiography.... Raney sounds only OK on that. There is the
always "white" rhythmic sense and tho he normally played longer ideas,
even that positive trait is not in this particular solo...And please,
Burrell sounds perfectly dreadful. McLean is the best sounding on this
lame track....
van
>
> - Show quoted text -
Man, you are the biggest fucking idiot I've ever run into.
Do you know that you're talking to Jimmy Raney's son, Jon?
On second thought, you probably did know that. That makes you a double
fuckin' idiot.
Why don't you go to TGP where you belong. Oh no, I forgot- you got
suspended from TGP for being an even bigger fuckin' idiot!
sheetsofsound
sheesh man. Chill out. Two wrongs don't make a right.
RB
No it doesn't make me an idiot. It makes me one of the few who is
prepared to correct a ridiculous hyperbole that has no grounding in
reality...Hagiography does his dad a bigger disservice than anything
else...
It's tough being a nothing in music aint it, Van. You feel
marginalized and unfairly left out because your precious guitar heroes
have been forgotten by all the younger masters. They have been
forgotten because they weren't that great in the first place. It's
obvious.....Pathetic....You are the kind of idiot that thinks Metheny
and Brecker are just "ok"...Pathetic.....And I GUARANTEE you cant play
sh!t. I will put ANY money on it. People like you who endlessly bleat
about how "bad" all the new music is, and how only Bird and his
followers knew the "truth" make me laugh endlessly....
sheetsofsound
dude - STOP! It's one thing to try to be a "voice of reality" but what
you're doing here is offensive. My question to you is:
Are you educating the ignorant masses or are you pointing out that
they are incapable of hearing what is (apparently) obvious to you? I
love you man but please STAND DOWN...
RB
> dude - STOP! It's one thing to try to be a "voice of reality" but what
> you're doing here is offensive. My question to you is:
>
> Are you educating the ignorant masses or are you pointing out that
> they are incapable of hearing what is (apparently) obvious to you? I
> love you man but please STAND DOWN...
ok, Jack, I stand down.
jazzmankg
incapable of hearing what is obvious to him? Meaning what exactly?
Listen RB is singing the same song-- the old guys are nothing next to
the new guys. And since I know some of the new guys and old guys who
DON'T have these opinions, much less the audacity to disrepect people
the way he does, what's the fucking point since we've already been
over this.
I usually don't lift personal things from musicians I think in this
case they'll have to forgive me because it's necessary
this is a direct from Metheny to Scofield to me:
Jon ....Thought i'd share this with you....got an email from Pat
Metheny ....hadn't spoken in a couple years ....a nice hello what's up
email...he included this....
"ps -- like everyone else, i am mixed about the you-tube-ization of
everything --
especially anything that i am actually in...(!)but...everything now
and then you hear/see something that is incredible....you
may have seen this before but i just listened to it about 4 times in
arow...wow, what a bad dude he was..."
It's a link to your Dad's Billies Bounce
He 's still knockin' us out!!
JScofield
I'm not doing a disservice here. I'm telling it like it is based on
more corroborated opinions that I know for a fact
RB is equating his preferences for the truth which for what he has
rolling around in his head.
But I'm not going to waste my breath on this board anymore, because
you can't reach someone who has this kind of disrespect
RB
Hey Jon,
I have absolutely ZERO disrespect for anybody. It is an almost
infinite leap in my world to go from disliking somebodies music to
disrespecting them....Only a childlike or dictator-like way of
thinking equates demurring on somebodies music w/ a disrespect for the
man/woman who makes it.
I also hate to break it to you, but emails and public declarations in
any field of work, and especially music, is virtually NEVER truthful.
It is almost ALWAYS "adjusted" for the fact that it reflects on the
person making the comment...You know, the same way that your dad
privately disliked some very well-known and respected musicians....and
yet played w/ them and "pretended" he liked their music.
This is real life, not some cartoon/airbrushed nonsense where great
musicians are SAINTS and people like me are SATANS...
RB
or Metheny, so I am in all likelihood full of crap when it comes to
this...They are the masters and my ears obviously cant hear to
anything like the depth that they can hear.
Gerry
A useless comparison. "Depth" is relative, and your listening habits
are likely not the same as Scofield and Metheny, so what you hear is
clearly not the same. For better or worse we are unable to let other
people's ears guide us through life.
Your ears hear whatever the hell they hear. Then you can report that
or not. Then others can be differ with you or not.
The break point is always the same: It's when the participants begin
analyzing/commenting/deconstruction ONE ANOTHER that civility is lost,
and the general stench then comes to dominate the setting. This then
informs us all about absolutely nothing.
--
-- Gerry
Gerry
> I'm not doing a disservice here. I'm telling it like it is based on
> more corroborated opinions that I know for a fact
If your intent was to prove that Scofield and Metheny liked Jimmy
Raney, you needn't have bothered. I don't like Jimmy's music because
they did. If they hated his music, I'd still find it indespensible.
> RB is equating his preferences for the truth which for what he has
> rolling around in his head.
We all listen differently and have our own tastes, and our own
"truths". This is true of fiction, music, movies, women, food--you get
the drift.
> But I'm not going to waste my breath on this board anymore, because
> you can't reach someone who has this kind of disrespect
I would encourage you not to consider one person's opinions
representive of the other 40 or 50 regular contributors. That's really
unfair. The rest of us appreciate your input, and we'd be the only ones
diminished by your absence.
--
-- Gerry
Graham
RB, can't we just agree once and for all that you don't like Jimmy
Raney as much as the 'modern masters'. It's an opinion and you're
perfectly entitled to it. Since I would guess that a lot of people
here own CDs by Raney, Burrell, Hall, Scofield, Metheny, McLaughlin
etc. etc. and appreciate the playing of ALL of them, it's really quite
pointless arguing about this. The majority probably don't need to be
'converted' anyway, and those that don't like the 'moderns' will never
be swayed by your intemperate remarks.
And Jon Raney is more than welcome to come here any time he likes and
tell us stuff about his dad or brother or anything else for that
matter - I sincerely hope he isn't put off by this nonsense.
By the same token, if someone who knew Metheny or Scofield personally
were to come here and share things with us about them, they would be
equally welcome and of interest to the group.
Graham
RB
You're absolutely right...I'm going to sign off from this thread now.
As usual, I sort of regret that I got involved, so I concede I was
wrong, and that I am the "baddie" and that I don't have an ear and
that I was being unnecessarily adversarial.
Graham
> You're absolutely right...I'm going to sign off from this thread now.
> As usual, I sort of regret that I got involved, so I concede I was
> wrong, and that I am the "baddie" and that I don't have an ear and
>
> - Show quoted text -
Well I'm sure you've got good ears RB - no need to disown your
auditory equipment!
Funnily enough my own preferences seem to be constantly changing these
days. As a kid I was totally into Hendrix, Beck, McLaughlin etc.,
then in my 20s I discovered jazz and became something of a 'bebop
purist' for many years. I wasn't so keen on Metheny/Scofield then,
but later I got into them more. Recently I have been digging those
Holdsworth clips someone posted on youtube, and last night I was
really getting off on a Frank Gambale session on that 'you are what
you hear' blog - I never even heard Frank before.
Shock-horror - I've even been playing some old Led Zep and Steely Dan
stuff in the car on the way to work and enjoying that too. Perhaps
it's a bit of a nostalgia trip - who cares!
So I'm not listening to much bebop stuff like Jimmy Raney at the
moment. But I'm sure I will sooner or later.
Graham
tom walls
> I agree completely. It's a rarity that two guitars aren't one too many
> for my ears.
> --
> -- Gerry
Me too, and I usually try to avoid playing with other guitarists
myself. But just last night I was thinking about how Muddy Waters
would often feature two slide guitars, or two harmonicas, and it would
sound really good. That's something that would never have occurred to
me. I guarantee that if a rock band tried this it would sound like
homemade shit.
tom walls
I guess by "OK", you must mean "terrific", and by "'white' rhythmic
sense" you're indicating that you have an unfortunate tendency to
generalize according to racial stereotypes, and "dreadful" means
"lovely", "up" is "down", "good" is "bad", and so forth...
jazzmankg
I may come back I don't know.
But not til RB does his fucking HW both on his own behavior/board
etiquette, which he continually doesn't have a perspective on and on
the work of established musicians he insults. The Raney faux pas over
Pass was unfortunate but he probably would've been horrified to see it
aired out like it is and RB your behavior here doesn't remotely
qualify on the same level.
Anybody can have their preferences but RB posts suggest someone who
"wants to set the world straight on on old opinions" and then back off
them when he realizes maybe its a bad idea. Again it's a matter of
credibility. When Miles Davis dug into some people, a lot of people
listened. When RB does it, it means nothing because he has zero
credibility- until he shows otherwise. But it still pisses me off. He
should just stop doing it. But he won't because somehow he sees
himself as a misunderstood shoot from the hip person or something.
So get a clue on how to interact socially, so you don't alternatively
have to be lashing out "you suck" then ok "I suck" I'll stop, when
someone you respect makes you -like Jack or- by virtue of quote -
Pat and Sco. Speaking of childish -- the previous is the definition of
a child-bully behavior. Plus to call my father's playing unswinging,
white etc or call my comments hyperbole or hagiographic directly to me
IS disrespectuful -- hot just adversarial. I'm hoping he looks into
this whole fracas and does some serious self-investigation to address
these interaction issues and this whole you suck/I suck passive/
agressive nonsense driven by God knows what. Best thing to do IMO is
to get to practicing and studying like the people you admires (and
whom they study for that matter) and stop posting uninformed over the
top garbage on message boards.
signing off
sheetsofsound
players on public forums. Folks can argue all he wants about peoples'
right to an opinion - and i agree - but the truth is it's
disrespectful and downright hurtful - to publicly diss someone's
playing.
It *ONLY* even remotely works because of the anonymous nature of the
internet.
Gerry
Please cut-and-paste all my previous responses here.
I think it's only "dissing" and only "name player" if it meets your
qualifications. I think people can state their dislike and disapproval
of any player or song or approach that they like, but they should do it
with a modicum of respect FOR THE PARTICIPANTS, not the iconic glory of
"Respected Elder #47".
If you bash somebody in the gob with the dislike of Kenny Burrell,
yeah, you're being a prick. If you think Burrell's music is boring
(Discussion #14), I don't think that's a problem except for the Kenny
Burrell Fan Club. And admittedly there are a few in that camp. They're
sensitive; okay, that's their problem.
I'm a big fan of any number of guitarists, this year it might include
Eddie Lang, Ed Bickert and Jimmy Raney to name a few. If somebody came
in saying they were all junkie psycho whores, that's code for "Hello,
I'm a troll, here to pull your chain." It bores me. I'm not about to
jump up and down on my podium, pound my chest and give them all the
glory they hunger for.
If they they say Lang is to rigid, Bickert doesn't have enough "energy"
and Raney's time is muddy I'll be glad to challenge and refute their
perspectives.
The nebulous concept of according due "respect" is just a confusing
social dance to me.
--
-- Gerry
Gerry
> On Feb 16, 2:26�pm, Gerry <addr...@domain.com> wrote:
>
>> I agree completely. It's a rarity that two guitars aren't one too many
>> for my ears.
>
> Me too, and I usually try to avoid playing with other guitarists
> myself. But just last night I was thinking about how Muddy Waters
> would often feature two slide guitars, or two harmonicas, and it would
> sound really good. That's something that would never have occurred to
> me. I guarantee that if a rock band tried this it would sound like
> homemade shit.
Oh... there's some great exceptions. Barnes and
whoever's-in-the-2nd-chair is one. Parts of Lofsky/Bickert too. But
it's like any two voices, you want a change of sound. I think having
two very different guitars together is also nice, like a slippery
solidbody and a big-boat archtop, leveraging there differences.
--
-- Gerry
sheetsofsound
> The nebulous concept of according due "respect" is just a confusing
> social dance to me.
Maybe that's the real issue. If you see nothing wrong with saying
Raney's time is bad *AND THEN* you see nothing wrong with telling
Raney's son that his dad's time is bad *AND THEN* you post this in a
public forum...well, there's nothing left to discuss...
It's obvious that some folks just don't understand common grace and
acceptable behavior.
Pupkin
> On Feb 17, 11:55�am, Gerry <addr...@domain.com> wrote:
>
>> The nebulous concept of according due "respect" is just a confusing
>> social dance to me.
>
> Maybe that's the real issue. If you see nothing wrong with saying
> Raney's time is bad...
I don't. Do you think it's impermissable for RB to say Raney's time is
bad, or do you think that's okay? Simple question.
> *AND THEN* you see nothing wrong with telling
> Raney's son that his dad's time is bad *AND THEN* you post this in a
> public forum...
I didn't say that and never implied it. Don't do that Jack. When you
cite things I didn't say to argue with I call that disingenuous. If you
disagree with what I say, I have no complaint.
--
-- Findley Quality Network --
Quality really is our middle name!
Gerry
Oops. That was me.
--
-- Gerry
sheetsofsound
WTF? I never said *YOU* said any of that stuff.
Pupkin
Okay, I'll try again:
> On 2011-02-17 09:01:43 -0800, sheetsofsound said:
>
>> On Feb 17, 11:55 am, Gerry <addr...@domain.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The nebulous concept of according due "respect" is just a confusing
>>> social dance to me.
>>
>> Maybe that's the real issue. If you see nothing wrong with saying
>> Raney's time is bad...
>
> Do you think it's impermissable for RB to say Raney's time is bad, or
> do you think that's okay? Simple question.
>
>> *AND THEN* you see nothing wrong with telling
>> Raney's son that his dad's time is bad *AND THEN* you post this in a
>> public forum...
>
> Gerry didn't say that and never implied it. Don't do that Jack. When
> you cite things he didn't say to argue with I'd call that disingenuous.
sheetsofsound
i didn't say gerry said and and didn't imply that. RB said it.
Gerry
>>>> *AND THEN* you see nothing wrong with telling
>>>> Raney's son that his dad's time is bad *AND THEN* you post this in a
>>>> public forum...
>>
>>> Gerry didn't say that and never implied it. Don't do that Jack. When
>>> you cite things he didn't say to argue with I'd call that disingenuous.
>
> i didn't say gerry said and and didn't imply that. RB said it.
You're slippery!
You said that I saw "nothing wrong with telling Raney's son his dad's
time is bad". I did not say or imply that.
--
-- Gerry
sheetsofsound
i thought you were defending that. What I said is if you saw nothing
wrong with saying that, not that you said it. Big difference. Anyway,
i'm done on this. It's a ridiculous thread as are most discussions
here...
Gerry
> On Feb 17, 1:14�pm, Gerry <addr...@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 2011-02-17 10:02:22 -0800, sheetsofsound said:
>>
>>>>>> *AND THEN* you see nothing wrong with telling
>>>>>> Raney's son that his dad's time is bad *AND THEN* you post this in a
>>>>>> public forum...
>>
>>>>> Gerry didn't say that and never implied it. �Don't do that Jack. �When
>>>>> you cite things he didn't say to argue with I'd call that disingenuous.
>>
>>> i didn't say gerry said and and didn't imply that. RB said it.
>>
>> You're slippery!
>>
>> You said that I saw "nothing wrong with telling Raney's son his dad's
>> time is bad". �I did not say or imply that.
>
> i thought you were defending that.
Certainly not.
> What I said is if you saw nothing wrong with saying that, not that you
> said it. Big difference. Anyway,
> i'm done on this. It's a ridiculous thread as are most discussions here...
Cool. For future reference, if at all possible, try to avoid discussing
the people rather than the topic. I know it's hard but this is the way
friendships are forged.
--
-- Gerry
sheetsofsound
take your own advice, bro!
Graham
Many years ago (1980s?) I remember there was a big article about
George Benson in a magazine (Sunday Times or similar) - I have no idea
why they featured GB so lavishly, but I cut out and kept the article
for ages (I probably only got rid of it a few years ago during a
general clear-out). I remember it had a great photo of GB sitting in
his sports car.
It was by some rock journalist as I recall, and he spent a day or two
in GB's company while they visited some New York jazz clubs. The one
thing I've always remembered from the article is that they went to a
club where Jimmy Raney was playing, and George said 'Jimmy Raney is my
god' - quote.
GB asked to sit in with Jimmy, and told the journo. what an honour
this was for him.
Quite an achievement wouldn't you say for a 'lame' guy with bad
'white' time?
Graham
Gerry
>> Cool. For future reference, if at all possible, try to avoid discussing
>> the people rather than the topic. I know it's hard but this is the way
>> friendships are forged.
>
> take your own advice, bro!
Jack, if I don't--please kick my ass and listen to my apology.
No charge.
--
-- Gerry
Gerry
The king has left the building.
RB was talking about a cut--one cut--not the man.
--
-- Gerry
sheetsofsound
fair 'nuff :)
van
It really doesn't matter if you bring up salient facts like this to
RB- facts don't matter to him.
He has actually stated that Kenny Burrell doesn't swing, has bad time,
and a horrible time feel.
Kenny Burrell! A Detroit musician who came up with Elvin, Hank and
Thad Jones!!!
With someone like that, all you can do is call him a fucking idiot and
watch him self-destruct like he's done time and time again. If someone
here doesn't stand up to him, then his little goons will jump in, and
before you know it, the entire history of jazz will be re-written in
RB's peculiar little take on it.
He winds up derailing a perfectly good discussion on CC and JR, just
to get his nonsense out.
And I hate to inform his apologist that he generally talks in blanket
terms, lumping Raney, Burrell, Farlow, etc... together as worthless
players who basically can't play.
I've learned the hard way not to put down ANY musicians who have paid
their dues and have done countless gigs in styles that I may or may
not like.
I simply say, "I don't like (whatever)."
Hopefully, he's still in his teens (which he certainly sounds like he
is) , because if he's over the age of 18, I feel sorry for him.
Chickenhead
It was a WONDERFUL sounding amp. Steve Vai borrowed it from me at Berklee
and offered to buy it around 1978. I finally sold it in the mid-80's. I
should have never sold it. Those four ten-inch Altec Lansing speakers
didn't seem to suffer from the brittleness that many other 10" speakers seem
to have. Don't know how easy it would be to find those 7027's though.
"Lord Valve" wrote in message news:4D59DCFF...@ssange.commie...
That's an Ampeg VT-40, later production. (Magnavox.)
60 watts from two 7027s, four tens, reverb.
LV
Graham
> The king has left the building.
>
> RB was talking about a cut--one cut--not the man.
Er - who's the 'king'? Certainly not RB I trust!
And he said 'There is the always "white" rhythmic sense' - that
'always' implies more than just this one track. And I'm sure he's
peddled the same old BS about Jimmy Raney before - life's too short to
go back and dig it up again.
In any case I think we are all tired of people dissing established
giants like Raney, Kessel, Burrell etc. and then being offensive about
it when anyone disagrees. It's completely pointless.
Graham
Gerry
> On Feb 17, 9:55 pm, Gerry <addr...@domain.com> wrote:
>> The king has left the building.
>>
>> RB was talking about a cut--one cut--not the man.
>
>
> Er - who's the 'king'? Certainly not RB I trust!
>
> And he said 'There is the always "white" rhythmic sense' - that
> 'always' implies more than just this one track. And I'm sure he's
> peddled the same old BS about Jimmy Raney before - life's too short to
> go back and dig it up again.
True, but digging it up one more time can't hurt, right?
> In any case I think we are all tired of people dissing established
> giants like Raney, Kessel, Burrell etc. and then being offensive about
> it when anyone disagrees. It's completely pointless.
I don't know. I think it's advantageous to me as a player and listener
to discuss guitarists, both their good parts and their bad parts in
whatever way we personally see them. I have this curious
invulnerability to listen to people disparage my heroes without feeling
I'm losing a part of my soul in the process. I feel I can "respect"
these people the gains of their careers, their good and bad choices in
life, repertoire, technique. They are abstractions to me.
Now lying about people or players I find onerous and I will undoubtedly
go mano-a-mano with the villains at hand.
I've talked to RB a number of times via Skype, he is a reasonable,
eloquent, intelligent and witty guy. And he tells a good story; always
critical. He's apparently also a piss-poor typist so none of that comes
across on usenet. Just as well, as he'd be throwing his time away the
way I do instead of tending do his career(s).
I agree with most of his assessments regarding players and approaches.
Raney is an exception, of suppose, though I don't think he has any
particular animosity about Raney. I didn't think much of Raney, or
Kessel or George Barnes or Eddie Lang or another 20 guitarists until
that time I realized the planets were in direct alignment with them, at
which point they became demi-gods and I began lighting votives at their
shrine.
While I am enamored and others denigrate them, I feel the need to
logically disprove them, and attempt to do that. I could, instead try
to villify them as people instead. I don't think that validates my
argument regarding the heroic qualities of the guitarist under
discussion though. So it doesn't do me any good.
I think people need to be educated and have their own tastes challenged
continuously. We had a good spate there with Adam Rogers when one
participant got turned around in his perspective. It would not have
happened, I assume, if he had kept his views to himself. Those views
would not have been challenged, he would not have re-investigated his
own thinking and found it wanting.
When I was coming up I had my idols, as did my confreres. But I tended
to rotate thorugh them. Jim Hall hung the moon, and then Pat Martino
supplanted his position as the focus of my absorption. But I know some
guys that didn't move on once they mistook the ticking of the clock for
the heart of their mother-duck. And frankly they became vastly better
at I being Jim Hall or Al DiMeola or whatever name they had tattoo'd on
their ass. Me I just memorized a few solos, tried to figure out a
technique and then forgot the whole mess.
Yeah, I began to disrespect these peers because they didn't continue to
learn and study music and styles and tunes, they only studied the one
human paradigm. As time went by, to validate this course of action,
they found it necessary to lambast those things that were not "of Jim",
whether it was solidbody guitars, whammy bars, compressors, and even
certain chord voicings. There guiding concept was "What would Jim do
here?"
Some here at rmmgj take the same course. Which ones they are, frankly,
I don't even know though I have guesses about a few. I am timid about
listening to other people's clips because I'm fearful I'll begin to
judge the humans by this week's perspective of this week's recording. I
assume participants consider me a folksy/bluesy guitarist because I
posted some videos of that stuff long ago. Or a nylon-head because I
posted some of those. I'd likely do the same thing; I'm only human. My
perceptions deceive me. Always and forever they will continue at that
task.
--
-- Gerry
thomas
I would actually like to hear Richard's opinion on Cal Collins.
Graham
clip of his playing from the internet (I actually wished to hear his
playing, with no axe to grind). Odd.
However while looking, I did find this rather unfortunate quote by him
on the allaboutjazz forum:
"It's actually because of players like KB (= Kenny Burrell) that the
gtr has a bad name. No time, no storytelling, no coherence, basically,
no adherence to standards that are automatically assumed for most
other instruments in jazz.
All due respect to KB as a predecessor and "spokesman" for jazz, and
for being by all accounts a great guy, but enough people are misled in
this stuff. I guarantee you, that if a piano player or horn player
came out and played like KB does, they would be laughed at."
On this occasion it seems he managed to piss Vic Juris off with this
statement.
I'm sure he's a great guy in real life, but posting remarks like these
gets him nowhere.
As Vic Juris said about RB on that discussion, "its less the fact that
you have controversial opinions I object to than your tone."
Graham
Gerry
> I did find this rather unfortunate quote by [Richard Bornman] on the
> allaboutjazz forum:
>
> "It's actually because of players like KB (= Kenny Burrell) that the
> gtr has a bad name. No time, no storytelling, no coherence, basically,
> no adherence to standards that are automatically assumed for most
> other instruments in jazz.
>
> All due respect to KB as a predecessor and "spokesman" for jazz, and
> for being by all accounts a great guy, but enough people are misled in
> this stuff. I guarantee you, that if a piano player or horn player
> came out and played like KB does, they would be laughed at."
>
> On this occasion it seems he managed to piss Vic Juris off with this
> statement.
>
> I'm sure he's a great guy in real life, but posting remarks like these
> gets him nowhere.
And so, I imagine, reposting here has a little more value?
> As Vic Juris said about RB on that discussion, "its less the fact that
> you have controversial opinions I object to than your tone."
Vic sure has a way with a line, whether in text or in music--Brief,
pithy: and in this case right on the money.
--
-- Gerry
Graham
> And so, I imagine, reposting here has a little more value?
You said he is reasonable, eloquent, intelligent and witty. That
quote showed why he is not perceived that way by many of us, which I
think has some value.
Actually I have located an example of RB's playing. I have a
recording of him playing 'Bluesette' with a trio - this was one of the
tracks that various RMMJG regulars made available about 10 years ago
(didn't Dick Onstenk host the tracks somewhere?), and I downloaded
some of them.
On the evidence of that recording, he is a very fine player and I
would like to hear more.
Graham
Gerry
> On Feb 18, 11:05 pm, Gerry <addr...@domain.com> wrote:
>> And so, I imagine, reposting here has a little more value?
>
> You said he is reasonable, eloquent, intelligent and witty.
Which I followed with: "He's apparently also a piss-poor typist so none
of that comes across on usenet."
> That quote showed why he is not perceived that way by many of us, which I
> think has some value.
Well let's repeat it all one more time for anyone who just got back
from lunch. :-) They might get confused that we've descended to talking
about Cal Collins like a bunch of dolts.
> Actually I have located an example of RB's playing. I have a
> recording of him playing 'Bluesette' with a trio - this was one of the
> tracks that various RMMJG regulars made available about 10 years ago
> (didn't Dick Onstenk host the tracks somewhere?), and I downloaded
> some of them.
>
> On the evidence of that recording, he is a very fine player and I
> would like to hear more.
Oh-oh! Now that you've stated a postive, we'll need to balance that
with a restatement of his inequities. I'm pooped. Van, can you field
this one?
--
-- Gerry
Graham
> Oh-oh! Now that you've stated a postive, we'll need to balance that
> with a restatement of his inequities.
OK - good player, bad typist.
pmfan57
Bill Evans liked to play with him (KB not RB). And even RB likes the
Live at the Vanguard trio record with Davis and Haynes.
Actually RB is a pretty amazing guitar player from having seen him
first hand, for a pretty long period of time, up close playing with
Dan Adler and Avi Rothbard, even if he is a bit of a nut in his Web
persona. (In real life he's a nice guy.)
pmfan57
He doesn't have that many good things to say about most of the
"famous" jazz guitarists, other than Wes, Grant Green, Joe Pass,
George Benson, Vic Juris, Pat Martino (and that's iffy sometimes with
RB), Lenny Breau, and a few others. I think he likes Shakti, but not
so much JM otherwise.
As you can tell by his posts he seems to like more modern guys like
Holdsworth, James Muller. I don't see why you have to choose. I love
Holdsworth and Raney (and Holdsworth loves Raney if anyone is
interested).
pmfan57
That was one of the cuts with Dan Adler and Avi Rothbard. With yours
truly on the video camera. I use a modal approach to the video camera.
Gerry
> Bill Evans liked to play with him (KB not RB).
Hmm. Did he ever hire Burrell to play a gig, or for a recording?
> And even RB likes the Live at the Vanguard trio record with Davis and Haynes.
Yeah me too. Both live Vanguard dates are masterful and on my short
list of Burrell I really like. Frankly there's not so much on that
list. He plays a lot of straight "jazz blues" lines that leave me
cold. More rootsy than exploratory.
Release the hounds.
> Actually RB is a pretty amazing guitar player from having seen him
> first hand, for a pretty long period of time, up close playing with
> Dan Adler and Avi Rothbard, even if he is a bit of a nut in his Web
> persona. (In real life he's a nice guy.)
There you go: It's a strange and beautiful world. Was he only using
nails then? He's all hung up on a thumb-pick now. I feel betrayed...
--
-- Gerry
thomas
Evans' Quintessence album features Burrell. Some cuts are youtubed.
Tim Berens
> This guy was a monster, with a great reputation for putting out
> excellent albums on the Concord label back in the 70s and early 80s.
> And now he appears to be mostly forgotten or unknown even among jazz
> guitar geeks.
Southern Ohioans will never forget Cal Collins or Kenny Poole.
Here is an interview Cal did for the Cincinnati Jazz Guitar Society
Newsletter:
http://timberens.com/interviews/collins.htm
And here is an interview that Kenny Poole did:
http://timberens.com/interviews/poole.htm
And here is an interview with another smoking hot Cincinnati
guitarist, Bob Roetker:
http://timberens.com/interviews/roetker.htm
And yet another great Cincinnati jazz guitarist, Wilbert Longmire:
http://timberens.com/interviews/longmire.htm
Cal Collins attributed the oddly large number of great jazz guitarists
who live in Cincinnati to "catfish pee from the Ohio river." He had
a way with words.
Gerry
> On Feb 19, 1:19 am, Gerry <addr...@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 2011-02-18 16:38:59 -0800, pmfan57 said:
>>
>>> Bill Evans liked to play with him (KB not RB).
>>
>> Hmm. Did he ever hire Burrell to play a gig, or for a recording?
>
> Evans' Quintessence album features Burrell. Some cuts are youtubed.
Duly noted. A hole in both my Evans and Burrell collections.
--
-- Gerry
Gerry
> Cal Collins attributed the oddly large number of great jazz guitarists
> who live in Cincinnati to "catfish pee from the Ohio river." He had
> a way with words.
Say, isn't Maj6 from Ohio...?
--
-- Gerry
Paul Mitchell Brown
I was surprised to come across this Pat Metheny quote last night while
leafing through Joe Barth's book 'Voices in Jazz Guitar'. Pat was
asked about the three jazz guitar albums that had the greatest
influence on his development. After listing two Wes records, he
mentions: "A Kenny Burrell record called 'Blues - The Common
Ground' ... There is something about the way that Kenny plays with the
rhythm section on that record, where he places the beat in the time
that I really love, and I love his sound too".
van
> On Feb 18, 11:10 pm, Paul Mitchell Brown <paulmitchellbr...@gmail.com>
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I think RB's central point is that horn players are better jazz
improvisers than guitarists, and that guitarists that can't imitate
horn players, suck.
The strange thing there is that Raney's entire conception was from his
years with Stan Getz, and his greatest legacy has been his
codification of Charlie Parker's style on to the guitar.
But I'm sure his Defence Attorney, Mr. Gerry will come up with a
snappy little rejoinder to explain why my last comment, Pat Metheny"s
"testimony" that Kenny Burrell's LP Blues The Common Ground was one of
the 3 most important influences on his playing, Vic Juris' objections
to him, Jon Raney's condemnation of him, The Gear Page's recent
suspension of him from being able to post there anymore, have no
relevance to the case at hand.
But wait, the Judge is about to render his decision!
Let's listen to him:
"I hereby find the defendant, RB, Not Guilty on all charges!
He's a really fine player, an excellent conversationalist, and just an
all round nice guy!
Now please vacate the courtroom!"
Well, there you have it- RB has been exonerated of all charges!
Well, I don't know about you, but I'm going home to break the 3 or 400
jazz records Kenny Burrell has played on, and then I'll tear into that
white boy Jimmy Raney's records, and if I have time I'll lace into all
the other worthless players'
recordings also- Tal Farlow, Lenny Breau, etc...If RB says they suck,
then they must suck!
Good Night!
RB
> I would actually like to hear Richard's opinion on Cal Collins.
Hey Thom,
I checked out that clip of Cal w/ Goodman. He sounded absolutely
FANTASTIC!!! Great sound and feel and decent time...Raney should have
learnt something from Cal about getting some blues time into his
playing....
Bg
> Ground' ... There is something about the way that Kenny plays with the
> rhythm section on that record, where he places the beat in the time
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yeah I haft dig out that one and have a listen agin, it's on Vinyl.
One thing I lile about Kenny's playing is that he'll often solo or
play melody down on the lower strings rather than on the upper 3 o4
all the time.
I've trying to throw that into my playing a litlle more often lately,
it's something I never really thought about before, but it can sound
really nice down there.
Bg
RB
wrote:
Hi Paul,
I know this quote very well, and some others from Pat Metheny, Benson
and the whole gang.
What can I say? Their ears and musicianship is more than I can dream
of knowing, so all I am left w/ is my piss poor opinion on stuff.
Which I occasionally air....and then the place erupts...All I can say
is that I hear not a TRACE of Burrell in Metheny or Benson. I hear not
a TRACE of Raney in them either....All I hear in Metheny is a distant
echo of Wes, maybe something from Diorio but mostly himself. In GB all
I hear is Grant Green, Wes, when he uses his thumb and in some chords
and lines and maybe Farlow and Django in the extreme register
changes.....
And once again, an adult has to be pretty damn gullible and naive to
believe that prominent musicians explicate all their private thoughts
on musicians that they probably are/were friends with, in public. The
truth is in the music, and there is zero of those guys audible in
their playing, no matter what they said in public.
RB
Also anybody who cant hear what I am talking about has NO ears. This
stuff is like listening 101. Whether somebody THEN still likes it, is
another thing. Most of the cats here hitting back at me cant actually
hear, so no wonder they cant play and no wonder they keep trying to
defend their pathetic position by referring to other musicians.
If I am wrong, show me the mins/secs on a clip and I will gladly
recant. But they wont be able to find 'em. It's pathetic
RB
> I think RB's central point is that horn players are better jazz
> improvisers than guitarists, and that guitarists that can't imitate
> horn players, suck.
Not sure about that actually....undecided. one thing is definitely
certain, gtr has lagged behind in the evolution of jazz. It has taken
until the advent of fusion for the gtr to begin to assume an
influential role in jazz, and it has taken until the contemporary
scene for gtrists to begin to have a shaping influence on "orthodox"
jazz....ie Rosenwinkel, Frisell, Metheny, Holdsworth etc. These
musicians are now exerting an influence across the whole of jazz,
regardless of instrument. This fact ALONE demonstrates that there has
been a maturation in playing the instrument which wasn't there when
Raney and the guys were running around. That's a fact. It is self-
evident.
So a decent musician learns from that and looks at what has changed to
make this so....
> The strange thing there is that Raney's entire conception was from his
> years with Stan Getz, and his greatest legacy has been his
> codification of Charlie Parker's style on to the guitar.
Yeah, but it hardly sounds like Bird at all. Sure he was one of the
first to use the slurs and try to play over the barlines, but it
hardly was a compelling statement. Which is why the younger generation
has no trace of Raney in there really, honestly. History speaks louder
than anybody's opinion. Also, that music is like 60 years old now, and
yet I KNOW it is still your little persoanl "litmus test" for jazz
guitar "goodness"....Which is amusing.
> But I'm sure his Defence Attorney, Mr. Gerry will come up with a
> snappy little rejoinder to explain why my last comment, Pat Metheny"s
> "testimony" that Kenny Burrell's LP Blues The Common Ground was one of
> the 3 most important influences on his playing, Vic Juris' objections
> to him, Jon Raney's condemnation of him, The Gear Page's recent
> suspension of him from being able to post there anymore, have no
> relevance to the case at hand.
No they do have relevance. I respect Juris and Metheny and probably
hundreds of other guys who probably cite Raney as an influence. It
still counts for sh!t when you realize that none of them have any
audible trace of him in their playing....It's a sentimental
thing.....Regarding TGP, are you so obtuse???? It's actually a badge
of honor to be banned from that place. "Fitting right in" with a
decent portion of that crowd is definitely not something I would be
proud of....after all gear means nothing to me...
Paul Mitchell Brown
Hi Richard,
I agree that there's seems to be little of Burrell that's obviously in
Metheny's playing but PM surely digs KB. It would be different if the
interviewer had asked Metheny what he thought of Burrell but this
wasn't a prompted response. BTW, I didn't drag this up to hit back at
you (I know that away from this place you're a good dude and great
musician and you know I have good ears!) but simply to ruminate on the
fact that these things aren't absolutes. I'm not using Metheny as an
alibi, just noting that he hears something in KB's time feel, at least
on that recording, that you're maybe not listening for. Take another
listen to Rosenwinkel's first albums and Farlow's influence is all
over them. He worked through that to find his own voice so it's no
longer as obvious. Now, sure there are plenty of Tal performances that
are pretty loose rhythmically but I imagine Kurt got off on Tal's
spirit, imagination and willingness to go out on a limb. By the same
token, Muddy Waters didn't play 'in tune' but he still sends chills
down my spine.
RB
Paul, I hear you clearly. Can you name me some tracks from Rosenwinkel
where he has that Farlow thing you mention, please?
RB
Also, don't forget a master like Jimmy Smith LOVED KB. I clearly am
not hearing something there, or more likely I am missing something
there because I get distracted by the things I dislike....my loss I
guess!
Paul Mitchell Brown
Sure. Try 'Segment' from 'Intuit'. He even gets that chiming semi-
harmonic thing going around 1'50" and again around 4'15", a signature
of Tal's. He's too good a musician to copy verbatim but it's all
there. For what it's worth, Kurt's cites both Tal and George Van Eps
as important to his development in interviews but it's not too hard to
spot the influence without reading about it.
RB
> Sure. Try 'Segment' from 'Intuit'. He even gets that chiming semi-
> harmonic thing going around 1'50" and again around 4'15", a signature
> of Tal's. He's too good a musician to copy verbatim but it's all
> there. For what it's worth, Kurt's cites both Tal and George Van Eps
> as important to his development in interviews but it's not too hard to
> spot the influence without reading about it.
I know that record reasonably well...I must say it's my least fave KR
record, and interestingly on Segment, his time is pretty iffy, maybe
he was channeling too much Tal ;-)...And I can honestly say I don't
hear Farlow on the Next Step...Also, when I chatted w/ him a few years
back he went on and on about Eubanks' "Opening Night" recording....I
hear ZERO Eubanks in Kurt....So what do we make of this.....
Paul Mitchell Brown
That he wouldn't have made "The Next Step" without that first one
(sorry, couldn't resist). Just because something isn't apparent on the
skin of the music doesn't mean that it hasn't left a mark somewhere.
RB
> That he wouldn't have made "The Next Step" without that first one
> (sorry, couldn't resist). Just because something isn't apparent on the
> skin of the music doesn't mean that it hasn't left a mark somewhere.
True, but I "aint" a religious man, my dear PMB. I don't really sit
well w/ all that mumbo jumbo about "inaudible influences"...Too much
faith is needed for that enterprise, and my skeptical core sneers
easily....Yes influences may direct our efforts at various times, but
they are also deliberately cast off and eschewed too. I daresay the
desire to "rid" can be more compelling than the effort to
"assimilate"....Now, how many times have you ever read about how a
musician might have frantically "back pedalled" out of an influence
that they had a love affair with, huh?
Yes, the plot thickens
Bg
playing.
Most players have tons of influences, they can't All be manifested in
their playing, unless they are only Copying Licks or a Sound.
One must get past that stage to go on to becoming an individual
player.
I play like crap, but Oscar Peterson was big influence, but you'll
never likely hear that, but only the Guitaristic influences(Guitarsms)
of maybe Grant or Joe Pass, because of maybe similar sounds. Ed
Bickert and Lenny Breau were Huge influences in my forming years, yet
you won't hear those in my playing unless I happen to be playing a
Solidbody guitar such as in a Bigband situation which is the only time
I use it.
Those influences are Always with me, but you wouldn't likely hear
them.
Bg