Raney and Farlow w/Norvo
sgcim
Norvo Trio because I had heard one cut and I didn't like the way it
sounded, but yesterday I lucked out and found a CD of the double album
that featured both guitarists with the Norvo trio at a local library.
Raney is featured on the first fifteen cuts and Farlow on 16 through
19.
The cuts with Raney were a lot better than I thought they'd be.
Norvo actually plays with some sensitivity rather than his usual
banging the shit out of the vibes style and sounds less stiff here
than he usually sounds.
There are some times when he bangs the melody out in chords when
Raney is soloing, which gives the effect of the guitar just sounding
like it's just playing obligato figures instead of a solo, but this
only happens on a few tunes.
For the most part, Raney gets off some very nice solos that sound
typical of his Bird-phase during this period of time (1953).
The arrangements were pretty complicated considering they were never
written out, and at one point they do a Q&A section with Raney playing
16th notes using palm muting in unison with Mitchell playing arco.
Raney even got Norvo to do more modern sounding material, like his
"Signal" and Hall Overton's "J9 Hate K9".
The liner notes said that they wanted to get Joe Pass when Farlow
left the trio, but Tal referred Raney. I didn't know Pass was on the
scene that early.
The Farlow cuts are much stronger than the Raney cuts because
Farlow was a stronger player when his cuts were recorded (1955), and I
still have yet to hear anyone play bop better than Farlow from this
period.
The liner notes attribute this to Farlow's designing himself a 3/4
size neck on a full-sized guitar, resulting in a looser string tension
and easier finger stretches.
Later on though,(post-1960s) Tal's playing got much weaker, time and
execution-wise, and Raney got rid of his eighth note and triplet Bird
cliches phase and went on to become the greatest bop improviser in
guitar (and maybe jazz) history.
Dan Adler
> Later on though,(post-1960s) Tal's playing got much weaker, time and
> execution-wise, and Raney got rid of his eighth note and triplet Bird
> cliches phase and went on to become the greatest bop improviser in
> guitar (and maybe jazz) history.
I agree with most of what you said, except the end part. I don't think
Raney ever had enough fire in his playing to be considered the
greatest. He was a great improviser to be sure, note-wise, and his
lines were maybe the most musical and sophisticated, but his execution
was so lifeless and boring that I find it hard to listen to more than
one or two cuts. I'll take early Tal over Raney any day. What would
you say is the definitive Raney album that would change my perception
of him?
Gerry
<d...@danadler.com> wrote:
Funny you should respond to this, passage, I was going to as well, but
with a "right on, bro!" response. I've was listening again to various
Raney sides just yesterday (including some work with Norvo). To my
tastes it's a close call on the greatest bop guitarist, but he wins.
But who else qualifies? Farlow is the only name to mind. I've never
heard Mundell Lowe, Sal Salvador or Billy Bauer show superior skills.
And sadly they have but comparatively fewer recorded opportunities.
Kessel is in there but...Raney's the man.
I was listening to his work with Stan Getz on the Roost sides. There
is nothing there but fire. Rubberneck was one I was marveling at
earlier in the day. I think I'll have transcribe it so I can figure out
what the hell he's doing. I'm unsure on the audio if it was taped live
from a stage or not, as it's kinda crummy. I wondered if he would have
played with such reckless abandon if he had known it would live so much
longer than him.
I'd suggest the Getz/Raney sides if you can find them. The Live in
Tokyo is another personal favorite.
--
First they gerrymander us into one-party fiefs. Then they tell us they only
care about the swing districts. Then they complain about voter apathy.
-- Gail Collins
sgcim
I have to agree with the artist formerly known as "Nazodesu" and add
"Jimmy Raney in Three Attitudes"on Probe, "Strings and Swings" on Muse
and most of the things he did in the 70s, 80s and 90s on Crisscross
except for "The Master", which was a total abortion.
However, Raney did have a tendency to sound kind of dull on
medium, medium slow and slow tempo things because of his tendency to
not play anything forced sounding at any tempo, so if you want to hear
more exciting solos, listen to the up tempo solos on those albums and
then try to improvise at those tempos yourself.
He also sounded more exciting live than in the studios sometimes. I
saw him live once and his solo on an up tempo "Lover, Come Back To Me"
still stands as the most exciting solo I've ever heard, period.
Gerry
<sg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I have to agree with the artist formerly known as "Nazodesu" and add
> "Jimmy Raney in Three Attitudes"on Probe, "Strings and Swings" on Muse
> and most of the things he did in the 70s, 80s and 90s on Crisscross
> except for "The Master", which was a total abortion.
Well it's been a good 8 months, I guess I'll go looking for the lost
50's sides I don't have yet again. What's your complaint with Master?
Frankly I find almost all his straight-out overdub things kind of
soul-less somehow. I'm not sure why. Where he does this on the Master
I'm disinterested, otherwise I like the side. What's your complaint
with this recording?
> However, Raney did have a tendency to sound kind of dull on
> medium, medium slow and slow tempo things because of his tendency to
> not play anything forced sounding at any tempo, so if you want to hear
> more exciting solos, listen to the up tempo solos on those albums and
> then try to improvise at those tempos yourself.
Well, it's true the languid pieces are more languid and less
thrill-seeking stuff. I've never really separated his "voice" between
ballads and bop, but it's a worthwhile thing to ponder.
> He also sounded more exciting live than in the studios sometimes. I
> saw him live once and his solo on an up tempo "Lover, Come Back To Me"
> still stands as the most exciting solo I've ever heard, period.
One of my fondents memories is during a snowstorm in Chicago, Jimmy and
I were unable to leave the hotel so we stayed up all night long just
playing standards in the hotel room. But at that point in the dream I
always wake up...
Richard Bornman
paul
<richard...@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
>If you're talking bebop, Billy Bean blows them all away for my taste!!
>
I was going to post exactly the same thing.
--paul
Max Smith
> What would
> you say is the definitive Raney album that would change my perception
> of him?
>
I like "Live in Tokyo" and "The Influence". GBD trio on both, nice tones
and lines.
Max S.
Dan Adler
Dull is the operative word. He also has this kind of bored-with-life
look in all the pictures I've seen of him, and his son Doug has an
even more blank stare. I hear that in their music. No emotional
investment in what they are playing. Great notes, intellectually
thrilling lines, but no emotion.
Gerry
<d...@danadler.com> wrote:
> > However, Raney did have a tendency to sound kind of dull
>
> Dull is the operative word. He also has this kind of bored-with-life
> look in all the pictures I've seen of him, and his son Doug has an
> even more blank stare. I hear that in their music. No emotional
> investment in what they are playing. Great notes, intellectually
> thrilling lines, but no emotion.
Maybe I don't spend enough time looking at their pictures, they don't
sound "dull" "lifeless" or "bored" when I listen to them. And in
fairness the "kind of dull" reference was to slow tempo, pieces, not
his recording career.
You do have me killfiled, don't you?
Gerry
Bornman <richard...@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
> If you're talking bebop, Billy Bean blows them all away for my taste!
I might agree with you if I'd ever HEARD any Billy Bean! It's tough
enough to find Raney.
Holger Weber
"paul" <pcsanwa...@pobox.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:cjg0vvk3gbvm4qgrc...@4ax.com...
-Freeman disclaimer applies-
I think as professional guitarists we should do better at examining a player
than just thowing in a few cliches. "Blows them away", "Kindergarten", or
"He looks bored" are just not good enough IMO. Check out Bean's version of
"You Stepped Out Of A Dream" and compare it with Raney's "Motion" You'll
hear that Bean has listened closely to Raney. Beans technical facility is
amazing but harmonically Raney is much more sophisticated whereas Bean has a
pretty pedestrian concept (like Pat Martino in a way) Both have strong and
weak moments. Same with Stan Getz. His time on the Storyville recordings is
less than perfect in many spots, you'll hear him rush quite a bit on
occasions. He also plays some pretty corny stuff at times, like on the start
of the 3rd chorus of "Parker 51" and his blues licks sound very forced.
BTW It's funny enough that Grant Green copied Jimmy Raney solos from the
late 40s and early 50s and Benson started out as a Grant Green clone, so
there is a direct line ;)
Holger
Keith Freeman
> you say is the definitive Raney album that would change my perception
> of him?
Byootiful!
-Keith
Music samples, tips, Portable Changes at
http://home.wanadoo.nl/keith.freeman/
E-mail: keith dot freeman at wanadoo dot nl
Keith Freeman
> late 40s and early 50s and Benson started out as a Grant Green clone
To me Grant - while he has great vibe and rhythmic feel - often sounds
like Wes without the chops (and with too much reliance on stock phrases).
His guitar is often out of tune, too. Then the other day I was listening
to Jimmy Smith's Christmas Cookin' w. Kenny Burrell and after one track I
thought to myself, 'That's not Kenny. It's a thinner sound and it's out
of tune. I bet it's Grant.' Turned out to be Wes! ;-}
Max Smith
On several tracks, he plays with himself (in the multi-track sense) - can't
be certain of his facial expression on those cuts...
Listened again to the two I mentioned below - I was right, they are good,
and I'll add that the chordal playing is also very nice on those.
Max S.
"Max Smith" <sixstr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:EsXHb.4272$2i....@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com...
sgcim
I don't understand what the big deal about Billy Bean is. I bought
"The Trio" and was more interested in Walter Norris' playing than his.
I also bought one of the "Makin' It" LPs and didn't hear anything
special there either, or his Charlie Ventura sides.
He's got good chops, but other than that, he doesn't have the
imagination that Raney and Farlow had. While he is an excellent
player, he sounds "dull" compared to those two.
Doug Raney is supposedly a junkie, and his dad was an alcoholic, so
that might account for their "dull" faces.
I worked with a vibes player, Vera Auer, who said that Jimmy Raney
kicked heroin at her house in Europe. Amazingly, she said he could
still play great even when going cold turkey!
Raney's reputation among non-guitar playing jazz musicians is
phenomenal. I just played with Aaron Sachs last week and he still
raves about Raney, who played on Sachs' first album.
Charlie Mingus named him as his favorite jazz guitarist.
Byron Atkins
> sg...@hotmail.com (sgcim) wrote in message news:<7318994a.03122...@posting.google.com>...
> > However, Raney did have a tendency to sound kind of dull
>
> Dull is the operative word. He also has this kind of bored-with-life
> look in all the pictures I've seen of him, and his son Doug has an
> even more blank stare.
It may be dull to you but it's the essence of the cool school. The
Raneys are not exactly like pop entertainment. Attacking them for
looking bored and sounding boring seems a bit callous. It a sad day
when I have to post and post to defend a style I admire. I can also
admire Joe Pass, Dan, but his style gets a little old also. Jimmy was
playing better than anyone (on guitar) in the 80s. I heard him live
several times but I also hear it on "In Good Company," with Ted Brown,
on "Momentum," on MPS, on "But Beautiful," on Criss Cross. As for the
older albums, "A," Jimmy Raney Visits Paris, In Three Attitudes, Two
Jims and Zoot, Jimmy Raney and Kenny Burrell "Two Guitars." Wes listed
Jimmy as a favorite, Kenny Burrell spoke highly of him too. Tal always
mentioned Jimmy as a favorite, Jim Hall too (maybe Jim looks and
sounds too boring for you also!). All of this wasn't by accident!
As for Doug, his recorded output is less consistant in terms of
brillance but try his first record, Introducing Doug Raney (made when
he was 21), also try Raney 96 (if that's dull to you and lacks fire
then I'm clueless as what to suggest), also try "Back in New York,"
and "Guitar,guitar,Guitar." All of these are on Steeplechase, a Danish
label. It's a different school of guitar playing, but it's no less
relevant than Joe Pass. IMHO.
Byron
sgcim
Gerry-
Scott came up with the answer to the problems with "The Master", and
it makes a lot of sense.
The rhythm section just didn't jibe with Raney's time conception, and
he just goes nowhere with it.
I haven't listened to it in years, but I hated it when I bought it.
Maybe time has improved it, although this happens very rarely.
Greg clayton
Lightsey [who was awesome with Dexter Gordon] who doesn't fit well with
Jimmy .
gc
--
....................................................................
visit www.GregClayton.com the website of Jazz Guitarist Greg Clayton
"Keith Freeman" <dont.use.t...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9460BC57E...@194.134.2.2...
paul
>
>I don't understand what the big deal about Billy Bean is.
bean's time feel, articulation, and touch are to me unsurpassed. one
of my favorite bean tracks is "Room 608".
--paul
Tony DeCaprio
sg...@hotmail.com (sgcim) wrote in message news:<7318994a.03122...@posting.google.com>...
skrohn
Yesterday I was speaking to a friend who asked me the
same question. I usually agree with him.
He said to listen again, and that he was diggin it lately.
So, I listened to a few cuts this morning and did not find
them as objectionable as I had remembered.
I will continue to re-assess.
I'll also listen to Wisteria again.
I could never get with that one either.
sg...@hotmail.com (sgcim) wrote in message news:<7318994a.03122...@posting.google.com>...
paul
wrote:
>
>I think as professional guitarists we should do better at examining a player
>than just thowing in a few cliches.
good point, holger. to me, momentum in time feel and phrasing are
really important, so important that I have a hard time getting really
excited about a player that (IMHO) doesn't posess these qualities.
as a student of the guitar, I think jimmy raney is a genius. but I
don't listen to his playing and get the sense of tremendous excitement
I get when I listen to billy bean. it's a very visceral thing that is
somewhat hard to put into words. but to me, the forward motion of
bean's playing just makes him more fun to listen to. I get the same
feeling from tony rice.
--paul
Gerry
<skr...@optonline.net> wrote:
> It's funny that this comes up now. Yesterday I was speaking to a
> friend who asked me the same question. I usually agree with him. He
> said to listen again, and that he was diggin it lately. So, I
> listened to a few cuts this morning and did not find them as
> objectionable as I had remembered. I will continue to re-assess.
Well It's been a while for me too. I guess I should listen to it anew,
maybe I'll think it sucks...
> I'll also listen to Wisteria again. I could never get with that one
> either.
Oh please do, I think he has some real moments in there.
I think Raney tends to play "the day". I know there are lines and
motifs and approaches that we hear from him frequently, but by and
large I find his playing delightfully unpredictable. Mostly this is a
rhythmic sense and the it cues, in my philosophy du jour, off of when
he STARTS the phrase. On Tokyo and another side I remember listening
to many sequential phrases and every OTHER one of them started off beat
while the others started on the down beat of a phrase. It just didn't
seem to be happinstance.
Also in analyzing the material I'll find a really curious line and when
I play it it sounds almost mundane. It's only when start on the 3 or
the 2 or on an off-beat or whatever that it really gets Raney-esque.
Anyway I think all of his records seem to have on and off moments,
because he's just not canned and he's always *trying* to accomplish
something new, not something that "sounds good".
Just my take.
Gerry
DeCaprio <coas...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> RANEY!!!
That's the kind of purity of thought I strive for every day. And fail
most every time.
Greg clayton
--
....................................................................
visit www.GregClayton.com the website of Jazz Guitarist Greg Clayton
"Tony DeCaprio" <coas...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b38d2f42.03122...@posting.google.com...
sgcim
Yeah, that's more or less what I meant- incompatibility.
John Galich
"sgcim" <sg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7318994a.03122...@posting.google.com...
Hi...and catching up after the holidays, here...it's been interesting
reading the threads on Raney, who is among my top 3 favorite players. One
thing to keep in mind relative to his last recordings (done for
CrissCross)...he suffered from Meniere's Disease, the symptoms of which
include vertigo, hearing loss, tinnitus and ear pressure (my brother-in-law
has this). This probably affected his playing and sense of time. In fact, I
remember an article or interview in one of the Chicago newspapers (during
one of his last visits there) where he said that some days his hearing was
perfectly fine and other days he played the guitar from sight.
John Galich
Seth Greenberg
they were both heavily influenced by Charlie Parker. Billy didn't listen
much to guitar players at all with the exception of Django. In fact, Billy
could play all of Bird's solos note-for-note at tempo, although he doesn't
sound like he is copying Bird precisely when he plays. Billy is quoted as
saying that when he played he thought about Bird.
The reason Raney is more harmonically sophisticated is more than likely
due to Billy not being interested in the guitar as a harmonic instrument.
It is without question that Jimmy Raney and Billy Bean were exceptional
players. Whether a person favors one over the other is an issue of taste.
Personally, I prefer Billy's feel, articulation and lines.
Seth
pmfan57
> RANEY!!!
>
The best bebop player of the fifties (more accurately, the bebop era)
IMO was in jail during the fifties and didn't record then: Joe Pass.
He did his great "fifties style" bebop playing in the early sixties
once he got out of rehab. Reports are that Pass was at his "For
Django" (and Catch Me) level by as early as the late forties, which
would have qualified him to have replaced Farlow in Red Norvo's trio.
As far as equalling Pass's technical skill as a guitarist in the
single line category, only Bean, early Farlow and Hank Garland among
his rough contemporaries are at a similar level. (Farlow's chops came
and went, but his Verve stuff, for the most part, is pretty awesome.)
As for the linear improvising skill, I would say the closest of that
era to Pass in ideational flow were Bean, Raney, Farlow and Wes.
Putting the scores together, Pass wins the gold medal.
I think Joe is often overlooked as a single line player because of his
later work as a solo act. However, nobody has played bebop guitar
better than Pacific jazz era Joe Pass, IMO. If Mosaic had just
included Simplicity and Stones Jazz, they would have had the perfect
set (oh yeah, and get rid of "12 string guitar")
Grant Green was influenced by Raney and sounds kind of like Raney on
his Standards album, and really whenever he played "lines" over
changes, rather than bluesify the changes (which I love also by the
way. I can listen to Grant Green all day). It's strange, but I think
Green, when he plays most like Raney, sounds like LATER Raney, well
before Raney sounded like later Raney!
Richard Bornman
"pmfan57" <jwra...@aol.com> wrote:
> Grant Green was influenced by Raney and sounds kind of like Raney on
> his Standards album, and really whenever he played "lines" over
> changes, rather than bluesify the changes (which I love also by the
> way. I can listen to Grant Green all day). It's strange, but I think
> Green, when he plays most like Raney, sounds like LATER Raney, well
> before Raney sounded like later Raney!
Mind if i ask where you heard/read that Green was influenced by Raney?
I hear no Raney influence in Green, but rather blues and Bird.
Green has that relaxed timefeel that Raney never had...
Holger Weber
"Richard Bornman" <richard...@ozemail.com.au> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:bt29sn$2jbe1$1...@ID-173106.news.uni-berlin.de...
Grant himself mentioned it. Check your ears ;)
sgcim
While everyone agrees that Pass was a great guitarist, I still have
some problems with calling him the best example of bebop on the
guitar.
Even his early stuff has that same Swing Era, Django Reinhardt
rhythmic approach, rather than Raney or Farlow's more authentic Bud
Powell/Bird rhythmic approach to playing bop lines.
Pass' lines are definitely bop lines, but the rhythmic conception is
not the same as the Bird/Powell school. There is the possibility that
Pass' use of the
Gypsy style of picking and concentrating on Django rather than Bird,
contributed to this.
I even mentioned this to Farlow once and he agreed.
Barry Harris, someone who really knows the bop style, thought of Raney
as being the best example of Bird on the guitar.
Gerry
<sg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Even his early stuff has that same Swing Era, Django Reinhardt
> rhythmic approach, rather than Raney or Farlow's more authentic Bud
> Powell/Bird rhythmic approach to playing bop lines. Pass' lines are
> definitely bop lines, but the rhythmic conception is not the same as
> the Bird/Powell school.
Pass was clearly a brilliant guitarist in many ways. Historically
he'll be greatly regarded till forever. His recorded legacy is
stunning, having myriad works with the greates names in jazz during the
last half of his career concluding with spearheading the solo jazz
guitar niche.
Having hopefully assuaged whichever Pass acolytes haven't killfiled me,
I think it is indeed his rhythmic conception that I find wanting. In
vague terms, Pass tends to longer lines of unbroken eighths, and his
accents aren't as displaced or as dramatic as Raney. Rather than this
being a bad-rap of Pass, which it is not, it's a way of comparing why
it is that Raney usually moves me and Pass does less frequently.
Incidentally, though I think I exhausted others more than anything
else, I think I actually managed to say how I felt about the "guitar
can't play *real* bop" topic. Expect no more than cut and pastes on
that topic in the future.
And breathe a sigh of relief.
Max Smith
Jimmy Raney was really good.
Joe Pass was really good.
Some days I wanna hear Raney; other days I wanna hear Pass - other days
it's someone else (Green, Burrell, Montgomery, Hall, etc.)
Max S.
Gerry
Smith <sixstr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
What a curious and unusual perspective!
Byron Atkins
> I think it is indeed his rhythmic conception that I find wanting.
To my ears "Catch Me," "For Django," and "Sounds of Synanon," are
Pass's best albums (for single note soloing at least) and also his
earliest. He does deserve credit for bringing solo jazz guitar to the
forefront. Though he made other very nice albums afterwards
(Intercontinental, Tudo Bem, and others) I never thought he really had
the creative spark or total inventiveness that he had on those earlier
recordings. I enjoy many of his later recordings (also some of the
solo ones) but the earlier ones do it for me. Many of the recordings
he made for Norman Grantz on Pablo seemed to have a mainstream
sameness or lack of design or plan about them. This wasn't Joe's fault
because Grantz wanted him to make certain records with certain people
and paid him well for it. Exceptional renumeration($$$) is better than
artistic scuffling. I'm glad Joe made some change playing jazz, too
bad that at the end of his life he had to sell his guitars! To get
back to the subject, Joe's phrasing is different than Raney's.
Byron
pmfan57
I think this post makes a lot of sense and also sums up the way I feel.
Max Leggett
Yes, but this sort of intelligent comment, making, as it does, perfect
sense, denies the whole validity of usenet. How can you call someone a
pimple-headed twerp for preferring Raney over Pass when you first
acknowledge that both are brilliant and they don't sound alike? The
whole purpose of usenet is to allow one to be gratuitously obnoxious
from the utter safety of hiding behind a computer screen, and not only
that, but you simultaneously get to pose as being better informed and
more sophisticated than some twerp-festering nahtsie paedophile who
likes Metheney more than Benson. I think it behooves us all to bow to
the timeless conventions of usenet and simply blather posturing
nonsense than it is to be sensible or - heaven forfend! - reasonable.
Have you no respect for tradition, you nahtsie paedophile??? Answer
me!!! :-)
Max Smith
Uh, sorry, I'm new here, uh...
JOE PASS RULZ!!!!
JIMMY RAINY SUX!!
IF U LIKE RAINY U SUK 2!!!!!
uh, how's that?
Max S.
(I know, I know, I'm still working on a concise signature that conveys
my importance and authority while simultaneously displaying my wisdom
via a pithy quote from a revered dead person.)
Max Leggett
That's much better. See that you maintain this kind of standard.
>(I know, I know, I'm still working on a concise signature that conveys
>my importance and authority while simultaneously displaying my wisdom
>via a pithy quote from a revered dead person.)
Allow me to be of assistance:
The public, the public. How many fools does it take to make a public?
Chamfort [1741-1794]
I trust I have been of assistance in educating you in the niceties of
usenet.
Max Smith
>
> Allow me to be of assistance:
>
> The public, the public. How many fools does it take to make a public?
> Chamfort [1741-1794]
ooooooh! that's a nice one!
>
> I trust I have been of assistance in educating you in the niceties of
> usenet.
>
>
Thanks so much for lending a hand to another "Max", Max.
Max S.
skrohn
While I point to Raney as my favorite, I could
spend a week with nothing but Hall or nothing but Pass etc.
Max Smith <sixstr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:<QpkJb.129$aA3.79...@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com>...
sgcim
One thing about Raney that literally separates him from almost every
other player is that he never uses the blues scale or play blues licks
involving the blues scale.
I think this might subconsciously turn some people off to him.
Max Smith
>
> One thing about Raney that literally separates him from almost every
> other player is that he never uses the blues scale or play blues licks
> involving the blues scale.
Wow - I never really noticed this, but I went to a couple of albums of
Raney's and it seems you're right.
Your observation is even more interesting in that many consider Raney
the best at applying bop phrasing to the guitar and Charlie Parker
played blues licks all over the place. I wonder why he would opt not to
use them.
This brings to mind a quote from Eddie Van Halen when asked why he
doesn't play many blues licks - he said "I don't play the blues because
I don't have the blues"
Max
Tony DeCaprio
scale" like certain other jazz players in his day. Jimmy played blues
licks. I have played the Blues, personally, with Jimmy. He played
blues licks(usually at the ends of the choruses), as Bird did in what
would appear to be in "all the right places". He did not overwhelm you
with blues licks. You may say the same about Farlow, for example,
although Tal used a bit more than Jimmy. When Jimmy (and Tal) played
the Blues (check out Jimmy with Billie Holiday, he would knock you
out. As far as licks, it is certain that he used them sparingly. He
was a deep player. Some listeners prefer a more lick oriented style.
As far as his playing like Bird, this is true, however this likeness
is more akin to the over all architecture of his lines, which often
began in the middle and end of the bar and sometimes overlapped into
the subsequent bar. Like a horn player, he would wait at times
(hesitate) within his lines, because he was listening to what was
listening always. Some players did not listen as keenly amidst
blowing.
Another interesting distinction is his unique usage of the dotted
eighth rhythmic figure within his lines. There was "a feel" within
that dotted eighth feel an I believe none of his peers used it so
masterfully. Tal used it to a degree. Raney, personally believed that
jazz is a "dotted eighth feel music" and even more so, he would say
"is a dotted quarter note feel." In a more condensed way to put it,
Raney used the blues influence in his playing, albeit understated.
Max Smith <sixstr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:<BuXJb.5816$bc....@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com>...
pmfan57
>
> >
> > One thing about Raney that literally separates him from almost every
> > other player is that he never uses the blues scale or play blues licks
> > involving the blues scale.
>
In some recordings from the fifties I have heard him use the blues
scale phrase that ascends: b5 5 R (then back down to) b5 4 continuing
to descend etc. I admit, though that that's about the extent of his
usage of that scale. You're right in that he's not a bluesy sounding
player in general. I also think he stopped using that phrase in his
later work, but I have to go back and check.
Dan Adler
> Another interesting distinction is his unique usage of the dotted
> eighth rhythmic figure within his lines. There was "a feel" within
> that dotted eighth feel an I believe none of his peers used it so
> masterfully. Tal used it to a degree. Raney, personally believed that
> jazz is a "dotted eighth feel music" and even more so, he would say
Tony,
Funny you should say that, Raney himself in the intro to his Aebersold
Volume 20 wrote that jazz is all about even eighth notes, with a
slight emphasis on the upbeats. I don't know how to reconcile that
with what you said.
hans van leeuwen
that period and an admirer of all guitarists mentioned (although Billy
Bean is new to me). What I would like to know is how the experts in
this ng feel about the later generation of guitarists like Martino,
Metheny, Scofield, Bernstein, Van Ruller (yes I have to mention him,
not only out of chauvinism). Do you consider them simply as clones and
followers of the (great) older generation or are you willing to see
them as a new brand with fresh ideas and sometimes even brighter
talents?
Hans
http://members.chello.nl/h.leeuwen6/IrishTune.htm
Tony DeCaprio
d...@danadler.com (Dan Adler) wrote in message news:<820e87.040105...@posting.google.com>...
bob r
at h.lee...@chello.nl wrote on 1/5/04 5:34 PM:
I greatly enjoy music by all the guys you mentioned. Not sure that they're
all part of the same "generation", but I like them all. (They don't sound
much like each other, which I also appreciate.)
Another thing I like about the people you mentioned is that they are all
composers and are each in their own way bringing new elements into jazz
guitar instead of depending on the tried-and-true.
--
Bob Russell
http://www.bobrussellguitar.com
CD, "Watch This!", available at:
http://www.cdbaby.com/bobrussell
skrohn
dotted eight note feel. It is not strict at all. Strict would not
swing, it would be boring.
We can discuss "emphasis" as you attribute to Raney via his Aebersold
book or we can discuss a "feel within" as Tony says in his analysis.
In either case the end result is a personal feel for an eighth note
line which is not strait and not dotted.
Things are described based upon a reference points.
Workable descriptions can be achieved using different reference points.
This is the case here and does not amount to a contradiction that must
be reconciled.
Also, I believe that Raney in the Aebersold book was giving advice to
those using his book. He was not trying to write a paragraph that would
describe his unique feel. On the other hand, Tony WAS referencing Raney's
unique feel in his own terms.
The book was designed for Intermediate level players as indicated on the
front cover. For those players, he thought that mastering the straight
eighth note line and then adding emphasis would be a good approach.
What he said was:
"Jazz phrasing in general requires straight eighth notes, rarely dotted
eighth and sixteenths. After mastering the production of even eights, you
should practice adding very light accents to the up-beat eigths"
I would agree with this advice, but see no problem in describing Raney's
feel using other terms.
Some here have descibed Raney's feel as boring and emotionless.
Some have even refered to the blank look on his (and his son's)
face to give further strength to their arguments that Raney is
not so good. (Gave me a good laugh)
I'm sure Raney himself would not describe it that way.
Do we need to reconcile that as well :)
Scott
d...@danadler.com (Dan Adler) wrote in message news:<820e87.040105...@posting.google.com>...
skrohn
Statements attributed to Green not withstanding, I'd have to agree with Richard
on this one. I hear no Raney in Green.
I guess this is the best kind if influence then.
No copying whatsoever.
Green's sound, harmonic and time feel do not reflect anything Raney like.
I have never been able to listen to that Standards album all the way through.
I tried again today. Green's trio approach bores me terribly.
I like some of his other recordings for the group feel and the blues element,
where his lack of chords is compensated for.
He does not create interesting harmony (to my ears anyway) with his single
note line. Nor does he create any real momentum.
His line meanders.
Listen to Rany's Just Friends on the Momentum album.
Very little chording but great harmonic language anyway.
The lines are like bullets - and relaxed at the same time.
There is nothing like that in Green's playing.
"Holger Weber" <hg_weber...@yahoo.de> wrote in message news:<bt2bm4$2ivtb$1...@ID-45201.news.uni-berlin.de>...
Paul Sanwald
> followers of the (great) older generation or are you willing to see
> them as a new brand with fresh ideas and sometimes even brighter
> talents?
absolutely! I can't imagine anyone saying someone like sccofield or
metheny is a clone of anyone. I am also a big fan of the younger
generation of guitarists (bernstein, van ruller and many more) and I
think they have something new and different to say also.
I try not to think in terms of "brighter talents" as you mentioned,
becuase it is really our personal taste. Younger players play
different than older players, and they both have unique qualities.
What I love about pat metheny is different from what I love about
charlie christian, but how can we say one is better than the other? As
far as I'm concerned, both players have damn near perfect technique.
--paul
Gerry
<skr...@optonline.net> wrote:
> In either case the end result is a personal feel for an eighth note
> line which is not strait and not dotted.
Another view is to break down the emphasis with eighth-note triplets.
That's a lot better version of "swing". And it doesn't cut it, as is,
either.
It's a composite of all of this, and more.
Gerry
> A few years back there was a long thread on the similarity of Raney
> and Green. Statements attributed to Green not withstanding, I'd have
> to agree with Richard on this one. I hear no Raney in Green.
>
> I guess this is the best kind if influence then. No copying
> whatsoever.
I'll have to listen to Green sometime with that specifically in mind;
trying to find the Raney.
> Green's sound, harmonic and time feel do not reflect anything Raney
> like. I have never been able to listen to that Standards album all
> the way through. I tried again today. Green's trio approach bores me
> terribly.
Really? I'm surprised. I just love the simplicity and directness of
it. I like the degree of comfort he has with that space, unlike as I
mentioned a few weeks back, Sonny Rollins trio dates which, though
electrifying (and a real influence on me earlier), are practically
panicky about filling up that air.
> I like some of his other recordings for the group feel and
> the blues element, where his lack of chords is compensated for. He
> does not create interesting harmony (to my ears anyway) with his
> single note line. Nor does he create any real momentum. His line
> meanders.
I absolutely love Raney and Grant Green and couldn't imagine two more
different players. So I clearly like them for radically different
purposes and reasons.
> Listen to Rany's Just Friends on the Momentum album. Very little
> chording but great harmonic language anyway. The lines are like
> bullets - and relaxed at the same time.
I will listen to that one day. One day soon I hope... :-)
Josip Seidl
and vintage sound).Wish I could hear whole record.Greetings...Josip
"hans van leeuwen" <h.lee...@chello.nl> skrev i meddelandet
news:e6b11642.04010...@posting.google.com...
paul
wrote:
>Straight from the horse's mouth.
>
It appears that both sentiments were straight from the horse's mouth.
the question is how do we reconcile the two things, as they appear
somewhat contradictory?
--paul
Charlie Robinson
>the question is how do we reconcile the two things, as they appear
>somewhat contradictory?
>
>--paul
The answer would be to listen to Raney's playing. If it sounds like he is
playing straight eigths the book is the authoritive message from the horse. If
however the eigths sound as if they are dotted then then other message of the
horse is that of the true faith.
Charlie Robinson Jazz Guitarist, Composer
You can hear me online at: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/robinsonchazz
or http://www.soundclick.com/bands/rmmgj_music.htm
Keith Freeman
> is playing straight eigths the book is the authoritive message from
> the horse. If however the eigths sound as if they are dotted then then
> other message of the horse is that of the true faith.
He might even vary his 8ths depending on the piece, the effect he wants,
the chemicals (intrinsic and extrinsic) floating around in his brain...
-Keith
Music samples, tips, Portable Changes at
http://home.wanadoo.nl/keith.freeman/
E-mail: keith dot freeman at wanadoo dot nl
bob r
pcsanwa...@pobox.com wrote on 1/6/04 11:42 AM:
> It appears that both sentiments were straight from the horse's mouth.
> the question is how do we reconcile the two things, as they appear
> somewhat contradictory?
The question is, why do we need to reconcile his words? The words might have
been tossed off without a lot of forethought to meet a publisher's deadline,
or he may have simply been hearing things differently at different stages of
his life. Listen to what he played and the important answers ought to be in
there somewhere.
Byron Atkins
> > and Green. Statements attributed to Green not withstanding, I'd have
> > to agree with Richard on this one. I hear no Raney in Green.
> >
>
been influenced by Grant. This is highly unlikely but the reverse
could possibly be construed as Grant was surely probably aware of
Raney's style. Wes cited Raney as a favorite, Burrell thought highly
of Jimmy also, I'm sure Grant probably listened to Jimmy at some
point. In the period of "Talking About," and "I Want to Hold Your
Hand," Grant's phrasing was fairly fluid and modern, though it doen't
really resemble Raney's concept. It's doubtful Grant actually copied
any of Jimmy's lines but he may have still been influenced by his
concept. Grant gets around changes pretty nicely for such a
rudimentary player but not as well as Wes outlined them. Wes doen't
sound anything like Jimmy but he claimed he listened to Jimmy for
ideas. All of this is conjecture and stretching the point somewhat,
but I bet Grant was aware of Jimmy's playing.
Byron
Tony DeCaprio
Good point Charlie and Bob. LISTENING. He spoke of two different
things within the same house and working together. And I did not see
anything as contradictory in the first place, because I know exactly
what Jimmy meant on both counts( I did not make up a story about what
he said LOL); the one he told me directly from his mouth to my ears
and the statement in the book there. In the book, he was explaining
eighth notes and how they should be executed. What he thought and
taught was the the subject of the underpinning of the feel or rhythm
he had going all the time in his head; the dotted eighth or dotted
quarter feel was it. In the book (I have not seen the book) it appears
to me that he was explaining the way the eighth notes should be
executed. What does this have to do with what he told me? Two
different, yet related themes; not "contradictory"). He believed that
no matter how you executed them, the dotted quarter feel was there
always lingering(underneath or surfaced), is all. Perhaps, others
should have been as fortunate as I was to be near Raney way back when.
And look at us talking about a man so much after he is gone. We should
all be so attributed. Raney honed in on the dotted eighth and quarter
feel a helluva lot, full tilt when he would break his steady eighth
stream. So I imagine, in the book this seem a little deceiving because
you would not execute the steady eighth notes as "dotted eighth
notes". Ever notice that delayed phrasing he used so often? That was
signature and almost exclusive to him. Jim Hall used it to an extent.
It is quite noticeable (I had the good fortune to study with Hall when
I was a kid too, as well as Pass; am I name dropping? Sorry.) within
his playing with Bill Evans. To give some a little more insight into
Raney's musical philosophy. Raney called Pass' playing, "Charlie
Parker straightened out." I dug Pass a lot, but what do you think
Raney meant by that and how might that fit in with today's topic?
Pass, on the other hand thought Benson was jive. We are all human. I
said this here once before: critique is easy, living is hard. I return
to my axe.
bob r <bl...@anomie.org> wrote in message news:<BC2063E1.24FDD%bl...@anomie.org>...
Dan Adler
> http://members.chello.nl/h.leeuwen6/IrishTune.htm
Hans,
Great clips! I listened to Ecaroh and JJ Blues. Very enjoyable!
Richard Bornman
"Tony DeCaprio" <coas...@yahoo.com> wrote :
> Raney called Pass' playing, "Charlie
> Parker straightened out." I dug Pass a lot, but what do you think
> Raney meant by that and how might that fit in with today's topic?
> Pass, on the other hand thought Benson was jive. We are all human. I
> said this here once before: critique is easy, living is hard. I return
> to my axe.
Thanks for some interesting insights Tony.
Maybe Raney meant that Pass "straightened"
out the rhythmic complexities of Bird cuz he
picked evry note?
Did Pass expand on why he thought Benson was jive?
Was it to do with George's move into "commercial"
music?
Thanks for info!
Charlie Robinson
>out the rhythmic complexities of Bird cuz he
>picked evry note?
>Richard Bornman
-------------------------------------------------------
Some people contend that pure Charlie Parker style bop ended around 1946. After
that much of the angularity that was found in the music of Bird, Bud, Monk, Diz
and others of that era was "smoothed out". This trend began with Miles and was
soon adopted by almost all of the later players. You can see this for yourself
by comparing the melodies of tunes written by Chet Baker, Gerry Mulligan,
Horace Silver, Miles etc. to those of the original boppers like Bird and Monk.
Ironically the angularity of bop was preserved by numerous Avant Garde players
including Ornette and Sun Ra, but that is another story.
Gerry
Atkins <aqq...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> I remember the thread and it seems someone thought that Jimmy had
> been influenced by Grant. This is highly unlikely but the reverse
> could possibly be construed as Grant was surely probably aware of
> Raney's style. Wes cited Raney as a favorite, Burrell thought highly
> of Jimmy also, I'm sure Grant probably listened to Jimmy at some
> point. In the period of "Talking About," and "I Want to Hold Your
> Hand," Grant's phrasing was fairly fluid and modern, though it doen't
> really resemble Raney's concept. It's doubtful Grant actually copied
> any of Jimmy's lines but he may have still been influenced by his
> concept.
I don't know what Grant though nor about whom. I feel I've been
greatly influenced by Bill Evans and Wayne Shorter and I don't think
anybody could find their lines embedded in my playing as a
manifestation of linfluence. I feel strongly influenced as an artist
by Lenny Bruce, Joe Frank and Franz Kline. Don't think about hunting
them down in there...
> Grant gets around changes pretty nicely for such a rudimentary player
> but not as well as Wes outlined them.
Something grates in hearing Green called rudimentary which he most
certainly was not. I think he chose to play the way he did, he wasn't
hamstrung by hapless limitiations. Every triad is "rudimentary" I
suppose, though providing vast material for beautiful music.
And the idea of commending Wes for being gooder than Green in his
ability to "outline" changes also makes small his vast skills. I don't
know how we got to this level of analysis...
> Wes doen't sound anything like Jimmy but he claimed he listened to
> Jimmy for ideas.
If he claimed this, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
> All of this is conjecture and stretching the point somewhat, but I
> bet Grant was aware of Jimmy's playing.
I think he could have been overwhelming influenced by Raney. He may
have re-invented his style of playing at some point; but not
necessarily in an attempt to emulate him nor in anyway that's as
scientific, say, as dotting an eighth note or other "grand unification"
theories of plunking.
Based on something George Russell once said I packed my bags and MOVED
cross-country. I'd call that conspicuous "influence".
Tony DeCaprio
"Richard Bornman" <richard...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message news:<btfpk2$6inkq$1...@ID-173106.news.uni-berlin.de>...
Keith Freeman
> eighth notes and how they should be executed. What he thought and
> taught was the the subject of the underpinning of the feel or rhythm
> he had going all the time in his head; the dotted eighth or dotted
> quarter feel was it. In the book (I have not seen the book) it appears
> to me that he was explaining the way the eighth notes should be
> executed.
At slower tempos this must mean delaying them, otherwise you would get a
wooden effect | bim BAM bim BAM bim BAM... |. My guess is that he is
advocating starting with straight 8ths and then accenting the offbeats to
get a natural swing feeling, rather than the forced swing that results
from deliberately dotting the 8ths in the first place (which also puts
the accent on the downbeats).
My pianist once played It Might As Well Be Spring with the dotted 8ths as
written and I thought it sounded horribly twee! I thought to myself 'I've
never heard a jazz pianist play with that rhythm'.
tomw
robins...@aol.comremove says...
whether or not the date was 1946.
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
http://www.arts.cornell.edu/zeus/
Dan Adler
> you would not execute the steady eighth notes as "dotted eighth
> notes".
I don't think this is anything revolutionary, just the good old
triplet swing feel.
> Raney called Pass' playing, "Charlie
> Parker straightened out." I dug Pass a lot, but what do you think
> Raney meant by that and how might that fit in with today's topic?
This is the heart of my "problem" with Raney. Parker was always
soulful and exciting no matter what tempo he played and Raney was
always too cool for my taste, so I totally don't see where people get
this notion that Raney was 'Bird on guitar'. Early Joe Pass did
capture that excitement even if his articulation was more "one"
oriented than Bird. So, we can analyze it a zillion years, but in the
end, when I put on Joe Pass's Synanon or "Catch Me" or "For Django" -
I feel instant excitement, and when I put on Raney and Sonny Clark I
get an instant yawn. Bird could not make you yawn if he tried...
> Pass, on the other hand thought Benson was jive. We are all human. I
> said this here once before: critique is easy, living is hard. I return
> to my axe.
I think, if that's even true, then it was just jealousy. I was at the
Blue Note one night when Pass played solo and Benson was there
yelling: "I love you Joe, I'd be nowehere without you", and Joe said
from the stage: "Yeah, but you get to go home in a limo and I can't
even afford a cab back to my hotel"...
bob r
d...@danadler.com wrote on 1/7/04 9:32 AM:
>> Raney called Pass' playing, "Charlie
>> Parker straightened out." I dug Pass a lot, but what do you think
>> Raney meant by that and how might that fit in with today's topic?
>
> This is the heart of my "problem" with Raney. Parker was always
> soulful and exciting no matter what tempo he played and Raney was
> always too cool for my taste, so I totally don't see where people get
> this notion that Raney was 'Bird on guitar'. Early Joe Pass did
> capture that excitement even if his articulation was more "one"
> oriented than Bird. So, we can analyze it a zillion years, but in the
> end, when I put on Joe Pass's Synanon or "Catch Me" or "For Django" -
> I feel instant excitement, and when I put on Raney and Sonny Clark I
> get an instant yawn. Bird could not make you yawn if he tried...
"Excitement" is a totally personal thing, which I think you know, but I'm
only saying because I keep seeing that term crop up here as though
"excitement" were a quantifiable thing. I've certainly known people who find
Charlie Parker's music boring. (I try not to associate with those people too
often, but that's another story.) On the other hand, I find some of Raney's
playing to be exciting. When we talk about what excites us or makes us yawn,
we're making objective statements about ourselves, not about the things
which cause these responses in us. Kenny G apparently "excites" quite a few
people, after all.
"Soulful" is another one of those terms. When I hear someone opining that
George Benson is more "soulful" than Jim Hall, for example, I wonder if they
believe that there's only one kind of "soul". I also wonder how they can
tell, without actually having known a person, how well their "soul" is
expressed in their music...
Jurupari
>George Benson is more "soulful" than Jim Hall, for example, I wonder if they
>believe that there's only one kind of "soul". I also wonder how they can
>tell, without actually having known a person, how well their "soul" is
>expressed in their music...
What he said!
It may just be me, but I never had any such conversation with any musician
until I got a computer. Now all of a sudden there's an attempt to quantify all
kinds pedestrian terminology that has no commonly agreed definition, and people
actually buy into it.
I'd write more, but I need to go polish my blues sensibility. It's presently
often mistaken for Cajun, swamp or choich sensibility, and we can't be having
that!
Clif
Tony DeCaprio
Now THAT is an interesting quote. Joe did not express jealousy. But,
it is possible that he *may* have been. (I do not question your
Bluenote experience). And it was told to me by him on a few occasions
about something specific. And this is not an important part of what I
was explaining. I said it because it reflects what famous players
thought of each other (thoughts based upon how each man saw the
music), just like kids often do and people on newsgroups. Now I do not
believe you and i have ever met or have ever had harsh words to share,
but this is twice that you have intimated I am a liar. I was quoting
what had been quoted to me. I dig George's playing. Who cares what
anyone says one day to another. The "straightened out" bit was that
Raney thought Pass' playing was stiff. I dug both players and knew
both personally, had dinner with both, played with both, and have been
in their homes. Have you? You have a right to like whomever you wish
and think whomever you wish is boring or not, but to intimate that I
am a liar is a bit irregular don't you?
d...@danadler.com (Dan Adler) wrote in message news:<820e87.040107...@posting.google.com>...
Dan Adler
> and think whomever you wish is boring or not, but to intimate that I
> am a liar is a bit irregular don't you?
>
Oops. Sorry. Didn't mean it that way. Anyway, I'm outta this thread...
Tony DeCaprio
triplet swing feel."
I am sorry, again this is not what I refer to. Your reply misses the
mark again. Time for me to put this to rest though.
d...@danadler.com (Dan Adler) wrote in message news:<820e87.040107...@posting.google.com>...
Gerry
DeCaprio <coas...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "I don't think this is anything revolutionary, just the good old
> triplet swing feel."
>
> I am sorry, again this is not what I refer to. Your reply misses the
> mark again. Time for me to put this to rest though.
Why not put to rest overly reductionist perspectives intimations of
your lack of truthfulness--then leave the rest for discussion.
When you (and all others who saw him) watched Raney play, how much
vertical motion was there up and down the neck in his average play?
Whenever I attempt to analyze his playing I frequently find slides that
would take him out of a static position. And then again, and again. I
know some players tend to stick in a 4-fret-wide locale and then
through a shift or slide or both they are in a another 4-wide and they
stay there for a bit.
I'm surprised at how often Raney seems to shift. I've never saw him
play but that's the way I come away from the solo work I've analyzed.
What do you think?
Gerry
> I was quoting what had been quoted to me.
I thought you were quoting him directly, no?
Tony DeCaprio
Gerry <222...@spam.really.sucks> wrote in message news:<070120041814440914%222...@spam.really.sucks>...
hans van leeuwen
Thanks Josip and Dan. I don't know about Josip but I expressed my
admiration for Dan's playing before.
In the near future I will put some recent material on the site,
probably a life-recording with D.Onstenk in 'The
Crow'/Eindhoven-Holland
best,
Hans
Tony DeCaprio
I am not misrepresenting truth. I was not analysing either. Raney
explained his concept to me quite thoroughly. Ever notice that delayed
phrasing, the dotted quarter feel( and eighth) he was famous for? He
always saw the concept in that manner. He was not speaking of swing
8's. Another accusation? I never gave my opinion. I gave Raney's only.
I won't give anyone else's opinion again.
Would it not be wiser to ask me your question directly than say "my
lack of truthfullness?
Peace,
Tony
Gerry <222...@spam.really.sucks> wrote in message news:<070120041813326628%222...@spam.really.sucks>...
Holger Weber
"hans van leeuwen" <h.lee...@chello.nl> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:e6b11642.04010...@posting.google.com...
Hans,
let me second Dan's statement. Very enjoyable playing. I noticed on your
homepage that we share being inspired by the late great Wim Overgaauw. Hope
to meet you some day in real life.
Best wishes,
Holger
D.Onstenk
Leeuwen, Holger Weber and yours truly.
#####
"Holger Weber" <hg_weber...@yahoo.de> schreef in bericht
news:btjfse$7sej9$1...@ID-45201.news.uni-berlin.de...
D.Onstenk
a "one night stand" rhytm section with no rehearsals. Some of the Wes heads
are pretty hard to execute smoothly without the rhytm section really knowing
them though (jingles, full house, four on six). I'm not sure about that
anymore. What do you think?
#####
"D.Onstenk" <d.on...@chello.nl> schreef in bericht
news:btjm91$7ovr4$1...@ID-105352.news.uni-berlin.de...
Gerry
> > > "I don't think this is anything revolutionary, just the good old
> > > triplet swing feel."
> > >
> > > I am sorry, again this is not what I refer to. Your reply misses
> > > the mark again. Time for me to put this to rest though.
> >
> > Why not put to rest overly reductionist perspectives intimations of
> > your lack of truthfulness--then leave the rest for discussion.
>
> I am not misrepresenting truth.
You misunderstood me. Let me try again, without attemting to avoiding
using a name.
My statement above was intended to mean: "Why not disregard overly
reductionist perspectives (like those invented by Adler) and
intimations of your lack of truthfulness (like those invented by Adler)
by ignoring them--and directing your attention to other matters worthy
of discussion (by you).
Better yet, just don't say anything about Joe Pass, right or wrong,
that could offend those that idolize him. I think that's how I wound up
in his killfile--probably a good thing. There are some, Adler included,
who seem to think if it involves Joe Pass it is holy.
It's sad but always true that you can't speak ill of some players or
topics without incurring a never-ending gnat-battle, from one or many
fans. Pass may be good or bad (if judgement or opinion are allowed),
but mostly I'm uninterested in discussing him.
> I was not analysing either. Raney explained his concept to me quite
> thoroughly. Ever notice that delayed phrasing, the dotted quarter
> feel( and eighth) he was famous for? He always saw the concept in
> that manner. He was not speaking of swing 8's. Another accusation? I
> never gave my opinion. I gave Raney's only. I won't give anyone
> else's opinion again.
This was what I was advising against. You are the only one I know here
that studied with Raney and any quote you provide by him, or others in
your experience, I personally take as direct experience and therefore
unimpeachable.
> Would it not be wiser to ask me your question directly than say "my
> lack of truthfullness?
If I might guide this away from Adler's unabashed adoration of Pass,
and your truthfulness, neither of which interest me as topics, and back
to something that really does interest me as a topic; might I ask this:
Whenever I attempt to analyze Raney's playing I frequently find slides
that would take him out of a static position. And then again, and
again. I know some players tend to stick in a 4-fret-wide locale and
then through a shift or slide or both they are in a another 4-wide and
they stay there for a bit.
I'm surprised at how often Raney seems to shift. I've never saw him
play but that's the way I come away from the solo work I've analyzed.
What do you think?
--
Tony DeCaprio
on quotes, and I learned a lesson. Remember, I loved Pass too and I
studied with him in my young days also. And I am sorry if I had hurt
Dan and I am sure Dan is sorry if he hurt any Raneyites out there.
I believe that I learned the pivot thing early on from my experience
with Raney. So, I am well aware of what you speak of. I was confused
at first when you used the word "solo", as I thought you meant Solo
Guitar. If you are a subscriber to Just Jazz Guitar Magazine, you will
see pivot-city in my column: Strategic Picking and the Improvised
Line. I cannot speak for Raney on his pivotal prowess, because THAT I
never enquired about, because I was doing it and thought this is what
you do. Remember, Raney was greatly influenced by Lester Young, Bird
and Bud Powell, as was Farlow (and perhaps this is the reason for the
profound similarity in styles. Jimmy told me this too!! Bird was all
over the horn and would glide through registers like a bopp'n eagle.
Raney was very horn-influenced. I might add that Raney was well
schooled( but I do not believe music school schooled) and had perfect
pitch. He was a pretty good reader. We must not forget all that
counterpoint stuff too. The shifting (pivoting) was about the music
and not really the guitar. Forgive me if I sound too escoteric.
Gerry <222...@spam.really.sucks> wrote in message news:<080120040748516136%222...@spam.really.sucks>...
Paul Sanwald
> I won't give anyone else's opinion again.
> Would it not be wiser to ask me your question directly than say "my
> lack of truthfullness?
>
> Peace,
>
hey tony,
I enjoy your posts here a lot. I am going to totally butt in to
this conversation and say something pretty off topic, mostly because
I've been on usenet a long time. If I'm out of line, please accept my
apologies.
it seems like you take a lot of this stuff pretty personally. taking
stuff personally that people say on newsgroups is a pretty good recipe
for frustration. on this newsgroup and on any other one, people are
always going to make comments about things you say. that's mostly what
usenet is about. somebody says something and then someone else makes a
comment about it and pretty soon, we've got a discussion or an
argument or whatever.
some of those comments will be positive, some negative, etc. stick
around long enough and you will hear criticisms of every guitarist in
the book, and if you post clips then people will criticize you as
well. it's just the nature of usenet, and people in general. a lot of
the meaning behind what people are saying doesn't come across well in
print, and it takes a while to pick up on when someone is being
sarcastic or what they are implying or whatever. so a lot of times it
will save you a lot of typing if you assume someone means well, and
give them the benefit of the doubt.
--paul
Elcor Tita
Some of the criticism of Jimmy's playing I read here reminds me of
what some people say of Tristano's style. I'm listening to "Raney in
Paris" and can't help thinking of Lennie's conception. It's very
intelligent playing, more exploratory than hot, full of surprise and
his articulation is really special. He always sounds like himself too.
I think of him as 'our' Konitz. Also, there's a kind of emotional
frailty to his playing that I love. I wanna be like him when I'm 80.
Do you guys and gals hear Lennie in there, or am I just mentally
unstable ?
Muchow Gracies.
El Chord Titah
jwra...@aol.com (pmfan57) wrote in message news:<f6b28b49.04010...@posting.google.com>...
> Max Smith <sixstr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:<BuXJb.5816$bc....@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com>...
> > sgcim wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > One thing about Raney that literally separates him from almost every
> > > other player is that he never uses the blues scale or play blues licks
> > > involving the blues scale.
> >
> That's not really 100% true, at least for his playing in the fifties.
> In some recordings from the fifties I have heard him use the blues
> scale phrase that ascends: b5 5 R (then back down to) b5 4 continuing
> to descend etc. I admit, though that that's about the extent of his
> usage of that scale. You're right in that he's not a bluesy sounding
> player in general. I also think he stopped using that phrase in his
> later work, but I have to go back and check.
hans van leeuwen
> The original idea was a Wes Montgomery tribute but we will have to work with
> a "one night stand" rhytm section with no rehearsals. Some of the Wes heads
> are pretty hard to execute smoothly without the rhytm section really knowing
> them though (jingles, full house, four on six). I'm not sure about that
> anymore. What do you think?
>
> #####
1 rehearsal in the afternoon will be enough to settle that(I hope)
Hans
Holger Weber
"hans van leeuwen" <h.lee...@chello.nl> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:e6b11642.04010...@posting.google.com...
Agreed, let's just make sure the rhythm section has the set list in well
advance so they can listen to the original versions. This should be fun.
Holger
Gerry
Tita <elco...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Some of the criticism of Jimmy's playing I read here reminds me of
> what some people say of Tristano's style. I'm listening to "Raney in
> Paris" and can't help thinking of Lennie's conception. It's very
> intelligent playing, more exploratory than hot, full of surprise and
> his articulation is really special. He always sounds like himself too.
> I think of him as 'our' Konitz. Also, there's a kind of emotional
> frailty to his playing that I love. I wanna be like him when I'm 80.
>
> Do you guys and gals hear Lennie in there, or am I just mentally
> unstable ?
I've been pondering that just recently in relation to Warne Marsh,
though actually I'm more familiar with Konitz. As a zealot for Raney it
occurs to me that calling him not-hot is an insult, so I'm willing to
defend him.
But "more exploratory than hot" is an interesting phrase. I get excited
by hot players, but it's quite true that it's the somewhat "reckless"
or exploratory aspects of Raney, not really the "heat" proper that is
really what beckons.
I guess I have to spend more time with that Tristano school, and have
heard some of their very early stuff (that old Capital side) and found
it a little bloodless. I'll have to try again.
Gerry
> Wow, Gerry now I'm REALLY confused! LOL. You are right about passing
> on quotes, and I learned a lesson. Remember, I loved Pass too and I
> studied with him in my young days also. And I am sorry if I had hurt
> Dan and I am sure Dan is sorry if he hurt any Raneyites out there.
We'll let everyone tender their own apologies personally, I think. :-)
I find yours unnecessary. Closing that book then...
> I believe that I learned the pivot thing early on from my experience
> with Raney. So, I am well aware of what you speak of. I was confused
> at first when you used the word "solo", as I thought you meant Solo
> Guitar.
No, I meant single string work. It's tough enough to play by yourself
using the entire neck much less limited by position.
> If you are a subscriber to Just Jazz Guitar Magazine, you will
> see pivot-city in my column: Strategic Picking and the Improvised
> Line. I cannot speak for Raney on his pivotal prowess, because THAT I
> never enquired about, because I was doing it and thought this is what
> you do.
Many of us who absorbed Leavitt through the Berkless method were not so
easily disposed, I think.
> Remember, Raney was greatly influenced by Lester Young, Bird
> and Bud Powell, as was Farlow (and perhaps this is the reason for the
> profound similarity in styles. Jimmy told me this too!! Bird was all
> over the horn and would glide through registers like a bopp'n eagle.
Yeah, well the positions for the sax are a little different than guitar.
> Raney was very horn-influenced. I might add that Raney was well
> schooled( but I do not believe music school schooled) and had perfect
> pitch. He was a pretty good reader. We must not forget all that
> counterpoint stuff too. The shifting (pivoting) was about the music
> and not really the guitar. Forgive me if I sound too escoteric.
Hardly too esoteric. I'll see if I can't scare up the Just Jazz
articles. Where would I find them?
thomas
> > The answer would be to listen to Raney's playing. If it sounds like he
> > is playing straight eigths the book is the authoritive message from
> > the horse. If however the eigths sound as if they are dotted then then
> > other message of the horse is that of the true faith.
>
> He might even vary his 8ths depending on the piece, the effect he wants,
> the chemicals (intrinsic and extrinsic) floating around in his brain...
Jimmy's problem was more with the extrinsic.
Tony DeCaprio
pcsa...@pobox.com (Paul Sanwald) wrote in message news:<1503c94e.04010...@posting.google.com>...
Tony DeCaprio
Your last post was here and now it vanished in a puff of smoke! My
column is newly running, beginning in the current issue, November. Ed
was kind enough to feature me for eight pages. You can order that
issue from ED on line. I believe the next comes out in February. I
believe the topic, which involves pivoting, is quite useful. Feel free
to e mail me via my site, if you desire.
-Tony
coas...@yahoo.com (Tony DeCaprio) wrote in message news:<b38d2f42.04010...@posting.google.com>...
Keith Freeman
> Paris" and can't help thinking of Lennie's conception. It's very
> intelligent playing, more exploratory than hot, full of surprise and
> his articulation is really special.
-Keith
Music samples, tips, Portable Changes at
http://home.wanadoo.nl/keith.freeman/
E-mail: keith dot freeman at wanadoo dot nl
Gerry
> Your last post was here and now it vanished in a puff of smoke! My
> column is newly running, beginning in the current issue, November. Ed
> was kind enough to feature me for eight pages. You can order that
> issue from ED on line. I believe the next comes out in February. I
> believe the topic, which involves pivoting, is quite useful. Feel free
> to e mail me via my site, if you desire.
Thanks, Tony.
Ralph Patt
that's the way I come away from the solo work I've analyzed.
I studied with Jimmy Raney back in 1958-9. He used a combination of pick, then
slide, pick, then articulate. He was more concerned with getting the sound than
a simpler fingering. He was more interested in getting a horn like quality than
a (traditional?) guitar sound.
He told me he learned jazz by copying records, Parker and Miles Davis in
preticular.
He also once told be he rarely spontaneously improvised and prefered knitting
(my word) together motives or ideas for solos.
It's fasinating to me to listen how he puts those "licks" together and how well
they hold up musically.
My favorite quote of Jimmy's is "Jazz is a bag of tricks and "Bird" had the
biggest bag".
Ralph
Gerry
<ralp...@aol.com> wrote:
> > I'm surprised at how often Raney seems to shift. I've never saw
> > him play but that's the way I come away from the solo work I've
> > analyzed.
>
> I studied with Jimmy Raney back in 1958-9. He used a combination of
> pick, then slide, pick, then articulate. He was more concerned with
> getting the sound than a simpler fingering. He was more interested in
> getting a horn like quality than a (traditional?) guitar sound.
>
> He told me he learned jazz by copying records, Parker and Miles Davis
> in preticular.
>
> He also once told be he rarely spontaneously improvised and prefered
> knitting (my word) together motives or ideas for solos.
Yeah, he sounds the way, particularly so early in his career.
> It's fasinating to me to listen how he puts those "licks" together
> and how well they hold up musically.
>
> My favorite quote of Jimmy's is "Jazz is a bag of tricks and "Bird"
> had the biggest bag".
As always, thanks for the input, Ralph.
Keith Freeman
> slide, pick, then articulate.
often get hung up on all these "hammer-ons" and "pull-offs". Not coming
from that background, to me they're just unpicked slurs.