carved vs laminate
D.Onstenk
archtops are less attractive than guitars with carved tops. Still, this is
simply a matter of taste.
I own both types of archtops but lately have been turning more towards
laminate guitars sound wise. Some of what I consider to be the most
appealing classic jazz guitar sounds come from laminates (usually ES 175s),
not from carved tops. Early Joe Pass (especially For Django and Joy Spring
offer a sublime classic jazz sound), Tal Farlow, Jim Hall and Jimmy Raney
come to mind too.
I have played expensive luthier made boutique archtops with floating
pick-ups that I hated. They sounded loud allright and very much like
amplified acoustic guitars but I simply don't want my guitar to sound like
that. I want it to sound like a woody electric jazz archtop. I don't like
the highs that come with the carved top/floating humbucker configuration at
all.
Also I don't like having to roll off tone knobs to get a decent classic jazz
sound.
I guess it's just a matter of taste, not of one being better or more
desirable than the other.
#####
Harry J
"D.Onstenk" <d.on...@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:2ilr59F...@uni-berlin.de...
Not to mention that solid tops are more likely to have problems with
splitting than a laminate top... been there, done that
Harry Jacobson
www.harryj.net
bob r
wrote on 6/8/04 8:52 AM:
> Some of what I consider to be the most
> appealing classic jazz guitar sounds come from laminates (usually ES 175s),
> not from carved tops.
I'm with you on that one, ####.
> Early Joe Pass (especially For Django and Joy Spring
> offer a sublime classic jazz sound)
Joe Pass's sound on "Joy Spring" is my idea of the perfect "straightahead
jazz guitar" sound. Dark but not woofy. Clear but never piercing. It's what
I'm going for every time I play a straightahead gig.
--
Bob Russell
http://www.bobrussellguitar.com
CD, "Watch This!", available at:
http://www.cdbaby.com/bobrussell
D.Onstenk
too.
#####
"bob r" <what...@anyway.com> schreef in bericht
news:BCEB3429.2C9A4%what...@anyway.com...
Ben McDonnell
jazz
> sound.
tone with a cheap tone pot. weird. BTW played through a new poly with my tal
fairly loud yesturday and got a GREAT tone! i like the new polytones now.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------
About me, Soundclips and Transcriptions
www.geocities.com/benmcdonnelljazzguitar
"D.Onstenk" <d.on...@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:2ilr59F...@uni-berlin.de...
Greg clayton
guitar dealer] is produced by the routed in pickup. As much as I love a
nice acoustic archtop at home I'm rarely satisfied on the gig.
gc
--
....................................................................
visit www.GregClayton.com the website of Jazz Guitarist Greg Clayton
"Ben McDonnell" <ben.mcdonne...@talk21.com> wrote in message
news:qFlxc.59$dJ5...@newsfe1-gui.server.ntli.net...
Max Leggett
wrote:
>Sometimes I get the impression here that some seem to think that laminate
>archtops are less attractive than guitars with carved tops. Still, this is
>simply a matter of taste.
>
>I own both types of archtops but lately have been turning more towards
>laminate guitars sound wise.
I do that, too. Somehow the laminate seems to have a more complex
tone. But then, after a week of nothing but the laminate the carved
sounds wunnerful. Then, after a week of the carved .... They both
sound great, and the tonal difference between them is how I justify
having two nice guitars.
Some of what I consider to be the most
>appealing classic jazz guitar sounds come from laminates (usually ES 175s),
>not from carved tops. Early Joe Pass (especially For Django and Joy Spring
>offer a sublime classic jazz sound), Tal Farlow, Jim Hall and Jimmy Raney
>come to mind too.
>
>I have played expensive luthier made boutique archtops with floating
>pick-ups that I hated. They sounded loud allright and very much like
>amplified acoustic guitars but I simply don't want my guitar to sound like
>that. I want it to sound like a woody electric jazz archtop. I don't like
>the highs that come with the carved top/floating humbucker configuration at
>all.
>
>Also I don't like having to roll off tone knobs to get a decent classic jazz
>sound.
>
>I guess it's just a matter of taste, not of one being better or more
>desirable than the other.
>
>#####
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
=======================================
Jailhouse Baby Parker
the world's finest living Max Leggett-style guitarist
hepkatre...@hotmail.com is a spam trap
m le gg e tt doing business with sprint in CAnada
=======================================
Joe Finn
Dick: Like you I've played both laminates and carved tops for years. They
are very different beasts. In many situations the laminate sounds better
when amplified. Many drummers, not being especially concerned with the
guitar's dynamic requirements, make turning the amp up a little a matter of
necessity if the guitar is to be heard at all. Laminates are generally
better in a situation like this.
In non-drummerized situations and in many studio situations I still prefer
the more subtle and complex colors of a carved top. Since every situation is
a little different anyway it's nice to have one of each of these guitars
handy. ......joe
--
Visit me on the web www.joefinn.net
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S7343
I think I prefer the 175 for gigs. It just has a wonderful horn like sound.
Steve
Josip Seidl
Greetings Josip
"D.Onstenk" <d.on...@chello.nl> skrev i meddelandet
news:2ilr59F...@uni-berlin.de...
D.Onstenk
#####
"Josip Seidl" <josip...@telia.com> schreef in bericht
news:lZpxc.1818$dx3....@newsb.telia.net...
Gerry
<s7...@aol.com> wrote:
Do you think that sound is a result of the laminate top?
--
First they gerrymander us into one-party fiefs. Then they tell us they only
care about the swing districts. Then they complain about voter apathy.
-- Gail Collins
S7343
>From: Gerry 222...@spam.really.sucks
>Date: 6/8/2004 5:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <080620041445049890%222...@spam.really.sucks>
>
>In article <20040608155320...@mb-m18.aol.com>, S7343
><s7...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> I have one of each. Every week or so I switch. They're definately
>> different. I think I prefer the 175 for gigs. It just has a
>> wonderful horn like sound.
>
>Do you think that sound is a result of the laminate top?
>
Yes and no. The pickup routed in probably has alot to do with it.
Stan Fong
I like them both for different reasons. With the laminate top I use
flatwound strings and get that classic dark smokey sound through my
175. With the carve tops, I use roundwound strings to bring out the
character and drive the top of the guitar. Different sounds. That's
why most of us have more than one guitar.
In the last few of years my taste has changed for a brighter sound.
There are times when I hear players sound like they put a couple of
blankets over there amps. IMO, this like choking your sound or tone.
The unwound strings may have a warmer and fatter sound this way, but
it's at the expense of the sound of the wound strings which maybe too
muddy and undefined. I use my tone pots and volume all the way up most
of the time because I don't like altering the sound of the guitar or
signal going into the amp. I prefer a pure signal. That's why I'd
rather adjust my tone through the amp when it's neccesary.
Stan
Jim
1/2" scale length?
Joe Canon
> What would be a good laminate top guitar with cut in pickups and a 25
> 1/2" scale length?
The Gibson Tal Farlow is a great guitar.
-
Joe
Kurt Shapiro
best tone of any guitar I've owned. I A/B'd it with a 70's 175 a few months
ago, and the Dean sounded much fatter and sweeter -- and that was with the
stock Dean pups. Granted the 175 is a 24 3/4", not a 25 1/2".
If you can find a good one, you might be very surprised at the sound you get
for $400.
"Jim" <archt...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:c02f13c7.04060...@posting.google.com...
dunlop212
Also, the Barney Kessel. But personally, I would stay away guitars
made after 1960, to avoid the heavy laminate plates and wierd neck
profiles. Current Gibsons are beyond the pale, IMHO. Check out the
1940s-50s ES-350 (full body), ES-300, ES-150, and Gibson ES-5.
Kurt Shapiro
whole world except you knows that carved top guitars sound better because
they cost more.
;-)
"D.Onstenk" <d.on...@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:2ilr59F...@uni-berlin.de...
Max Leggett
<kurtWITHOUTT...@hotmailNOSPAMTHANKS.com> wrote:
>Yah, know, #####, you're entitled to your opinion, but everybody in the
>whole world except you knows that carved top guitars sound better because
>they cost more.
>
>;-)
Well, that's just one big stinkin' lie, you nahtsea. My laminate is
more spensive than my carved, so stick that in yer eq and crank it.
:-)
Gerry
<hepkatre...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 14:18:59 -0700, "Kurt Shapiro"
> <kurtWITHOUTT...@hotmailNOSPAMTHANKS.com> wrote:
>
> >Yah, know, #####, you're entitled to your opinion, but everybody in the
> >whole world except you knows that carved top guitars sound better because
> >they cost more.
> >
> >;-)
>
> Well, that's just one big stinkin' lie, you nahtsea. My laminate is
> more spensive than my carved, so stick that in yer eq and crank it.
Am I missing, something? Has the repeated reference to nazi got some
humourous overtones I'm imissing or something...
I'm sure it's really funny and all, but I guess I missed the set-up for
the gag.
Kevin Van Sant
wrote in message <2ilr59F...@uni-berlin.de> :
I don't care for the electric sound of floating pickups on an
*acoustic* archtop either. Well, for solo guitar it can sound great
but it's not the sound I want, especially in an ensemble.
But have you played a solid top with a routed pickup? That to me is
the ideal sound. Like you say it's all a matter of taste. But the
electric tone of my single routed pickup L5 is FAR more sweet than my
175. No rolling off the tone needed.
_________________________________________
Kevin Van Sant
jazz guitar
http://www.kevinvansant.com
to buy my CDs, hear sound clips, see videos, and get more info.
Alternate site for recent soundclips
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/kevinvansant_music.htm
Jack Zucker
since 1980 that I thought was good sounding. A buddy of mine has a Heritage
575 that sounds like an old 175 though. Very sweet. Not all of them sound as
good as that one though. Like anything else, you have to try before you buy.
My guess is that with most production instruments, probably only 25% have
"the sound".
You're right about the L5 though. It's got a magical combination of
attributes.
--
Experience a revolutionary way to approach the instrument.
Introducing Sheets of Sound for Guitar
"Let the music govern the way you play guitar instead of the guitar
governing the way you play music!"
Check it out at:
http://www.sheetsofsound.net
"Kevin Van Sant" <kvan...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:24dfc0l7aogqhfs27...@4ax.com...
Richard Bornman
How do u set the tone knobs on your Evans?
Kurt Shapiro
The more one pays, the better one sounds: It is the order of things.
"Gerry" <222...@spam.really.sucks> wrote in message
news:090620041615515523%222...@spam.really.sucks...
Mondoslug1
This makes sense to me. Has anybody
here bought a high dollar Solid Wood Arch & sank a Routed Humbucker in
there(L5s & such excluded). I know Jay who had the Holst had that done & that
guitar sounded really nice IMO(mp3)I thought it took large cahonas to do that,
get a fancy guitar like that & sink a Seth Lover in there - but the more I
think about it...
Max Leggett
<kurtWITHOUTT...@hotmailNOSPAMTHANKS.com> wrote:
>Well, hmmm . . . then it must sound better.
>
>The more one pays, the better one sounds: It is the order of things.
No argument there - it's in the Bible: the Book of Intonation
:-)
Morey Richman
> >*acoustic* archtop either. Well, for solo guitar it can sound great
> >but it's not the sound I want, especially in an ensemble.
> >But have you played a solid top with a routed pickup? That to me is
> >the ideal sound.
Although we all love the sound of routed pickups in laminate as well as
solid tops, let's not dismiss the beautiful "electric" sound of players
using floaters on either solid or pressed tops. Mark Whitfield has one of
the best recorded sounds ever (IMO) on his "True Blue" CD (acoustic L5 with
mini JS), likewise Ron Affif on "Solotude" (Buscarino Monarch, although many
tracks have a nice acoustic blended sound mixed in), and guys like Howard
Alden (Benedetto oval hole), Peter Bernstein (his Zeidler has a floater
doesn't it?) Frank Vignola (Benedetto Venezia), Russell Malone (pressed top
D'Angelico re-issue), Martin Taylor (Vanden), Anthony Wilson (his new
Monteleone Radio Flyer), and Birelli Lagrene (his recent recordings with a
LeGrande) don't sound too shabby with floaters either...
>
>
>
>
>
>
Max Leggett
Do you mean to suggest, sir, that excellence in tone is more dependent
on talent than it is on bank loans? Suggestions like that could lead
to the collapse of the market for guitars, not to mention civilisation
as we know it.
Joe Canon
>> >I don't care for the electric sound of floating pickups on an
>> >*acoustic* archtop either. Well, for solo guitar it can sound great
>> >but it's not the sound I want, especially in an ensemble.
>> >But have you played a solid top with a routed pickup? That to me is
>> >the ideal sound.
>
> Although we all love the sound of routed pickups in laminate as well as
> solid tops, let's not dismiss the beautiful "electric" sound of players
> using floaters on either solid or pressed tops.
Johnny Smith's tone was perfect. Spruce, carved top. Floater.
-
Joe
thom_j
an envious tee'jay
Kevin Van Sant
<richard...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
<2ipuhlF...@uni-berlin.de> :
>Kevin,
>How do u set the tone knobs on your Evans?
>
I'll get back to you on that Richard. I keep the amp out in my car
and I have no idea what the settings are unless I go look at it.
Jack Zucker
news:20040610083619...@mb-m24.aol.com...
> This makes sense to me. Has anybody
> here bought a high dollar Solid Wood Arch & sank a Routed Humbucker in
> there(L5s & such excluded). I know Jay who had the Holst had that done &
that
> guitar sounded really nice IMO(mp3)I thought it took large cahonas to do
that,
> get a fancy guitar like that & sink a Seth Lover in there - but the more I
> think about it...
It's not recommended because the bracing pattern is different for an
acoustic guitar. Some early L5 guitars have sunken tops from doing just what
you're suggesting.
I had an Ibanez GB10 which someone put routed in humbuckers in. Great fusion
guitar. Not as jazzy sounding as the stock model though...
Jack Zucker
Remember, he played at relatively low volumes. I lent my Johnny Smith guitar
to Pat Martino in the late '70s and while it sounded fabulous for low volume
gigs, he did not like it for quartet or larger groups.
Kevin Van Sant
wrote in message <lJidnUL13sW...@adelphia.com> :
>Agreed Kevin but a GREAT 175 sounds amazing too. I haven't played a 175 made
>since 1980 that I thought was good sounding. A buddy of mine has a Heritage
>575 that sounds like an old 175 though. Very sweet. Not all of them sound as
>good as that one though. Like anything else, you have to try before you buy.
>My guess is that with most production instruments, probably only 25% have
>"the sound".
I had a friend who had a 1949 es175, first year for those I think. It
was very sweet sounding. My own 1982 175 also sounds great IMO.
Laminate guitars can definitely have a killer tone. When I was
having my L5 refretted recently I had to use my 175 on a few gigs and
got tone compliments every night. You're right that across a given
model line there are gems and lemons.
Jimmy Bruno
laminate on the other hand with a built in pick up and a small body is what
I like and use the most
"Max Leggett" <hepkatre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:40c7813c...@News.sprint.ca...
Morey Richman
Yeah, that's a key point - I think most of us agree that acoustic archtops
with floating pickups sound great at low volume but when you turn it up the
sound falls apart, getting thin and tinny, not to mention the feedback
issues. The thing is, if you're playing with an acoustic bass and you have a
good projecting archtop, you don't *need* to turn up the volume. Nowadays,
with background music restaurant gigs and intimate venues that are usually
attented by less than 50 people (that's reality, please no flames) the norm,
low volume is all that is needed. For those who are fortunate enough to play
larger venues and can't send your amp's signal to a PA, or for those that
play with loud drummers and bass players who still worship John Entwistle, I
think the mounted pickup archtop is in order.
>
>
Joe Finn
"Jimmy Bruno" <ji...@jimmybruno.com> wrote in message
news:2O-dnbK9ksJ...@comcast.com...
> Carved tops are great for playing quietly or in ideal conditions. A
> laminate on the other hand with a built in pick up and a small body is
what
> I like and use the most
Are you using that really thin Hofner these days? You sound real nice on it.
......joe
--
Visit me on the web www.joefinn.net
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Nate Lamy
> On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 21:34:37 -0700, "Kurt Shapiro"
> <kurtWITHOUTT...@hotmailNOSPAMTHANKS.com> wrote:
> >Well, hmmm . . . then it must sound better.
> >The more one pays, the better one sounds: It is the order of things.
> No argument there - it's in the Bible: the Book of Intonation
> :-)
> >"Gerry" <222...@spam.really.sucks> wrote in message
> >news:090620041615515523%222...@spam.really.sucks...
> >> In article <40c7813c...@News.sprint.ca>, Max Leggett
> >> <hepkatre...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 14:18:59 -0700, "Kurt Shapiro"
> >> > <kurtWITHOUTT...@hotmailNOSPAMTHANKS.com> wrote:
> >> > >Yah, know, #####, you're entitled to your opinion, but everybody in the
> >> > >whole world except you knows that carved top guitars sound better
> >> > >because they cost more.
> >> > >;-)
> >> > Well, that's just one big stinkin' lie, you nahtsea. My laminate is
> >> > more spensive than my carved, so stick that in yer eq and crank it.
I think Roger Sadowsky, in collaboration with Jim Hall, has solved the
problem. Now you can spend big bucks for an all-laminated guitar with
a single routed-in humbucker. AND they sound good. Heck, Linda Manzer
will also be happy to build you an all-laminated archtop guitar with a
routed in pup, for hyooge dough, of course.
Party down!
- Nate
Jimmy Bruno
"Joe Finn" <J...@JoeFinn.net> wrote in message
news:40c91...@corp.newsgroups.com...
Kurt Shapiro
Bah! Absurd on the very face of it. An ignorant peasant socialist
rabble-rouser.
"Max Leggett" <hepkatre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:40c8b055....@News.sprint.ca...
geekg...@aol.com
I've owned and played a number of carved and laminates from a 1941 Epi
deluxe (carved with a DeArmond floater attached) to A 175, and a few
Ibanez GB's and new Epiphones with Kent Armstrong pickups added. I
currently have the new Strombergs and the Kent Armstrong pickups are
fantastic in each model. Check out my sound clips at
www.cdbaby.com/elias&nelson and listen to the sound. That is a
Stromberg Newport recorded acoustically (with only a mic). It sounds
better than my 41 Epi. Check out www.cdbaby.com/ericelias2 and listen
to "High Tide" which is actually "The Shadow of Your Smile" (the
sample is mis-labeled). That is the Stromberg Monterrey. They sound
great acoustically or electrically. It's all in how you record and
play. I'll take these to any gig and am pretty comfortable with the
sound within a couple of minutes. I love acoustic the sound of a
carved top, but on the gigs that I do I prefer not to have feedback
problems or worry about damaging a more expensive instrument. Just my
two cents.
--Eric Elias
www.ericelias.net www.funkyfolkmusic.com
Skip Moy
show I spoke to not only favoured using a laminated top guitar, but some
also wanted it to have a thinner body and to be light in weight.
It may be argued that there are also practical reasons for using laminated
tops , especially for performances where you are dealing with unknown
acoustics, playing enviroments and unknown given equipment. At the show,
builders such as Bill Comings and Gary Mortoro and others, had laminated
guitars which sounded good,played evenly, and projected well even when
unamplified.
Skip
"Stan Fong" <skin...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:19d70d5f.04060...@posting.google.com...
> "D.Onstenk" <d.on...@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:<2ilr59F...@uni-berlin.de>...
> > #####
>
> I like them both for different reasons. With the laminate top I use
> flatwound strings and get that classic dark smokey sound through my
> 175. With the carve tops, I use roundwound strings to bring out the
> character and drive the top of the guitar. Different sounds. That's
> why most of us have more than one guitar.
>
> In the last few of years my taste has changed for a brighter sound.
> There are times when I hear players sound like they put a couple of
> blankets over there amps. IMO, this like choking your sound or tone.
> The unwound strings may have a warmer and fatter sound this way, but
> it's at the expense of the sound of the wound strings which maybe too
> muddy and undefined. I use my tone pots and volume all the way up most
> of the time because I don't like altering the sound of the guitar or
> signal going into the amp. I prefer a pure signal. That's why I'd
> rather adjust my tone through the amp when it's neccesary.
>
> Stan
sgcim
I've been playing a Borys B120 for the last two years and at first I
felt a little strange at spending over 3 grand for a laminate top, but
I've used this guitar on over a hundred gigs and am totally satisfied
with it, and always get compliments on the sound of it by other
musicians.
At this point, every Borys player I know has bought two Borys
guitars- one has even bought two within a week of buying his first!
Although I'm obsessed with finding a Borys B420 (his carved top New
Yorker-style guitar), I know it's not going to be as hassle-free as as
a B120, as far as feedback and volume are concerned.
Bill Coumbe
> I've been playing a Borys B120 for the last two years and at first I
> felt a little strange at spending over 3 grand for a laminate top, but
> I've used this guitar on over a hundred gigs and am totally satisfied
> with it, and always get compliments on the sound of it by other
> musicians.
> At this point, every Borys player I know has bought two Borys
> guitars- one has even bought two within a week of buying his first!
> Although I'm obsessed with finding a Borys B420 (his carved top New
> Yorker-style guitar), I know it's not going to be as hassle-free as as
> a B120, as far as feedback and volume are concerned.
sgcim
what is the neck profile on the B120 like? anything like a "fat" 50's Gibson?
thanks
Bill
Kevin Van Sant
<richard...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
<2ipuhlF...@uni-berlin.de> :
>Kevin,
>How do u set the tone knobs on your Evans?
>
ok, I remembered to look finally..
both volume and master on 4
bass on 1.5 with depth switch ON
body on 2 with expand switch OFF
treble on 4
reverb is currently broken but if it worked it would probably be on
about 5
forgot to look at the scruff, but I think it might be at 6
Mine is a TE model which is 150w through a single 10". This combo
sounds different than the 12"s or 8"s obviously. Also a couple of
times when I've taken it into the Buffingtons they've tweaked a few
things on the board based on a few comments or questions about the
sound from me. This is to say... YMMV