Jazz and vocalists
DrSmith
music. Next thing I know, there's a woman vocalist singing that's
actually making me cringe she sounds so bad. But wait, I have to find
out who this is because it seems so unbelieveably bad ... Carmen McCrae
eh? The same scenario has played it out countless times with such
vocalists as Cassandra Wilson, Sarah Vaughn, Ella Fitzgerald. I can
comprehend the difficulty of what they do, but it sure does not sound
pleasant to the ear, especially once they decide to start scatting - I
can't change the station fast enough. Male vocalists don't seem to be
much better either, most of them having this syrupy, lounge-lizard
voice. I really think that some of these singers are the major reason
why a lot of people don't care for jazz. My wife doesn't mind
instrumental jazz, but the instant she hears someone singing, it's
usually "what the hell are you listening to?". I like my jazz on the
instrumental side, leave out the vocals please, and you?
Jim Kroger
I used to agree. I could never understand why Ella was so popular, after
hearing her
scat at an advanced age on a tv show. But recently i bought a CD in which she
sings Jerome Kern (songbook or somthing). No scatting, and she had the most
INCREDIBLE voice, no lilting or stylinzing, just sings it straight and
pure and I just
fell in love with it. Now I'm starting to check her out more. I saw a
singer on the Cosby
show (a great supporter of jazz) named Amanda something I think, meant to
remember
her name but didn't have a pen, it was fantastic.
I like some Sinatra, and really like Mose Allison, but can't think of
another male jazz singer
I'd listen to, whereas in rock there are many (Beatles, CSNY, Beach Boys,
scads).
Jim
--
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Dick Schneiders
>another male jazz singer
>I'd listen to, whereas in rock there are many (Beatles, CSNY, Beach Boys,
>scads).
>
>Jim
What! No Mel Torme!!
Doug Proper
or female.
I is just my personal opinion but I think Carmen McRae was a genius - the
quality of her voice may not have been sweet - at least not since the
beginning of her career but she had a saxophone like quality to the sound of
her voice. Her phrasing was impeccable. I have heard over and over again
about the incredible phrasing that Frank Sinatra had - in my opinion he had
nothing on Carmen. Her sense of time and rhythm as well as melodic
invention was unsurpassed as far as I am concerned.
I dig working with singers a great deal as well - I have been working with a
bebop singer by the name of Charles Keogh for more than a decade now and he
never ceases to amaze me (and audiences). I love playing instrumentals and
do so every set - but when it comes down to it - people in clubs like to be
sung to - don't ask me why - that is just the way it is.
I consider the singer I work with to be just another instrumentalist in the
band - at least this guy sings like it. I've done duo gigs where he
supplies the walking bass line during my solos as well.
Here is a list of what I consider to be the great Jazz Singers that I dig
listening to.
Carmen McRae
Eddie Jefferson
Johnny Hartman
Sarah Vaughn
John Hendricks
Ella Fitzgerald
Joe Williams
Just my two cents
--
Musically Yours,
Doug Proper
www.DougProper.com
do...@DougProper.com
The Guitar Specialist ®
228C Smith Ridge Road
South Salem, NY 10590
(914) 533-5589
www.guitarspecialist.com
do...@guitarspecialist.com
"DrSmith" <DrS...@Jupiter.com> wrote in message
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Tom Lippincott
>Here is a list of what I consider to be the great Jazz Singers that I dig
>listening to.
>
>Carmen McRae
>Eddie Jefferson
>Johnny Hartman
>Sarah Vaughn
>John Hendricks
>Ella Fitzgerald
>Joe Williams
I like your list, although for myself I'd add Shirley Horn and Chet Baker as
well.
Tom Lippincott
Guitarist, Composer, Teacher
audio samples, articles, CD's at:
http://www.tomlippincott.com
Florian Schmidt
wrote:
>usually "what the hell are you listening to?". I like my jazz on the
>instrumental side, leave out the vocals please, and you?
>
hmm, most of the stuff i listen to is instrumental music.. but there's
one record which always blows me completely. it's art blakey's
"buhaina".. he has a singer on it (i would have to search the record
to get the name) who really does it! and there's more of them out
there..
--
Florian Schmidt
mista...@gmx.net
http://mini.gt.owl.de/~floh
Kevin Van Sant
>I'm listening to the local jazz station, and they're playing some great
>music. Next thing I know, there's a woman vocalist singing that's
>actually making me cringe she sounds so bad. But wait, I have to find
>out who this is because it seems so unbelieveably bad ... Carmen McCrae
>eh? The same scenario has played it out countless times with such
>vocalists as Cassandra Wilson, Sarah Vaughn, Ella Fitzgerald. I can
>comprehend the difficulty of what they do, but it sure does not sound
>pleasant to the ear, especially once they decide to start scatting - I
>can't change the station fast enough. Male vocalists don't seem to be
>much better either, most of them having this syrupy, lounge-lizard
>voice.
Gee, that sure sounds like a troll.
> I really think that some of these singers are the major reason
>why a lot of people don't care for jazz.
Actually, if it weren't for some of those singers jazz would be a lot
less popular.
It's OK not to like jazz vocalists, I too generally prefer my jazz
sans-vocal, but if someone says that hearing Ella or Sarah is
"unpleasant" I have to assume that person has got some issues.
_________________________________________
Kevin Van Sant
jazz guitar
http://www.onestopjazz.com/kvansant
to buy my CDs, listen to sound clips, and get more info.
http://www.onestopjazz.com
for a comprehensive index of internet jazz resources
Tom Walls
tomli...@aol.comnospam says...
>
>>
>>Here is a list of what I consider to be the great Jazz Singers that I dig
>>listening to.
>>
>>Carmen McRae
>>Eddie Jefferson
>>Johnny Hartman
>>Sarah Vaughn
>>John Hendricks
>>Ella Fitzgerald
>>Joe Williams
>
>I like your list, although for myself I'd add Shirley Horn and Chet Baker as
>well.
Don't forget Billie Holiday, Anita O'Day, Jimmy Rushing, Chris Connor, Betty
Carter, and Sheila Jordan!
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
http://www.arts.cornell.edu/zeus/
____________________________________________________________________
the rmb troll faq is at http://liquid2k.net/rmbtroll. spread the word!
Mike Ellenberger
Tom Walls wrote:
>
> In article <20010211210320...@ng-ct1.aol.com>,
> tomli...@aol.comnospam says...
> >
> >>
> >>Here is a list of what I consider to be the great Jazz Singers that I dig
> >>listening to.
> >>
> >>Carmen McRae
> >>Eddie Jefferson
> >>Johnny Hartman
> >>Sarah Vaughn
> >>John Hendricks
> >>Ella Fitzgerald
> >>Joe Williams
> >
> >I like your list, although for myself I'd add Shirley Horn and Chet Baker as
> >well.
>
> Don't forget Billie Holiday, Anita O'Day, Jimmy Rushing, Chris Connor, Betty
> Carter, and Sheila Jordan!
I always have liked some of Abbey Lincoln's work. Scat singing is a stretch
for most vocalist I think. It's not one of my favorite forms of expression,
but I love it when it's done well. Ever hear Ella do 'A Train', wow.
Mike
--
Mike Ellenberger
Listen to some soundclips at
http://home.att.net/~grumpmeister/MikesJazzPage.html
Prys Lewis
instruments stopped trying to sound like voices and vocalists started
singing instrumentally. I don't think that one is righ and the orther wrong,
but doing too much of the instrumental approach and none of the
"vocal/voice" approach for a singer and an instrumentalist can be alienating
whilst all voice and ni instrument is slightly limmitting.
Prys
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"DrSmith" <DrS...@Jupiter.com> wrote in message
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Riley McIntire
"Doug Proper" <do...@DougProper.com> wrote in message
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> I couldn't disagree more - I dig the hell out of a good jazz singer - male
> or female.
I couldn't agree more!
> band - at least this guy sings like it. I've done duo gigs where he
> supplies the walking bass line during my solos as well.
The human voice is one of the most incredible instruments--has to be if you
think of it. It's evolved longer than any other.
Looks like no one's mentioned Lambert, Hendricks and Ross--listening to them
years ago really turned me on to jazz singing in general, and especially to
scat.
My $.02.
Riley
ToMo
Prys Lewis wrote in message <969c69$9mi$1...@neptunium.btinternet.com>...
>It is strange at soem point in Jazz History or rather over teh 1940's
>instruments stopped trying to sound like voices and vocalists started
>singing instrumentally. I don't think that one is righ and the orther
wrong,
>
>
Of course, it all started with Louis Armstrong...'dinah, di, di, dinah...'
JTG1
Holiday, then heard her do Solitude in the "documentary". Now I get it.
And let's not overlook some of the more recent vocal groups... Manhatten
Transfer, New York Voices.
Jon
Tom Walls wrote
Adam Bravo
To add, I hate Celine Dion style pop. However, I also hate Dion's voice. Too
much vibrato (almost tremolo), piercing, etc. But a lot of people hear these
people (Dion, Ella, etc.) and try to mimic them.
Good singers do a good job of mimicking them, but they are not mimicking a
good thing, IMO. But it's worse when bad singers do it.
"DrSmith" <DrS...@Jupiter.com> wrote in message
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Adam Bravo
people that agree also. The poster also made it clear that it was only an
opinion of theirs.
"Kevin Van Sant" <kvan...@pobox.com> wrote in message
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Kevin Van Sant
wrote in message <3coi6.74179$Ti5.1...@news1.alsv1.occa.home.com> :
>I certainly didn't find that a troll at all. I agree and know PLENTY of
>people that agree also. The poster also made it clear that it was only an
>opinion of theirs.
>
Maybe it wasn't, but I noticed that "DrSmith" hasn't been back to
continue in the discussion, that would be right in line with troll
like behavior.
Either way, if he was sincere or if he was trolling he got a few
responses to his thread so he should be happy.
DrSmith
local jazz station. She was singing a slow, bluesy tune, and was flat and
banal sounding. Not to put her down, but it wasn't enjoyable at all. It seems
that a lot of jazz vocalists feel the need to really over-embellish some
songs, and to me, it often doesn't work. I've heard Ella sing some tunes and
have enjoyed her. It just strikes me at times that some of the vocalists,
mostly female, are extremely self-indulgent with their vocals. Especially when
they've sang 2 or 3 verses, then they start scatting instead of letting the
band do some playing. I heard one tune on the radio where the woman didn't
even sing a verse, she basically scatted non-stop through the whole song. I
know it's a difficult thing to do, and really, I can appreciate that, but it
doesn't make it pleasant to listen to. It's like listening to someone speak
gibberish. It seems that if you sing jazz, it doesn't matter whether or not
you actually have a good or bad voice, all that matters is that you're singing
jazz. There are a few singers that I like, but all of them tend to sing in a
more straightforward manner and are very subtle with the embellishments, and
that's what I like about them. I think some of the vocalists are trying to
show all of the things that they can do with their voice, and though it may be
difficult, it's just not always pleasant to listen to.
Dick Schneiders
>show all of the things that they can do with their voice, and though it may
>be
>difficult, it's just not always pleasant to listen to.
Sounds like a lot of the jazz instrumentalists that I have heard over the
years.
Dick Schneiders
Mr.Will
>even sing a verse, she basically scatted non-stop through the whole song. I
>know it's a difficult thing to do, and really, I can appreciate that, but it
>doesn't make it pleasant to listen to.
Without wishing to be pedantic, how does this differ from instrumental "self
indulgence"? I have heard a similar thing on guitars even by my favourite
players that made me sit back and think "Yes OK YOU CAN PLAY, I GET THE F***IN
MESSAGE, but I really aren't getting anything out of what you're playing".
Perhaps because we play guitar, and don't sing? Just a thought?
Mr.Will
Planet Sound Community Arts
http://www.planetsound-arts.co.uk
icarusi
> I really think that some of these singers are the major reason
> why a lot of people don't care for jazz.
I think it might be a part, but probably more that the balance between
the amounts of instrumental and vocal music seems to be in favour of
instrumental, but I suspect more of a balance to vocal music would
have more appeal to a general audience.
Jazz singing, with it's capacity for improvisation, can tend to the
self-indulgent, but so can jazz instrumental playing. Other than that,
the singing standard I've heard on record is very good. Diane Reeves
has a new album which IIRC is a tribute to Sarah Vaughan, the radio
track I heard sounded very good. I appreciate the understated style of
Peggy Lee, sort of the Bill Basie (or Perry Como) of jazzy vocals.
Icarusi
--
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Winston Castro
wrote:
You can add me to list of people that do not care too much for vocal
based jazz. I do like some Mel Torme or Diana Krall on occasion, but
I don't really care for scat based singing styles. It quickly gets old
and/or tired IMO and often times it sounds quite ridiculous. (I could
probably get myself shot for saying that in some circles)
Max Leggett
>and/or tired IMO and often times it sounds quite ridiculous. (I could
Scat singing is like playoing a 3 chord blues. Sounds easy, but
extraordinarily difficult to really pull it off. Ella can do it, in a
jazz setting - some of the JATP sets are dynamite - but even she
sounds lame when she just goes through the motions to make some pop
song 'jazzy'. Armstrong could do it par excellence. I'm running out of
names ...........
Riley McIntire
"DrSmith" <DrS...@Jupiter.com> wrote in message
> jazz. There are a few singers that I like, but all of them tend to sing in
a
> more straightforward manner and are very subtle with the embellishments,
and
> that's what I like about them. I think some of the vocalists are trying to
> show all of the things that they can do with their voice, and though it
may be
> difficult, it's just not always pleasant to listen to.
>
As someone pointed out it's not uncommon with instrumentalists either.
One thing I found was I had to train my ear for jazz--my early childhood
exposed me to classical, r&b, rock and country. I purposely started
listening to jazz and finally "got it". Might have gotten it earlier if I'd
started chronologically. Don't know. But I had the same issue with
scat--didn't really get it until I was entranced by Lambert, Hendricks and
Ross. Now I love it. Ella is outstanding. I heard something on the radio
the other day, title escapes me, that I'd never heard and was simply
incredible. Might have been off one the Ken Burns' cds, KLON in LA was
playing them a lot during a pledge drive. But good art isn't necessarily
obvious. One must educate one's palette. Pun intended.
Think that makes $.04.
Riley