Interview with Stan Jay from Mandolin Bros and George Gruhn on vintage guitar "bubble"
MWC
http://www.wnyc.org/shows/soundcheck/episodes/2007/06/01
Mike
Max Leggett
There better not be a crash in guitar prices - I just invested the
farm in vintage Fender Jaguars ................
theappoint...@gmail.com
you a guy who can't play for shit. It seems to be a compensation
thing. Look at the prices of a new L-5 etc, outrageous !
And,.........the most infuriating thing about it is this whole fucking
bubble is driven by people who can't even play. Thanks dickheads try
rare coins, or Persian rugs.
The best players I have known in my life have had the fewest guitars,
the rest of you creepy, perv, non-playing, fetish fucks, should learn
how to play. Excuse me now, I gotta go practice.
Hope I've struck I nerve.
mikeo
at any rate you seem to have struck your own nerve...breathe fella,
breath... :)
Surely there is at least some truth to your post; it is not much
different from 50-something balding guys driving their vintage
Corvette Stingrays around the neighborhood - i am sure they all don't
have street racing credentials or anything, but have the means and
have a nostalgic yearn for American muscle cars - where is the harm?
There is perhaps a similar post on a classic car newsgroup today
decrying all the non-racers who are gobbling up the Shelby GT500
Mustangs and inflating the market.
The sad irony is that unless you are a world famous guitarist, it is a
challenge to afford many high end guitars on a musician's wages. But
as Stan Jay pointed out in the interview, there are many affordable
good quality guitars available today - much more than ever before -
especially of a $50K D'Aquisto is not in the cards...
Persian rugs???? booooring...
mikeo
> QOn Tue, 05 Jun 2007 02:32:41 -0000, MWC <mwcra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >May be a topic of interest to the group:
>
> >http://www.wnyc.org/shows/soundcheck/episodes/2007/06/01
>
> >Mike
>
> There better not be a crash in guitar prices - I just invested the
> farm in vintage Fender Jaguars ................
...and when the bubble bursts and L-5s drop to $1000, I am off to
Staten Island to buy not one, but TWO...
Greg Clayton
The guys we should blame [if anyone is to blame]
it would be the dealers who created the Vintage bit and like the diamond
biz , control the prices, write and own the price guides/magazines etc and
who once the all original guitars were pretty much out of circulation
began finding vintage parts and "restoring" guitars whose pu's or other
parts had been changed, then selling them as original. If you catch
them out they plead ignorance, however try to sell them the same guitar
then they know the state of every screw!! But I guess that's business.
I sure pine for the days when my 60's Super 400 was a "used
guitar"
Greg
--
www.gregclayton.com
The official website of Jazz Guitarist Greg Clayton
"mikeo" <mike...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1181062054.0...@a26g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
tomb...@jhu.edu
The program was mostly self-serving bullshit from the dealers. I
especially object to the statement near the end of show where one of
the dealers argues that old instruments are nearly always superior to
new ones.
Tim McNamara
"tomb...@jhu.edu" <tomb...@jhu.edu> wrote:
> On Jun 4, 8:32 pm, MWC <mwcra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > May be a topic of interest to the group:
> >
> > http://www.wnyc.org/shows/soundcheck/episodes/2007/06/01
>
> The program was mostly self-serving bullshit from the dealers. I
> especially object to the statement near the end of show where one of
> the dealers argues that old instruments are nearly always superior to
> new ones.
I suppose that it's not surprising to have some self-serving bias from
the interviewees, that being human nature and all. But they're also
predisposed to thinking that way- old instruments are better- because
they *are* vintage instrument dealers. If they thought new instruments
were superior, they'd sell primarily new instruments.
A case might be made that old *wood* is better because it's old growth
timber, which is increasingly rare thanks to well over a century of
indiscriminate clearcutting and other bad forest management strategies.
But Benedetto has provided some evidence to the contrary, making an
archtop out of construction grade lumber that sounded fine.
Tim McNamara
theappoint...@gmail.com wrote:
> Show me a "collector" / "investor" and 9 times out of 10, I'll show
> you a guy who can't play for shit. It seems to be a compensation
> thing. Look at the prices of a new L-5 etc, outrageous !
> And,.........the most infuriating thing about it is this whole
> fucking bubble is driven by people who can't even play. Thanks
> dickheads try rare coins, or Persian rugs.
People in every type of collecting of useful things have similar
complaints. Bicycles, fountain pens, toys, etc. Old coins, old stamps,
etc are a bit different, of course.
> The best players I have known in my life have had the fewest guitars,
> the rest of you creepy, perv, non-playing, fetish fucks, should learn
> how to play. Excuse me now, I gotta go practice.
>
> Hope I've struck I nerve.
No, you've mostly come across as a grump eating sour grapes.
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
I haven't read the article yet. Stan seems like a seriously nice guy.
You're unlikely to get a bargain at his shop, but you won't get
screwed either. They're good people. I wouldn't blame him for tooting
his own horn a bit.
Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
> In article <1181053275.5...@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> theappoint...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Show me a "collector" / "investor" and 9 times out of 10, I'll show
>> you a guy who can't play for shit. It seems to be a compensation
>> thing. Look at the prices of a new L-5 etc, outrageous !
>> And,.........the most infuriating thing about it is this whole
>> fucking bubble is driven by people who can't even play. Thanks
>> dickheads try rare coins, or Persian rugs.
>
> People in every type of collecting of useful things have similar
> complaints. Bicycles,
That's the ticket! ;-)
http://www.hetchins.org/100.htm
Steve
fountain pens, toys, etc. Old coins, old stamps,
> etc are a bit different, of course.
>
>> The best players I have known in my life have had the fewest guitars,
>> the rest of you creepy, perv, non-playing, fetish fucks, should learn
>> how to play. Excuse me now, I gotta go practice.
>>
>> Hope I've struck I nerve.
>
> No, you've mostly come across as a grump eating sour grapes.
Gerry
I like the line from Mundell Lowe, when asked about his guitar. He was
playing a modern guitar and said he didn't like the old classics: They
rattle too much. Precisely my feelings.
--
///---
Max Leggett
<bornfe...@dentaltwins.com> wrote:
>
> I haven't read the article yet. Stan seems like a seriously nice guy.
> You're unlikely to get a bargain at his shop, but you won't get
>screwed either. They're good people. I wouldn't blame him for tooting
>his own horn a bit.
He was straight up. He defined "vintage" as being made out materials
no longer available, like pre-69 Martins made of Brazillian rosewood.
This definition excludes an awful lot of what passed off as vintage.
"Vintage" to most people means more than 10 years old. It's one of
those meaningless words that give bragging rights. And his reasoning
behind the price increments - demographics - is spot on. No BS there.
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
rpguitar
exploit the vintage craze. Closet Classics, Relics, Reissues of every
random thing imaginable, Certificates of Authenticity, blah blah blah.
These offerings capitalize on people's inability to find and afford
the "real thing" because prices are totally out of hand. Vintage
really means stuff that you can't get today because it will never be
made "that way" again. Like a pre-war Martin or a picture inlay
Gibson L-7 or even a Fender Starcaster in my opinion.
The other category they discussed was the celebrity owned instrument,
like Clapton's "Blackie" which is an object that transcends what it
actually is. It's an icon and a piece of history; the price for such
a thing is not related to its construction materials or simple
nature. Just like a Van Gogh is not just a canvas with dried paint on
it.
The truth is that modern guitars are way more available, affordable,
and diverse than they were decades ago. A player in the 50's would
have creamed over an Eastman archtop for however much it would have
cost in the dollars of his day. Everyone gasps at the (original)
D'Angelicos and Gibson L-5's and such, but remember that many average
people played Kays and Harmonys and ES-125's and things like that.
The player with a modest budget today has a tremendous selection to
consider.
So in that regard, the original post which curses all collectors as
somehow "robbing" the guitar playing world of the only decent,
pedigreed instruments is just full of crap.
Roger
Derek
gig anyway. We are spending, as Roger pointed out above, affordable
amounts for quality guitars one could only dream about 20-30 years
ago.
Anyone who talks about the price of vintage guitars being too high,
isn't wanting one to play, but to be a collector also. I couldn't
care less if every wealthy Japanese and American businessman has a
vintage guitar in his collection.
I am a player, not a collector, and as far as I am concerned, as long
as Gibson, Sadowsky, Eastman, et al, are making decent affordable
instruments, that is good enough for me.
Mark Cleary
D'angelico out to any gig. I have on occasion used it to play a meditation
at Mass. Nobody knows and I have never even received a question about it
except, "that guitar you play doesn't have a roundhole." I use a modern
archtop for everything and it sounds as good as any vintage guitar and I
speak from experience. Just like some ordinary L-7s and Barker's or even
some modern makers guitars for less than $5k. You just cannot get past
history and 75 years of a known quality guitar. My Hollenbeck sound as good
and better than most D'angelico's I have played and I have play I
conservatively have played over 140 different D'angelico's. The problem is
that Bill cannot make a 70 year old non-cutaway or 1950's blond cutaway
NY'er and it be anything else but a copy. He could make one that is just
like them in all respects and even sound but it still is a copy. Collectors
are strange and they have money just look at the antique road show. I am
player I just happen been around them when they were still affordable it
some sense. Dealers are not to blame they just provide a service and if you
want to buy my guitar I will explain all the reason why I think it is worth
what it is.
--
Mark Cleary makes music on the finest Jazz guitars.
http://members.cox.net/ruthster/hollenbeck/
"Greg Clayton" <gregc...@videotron.ca> wrote in message
news:qoh9i.62278$XP6.1...@weber.videotron.net...
tomb...@jhu.edu
>
> Vintage
> really means stuff that you can't get today because it will never be
> made "that way" again. Like a pre-war Martin or a picture inlay
> Gibson L-7 or even a Fender Starcaster in my opinion.
That explains why the prices are high. But it doesn't justify the
claim that those guitars are inherently superior. For example, old
growth BRW may sound different from other woods. But that doesn't mean
it's superior. It just means it's different.
Tim McNamara
Mark & Steven Bornfeld <bornfe...@dentaltwins.com> wrote:
> Tim McNamara wrote:
> > In article <1181053275.5...@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> > theappoint...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> >> Show me a "collector" / "investor" and 9 times out of 10, I'll
> >> show you a guy who can't play for shit. It seems to be a
> >> compensation thing. Look at the prices of a new L-5 etc,
> >> outrageous ! And,.........the most infuriating thing about it is
> >> this whole fucking bubble is driven by people who can't even play.
> >> Thanks dickheads try rare coins, or Persian rugs.
> >
> > People in every type of collecting of useful things have similar
> > complaints. Bicycles,
>
>
> That's the ticket! ;-)
>
> http://www.hetchins.org/100.htm
Brazing those ultra long-point lugs had to be a PITA.
Tim McNamara
rpguitar <rpgu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There is so much BS in the guitar market... much of it marketing to
> exploit the vintage craze. Closet Classics, Relics, Reissues of
> every random thing imaginable, Certificates of Authenticity, blah
> blah blah.
I've been interested in getting a Tele and as such have been perusing
eBay a bit to see what's out there. It's bewildering, there seems to be
a Fender reissue for practically every year the Tele has been in
production, and in all its permutations! And they go for better than
$2000 in most cases, ferpetessake! The funny thing to me is that we're
talking about mass-produced guitars made from slabs of wood, not hand
made artisanal jewels. Solidbody electric guitars are basically canoe
paddles with pickups. Some guy named Bob with a bandsaw turned out a
hundred bodies a day following a template, another guy named Leroy
routed in the cavities using a template, etc. The necks and the bodies
might not even have been made in the same months and were just stuck
together randomly, along with pickups randomly selected from a bin and
wire off a spool with thousands of yards on it.
I can understand tens of thousands of dollars for an original D'Angelico
or D'Aquisto, in the vintage world, or a hand-carved real made-by-Bob
Benedetto in the current world. I can't understand tens of thousands of
dollars for a Les Paul. Except maybe Duane Allman's.
<snip>
> The truth is that modern guitars are way more available, affordable,
> and diverse than they were decades ago. A player in the 50's would
> have creamed over an Eastman archtop for however much it would have
> cost in the dollars of his day. Everyone gasps at the (original)
> D'Angelicos and Gibson L-5's and such, but remember that many average
> people played Kays and Harmonys and ES-125's and things like that.
> The player with a modest budget today has a tremendous selection to
> consider.
Yeah. It's quite arguable that archtop players have more good choices
available to them now than ever before, across the spectrum of price
points- from $500 to $25,000. Mid range archtops are now generally of
excellent quality and sound good, sometimes needing a little tweaking.
> So in that regard, the original post which curses all collectors as
> somehow "robbing" the guitar playing world of the only decent,
> pedigreed instruments is just full of crap.
The truly vintage instruments really are often not suitable for playing
at gigs- too fragile in many cases, too rare in some. So those
instruments really aren't on the table to begin with, but collectors
swoon over them. Maybe I am just not sentimental about guitars as a
genre of objects, although I am very sentimental about the guitars I own.
Stan Fong
"Mark Cleary" <mcle...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:pel9i.8570$Gy4.6657@trndny08...
>I play vintage guitars and modern ones all archtops and I don't take the
>D'angelico out to any gig. I have on occasion used it to play a meditation
>at Mass. Nobody knows and I have never even received a question about it
>except, "that guitar you play doesn't have a roundhole." I use a modern
>archtop for everything and it sounds as good as any vintage guitar and I
>speak from experience. Just like some ordinary L-7s and Barker's or even
>some modern makers guitars for less than $5k. You just cannot get past
>history and 75 years of a known quality guitar. My Hollenbeck sound as good
>and better than most D'angelico's I have played and I have play I
>conservatively have played over 140 different D'angelico's. The problem is
>that Bill cannot make a 70 year old non-cutaway or 1950's blond cutaway
>NY'er and it be anything else but a copy. He could make one that is just
>like them in all respects and even sound but it still is a copy. Collectors
>are strange and they have money just look at the antique road show. I am
>player I just happen been around them when they were still affordable it
>some sense. Dealers are not to blame they just provide a service and if you
>want to buy my guitar I will explain all the reason why I think it is worth
>what it is.
I think you nailed it. A lot of newer guitars made by today's luthiers are
just as good, if not better than the a lot of the vintage guitars. There's
the advance of technology, tooling and building techniques that have
progressed over the years. Even some of the Asian built guitars are getting
better. I think the advent of C&C technology has a lot to do with that. The
functionality and playability are better in the modern guitars. A good
example is the recent rave about the newer D'Angelicos many of you have
recently purchased. Another example is the recent rave on the Haflings.
Paying premium prices for vintage guitar is really like paying for the
historical value and the rarity of the guitar. I can understand why some
people get upset over collectors buying instruments and not playing them.
How can you honestly appreciate a fine instrument without playing them? It's
kind of a waste to have a fine instrument that isn't being played.
On the other side of the coin, there's the "mojo" or "vibe" of a good
vintage instrument. That's what I have with a 1949 Gibson ES175. Guitars
are like individuals. They all have their own character or lack of
character. The appreciation or depreciation of my instruments are irrelevant
to me. I have them because I love to play them, not sell them. The
appreciation value will only have relevance to my heirs after I'm gone. If
I wanted to invest for profit, I'd invest in real estate. When people buy an
instrument for an investment, that investment should be an investment in the
pleasure they get from playing the instrument.
Stan
Mark Cleary
Also, I can say that as good as my Hollenbeck is the vibe of the my
D'angelico is something.
--
Mark Cleary makes music on the finest Jazz guitars.
http://members.cox.net/ruthster/hollenbeck/
"Stan Fong" <skin...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:krydnUl0GtKimPvb...@comcast.com...
mikeo
and your heirs will have a very nice Zeidler when you are gone...:)
tom walls
skin...@yahoo.com says...
>
> On the other side of the coin, there's the "mojo" or "vibe" of a good
> vintage instrument. That's what I have with a 1949 Gibson ES175. Guitars
> are like individuals. They all have their own character or lack of
> character.
>
True dat. For instance, I've got a 1974 Martin D35. This is not a
vintage instrument, but it is 33 years old and the maturing of the woods
has produced an incredible tone. Basically, it's what they call a
bluegrass canon. This was before Martin started using truss rods so the
neck is a constant problem, but what it's got you cannot duplicate with
a new flattop. You buy a new flattop and give it 25 years, you might
have something.
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
rpguitar
> claim that those guitars are inherently superior.
Exactly, I agree 100%. Every 60's and 50's Fender I've ever played
has been a hunk of junk from a pure playability perspective. The
claim of superiority is, I think, meant to fuel the fire of demand -
which puts food on the tables of Stan and George and those of their
ilk. So take it from whence it comes...
Derek
bandstand? I agree with Stan that you are paying for a peice of
history. If I had such an instrument, I can tell you it would never
leave the house.
I would display it like a peice of art, and play it. Art you can play
with, a nice bonus!
dunlop212
body fenders and gibsons that go for 10k to way up, yes, it is a crazy
price, and may or may not be a good investment. Anyone who pays 50K
for a telecaster or a strat, or 100K for an LP, might very well be
nervous about a bubble.
If you are talking Gibson-Epiphone-Guild carved top archtops, then the
vintage prices are not high at all. The noncuts are generally
available for less than a modern copy of similar quality would cost.
And the prices have not gone up much over the last 10-15 years, pretty
much level with inflation. Plus, the resale is better than with the
new ones.
As to the rattles, I gently disagree. New ones and old ones can have
rattles, and rattles can be fixed.
tom walls
ed_h...@bellsouth.net says...
>
> As to the rattles, I gently disagree. New ones and old ones can have
> rattles, and rattles can be fixed.
>
>
>
rattle?
rpguitar
> vintage prices are not high at all.
Right, I in particular think that solidbody guitars contain little
"magic" due solely to vintage attributes. I love Strats and Teles,
and will always own at least one of each, but they are indeed lumber -
there's nothing ethereal about them. So the prices are just stupid.
Archtops are not valued nearly as high in dollar terms. And they are
much more of a specialty craft in my opinion (as are flattops). So I
have no issue with vintage archtops as a general rule. If anything, I
question the $7K *new* boutique archtop but that's another (sore)
subject that I don't feel like debating.
Roger
jimbol51
Tone
> > If you are talking Gibson-Epiphone-Guild carved top archtops, then the
> > vintage prices are not high at all.
>
> Right, I in particular think that solidbody guitars contain little
> "magic" due solely to vintage attributes. I love Strats and Teles,
> and will always own at least one of each, but they are indeed lumber -
> there's nothing ethereal about them. So the prices are just stupid.
I don't doubt that there are 'special' old tele's etc. just due to
odds with the large numbers that were made.
But most of them are probably nothing too special. And the ones that
really are special in the sound and/or playability dept. were noted
and scooped up long ago by the real tele guys. Somebody back in '63
said "Fred, if you EVER want to sell that gitar you let me know
first." And its either been passed along to real players ever since,
or eventually ended up with a collector with unlimited funds somewhere
along the line and it'll never be played by a great tele player again.