Harmonic Convergence (new age, that is)
Mark Kleinhaut
Goldstein exchanging pleasantries, Bornman and Bruno posting in the
same week without getting into "it", Zucker being nice to EVERYONE!
Posting pictures and reminiscences about long lost rmmgj brothers. I
feel like I'm in a dream where 8 planets have aligned in the heavens
above the great crystals of Sedona. Mama Mia! What's next???
bob r
Kleinhaut at markkl...@hotmail.com wrote on 2/24/05 9:15 AM:
There's an astrological alignment in effect known as the "Grand
Irrationality". That's the only explanation I can offer.
--
Bob Russell
http://www.bobrussellguitar.com
CD, "Watch This!", available at:
http://www.cdbaby.com/bobrussell
Alan
Ummm, I'll post a clip and "tee" won't be curious?
bob r
wrote on 2/24/05 9:18 AM:
> in article 1109254546.7...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com, Mark
> Kleinhaut at markkl...@hotmail.com wrote on 2/24/05 9:15 AM:
>
>> Somebody pinch me..... what's come over this place!!! Wamble and
>> Goldstein exchanging pleasantries, Bornman and Bruno posting in the
>> same week without getting into "it", Zucker being nice to EVERYONE!
>> Posting pictures and reminiscences about long lost rmmgj brothers. I
>> feel like I'm in a dream where 8 planets have aligned in the heavens
>> above the great crystals of Sedona. Mama Mia! What's next???
>>
>
> There's an astrological alignment in effect known as the "Grand
> Irrationality". That's the only explanation I can offer.
Correction. That was LAST year. For what's going on now, the words of the
sage apply: "Go figure!".
Formerly Sideways
> > Somebody pinch me..... what's come over this place!!! Wamble and
> > Goldstein exchanging pleasantries, Bornman and Bruno posting in the
> > same week without getting into "it", Zucker being nice to EVERYONE!
Of course, I was wondering the same thing. Since I was unapologetic in
slagging Doug for being a boorish lout previously, I'll step up to the
plate and commend him for his recent, positive contributions to the
group.
And Mark, I still find myself preferring the "slower" guitar players
like Grant Green, but in the inclusive spirit of rmmgj's new age, I'll
dig out some "speed demon" stuff and listen more carefully.
Wait, I think I hear the faint strains of "The Age of Aquarius" in the
background, and there's Doug, Richard, Jimmy, and Jack sitting in a
circle, resplendent in matching Nehru jackets and making the proverbial
beautiful music together ;)
j...@jackzucker.com
> Somebody pinch me..... what's come over this place!!! Wamble and
> Goldstein exchanging pleasantries, Bornman and Bruno posting in the
> same week without getting into "it", Zucker being nice to EVERYONE!
Ouch...Talk about your "left-handed-compliment"! :-)
Mark Kleinhaut
>And Mark, I still find myself preferring the "slower" >guitar players
like Grant Green, but in the inclusive >spirit of rmmgj's new age, I'll
dig out some "speed >demon" stuff and listen more carefully.
Just listen to Jack Zucker's clips on the Bornman wallpaper tracks-
that's the speed demon stuff I'm talking about! (ps. try to ignore the
backing track and imagine Jack playing with a real band...)
Joey Goldstein
With you being absent, Your Nice-Ness, maybe we all just felt a big void
we needed to fill.
--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
thom_j.
thom_j.
> Ummm, I'll post a clip and "tee" won't be curious?
thom_j.
> And Mark, I still find myself preferring the "slower" guitar players
> like Grant Green, but in the inclusive spirit of rmmgj's new age, I'll
> dig out some "speed demon" stuff and listen more carefully.
Kevin Van Sant
<markkl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
<1109254546.7...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> :
I think there must be something hypnotic or subliminal in that stupid
funk track everyone's been listening to. :)
_________________________________________
Kevin Van Sant
jazz guitar
http://www.kevinvansant.com
to buy my CDs, hear sound clips, see videos, and get more info.
Visit my new Instant Download Mp3 Store at:
http://www.onestopjazz.com/mp3-store.html
Alternate site for gig tape soundclips
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/kevinvansant_music.htm
God Almighty
It must have been the Pat Matheny New Age recording, maybe he
channeled New Age love and light beams. Maybe it was a master
plan by the Ascended Masters and the Ashtar Command, for PM
to gain the respect of Jazzers, so he could get them to listen to
the channeled Pleiadian New Age music, and be thereby enlightened.
"The NewThe "New Age" is full of Gurus with hard-ons, and irate
feminists with trust-funds. Over-fed fertility goddesses stuff their
faces with organic bon-bons, while freaked-out singing cowboys,
wishing they were Indians, bang on tom-toms. They all swoon together
to the music of New Age Wayne Newtons. - The Pope-About-Town
Uh oh, I feel a channel coming on.......
Hello, I am Elerion V
Greetings from outer space. We have been trying to reach the people of
your planet with urgent information for more than 50 years. We have
recently discovered that there have been serious credibility problems
with the people we have selected to bring our message to you. It seems
that somehow, by some strange coincidence, every single person we have
appeared to and given the task of informing the world of our
intentions has been mentally ill, and therefore very few people take
them seriously. We are currently developing more sophisticated
screening methods, and hope to be able to select a sane human being to
be our spokesperson, one who will be taken seriously. Like maybe we
should make our presence known to CNN or something. We urge you to be
patient, we will figure out how to get our message to the people of
Earth.
Our names would be impossible for you earthlings to pronounce, so we
take names from Marvel Comics and grade B outer space movies.
We have brought you technology which will enable you to resist the
mind control rays from the HAARP Antenna, and other forms of
government mind control, like TV. Our patented HAARP Antenna
Neutralizer is guaranteed to block out mind-controlling rays, or your
money back! For more details visit: Vortron CyberTech, Inc.
I do not have a physical body. I am currently inhabiting the body of
some fat slob couch potato I found sitting at his computer. I don't
like it in here. He was in the process of downloading porn and
swilling down beer when I took over his body.
We have many helpful hints for your planet, for example:
We have figured out a way to get psychiatric patients to be more
compliant with taking their medications. Simply give the drugs an
outer space sounding name, like "Serenion", "Ulterian" etc. Tell the
patient it is a Pleiadian drug. They'll gobble them right up, and stop
all that annoying babbling. On my planet, we have drugs that make
Thorazine seem like a refreshing pick-me-up
I have noticed several New Age channelers claiming to be in direct
communication with aliens from Outer Space. For some reason, the
aliens' names usually end in "ion" or "ian", no matter what part of
the universe they are from. Isn't that odd? Here on earth, there are
hundreds of different languages, yet in the vastness of outer space,
they all appear to spell the same way.
A woman told me she was from "the Pleiades", so I asked her
"Whereabouts in the Pleiades are you from?". I tried to explain to her
that the stars in that constellation only look like they're close
together from here, but they are actually billions of miles apart.
It's not like the Pleiades is a neighborhood.
+
Johnny Asia, Guitarist from the Future
http://johnnyasia.info
"I say play your own way. Don't play what the public wants. You play what
you want and let the public pick up on what you're doing even if it does take
them fifteen, twenty years." - Thelonious Monk
Formerly Sideways
to keep this from turning into rec.puppies.bunnyrabbits.
thom_j.
> Well at least we still have David Raleigh Arnold in the "Misty" thread
> to keep this from turning into rec.puppies.bunnyrabbits.
j...@jackzucker.com
I'd really love to hear your speed-chops on that tune. I suspect you'd
humble us all. :-)
Tom Walls
markkl...@hotmail.com says...
sounds. Up until about a minute and a half in, it sounds like he's
hardly trying.
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
get...@gmail.com
El Kabong
dot com> wrote:
I keep forgetting to change my user identity when I post on RMMGJ,
I have to change it when I post on the political groups, to avoid my
cyberstalkers, they "hate my freedoms".
+
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw
Want to know what's really going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html
The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html
NOTICE: This post contains copyrighted material the use of which has not
always been authorized by the copyright owner. I am making such material
available to advance understanding of political, human rights, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues. I
believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright
Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107
David Raleigh Arnold
> Somebody pinch me..... what's come over this place!!! Wamble and
> Goldstein
I remain very impressed with this group. You are great people.
just as long as I didn't mess with the Chord-Scale religion, the
ship didn't get too poisonal. --bete noir
--
When practicing tech: Don't practice the scale, practice each note.
When practicing music: Don't practice each note, practice the music.
When practicing an etude: Practice the music and each note too.
The only technical exercises for all guitarists worth a lifetime
of practice: "Dynamic Guitar Technique". Nothing else is close.
Free download: http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html
daveA David Raleigh Arnold dra..at..openguitar.com
Dick
scale religion never appealed to me in the first place. That's not how I
ever studied at all.
#####
"David Raleigh Arnold" <darn...@cox.net> schreef in bericht
news:pan.2005.02.24....@cox.net...
charles robinson
"Mark Kleinhaut" <markkl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1109254546.7...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Jimmy Bruno
> On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 06:15:46 -0800, Mark Kleinhaut wrote:
>
>
>>Somebody pinch me..... what's come over this place!!! Wamble and
>>Goldstein
>
>
> I remain very impressed with this group. You are great people.
> just as long as I didn't mess with the Chord-Scale religion, the
> ship didn't get too poisonal. --bete noir
>
times before, only the names have changed to protect the innocent
Jimmy Bruno
>
>
thom_j.
> just as long as I didn't mess with the Chord-Scale religion
all know that.. still curious tee'..
Jimmy Bruno
played with that doesn't make music using the scale chord method. A long
time ago this had come up before ; so I started asking everyone if they
use that approach in their playing. no one said yes. There are:
Dave Stryker, Howard Alden, Jack Wilkins, Randy Johnston, Russell
Malone, Jim Hall, Tal Flarlow, Pat Martino (never even heard of the
phrase chord/scale), Herb Ellis, Hank Garland, Joe Pass ( didn't know
one scale from the next, he called them "grips")Charlie Byrd, Billy
Bean(learned from Bird records)
John Pisano, Peter Berstein, Vic Juris, Frank Vignola.Ulf
Wakenius(spelled wrong)
non guitar players
Bobby Watson, Scott Hamilton, the Breckers, Grover Washington, Joey
DeFrancesco (doesn't know any theory and does not want to learn any),
Uri Caine, Sid Simmons, Larry McKenna, Gerald Veasley, John Blake, Eddie
Gomez, MArk Krammer, Kenny Barron, Dave Hartl, Richie Cole, Charles
Fambrough, Eric Alexander, Chris Potter. JAck McDuff, Jimmy Smith. Sarah
Vaugn, Nancy Wilson, Lena Horne. I know I have left out many more.
Bird once said learn your instrument and then forget all that shit when
you play, or something like it. I'm sure in his day it was not as
complicated as it is now.
I think there is practicing and playing and I don't think they are the
same thing. If you play and try all the things you practiced it will
sound like shit,
if you practice and wind up noodling around, you will waste your time.
But you need to do BOTH! just not at the same time.
That just my personal opinion. Of course I think I am right because it
works for me. The "truth" is probably somewhere in the middle
Jimmy Bruno
Now I wait for the shit to hit the fan!!!
Max Leggett
wrote:
LOL! Jimmy, I agree with you, and I think Joey Goldstein does, too,
although I don't want to put words in his mouth. It's not hygenic. I
think that anyone who played using a chord/scale approach would sound
dry and academic. I recall hearing rock guitarists in the 70s doing
it, and it was downright disgustipatin'. But I also think that it's a
useful tool to look at, to get some sounds driven into your head.
Then, just like you say, forget all that shit and just play. When I
play I don't consciously think of your 6 Essential Fingerings,but I'm
glad I studied them. Chord/scale is just a tool. It's like a
paintbrush - you don't confuse a paintbrush with the finished
painting, and you don't confuse chord/scale with making jazz. It's
hardly the only tool - I think a vastly better tool is listening to
the greats and copping their solos. But a tool's a tool for a' that.
Apart from those few rock musicians back in the 70s, I don't think
I've ever heard anyone try to play jazz just using a chord/scale
approach. I must be lucky, because it sure would be boring.
--------------------------------------------------------------
"If the gods wanted us to twist our spines about
while we played guitar, they would have given us
rubber bands rather than vertebrae. And then where
would humanity be? Propelling cornflakes box
submarines in some alien bathtub in an ungodly
time dimension where the music of the spheres
consisted of Kenny G."
Friedrich Nietzsche
--------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Walls
says...
>
> Now I wait for the shit to hit the fan!!!
>
>
Kurt Shapiro
Man, I've been waiting for that one.
"Mark Kleinhaut" <markkl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1109258058.8...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
thom_j.
> Now I wait for the shit to hit the fan!!!
curious tee'...
thom_j.
> Apart from those few rock musicians back in the 70s,
alwayz curious tee'..
Max Leggett
wrote:
They've completely escaped my mind; what they played was so
unmemorable that nothing stuck. This was back in the days of fusion,
when rock guitarists thought they could attain artistic credibility by
becoming jazz musicians. All they had to do was run some modes, and
that's all they did.
Joey Goldstein
Jimmy Bruno wrote:
>
>
> Before anyone asks who they may be, I can only answer by who I have
> played with that doesn't make music using the scale chord method. A long
> time ago this had come up before ; so I started asking everyone if they
> use that approach in their playing. no one said yes. There are:
What "method" did they they use? Is there is a method that does it all?
What method is that?
And anyways, chord-scales are not a method. They are an idea, a concept.
You don't have to have an understanding of that concept to be a good
player. I've never said you did.
It's been a useful thing for me both for typical standard tonal
progressions and for more modern, for want of a better description,
ECM-ish type stuff. It's especially useful for the type of music that is
written using scalar palettes rather than typical 7th chords, like some
of Kenny Wheeler's music.
It's got precious little to do with bebop or straight ahead jazz, but it
can still be applied in those areas if desired. But it won't be bebop
that comes out. It will be something different. Pure bebop has its own
syntax and chord-scale thinking can be like a square peg in a round
hole. So if that is the music you are most interested in the chord
scales concept is probably not where it's at, especially if you're a beginner.
And I'd be surprised if anybody who plays by some "method" going to be
playing anything that interests me.
Still, I really think most of you guys who not only do not use the
chord-scale concept but are so dead set against it really don't
understand it fully. I run into the same misconceptions all the time.
"Who says I can't play this note? Fuck you."
"I don't care about them damn Greeks. I'm an American!"
Again, a chord-scale is just another way of visualizing an arpeggio of
an extended chord.
G7(9,11,13) and G mixolydian are the *same* thing looked at from 2
different angles, that's all.
--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
thom_j.
"Max Leggett" <hepkatre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:421e4dc8....@News.sprint.ca...
> On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:54:23 -0500, "thom_j." <thom_...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>>"Max Leggett" wrote:
>>> Apart from those few rock musicians back in the 70s,
>>Care to share "those few rock musicians"?? hmmmm?
>>alwayz curious tee'..
>
> They've completely escaped my mind; what they played was so
> unmemorable that nothing stuck. This was back in the days of fusion,
> when rock guitarists thought they could attain artistic credibility by
> becoming jazz musicians. All they had to do was run some modes, and
> that's all they did.
Ah I C... I was just curious.. you know who tee'...
Kurt Shapiro
"charles robinson" <robins...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:loCdnRmvR8C...@comcast.com...
> Kleinhaut sings!
>
Joey Goldstein
Jimmy Bruno wrote:
>
>
> Before anyone asks who they may be, I can only answer by who I have
> played with that doesn't make music using the scale chord method. A long
> time ago this had come up before ; so I started asking everyone if they
> use that approach in their playing. no one said yes. There are:
>
> Dave Stryker, Howard Alden, Jack Wilkins, Randy Johnston, Russell
> Malone, Jim Hall, Tal Flarlow, Pat Martino (never even heard of the
> phrase chord/scale), Herb Ellis, Hank Garland, Joe Pass ( didn't know
> one scale from the next, he called them "grips")Charlie Byrd, Billy
> Bean(learned from Bird records)
> John Pisano, Peter Berstein, Vic Juris, Frank Vignola.Ulf
> Wakenius(spelled wrong)
>
> non guitar players
>
> Bobby Watson, Scott Hamilton, the Breckers, Grover Washington, Joey
> DeFrancesco (doesn't know any theory and does not want to learn any),
> Uri Caine, Sid Simmons, Larry McKenna, Gerald Veasley, John Blake, Eddie
> Gomez, MArk Krammer, Kenny Barron, Dave Hartl, Richie Cole, Charles
> Fambrough, Eric Alexander, Chris Potter. JAck McDuff, Jimmy Smith. Sarah
> Vaugn, Nancy Wilson, Lena Horne. I know I have left out many more.
I guess it says more about me than them, and that's OK with me, but
there's only a small handful of people on that list whose music I really
care for. They're all fine musicians, some of them great. I just don't
care much for what they do. There is absolutely nobody on that list that
I would care to emulate in my own music either, well maybe 1 or 2.
If I were making up my own list of folks I imagine have studied the
chord-scale concept and had gotten *some* worth out of it (Remeber
please, this is not a "method" it's a concept...*Nobody* uses these
ideas as some sort of a method), and I haven't actually asked them so
I'm just guessing, I'd get:
Gary Burton, Pat Metheny, Hal Crook, Mick Goodrick, Mike Gibbs, Mike
Brecker, Randy Brecker, Bob Berg, Mike Stern, Maria Schneider, Kenny
Wheeler, Chick Corea, Keith Jarrett, Brad Mehldau, Ralph Towner, Jan
Garberek, Dave Douglas, John Abercrombie, Kurt Rosenwinkel, Ben Monder,
Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Ritchie Beirach, McCoy Tyner, David Liebman,
Charles Lloyd, Wayne Shorter, Joe Zawinul, Toots Thielmans, Jaco
Pastorius, Joe Henderson, John Scofield, Kenny Werner, Steve Swallow,
Carla Bley, Paul Bley, John McLaughlin, Freddie Hubbard, Dave Grusin,
Tom Scott, Scott Henderson, David Sandborn, Stanley Jordan, Kevin
Eubanks, Dave Holland, Stanley Clarke, Marcus Miller.
I know I have left out many more.
> Bird once said learn your instrument and then forget all that shit when
> you play, or something like it. I'm sure in his day it was not as
> complicated as it is now.
There have been many years and many new techniques since Bird's day. So
yes, there is more to learn, unless you want to play in a style like
that of Bird's day.
> I think there is practicing and playing and I don't think they are the
> same thing. If you play and try all the things you practiced it will
> sound like shit,
Usually. Charlie Banacos told me once that Mike Brecker (he wasn't a
student of Charlie's but they had talked) told him he always tried to
work at least some of whetever new stuff he was working on that day into
his gig that night.
> if you practice and wind up noodling around, you will waste your time.
> But you need to do BOTH! just not at the same time.
I think you you need to keep them separate too. But when you're first
starting out and you don't have any gigs yet it's important to practice
not practicing, i.e. to pretend you're out there on the bandstand
playing. So I think we need to practice playing too.
> That just my personal opinion. Of course I think I am right because it
> works for me. The "truth" is probably somewhere in the middle
What works for you?
All you've said here is what doesn't work for you, and by extention all
your friends.
What's *your* method?
ken
Joey Goldstein wrote:
> (Remeber
> please, this is not a "method" it's a concept...*Nobody* uses these
> ideas as some sort of a method)
> What works for you?
> All you've said here is what doesn't work for you, and by extention
all
> your friends.
> What's *your* method?
You just said chord/scale is not a method, so you haven't told us what
your method is either...
;)
Ken
juru...@aol.com
aliens' names usually end in "ion" or "ian",
Greetings, people of Earth. I am Ionian. I am music. I write the
songs. The Pleiades are all sluts. They're not even sisters.
Ian Ionian
a denizen of the planet Onio
Your galaxy will be overrun by Onions
Joey Goldstein
Exactly. I don't have "a method". Yet people seem to be accusing me of
propagating a bad one in the face of some better one.
Maybe there is a method and it works every time for everybody. It turns
all students into jazz virtuosi with their own voice and singular
concept. I'd like to know what that is please.
Kurt Shapiro
So, what's the deal with the Breckers? Are they Scalites or Anti-Scalites?
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:421EABBF...@nowhere.net...
Kurt Shapiro
It's about time we heard from you. We have an urgent question for you that
has plagued mankind since the dawn of our civilization:
Chord-scales: Yes or no?
"God Almighty" <poki_pongo at yahoo dot com> wrote in message
news:41sr11t4jfmq0h6b8...@4ax.com...
[snip]
> Uh oh, I feel a channel coming on.......
>
> Hello, I am Elerion V
>
> Greetings from outer space. We have been trying to reach the people of
> your planet with urgent information for more than 50 years. We have . . .
[snip]
Jimmy Bruno
of the people you mentioned, it is my understanding they are not using
chord/scale thinking. Believe what you like. This thread is about to
go nowhere. This is Usenet, I stated my opinion and you stated yours,
what more is there to say? There is nothing more I can add to this.
It is only the music the counts, not how one got there.
My teaching methods are well known and documented and used by several
universities throughout the world.
I can't put in all in an email.
You certainly have a right to disagree, but then so do I.
Peace.
Jimmy Bruno
mean they can't play them or have never studied them.
Peter Inglis - TWG
<snip> They've completely escaped my mind; what they played was so
> unmemorable that nothing stuck. This was back in the days of fusion,
> when rock guitarists thought they could attain artistic credibility by
> becoming jazz musicians.
That's a funny idea. I wonder if anyone actually thought like that.
--
Regards,
Peter Inglis - www.thewholeguitarist.com
-- email: pe...@thewholeguitarist.com
-- Read "Guitar Playing and How it Works"...
-- A new terminology and approach to the guitar based
-- on principles of the Alexander Technique and dance.
-- Videos of my guitar playing at www.thewholeguitarist.com/listen.htm
Jimmy Bruno
the group that I mentioned and the group the group that you mentioned,
each have their on take on on the whole thing, that's why they all sound
so different.
What blows me away is a guy like Joey DeFrancesco. he has played with
Miles, John McLaughlin, the breckers, too many to list and yet he knows
nothing about chord scale thing. How is that possible?
I think God gives everyone a certain amount of natural talent.
I coul dplay and hear tunes of any style by the time iwas ten or older,
maybe that's why the scale/chord thing never appealed to me.
i did ractice scales and arps and interval studiies for the same reason
a bassonist or a violiist does... to be able to play your instrument.
I don't think there is an answer to this or that there is a scle camp vs
a non scale camp.
I only care about making music. When I teach I can only say how "I" make
music and what I have learned from playing with others who make music.
The snow storm has given me a few days off. I will take advantage of
that and finish recording.
I have nothing more to add.
There are many ways to accomplish the same thing. I 'm not passing
judgement on any method or anyone.
The music is what matters.
>
Richard Bornman
"Jimmy Bruno" <jimmy...@mac.com> wrote > I don't have one method or one
approach. My point was that everyone in
> the group that I mentioned and the group the group that you mentioned,
> each have their on take on on the whole thing, that's why they all sound
> so different.
> What blows me away is a guy like Joey DeFrancesco. he has played with
> Miles, John McLaughlin, the breckers, too many to list and yet he knows
> nothing about chord scale thing. How is that possible?
> I think God gives everyone a certain amount of natural talent.
SNIP
Hey JB,
I know we have had our disagreements, and some probably
still exist, ha!, but I just wanted to say that your posts
in the last while have been so full of commonsense and rational
honesty that i find that really admirable.
I find that one of the positive things about the 'net is that interacting
with contrasting viewpoints forces one to see "the other side" of an
argument,
and I have found that this has tempered my previously
narrow-minded thinking. I think I am far more open and less dogmatic
about most things than I was before I was exposed to so many dissenting
ideas. Judging from your posts over the years, I think i am correct in
noticing a similar thing in you. If i am wrong on this, then set me
straight,
as I cant speak for you...Anyway your no-bs honesty in some of your posts
has been inspirational to me. Its good to have down to earth people like
you in our "game".
RB
Jimmy Bruno
learned to state my opinion without detracting from another's view
point. Music is too vast for a single minded view . I think what makes
jazz or all music interesting is that it allows each individual to have
a unique voice when they play. That's why there are so many different
methods etc.
Sometimes, people take offense if I disagree with them, as if I am
saying their opinion does not matter or is wrong. Don't know why that
is. But there is no right or wrong in music. You either like the music
or you don't or one is in between.
Each painter or sculptor or any artisan throughout history has put
his/her own special touch or imprint on their work.
I believe they each have found their own personal "take" or insight into
whatever it is they are doing. I believe this to be true amongst
guitarists as well, from Charlie Christian to Pat Metheny to Frisell,
just about everyone in every style of music.
After 40 years of playing, I have found a few things about guitar and
music that I think are a lot easier than what's available in academia.
Most universities and colleges are open to this sort of thinking.
I never say I think that academia is wrong, just different from the way
I think it should be.
Nice to talking with you richard.
What time is it in Australia? It's 7:20 Am on east coast, US
My booking agency is talking with someone about doing a tour there.
Sidney and Melbourne.
There is also a guitar society that is interested in bringing over. The
name escapes me.
Hope to meet you if it happens.
Kevin Van Sant
<richard...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
<388i02F...@individual.net> :
>I find that one of the positive things about the 'net is that interacting
>with contrasting viewpoints forces one to see "the other side" of an
>argument,
>and I have found that this has tempered my previously
>narrow-minded thinking. I think I am far more open and less dogmatic
>about most things than I was before I was exposed to so many dissenting
>ideas.
hey, I'm glad this thread finally got back on topic :))
_________________________________________
Kevin Van Sant
jazz guitar
http://www.kevinvansant.com
to buy my CDs, hear sound clips, see videos, and get more info.
Visit my new Instant Download Mp3 Store at:
http://www.onestopjazz.com/mp3-store.html
Alternate site for gig tape soundclips
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/kevinvansant_music.htm
ken
Jimmy Bruno wrote:
> I don't know anyone who thinks about scales when playing jazz.
Doesn't
> mean they can't play them or have never studied them.
I think that's the key to this whole discussion; I don't think anyone
on Joey's list will say they think about scales when playing jazz...
even if that's the way they teach it (like Gary Burton, Mick Goodrick).
Ken
Joey Goldstein
Jimmy Bruno wrote:
>
>
> I don't know anyone who thinks about scales when playing jazz.
Well I haven't seen your video in a while man but I coulda' sworn there
was a whole thing in there about improvising with a major and gradually
adding chromatic notes. If that's not thinking about scales, I don't
know what is.
> Doesn't
> mean they can't play them or have never studied them.
Ah. So we're not supposed to be thinking of them once we know how to
play? I'd agree with that, to a degree.
Joey Goldstein
Jimmy Bruno wrote:
>
>
> everyone in
> the group that I mentioned and the group the group that you mentioned,
> each have their on take on on the whole thing, that's why they all sound
> so different.
Exactly. Nobody does or studies just one thing, and if they did they'd
be a bore.
> What blows me away is a guy like Joey DeFrancesco. he has played with
> Miles, John McLaughlin, the breckers, too many to list and yet he knows
> nothing about chord scale thing. How is that possible?
Does he know that when he plays a B on Am7 it's a 9th above the root,
that D is an 11th, and that G# is a 13th? Even if he doesn't...Does he
know what those notes sound like on that chord in various harmonic
settings? Probably. And if he does then he knows what the chord-scale
concept is supposed to help the student to become aware of. That's all
it is man. There IS no more to it than that.
All you guys who have this agenda, it seems, of putting down the
chord-scale concept don't seem to get this. It's like you think you're
all on some quest or something to make jazz education right again.
Sheesh. Enough already.
And where do you anti-scalites draw the line? Who's in your camp and
who's not? You guys aren't all that organized y'know.
You've said time and time again here that all you need is the major
scale, not modes.
Barry Harris says all you need are the bebop scales, not the major
scale, not modes.
DRA says that's all bulshit, all you need is the chord.
Well from where I sit, you're all right to some degree. And you're all
wrong too. It's like fundamentalism or something.
Yes, there are a lot of music students walking around trying use
chord-scales in an unmusical way, as if a chord-scale is some oracle for
always playing the "right notes", and this isn't what the concept is
sopposed to give them. It's supposed to make them aware of those sounds
and that's all it's supposed to do. What do with that awareness as
musicians is up to them. If those students are serious this will just be
a phase and they'll find ways to use what they've learned by studying
chord-scales, *as well as everything else they've studied and ledarned*
to play with their ears and their hearts.
Kurt Shapiro
"El Kabong" <poki_pongo at yahoo dot com> wrote in message
news:l65u11hgfmlgqh80l...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 00:59:26 -0800, "Kurt Shapiro"
> <kurtWITHOUTT...@hotmailNOSPAMTHANKS.com> wrote:
>
> >Dear Elerion V,
> >
> >It's about time we heard from you. We have an urgent question for you
that
> >has plagued mankind since the dawn of our civilization:
> >
> >Chord-scales: Yes or no?
> >
>
> Chord-scales are used on the planet Algrebran, by a race
> of silicon-based life forms known as the Mathematons. They are
> in the process of taking over your planet. My race, the Inspiratons,
> from the planet Empathian, has been at war with them for eons.
>
>
> +
>
> Johnny Asia, Guitarist from the Future
> http://johnnyasia.info
>
>
> "I say play your own way. Don't play what the public wants. You play what
> you want and let the public pick up on what you're doing even if it does
take
> them fifteen, twenty years." - Thelonious Monk
Paul Kirk
Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>
> Yes, there are a lot of music students walking around trying use
> chord-scales in an unmusical way, as if a chord-scale is some oracle for
> always playing the "right notes", and this isn't what the concept is
> sopposed to give them. It's supposed to make them aware of those sounds
> and that's all it's supposed to do. What do with that awareness as
> musicians is up to them. If those students are serious this will just be
> a phase and they'll find ways to use what they've learned by studying
> chord-scales, *as well as everything else they've studied and ledarned*
> to play with their ears and their hearts.
>
>
This is how I see it too. I donšt understand the hostility to "chord-scale".
My guess is that one reason is there is a large group of rock guitar players
(or beginners) who want to branch into jazz, and get the misimpression
(maybe from the rock guitar magazines, or poorly written guitar method
books) that all they have to do is "learn" a bunch of scales (or "modes", or
"jazz scales", etc).The resistance to "chord-scale" studying might come
from the correct conclusion that you you wont sound like wes montgomery by
learning a few new scales and trying to run a different one over each chord,
and people here may feel the need to stress this fact.
Moreover, for the most part, "improvising in jazz" for beginning and
intermediate (and many advanced) players consists of improvising to
standards and bebop chord changes. Since these changes have so much
comonality (e.g the formulae II-V-I, IIm7b5-V-Imi, Imaj7-Im7 gets you
through 90% of commonly played jazz tunes) everybody "hears" these after a
few years of playing. It is clear that when you "hear" the chord progression
(i.e. without thinking) you can improvise effectively without thinking of
scales.
But for more modern progressions you have to start somewhere, and it seems
to me the most obvious place to start is to look at the chords and decide
which note choices work over each chord. Jimmy Bruno said the way to learn
"Iris" is to play it for 40 hours. OK, I agree totally, but what do you do
the first few hours. (or in my case, what do I do on the gig tonight? Maybe
not blow on this tune..) Maybe play the chord progression for an hour
concentrating on inversions and voice leading, then maybe spend a few hours
on figuring out some scales that fit those chords, then eventually the whole
tune gets internalized and you start to play with it, use your ear, etc.
At this point, never having played Iris before, I donšt see much in common
with other tunes: the harmony is a new challenge. This is in contrast to if
someone lays a standard on me that I never played before, I'll be able to
make something of it since the harmony is likely to be composed of
progressions I've played over a million times.
Paul Kirk
Jimmy Bruno
other tune. You have maj, min and dom. The alterations should not
effect what you play. I alter 5ths on any chord whether it maj or dom.
As long as it makes a good melody t will sound fine.
Try leaving out the alterations and you will get lot's of tension in
your lines.
At this point you got nothing to lose since you don't knkow the tue anyway.
Another thing I would definetly do is MEMORIZE the changes. This whole
jazz thing becomes almost impossible if you have to read the changes
every chorus.
I get to play a lot of original tunes with Charles fambrough and Gerald
Veasley and Bobby Watson . All of them write non traditional tunes
harmonically. I only have to read it through once or twice and after
that I never have to look at the music again.
This didn't happen overnight.
I always felt stupid being on stage looking at the music when you are
playing in a small group.
On the other hand there is Joey De
He never looks at the music and can play anything, anytime over any set
of chords.
Makes you want to slap the shit out of him.
I played with him on the road for about 6 months and he always played
tunes I didn't know... no music either.
After the 1st or 2nd time I had all the changes.
If you are constantly in that type situation you either sink or swim.
After many years, I am able to do that.
You gotta start somewhere, even if it's at the beginning. I say go for
it the best you can. It won't sound all that horrible until you try to
think while your playing.
Trust yourself. It won't be the 1st time someone stepped all over
themselves on a tune.
After a while you will get good at it.
Just like anything else.
As far as tonight goes, I wouldn't want to play that tune having never
played it before. If I were you I'd take the simply approach and use
your ears, ignore the alts and see what you get.
email me privately and let me know how you make out.
I'll bet you do just fine.
pmfan57
pmfan57
on "el kabong" ("I'll do the thinnin' around here and don't you four
ghet itt"), but Google put it after a post that has nothing to do with
that. Sorry.