Good Bye Pork Pie Hat analysis
Joey Goldstein
Here's the way I'm thinking these days.
F: Gb: f:
T D T SDm SD SD SD d
I7 V7 Imaj7 IV7 bVII7 bVI7 bVII7 V7/IV
F7 Db7 | Gbmaj7 Cb7 | Eb7 Db7 | Eb7 F7 |
(loc)
f: Gb:
SD SD SD D d d D T
IVm7 bVI7 IIm7 V7 V7/II V7/V V7 Imaj7
Bbm7 Db7 | Gm7 C7 | D7 G7 | Db7 Gbmaj7 |
(loc) (dor)
Gb: f: F: Gb: F:
SDm d D SD T D T SDm T
IV7 V7/VI V7 bVII7 I7 V7 Imaj7 IV7 I7
Cb7 Bb7 | C7 Eb7 | F7 Db7 | Gbmaj7 Cb7 || F7
1. The Db7 in bar 1 is first heard as bVI7, in F with SDm function.
bVI7 should be seen as a borrowed chord from the parallel locrian scale.
(See the Db7 chord in bar 3 as well as the Db7 in bar 5 for true bVI7
chords in F minor.) It is a pivot chord between the keys of F and Gb.
A case can also be made that Gbmaj7 is a borrowed chord from the
parallel phrygian scale (or parallel locrian scale) which would be
analysed in the key of F as bIImaj7 with SDm function, and then the
preceeding Db7 is therefore operating as V7/bII. The following Cb7 is
then seen as a borrowed chord from the subdominant minor area of the key
of bII.
I chose to label this simply as a modulation to the key of Gb but the
gravity of the initial tonic on F are still felt throughout this passage
and are reinforced by the melody notes which all come from F minor and
the F blues scale. (see #7 below)
2. The Gm7 in bar 6 is analysed as IIm7 in the key of F minor and is a
borrowed chord from the parallel dorian scale or the melodic minor scale.
3. The C7 in bar 6 is heard with dominant function in the key of F minor
so the move to D7 is a deceptive cadence.
4. The Db7 in bar 8 is first heard as SubV7/V in the key of F minor. It
is a pivot chord between the keys of F minor and Gb.
5. Bar 9 has a Bb7 chord that I've called V7/VI. Coming from where it is
coming from its target would normally be Ebm7b5 (VIm7b5 in the key of Bb
minor) or Ebm (VIm in the key of Gb). So the sudden, unexpected move to
C7 (that I have called V7 in F minor) is another deceptive cadence. This
move is made possible partly because of the suggestion throughout the
tune of the tonic on F via the melody.
6. The last chord of the tune, Cb7, is the biggest puzzle because it has
a cadential feeling about it leading back to the I chord, F7.
All I can say is that this chord is very much like F7b5/B and the move
from Gbmaj7 to Cb7 has a feeling of SD to tonic in the key of F. I.e.
It's sort of like the Cb7 has us already arriving back at I. It's a very
unusual movement yet it's completely satisfying.
7. All the movements to the key of Gb from F and/or F minor can also be
seen as a form of mixed mode technique, where the tonic remains on F,
and there is borrowing going on from the parallel locrian scale.
But when chords like Cb7 start appearing, from the parallel Gb minor
scale, the analysis gets harder to pin down with logical looking stuff
unless you admit that a full fledged modulation to Gb has actually occurred.
Again, it's an unusual tune and uses unusual devices. Whether or not
Mingus thought about much of this type of stuff or just noodled with the
F blues scale and some nice sounding chords I/we will never know. But
the tune *can* be analysed along the lines that I have used. None of
this is etched in stone in my mind (except that the tune's primary tonic
is indeed on F) and I'd love to see the analyses from some other folks too.
--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
Joe Finn
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:3F8E3076...@nowhere.net...
Nice post, Joey. Good analysis.
I've always thought of the tune as an alternate set of blues changes.
......joe
Visit me on the web www.joefinn.net
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Patrick Hanrahan
that what I get for using a News Reader.
So 1st the key of Eb question. The recording is in Eb minor, pitch wise.
Groves and the Real Bk. have it in F minor. The Mingus fake book " Charles
Mingus. More than a Fake Book" Has it in Eb minor, as does Brian Priestley
in his book,"Mingus: A critical Biography". Note the Mingus Fake book uses 3
flats in the key signature and notates the Gb. I figured this one out by
ear long before I got the real book so I like to play it in Eb but for this
discussion F minor is fine. Sorry for any confusion.
Yes I like this analysis better then the one you posted the other day,
although that one was really good too. I like everything you came up with
and it makes really good cents. I been playing this tune again, in F minor,
and have some thoughts.
I started looking at it two measures at a time, in line with the melodic
phrases. This made the harmony feel tighter, to me. I all so played just
the bass notes in 2 bar phrases, witch really nailed down the keys for me.
I agree on the 1st 4 bar.
Bar 5: I was thinking that the Db might be just a parallel major to the key
of Bb minor, the usual key center for a blues.
Bar 6 as you said ii V in F
Bar 7: D7 as a deceptive cadence. The G7 as the III7 giving you VI7 III7
Bar 8 from the point of bass movement, a repeat of the last measure 1/2 step
down. for the point of the harmony, a modulation into Gb Maj. V7 Imaj7 By
the way this is just stunning. I don't know if its because this is the 2nd
time we hear Gb Maj or if its the melody coming out of the syncopation.
That key shift all ways blows me away.
Ok now this might be a bit of a stretch. I was thinking in a normal minor
blues bar 9 and 10 are usually/or could be bVI7 to V7#9.
In a Major Blues There just a ii V. In a simple blues IV V. Thinking like
that I see a Bb7 in bar 9 and a C7 in bar 10. So I was thinking that maybe
the B7 in bar 9 could be a pivot cord. The IV in Gb maj. and a tri-tone sub
in F. That way you get IV V I with the Eb7 in bar 10 as a passing cord to
F7. bVII7 to I7
Bar 11 and 12 are a repeat of bar 1 and 2. I think the melodic rhythms
helps in not noticing that your repeating the same cords changes two bars
later. Also this progression works as a turnaround, sort of like the one in
'Lady Brid' ( Imaj7 bIII maj7 bII maj bVmaj)
Ok that my take, Thank GOD you don't have to solo on these changes. Wow,
What a mental workout. Joe I just like to say I learned a lot in this
discussion. Thanks!!!!! ;)
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:3F8E3076...@nowhere.net...
Joey Goldstein
Joe Finn wrote:
>
> I've always thought of the tune as an alternate set of blues changes.
Whatever it is it's a nice tune.
I never really played it much before but I was working on it for an hour
or two today. It's got some real interesting shit about it. Not really
sure that my analysis holds up though, but thanks.
Steve Carter
tune couldn't be analyzed. He was serious.
Steve
Steve Carter
www.frogstoryrecords.com
Joey Goldstein
Patrick Hanrahan wrote:
>
> I total missed the last couple of replies from you and Jurupari. I guess
> that what I get for using a News Reader.
> So 1st the key of Eb question. The recording is in Eb minor, pitch wise.
Ah. OK. Thanks.
> Groves and the Real Bk. have it in F minor. The Mingus fake book " Charles
> Mingus. More than a Fake Book" Has it in Eb minor, as does Brian Priestley
> in his book,"Mingus: A critical Biography". Note the Mingus Fake book uses 3
> flats in the key signature and notates the Gb.
Was that book endorsed by Mingus himself?
> I figured this one out by
> ear long before I got the real book so I like to play it in Eb but for this
> discussion F minor is fine. Sorry for any confusion.
> Yes I like this analysis better then the one you posted the other day,
> although that one was really good too. I like everything you came up with
> and it makes really good cents. I been playing this tune again, in F minor,
> and have some thoughts.
> I started looking at it two measures at a time, in line with the melodic
> phrases. This made the harmony feel tighter, to me. I all so played just
> the bass notes in 2 bar phrases, witch really nailed down the keys for me.
> I agree on the 1st 4 bar.
> Bar 5: I was thinking that the Db might be just a parallel major to the key
> of Bb minor, the usual key center for a blues.
Well, sure there's a relation between the two chords because the Db7 is
built on the 3rd of the Bbm7. But we're not in the *key of Bbm" here.
When we call the preceeding F7 chord V7/IV it does not meant that full
fledged modulation has happened to the key of IV or IV min. It's a
fleeting secondary tonicization of a chord with a diatonic root. And the
tune is related to an F blues not a Bb blues.
I did label both chords as having SD function in the key of F minor (the
parallel minor) and that's about all you say here I think.
> Bar 6 as you said ii V in F
I'm still in f minor at that point actually.
> Bar 7: D7 as a deceptive cadence. The G7 as the III7 giving you VI7 III7
I don't follow you. G7 would be a III7 chord in Eb major. We are not in
Eb major with this chart. Did you mean VI7 II7?
"VI7" and/or "II7" are not really designations that you're supposed to
assign to dom7 chords that have dominant function. They are seen as
secondary dominant rather and are labeled with an indication of where
they normally resolve. Eg. V7/II, V7/V. But come to think of it I didn't
really do this right in my analysis either.
The resolutions can only be seen in retrospect, by looking backwards
through the progression from the point of resolution. So I correctly
labeled the G7 as V7/V, because that's where it would normally resolve
to in this key, even though it's resolution is thwarted by the move to
Db7 and then to Gb, i.e. with a deceptive cadence. But the D7, because
the chord following it is not a Gm chord, is supposed to be
called...believe it or not...V7/V/V ("V7 of V-of-V"). This is the way
chains of dom7 chords moving through a cycle of 5ths are supposed to be labeled.
Eg. In C:
V7/V/V/V V7/V/V/V V7/V/V V7/V V7
B7 E7 A7 D7 G7
Seems nutty, I know. But it actaully makes sense, because the feeling of
the primary key is really sort of in a state of suspended animation
during these chains of dominants. So it doesn't really make sense to
call B7 VII7 in the key of C.
> Bar 8 from the point of bass movement, a repeat of the last measure 1/2 step
> down.
Sorry, but I don't see how that matters. Roots moving down in 5ths or up
in 4ths are at the heart of all tonal harmonic progression.
> for the point of the harmony, a modulation into Gb Maj. V7 Imaj7 By
> the way this is just stunning. I don't know if its because this is the 2nd
> time we hear Gb Maj or if its the melody coming out of the syncopation.
> That key shift all ways blows me away.
> Ok now this might be a bit of a stretch. I was thinking in a normal minor
> blues bar 9 and 10 are usually/or could be bVI7 to V7#9.
> In a Major Blues There just a ii V. In a simple blues IV V. Thinking like
> that I see a Bb7 in bar 9 and a C7 in bar 10. So I was thinking that maybe
> the B7 in bar 9 could be a pivot cord. The IV in Gb maj. and a tri-tone sub
> in F. That way you get IV V I with the Eb7 in bar 10 as a passing cord to
> F7. bVII7 to I7
Well you're on to something there but I think it's simpler than what
you're saying. This is also what Joe Finn is hinting at when he says
that this is a reharmonized blues, and he's right.
The B7 is functioning as SubV/IV. I had thought of this before but
couldn't really rationalize some of the rest of the chords to work with this.
The essence of the 12 bar blues form is a Tonic chord at (or near) bar
1, a SD chord at (or near) bar 5, a tonic chord at (or near) bar 7, some
sort of a D chord or a SD chord or a combination of both throughout bars
9 and 10, a tonic sound around bar 11, and some sort of a turnaround to
get you back to the top tonic chord:
I | | | |
F
IV | |I | |
Bb F
SD or D |SD or D |T turnaround --- | ------ |
Bb or C F
The only place where this schematic is thwarted in this tune is at bar 7
where the D7#9 comes in instead of a tonic chord. But Dm7 *would have*
been a tonic chord so it's not all that far off. So all the essential
elements of the blues form are in tact in this tune, but so are many of
the other things detailed in my analysis too.
A very hip blues.
> Bar 11 and 12 are a repeat of bar 1 and 2. I think the melodic rhythms
> helps in not noticing that your repeating the same cords changes two bars
> later. Also this progression works as a turnaround, sort of like the one in
> 'Lady Brid' ( Imaj7 bIII maj7 bII maj bVmaj)
Sort of like Lady Bird, but not really. You don't see bV7 - I cadences
too often!
Adam Gottschalk
When I was playing this tune in a workshop band we discussed our
collective feeling that it seemed almost inappropriate, or unnecessary
maybe, to improvise much. Even just hearing each of the instruments in a
band each play the melody for one chorus would be satisfying music
methinks.
Charlie Robinson
>I never really played it much before but I was working on it for an hour
>or two today. It's got some real interesting shit about it. Not really
>sure that my analysis holds up though, but thanks.
>
>--
>Joey Goldstein
-------------------------------------------------------------
You could compare it with McGlaughlin's interpretation here:
http://www.italway.it/morrone/WBTG-videos.htm
Charlie Robinson Jazz Guitarist, Composer
You can hear me online at: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/robinsonchazz
or http://www.soundclick.com/bands/rmmgj_music.htm
Joey Goldstein
Steve Carter wrote:
>
> I remember being at a Gary Burton clinic in the 70's when he said that
> tune couldn't be analyzed. He was serious.
I think he's right too. There are hints at bi-tonality, vis a vis the
melody, all over the place and analysis techniques that are designed for
music in a single key are not really up to the task.
Plus Gary's my idol! .... and probably my 2nd biggest influence next to Metheny.
Gary's the smartest musician I've ever come in contact with. I was
fortunate enough to have him for small band arranging. And I took a
summer semseter just so I could get an ensemble with him.
I learned SO much from watching his gigs around Boston while I was there.
Joey Goldstein
That clip doesn't seem to want to run on my old Mac, but thanks anyway.
I'm embarrassed to say this but I might have never heard the Mingus
version of this. I know it only from McLaughlin's acoustic album of many
years ago My Goal's Beyond, and from the Real Book.
I just saw him a couple of weeks ago doing the Remember Shakti thing.
Very impressive, very moving, but sometimes very boring too.
There were only a couple of tunes that went beyond a drone harmonically,
but man, what he and the mandolin guy can do with a drone!
I thought his guitar tone (he was playing what looked like a Godin
Multi-Ac through a Macintosh laptop computer) sucked but the synth
sounds were gorgeous. I can't even get into a lotus posture but those
guys were all sitting like that for 2 hours! A nice Jewish boy watching
Hindu sacred music on Yom Kippur night. What have I become?
His right hand is just phenomenal. Thanks for reminding me. I spent a
few days working on my picking after that but I've let it slide! <g>
Back to the drawing board.
Jurupari
>tune couldn't be analyzed. He was serious.
I had a web page on the tune, and looked in my FTP and saw it was still there.
I took it down because some of the click to plays were pretty rushed and could
have been played better. Some of them are still in FTP but maybe not all of
them.
Anyway, it's available to look at at
http://angelfire.com/jazz/clif/hrmanls.htm
It looks at the tune from the perspective of Db, starting with F7#9, and treats
the D7-G7 as a 3-6 in F.
Clif Kuplen
Charlie Robinson
>version of this. I know it only from McLaughlin's acoustic album of many
>years ago My Goal's Beyond, and from the Real Book.
>
>I just saw him a couple of weeks ago doing the Remember Shakti thing.
>Very impressive, very moving, but sometimes very boring too.
>There were only a couple of tunes that went beyond a drone harmonically,
>but man, what he and the mandolin guy can do with a drone!
>I thought his guitar tone (he was playing what looked like a Godin
>Multi-Ac through a Macintosh laptop computer) sucked but the synth
>sounds were gorgeous. I can't even get into a lotus posture but those
>guys were all sitting like that for 2 hours! A nice Jewish boy watching
>Hindu sacred music on Yom Kippur night. What have I become?
>
>His right hand is just phenomenal. Thanks for reminding me. I spent a
>few days working on my picking after that but I've let it slide! <g>
>Back to the drawing board.
>
>
>--
>Joey Goldstein
It wasn't such a great idea anyway. I went back and checked it myself. He plays
open string arpeggios throughout most of it with some extremely fast scale
flashes peppered in. Impressive, but not what you seem to be looking for.
Richard Bornman
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> Plus Gary's my idol! .... and probably my 2nd biggest influence next to
Metheny.
> Gary's the smartest musician I've ever come in contact with. I was
> fortunate enough to have him for small band arranging. And I took a
> summer semseter just so I could get an ensemble with him.
> I learned SO much from watching his gigs around Boston while I was there.
Have you seen that Burton/Corea DVD?
They play La Fiesta, and the timefoolery they indulge in is just
off the hook. Unbelievable rhythmic command...
Richard
Keith Freeman
> sure that my analysis holds up though, but thanks.
can move around almost randomly. They have a quality of standing still and
going somewhere at the same time, so almost any pair of dom7s can sound
like some kind of cadence. Hence any attempt at analysis is a hiding to
nothing afaic...
-Keith
Music, tips, Portable Changes at
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/FreeKeithMan
Richard Bornman
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote :
> I just saw him a couple of weeks ago doing the Remember Shakti thing.
> Very impressive, very moving, but sometimes very boring too.
> There were only a couple of tunes that went beyond a drone harmonically,
> but man, what he and the mandolin guy can do with a drone!
Srinivas is absolutely amazing!! For me he blows J Mc away on this stuff.
> I thought his guitar tone (he was playing what looked like a Godin
> Multi-Ac through a Macintosh laptop computer) sucked but the synth
> sounds were gorgeous.
I can't stand John's sound since he moved back to electric after the
acoustic trio stuff. Its like a weak Metheny sound, with no centre,
and he uses those annoying bigsby fall-offs on notes...
Keith Freeman
blowing changes.
Keith Freeman
> version of this.
grief.
Keith Freeman
> acoustic trio stuff.
straight electric archtop on Round Midnight!
But I haven't stopped listening (except to the cacophonic fusion stuff)
'cos his musical approach is so strong.
Patrick Hanrahan
"Tim Hodgson" <thn...@poboxmolar.com> wrote in message
news:1g2z0yh.c28mqvll46fiN%thn...@poboxmolar.com...
> Patrick Hanrahan <pth...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> > So 1st the key of Eb question. The recording is in Eb minor, pitch
wise.
> > Groves and the Real Bk. have it in F minor. The Mingus fake book "
Charles
> > Mingus. More than a Fake Book" Has it in Eb minor, as does Brian
Priestley
> > in his book,"Mingus: A critical Biography".
>
> I wonder if any of the key confusion arises from the 1977 recording,
> from 'Three or Four Shades of Blue', which begins in F, changes to E at
> the beginning of Mingus's solo, then to Eb at the first guitar solo. Not
> sure what was going on there!
>
> Tim
>
> --
> TimH
> pull tooth to reply
Patrick Hanrahan
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0793509009/qid=1066402106/sr=2-1/ref=
sr_2_1/104-0355689-4612702
Its verly accurate a must, if your into his music.
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:3F8F6087...@nowhere.net...
Patrick Hanrahan
minor blues.
"Keith Freeman" <freeke...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9417A600D...@194.134.35.29...
Patrick Hanrahan
McLaughlin's video, your not missing much, or I should say your missing a
god awful bass solo. The guy take a slap solo, I'm sure Mingus did a few
flips in his grave that night. It just that bad. Its like slapping became
what finger taping was to guitarist. I know Jeff Beck got a version that not
to bad. Of course there the original on Ah Um. The Mingus Big Band has got
a killer version.news:3F8F6DF6...@nowhere.net...
Patrick Hanrahan
pointless. But it kind fun to try. I bet he got a killer version.
"Steve Carter" <swca...@frogstoryrecords.com> wrote in message
news:1cnuovg6ba308r1ne...@4ax.com...
Greg M. Silverman
>
>
>I can't even get into a lotus posture but those
>guys were all sitting like that for 2 hours!
>
It's easy, but you have build up stamina over time (as the muscles rip
apart from the strecthing). I can only sit in the louts for about 10
minutes before my legs feel like they want to explode from the pain. I
can't even imagine doing this while playing guitar though.
>A nice Jewish boy watching Hindu sacred music on Yom Kippur night. What have I become?
>
Oy vay zmeer! What a goyisha moichel! :-)
gms--
Keith Freeman
> what finger taping was to guitarist.
starting to do it - yuk!
Joey Goldstein
Nope. But I've seen that duo live 4 or 5 times now I think.
Patrick Hanrahan
Rockabilly guys are cool. The Blue Grass guy really add a lot when they do,
it fills out the band, especially since there's no drummer. Its just when
any technique become this physical thing you do with no thought or feeling
behind it, no musicality, it become this self gratifying, masturbatory
illusion for music. I don't want to hear, worst yet, see someone ' jacking
off 'news:Xns9417B26B2...@194.134.35.29...
Joey Goldstein
Patrick Hanrahan wrote:
>
> Given that you solo on a different set of changes an analysis doses seem
> pointless.
Not to someone who wants to understand the way the tonal centers are
organized in the the *composition*.
Y'know the people who invented tonal harmonic analysis techniques were
looking at music that was already composed and nobody was going to solo
on anything.
For an improviser, a tonal analysis of a piece will not tell you what
chord-scales to play over a progression, although it might point the way
to several good possibilities in some spots.
An analysis for chord-scales is quite often a very different animal from
an analysis for keys.
--
Joey Goldstein
Patrick Hanrahan wrote:
>
> NEVER HERD IT. OMG!!!! Run out and get it now!!!! Just kidding. As for the
> McLaughlin's video, your not missing much, or I should say your missing a
> god awful bass solo. The guy take a slap solo, I'm sure Mingus did a few
> flips in his grave that night. It just that bad. Its like slapping became
> what finger taping was to guitarist. I know Jeff Beck got a version that not
> to bad. Of course there the original on Ah Um. The Mingus Big Band has got
> a killer version.
I first heard and saw a bass playing the slapping technique in one of
the little performance rooms at Berklee's Boylston Street building,
circa 1972. It was Abe LaBoriel playing with Gary Burton's "The New
Quartet" band. (Burton, Goodrick, Laboreal and Bob Moses I think.) At
the time it was something new, fresh, amazing and valid.
Like all things in music and art it depends on who is doing it, what
their intentions are, and their level of skill. I could listen to Marcus
Miller's slap playing any day and have a big grin on my face.
icarusi
> Again, it's an unusual tune and uses unusual devices. Whether or not
> Mingus thought about much of this type of stuff or just noodled with the
> F blues scale and some nice sounding chords I/we will never know.
It always sounds like a variation on 'Summertime' to me.
Icarusi
--
remove the 00 to reply
Myth
anyone interested in GPPH I will recomend anyone to hear the vocal version
that Mark Murphy did of this tune on his album "Bop for Kerouac". It's not
the best known album in jazzhistory, but if you want to hear a singer doing
the changes and singing with gusto, this is a must. The lyrics are Joni
Mitchell's from her collaboration with Mingus on her album "Mingus".
Take care,
Tom
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> skrev i en meddelelse
news:3F90132D...@nowhere.net...
Joey Goldstein
If anyone's interested I just heard a copy of the Mingus version. It
*is* in Eb and I *have* actually heard it before.
The blowing changes are:
Ebm Abm | Ebm Abm | Ebm Abm | Ebm Eb7b9 |
Abm |B7 Bb7 |Ebm Ab7 |Ebm Ab7 |
Cm7b5 F7b9 |F#m7 B7 Fm7b5 Bb7 | Ebm Ab7 |Ebm Ab7 ||
Basically a minor blues.
jpil...@gmail.com
> When I was playing this tune in a workshop band we discussed our
> collective feeling that it seemed almost inappropriate, or unnecessary
> maybe, to improvise much. Even just hearing each of the instruments in a
> band each play the melody for one chorus would be satisfying music
> methinks.
jpil...@gmail.com
https://youtu.be/uluyI4Rayxs