Playing along with tracks
charles robinson
with her studio tracks.What a drag! This is the second time in about a month
that I've had to do this type of thing so I'm begining to sense a trend. Are
any of you guys running into this?
Charlie
Jon Fox
news:T4WdnbNEPsl...@comcast.com...
I had a gig a few years ago, subbing for a guy who had live drums, guitar
and vocals (2 female leads, along with him or me doing the male tunes)
playing with recorded/sequenced bass, keys, horns or whatever else the tune
called for. A pop gig, of course. A drag for the most part, but it payed
the bills at the time.
Jon
--
charles robinson
ships or traveling Broadway productions. That is bad enough but for gigs
around town it is ludicrous.
Charlie
"Jon Fox" <jf...@mclennan.edu> wrote in message
news:mNOof.2030$g_6....@tornado.texas.rr.com...
Rick Ross
in smaller venues where space and budget are tight...I just ran into a "5"
piece blues band playing a very small restaurant..two guitars and organ with
bass/drums on cd..
we live in compelling times :)
"charles robinson" <robins...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:T4WdnbNEPsl...@comcast.com...
Jeff Lange
first choice but the available gigs are in small places that either don't
have the money for more players or the space. Its an unfortunate
compromise. On the other hand, I refuse to play with a recorded horn
section or piano.
Jeff Lange
www.JazzSelect.com
"Rick Ross" <rickfro...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:jVUof.34179$dO2...@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
Rick Ross
plus you don't have to hang out with him on the breaks
"Jeff Lange" <Je...@JazzSelect.net> wrote in message
news:L4Vof.38308$L7....@fe12.lga...
Kevin Van Sant
<robins...@comcast.net> wrote in message
<nIednWz7Bc3MQT7e...@comcast.com> :
>I knew that this was happening for groups that were backing shows on cruise
>ships or traveling Broadway productions. That is bad enough but for gigs
>around town it is ludicrous.
The only times I ever see that are a couple of sax players who do solo
gigs with tracks, or lame two or three player GB bands who have
everything sequenced.
_________________________________________
Kevin Van Sant
jazz guitar
http://www.kevinvansant.com
to buy my CDs, hear sound clips, see videos, and get more info.
Visit my new Instant Download Mp3 Store at:
http://www.onestopjazz.com/mp3-store.html
Alternate site for gig tape soundclips
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/kevinvansant_music.htm
Kevin Van Sant
wrote in message <L4Vof.38308$L7....@fe12.lga> :
>A friend and I are working on a trio that will include drums on CD. Not my
>first choice but the available gigs are in small places that either don't
>have the money for more players or the space. Its an unfortunate
>compromise. On the other hand, I refuse to play with a recorded horn
>section or piano.
I realize that circumstances may dictate doing what you have to do at
times, but if a venue can't afford a trio, can't you just tell them
that and say no problem, we'll do it as a duo?
Joe Finn
I think this is pretty common with pop music. I talked to a guy that just
did a cruise ship job on electric bass where the show made extensive use of
backing tracks.
I recently went to hear a guitarist that I respect and admire play a solo
gig. Much to my dismay he was using a looper. He would play solo for a while
and then play single lines over the section that he had just looped. I
thought it was pretty lame.
So far I've been lucky enough to have avoided working with backing tracks
but it could be just a matter of time. ...joe
--
Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net
>
>
Jon Fox
news:r1a8q1d82abc2hnf7...@4ax.com...
or lame two or three player GB bands who have
> everything sequenced.
Yeah, that was us! Well, not "everything", but "everything else"......
Jon
--
Dallas Selman
will be pre-recorded track that provide a sylistically suitable, interacitve
backdrop for some really worthwhile live music-expression with, say, a solo
instrument or two, or a bassist and a vocalist. The problem for a lot of
quite talented people right now is they cannot consistently acquire the
services of a pianist or guitarist or other chord chucker for performance or
rehearsal. Especially jazz musicians and singers who, like us, live in
rural areas where quality jazz music is not practised or performed much.
The country/blues/Celtic/Bill-hilly-string-band thing is what happens.
My wife, a jazz singer and a good one, works sometimes with a local hard
swinging piano player but who won't stray beyond the uptempo Cole Porter's
and the like. She pulled out Jobim's Inutil Paisagem, the other day and he
just said "forget it, the slow ones are too hard", and he is the only guy
around our neck of the woods who even reads lead sheets. (Ironically, there
is an audience for good jazz music here. She runs a well attended jazz
vespers out here but employs only the best musicians from the city).
Also, most commercial jazz or standards playalongs also have way too busy
piano comps, especially for a song where some Shirley Horn-like minimalism
would be perfection. Eventually, she would love to have
sensitive-to-her-needs tracks where she couldcontrol the real-time
attributes to a certain extent and with some reliability. A friend of mine
calls the idea Karaoke on the edge of magic.
"Joe Finn" <J...@JoeFinn.net> wrote in message
news:1134835088.0e10128e65...@roc.usenetexchange.com...
tomb...@jhu.edu
> a perfectly "predictable" drummer might be a good thing:)
> plus you don't have to hang out with him on the breaks
Yeah, but then where are you going to get your weed?
Rick Ross
<tomb...@jhu.edu> wrote in message
news:1134846411.9...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Ted Vieira
robinson" <robins...@comcast.net> wrote:
I played in a Neil Diamond tribute show in Tahoe a couple of years ago. The
band was a line-up of great players. We all learned the show, but had to
play, and blend with the tracks which were the complete instrumental backing
tracks for the tune. Kind of interesting, but that's showbiz. Paid well,
blah, blah, blah...
Ted Vieira
--
http://www.TedVieira.com
CDs, NEW: eBooks, Free Online Lessons
Free Online Articles, Performance Schedule & more...
http://www.JazzInstruction.com
A fresh new resource to lessons and
instructional materials on the web
to help your development as a jazz artist.
paul
bill frisell.
--paul
Eric
I think it's a reflection of a very sad state of affairs we are in
today.
My brother got married a month and a half ago and a husband and wife
duo was hired to do the gig (at $500/hr.)
There was nothing shit-hot about them at all. She sang and played a
little acoustic guitar. He played some flute and messed with
synths/mixers.
At the dinner function they relied exclusively on recorded backing
tracks, simply adding vocals and not much else. Again the husband was
basically twiddling some nobs the whole time with his wife parading
around with her mic.
The crowd couldn't care less. They were dancing and having a good
time. Celebrate good times... come on... etc. etc. etc.
Very, very sad.
juru...@aol.com
that I've had to do this type of thing so I'm begining to sense a
trend. Are
any of you guys running into this?
This was starting in the seventies!
I've worked solo with synths, vocal harmonizer and a sequencer and
played guitar and sang over it, but I did all the work and the
sequencing and didn't put it on anybody else. Hell, I was just trying
to steal some jobs back from dic jockeys.
I remember a killer drummer about 20 years ago losing a job with a
faded pop diva because he didn't get with the sequenced parts well.
I thought that was crap - this guy was excellent, in high demand and
had national creds. He was worth a hundred times the freakin' parts -
everybody loved playing with him.
I've been seeing it for at least 20 years. It's very commonplace.
Clif
icarusi
news:h7Yof.11279$wg4.5119@edtnps84...
> Eventually, she would love to have
> sensitive-to-her-needs tracks where she couldcontrol the real-time
> attributes to a certain extent and with some reliability. A friend of
mine
> calls the idea Karaoke on the edge of magic.
It may be worth hiring a quality keyboards player to make some suitable midi
files for backings while she sings through. You can play them out through a
decent midi module and adjust tempo and key if required or convert them to
audio to playback from CD or whatever format. There's a theatre sound
program called 'Sound Cue Sytem' which allows sequential looping of any part
of a wav (or other digital audio format) and triggering by a keypress, midi
note-on or midi program change. Unfortunately ATM the cues are instant, but
the writer is working on an option to have each loop playout completely then
start the next cue, which is more musically useful. It's still quite good
'as is' if you want to re-order pre-recorded music sections in real time.
Icarusi
--
remove the 00 to reply
Joe Finn
"Dallas Selman" <dse...@shaw.ca> wrote
> You would think that with all this emerging technology, that SOME DAY
> there will be pre-recorded track that provide a sylistically suitable,
> interacitve backdrop for some really worthwhile live music-expression
It's hard to say. We've become quite used to the sound of guitar, bass and
keyboard coming through an amp and speaker but drum sets and horns are a
bigger problem. A cymbal or the bell of a horn seems to set the air in
motion in a fundamentally different way than what a speaker cone does.
Even in some theoretically absolutely perfect future with flawless sound
reproduction, a performance with backing tracks would still be missing the
interactive element essential to the performing arts. Karaoke would still be
karaoke.
> The problem for a lot of quite talented people right now is they cannot
> consistently acquire the services of a pianist or guitarist or other chord
> chucker for performance or rehearsal.
That's just it.
As far as I can see the whole idea of backing tracks is nothing more than a
cost cutting measure. The afm has been fighting this trend for years.
For some strange, inexplicable reason many of us have adopted the crazy idea
that we actually ought to be paid for our work. ....joe
charles robinson
you are told you might be backing a vocalist on the job they are starting to
appear with backing tracks instead of charts. The night after my original
post it happened again with a different group (last night). Ironically the
CD began to skip so it was a complete disaster :)
Charlie
"paul" <pcsa...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1134857553.2...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
charles robinson
and bass background they are coming in with full orchestrations that you
play along with. Life is change I guess.
Charlie
"Ted Vieira" <con...@tedvieira.com> wrote in message
news:BFC9C3D5.9BB2%con...@tedvieira.com...
charles robinson
hand. They did so enthusiastically.They don't seem to know the difference.
Charlie
"Eric" <Er...@the.net> wrote in message
news:ej69q158jh156lteb...@4ax.com...
charles robinson
to your area soon!
Charlie
"Kevin Van Sant" <kvan...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:r1a8q1d82abc2hnf7...@4ax.com...
charles robinson
concerned but these are casual, one night, "I'll probably never see you
again" type gigs.Strange--
Charlie
"Rick Ross" <rickfro...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:jVUof.34179$dO2...@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
charles robinson
than it was worth and as you say it was pretty lame.
Charlie
"Joe Finn" <J...@JoeFinn.net> wrote in message
news:1134835088.0e10128e65...@roc.usenetexchange.com...
charles robinson
about a few instuments being added, I'm talking about full studio
orchestrations. The inclusion of real musicians (drummmers, etc) makes the
whole deal sound as if it is being played live.
Charlie
"Joe Finn" <J...@JoeFinn.net> wrote in message
news:1134876460.68901b35a8...@roc.usenetexchange.com...
charles robinson
backing tracks that were used on the singers recording sessions. You are
right in that it has been around for a long time though. The first time I
saw it was at a place called Budland in Chicago years ago. Well known
singers appeared and sang over tracks from their sessions. What is different
now is that musicians play along with them.
Charlie
<juru...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1134865286....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Kevin Van Sant
<robins...@comcast.net> wrote in message
<bZmdnUMhs6NJyTje...@comcast.com> :
I think that paul was referring to the use of loopers with those guys,
not tracks. But I'm not positive because he's recently adopted the
habit of replying without quoting the context for his reply. ....at
least he's not a top-poster.
loopers at least require some creative on-the-spot input from the
player and can be used musically and dynamically.
Kevin Van Sant
wrote in message
<1134835088.0e10128e65...@roc.usenetexchange.com> :
>I recently went to hear a guitarist that I respect and admire play a solo
>gig. Much to my dismay he was using a looper. He would play solo for a while
>and then play single lines over the section that he had just looped. I
>thought it was pretty lame.
at least there is still some creation going on with loopers. I don't
have a problem with guys doing what you've described as long as they
are still engaged musically in that they're doing and not just going
through the paces. It seems like most guys or GB bands I've seen use
tracks are totally uninspired and look as bored playing the music as I
feel hearing it.
charles robinson
mess around. I found it impractical for the type of gigs that I play but may
try it live again under different circumstances.
Charlie
"Kevin Van Sant" <kvan...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:4pnaq113jgapgjvf7...@4ax.com...
Kevin Van Sant
<robins...@comcast.net> wrote in message
<saCdnQy2O4U6-Tje...@comcast.com> :
I guess my hint about top-posting missed it's mark :)
Pt
My most recent band is rehearsing without a drummer.
Singer/keys, 2 guitars and bass.
Good drummers are hard to come by around here and most of them want to
play with a band that is ready to gig.
Back to the question.
Is there any type of recorded media that we can use as a drummer at
rehearsals.
Drum machines are out of the question.
How bout midi files?
Thanks.
Pt
paul
talking about loopers, lots of guys use loopers very creatively.
juru...@aol.com
singers appeared and sang over tracks from their sessions. What is
different
now is that musicians play along with them.
For now. Pretty soon they'll hit on the idea of hiring high school
kids to fake it for $7 an hour.
juru...@aol.com
How bout midi files?
They're easy enough to make, and programs like Power Trax include drum
patches you can cobble together. Or you could use the ones generated
by biab and tweak 'em a little bit.
Clif
mws...@insightbb.com
As I've posted on here before, I make heavy use of the Peter Erskine
Living Drums loops for solo jazz gigs:
<http://www.marksmart.net/gearhack/jazzpedalboard/jazzpedalboard.html#V2>
You might want to check these out, I thin it's the least fake-sounding
way to do drums without a real drummer.
I'm in the process of re-doing the setup with an Open Labs Neko (a
keyboard with a computer built in) so I can lay down Hammond organ with
the keyboards or horns played from a MIDI wind controller. I don't
think this is lame becaue I'm playing everything except the drum loops.
It gives me a chance to show off more of what I can do.
I have a basic looper working with the horns, this is what it sounds
like:
<http://www.marksmart.net/sounddesign/windsounds/reaktorbigband/SwingInAbMono.mp3>
Mark Smart
http://www.marksmart.net
Joe Finn
> Wow! I didn't know that. What I'm talking about here is the fact that when
> you are told you might be backing a vocalist on the job they are starting
> to appear with backing tracks instead of charts. The night after my
> original post it happened again with a different group (last night).
> Ironically the CD began to skip so it was a complete disaster :)
>
> Charlie
Now that you mention it that sort of thing happened to me on a big band job
several years ago. We were working a fancy ball and the leader brought in
this guy to cover a few rock tunes like Brown Eyed Girl, etc. He had his
background stuff on tape and the drummer played along live while the guy
played a guitar and sang. Unfortunately he missed his entrance and came in
late. His vocal was all out of sync with the recording and it was a real
train wreck.
The guys in the horn sections were sitting there shaking their heads in
disbelief. I wouldn't have believed it either but it really happened.
I heard Tony Bennett tell a similar story. He said he showed up to do a live
tv show back in the old days and the first thing he asked was, "Where's the
band?" They told him there was no band and that they wanted him to "lip
synch" along with a phonograph record. The show went forward despite Tony's
misgivings and sure as hell the record skipped. Tony said he's never worked
with recordings since. ........joe
charles robinson
the live musicians add a presence to the backing tracks .In those cases
they have expert soundmen and everything is blended well. On live gigs
though it is kind of haphazrd so anything can happen. Also it is
demoralizing to the musicians especially if they come expecting to back a
name singer only to find that they are going to play along with the session
tracks. In one such case a few months back the singer after rehearsing a few
tunes dropped the whole idea and just did the gig straight much to the
relief of the band.
Charlie
"Joe Finn" <J...@JoeFinn.net> wrote in message
news:1134966919.a64d609f86...@roc.usenetexchange.com...
RickH
charles robinson wrote:
> I just got in from my gig. Tonight we had to back a singer by playing along
> that I've had to do this type of thing so I'm begining to sense a trend. Are
> any of you guys running into this?
>
For all the small restaurant gigs around here the guys use midi, rarely
is there a band, usually a piano with midi and another singer. The
worst is when they are using midi tracks that have been floating around
for free on the internet, and laptop sound cards that make trumpets
sound like kazoos.
Max Leggett
news:1135019768.9...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Given that the punters are just out to be mindlessly entertained and the bar
owners need to make a profit, I think we're doomed. I remember seeing a duo
back in the early 80s using midi tracks in a bar, and they put out a sound -
top 40 - that certainly entertained the punters. Denis and I looked at each
other and asked how a 6 piece band could compete on price with that. It
can't. The average punter neither knows nor cares about music, s/he just
wants a soundtrack for their "lifestyle", and bar owners will give the
public what it wants at the lowest possible cost. And if I have a trio and
we play straight, and someone else comes in as a duo but with midi backing
tracks, orchestations, what have you, that closely resembles a 12 piece
studio band, then, all else being equal, I'm getting fired, cos the owner
can pay 1/3rd less and put more bums on seats with a bigger, more
commercially accessible - i.e., sounds like the radio - sound. The only
answer, as Jimmy Bruno says, is to be so good they can't ignore you. Easy
for him to say ... :-)
charles robinson
this now.
Charlie
"Max Leggett" <hepkatre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:IXDpf.1760$GR4....@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
juru...@aol.com
pianist who had some type of rhythm box built into his keyboard.
We laid it on the line as diplomatically as possible:
Nice you did that. I'd hate to see you beat the crap out of an
innocent horse just because some satanistic demagogue rode in on the
hapless beast. Your methods may be a little suspect but you do good
work! :o)
Clif
Pt
<hepkatre...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Given that the punters are just out to be mindlessly entertained and the bar
>owners need to make a profit, I think we're doomed. I remember seeing a duo
>back in the early 80s using midi tracks in a bar, and they put out a sound -
>top 40 - that certainly entertained the punters. Denis and I looked at each
>other and asked how a 6 piece band could compete on price with that. It
>can't. The average punter neither knows nor cares about music, s/he just
>wants a soundtrack for their "lifestyle", and bar owners will give the
>public what it wants at the lowest possible cost. And if I have a trio and
>we play straight, and someone else comes in as a duo but with midi backing
>tracks, orchestations, what have you, that closely resembles a 12 piece
>studio band, then, all else being equal, I'm getting fired, cos the owner
>can pay 1/3rd less and put more bums on seats with a bigger, more
>commercially accessible - i.e., sounds like the radio - sound. The only
>answer, as Jimmy Bruno says, is to be so good they can't ignore you. Easy
>for him to say ... :-)
I think you are right Max.
It hasn't come to this yet in my area but it could happen overnight.
The owners are what rules the music.
I recall when people actually went out to dig live music.
But since the onslaught of Karaoke things have changed dramatically.
Pt
Joe Finn
>
> For all the small restaurant gigs around here the guys use midi, rarely
> is there a band, usually a piano with midi and another singer. The
> worst is when they are using midi tracks that have been floating around
> for free on the internet, and laptop sound cards that make trumpets
> sound like kazoos.
I've heard lots of great musicians in restaurants over the years: Herbie
Hancock, Bucky Pizzarelli, Gerry Mulligan, etc. There is nothing that I'm
aware of about the restaurant business that precludes the presentation of
top quality music. In fact certain people in the restaurant game are among
the music's biggest supporters.
I'm sure that what you describe not inaccurate. There are certainly people
somewhere who are happy to take their meals to the tune of laptop midi
kazoofickated trumpets. It doesn't seem like much of a business plan to me.
High quality will always have a market, though. That goes for food, music,
you name it. ....joe
charles robinson
about weren't commecial jobs,they were
jazz gigs.What is happening is that a lot of singers have tunes that are
fusion oriented with synths and Jaco style bass players or large backing
orchestras with strings etc.on their CDs.There is no way that they can get
that type of backing from upright bass, guitar, piano, drums and saxophone.
Many of them have worked in the play productions that use tracks in
combination with musicians thus they are aware of this technology. So it is
they who often push this so that the sound that they get is the one on their
CD.
Charlie
"Max Leggett" <hepkatre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:IXDpf.1760$GR4....@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
RickH
I'm in a rural area, in Chicago it's different of course. The bowling
alley does have a regular rock trio, and a local biker bar has country
groups. But the date night places are all "one man band" acts except
on New Years Eve.
Pt
<pass...@windcrestsoftware.com> wrote:
>I'm in a rural area, in Chicago it's different of course. The bowling
>alley does have a regular rock trio, and a local biker bar has country
>groups. But the date night places are all "one man band" acts except
>on New Years Eve.
What suburb are you in?
There are places that have good bands in Downers Grove, Naperville,
Glen Elyn, Palatine, Oak Park, Berwyn, Beverly (when James S plays at
Joe Bailey's), Lemont, Lisle, St Charles.
Hell there are even good bands out here in Oregon (Il).
Where you at, boy?
Pt
RickH
I know the suburbs you mentioned and they are all middle upper class
suburbs and closer to Chicago, and the expectations of the patrons are
different. I'm on the border of Will and Kankakee counties between
Manteno and Peotone, we get restaurants like Dennys and McDonalds.
About a year ago a new place opened up in Mokena that we liked going to
called Capone's, for the first 6 months they had jazz quintets, gypsy
jazz, etc. Now they are mostly soloacts with midi or just a piano
player, except they bring in a Frank Sinatra impersonator on New Years
and charge an arm and a leg to get in.
This area is starved for entertainment, the midi/soloacts are packing
the people in and giving them something to dance to and the people dont
know any better so they think this is as good as it gets. If a live
person is playing jazz music at all in a restaurant here it is
considered high class and something special, because you just dont see
it, ever.
Pt
<pass...@windcrestsoftware.com> wrote:
>
> If a live
>person is playing jazz music at all in a restaurant here it is
>considered high class and something special, because you just dont see
>it, ever.
That's too bad.
I hope it isn't the wave of the future.
I lived in the Chicago suburbs most of my life.
Moved out to rural Illinois 3 years ago.
Out here in Ogle County people don't even jnow what jazz is.
Every once in a while at a gig I'll throw a couple jazz tunes in.
The people like it but they are lost.
Like "What is that music"?
I could never get by with an entire gig of jazz.
I am less than 100 miles from Chicago and it is hard to believe how
different the people are here.
I play a lot of gigs in the Chicago area and even though it is a lot
of driving I have the time of my life.
Out here I never know what to expect.
Pt
RickH
I always check out the crowd when there is jazz music and they love it
and appreciate it and actually know the common standards, but the
restaurants have this mindset of only booking midi/pop or one of the of
the many Irish singer/blue-comedy acts or karaoke. It's not really a
wave of the future, more like a never was for jazz. It's rare for a
restaurant to have anything approaching that "classy" feel that a jazz
combo brings around here, when I was single there were simply no
choices for a romantic place to eat, you would have to drive the 100
miles to Chicago.