m7b13 chords?

[matt]

I'm playing with an advanced saxophonist that uses m7b13 chords and
they are new to me.
The tune I'm wondering about is pretty much in Eb but ends on a
Cm7b13.
From this, I concluded that one might play C aeolian on it.

Am I right in concluding that a m7b13 is essentially a 'modern' minor
sound with an 'unsettled' b13 extension that might take a little while
to hear as consonant?
- kind of like how it took me a while to hear a nat. 9 on a locrian
chord as a good note…?

Another place I see a similar chord (Fadd9/A) is on a tune like Lionel
Louekes' Bennys' Tune:
Bma7#11, Bb-11, Fadd9/A, Ab13sus, Ebadd9/G, Gb13sus, etc.

The voicing I'm talking about for Gm7b13 or Ebadd9/G is 3x334x.

[rpjazzguitar]

I usually see that voicing notated as m7#5. If it's a b13, does that
mean the pianist can play a natural 5th also?

[TD]

Not Aeolian, per se, but Locrian #2 ot Locrian natch 2, depending on
how you wish to view it. C-7b13 best derived from Eb Melodic Minor
Scale Realm.

The voicing you speak of is usually referred to as min7#5, but you can
call it min7b13 as well. "Well they often call me Speedo, but my real
name is Mr. Earl."

Paradoxically, I don't consider this a very "jazzy" voicing. But, it
can be utilized in a jazz situation when surrounded by complimentary
jazz-friendly harmonies. It is a voicing that is derived from the
upper partials of min7b5 chord. Hence, the minor 13th. If we were to
place C-7b5 on the staff, and continue above the staff thru the upper
partials, we have bass to soprano: C Eb Gb Bb D F Ab// Place the
notes on and above the staff to produce a better perspective. The full
chord produces C-11(b5,b13). You are merely choosing intervals that
serve your situation best thus producing C-7#5. The #5 replaces the
b5, much akin to #9 replacing the b9 in C7 altered voicing.

The intervls fall as such from the root: C to Eb =minor 3rd, C to Gb
=diminished 5th, C to Bb = minor 7th, C to D = maj 9th, C to F = P11,
and C to Ab = *b13*//

As aforesaid, we usually refer to your change as C-7#5. Root, b3, #5,
b7 instead of R, b3, b5, b7. The b5 is displaced by the octave
displaced b13.

The chord used in isolation is really sounding as Ab(add 9) over C.
So, depending upon surrounding entities, you can draw your harmony
from Abmajor scale harmony, as well. Hearing as Phyrigian. But for me,
the Db in the upper partial mix irks me to favor Melodic Minor Scale
Realm.

-TD

[jorgemg1984]

Cm7b13 would indicate aeolian to me. Actually I think dorian is way
overplayed in minor chords on tonal situations (Im7) - to me its kind
of like always playing lydian on Imaj7 chords... Yes the b13 (F on
Am7) is a hard note as its the 4 of Cmaj7 (also F). They both like to
go down to E.

People play dorian a lot because of modal tunes I guess and because
minor chords take tension better than major chords. But when I play a
tune like Summertime, where I clearly feel the Im7 I can easily play
it aeolian - the b6 is already there usually before - as b5 on the
IIm7b5 and b9 on the V7alt.

[matt]

> I usually see that voicing notated as m7#5.  If it's a b13, does that
> mean the pianist can play a natural 5th also?

what pianist?
ha, don't sell guitarists short (if I read you right), we can play
that voicing too - 3x374x or x1088810 (both incomplete i know).

I see m7#5 too - but in a different context than I am talking about.
I see m7#5 in the 'moving 5th on a minor chord' vamp on Dear Old
Stockholm for example.

[matt]

> -TD

thanks for the thoughtful response Tony.
but the nomenclature 'm7b13' suggest a nat 5, no?
(the voicing was mine, the sax player definitely calls for 'm7b13')
I'll definitely try your suggestion tho.

[Joey Goldstein]

On 10/28/2011 7:26 PM, matt wrote:
> I'm playing with an advanced saxophonist that uses m7b13 chords and
> they are new to me.
> The tune I'm wondering about is pretty much in Eb but ends on a
> Cm7b13.
> From this, I concluded that one might play C aeolian on it.
>
> Am I right in concluding that a m7b13 is essentially a 'modern' minor
> sound with an 'unsettled' b13 extension

Yes.
Part of the idea is to use what would normally be an avoid-note, if
emphasized melodically on top of a min7 chord, within the chord itself
thereby making its avoid-note qualities moot.

Normally, on a Cm7 chord (with no omissions), an Ab sounded above the
main body of the chord voicing will create a b9 interval with the
chord's P5th, G.
But by voicing the chord with the Ab within it, according to a few
not-too-unsettling potential voicings, it makes the Ab much more
suitable melodically.
One trick is to voice the Ab below the G (eg. C Ab Bb Eb G).
Another is to put them right next to each other as a cluster (eg. C G Ab
Eb Bb).
Essentially both these chords are really Abmaj9/C and personally
speaking, most of the time, I'd rather see it notated that way as
opposed to Cm7(addb6) or sim.

Sometimes it involves quartal voicings of the aeolian scale which in a
modal jazz setting can each be seen as partial voicings of the central
chord or mode.
Eg.
C F Bb Eb
D G C F
Eb Ab D G * (Normally, as a voicing of Cm7 this chord would need to
resolve into a chord that does not contain an Ab. But in a modal C
aeolian setting this chord is perfectly acceptable w/o needing to
resolve. Still, most guys will resolve it anyway for the reasons
discussed below.)

The other reason why Ab is deemed as an avoid note on Cm7 is because
when Cm7 is functioning as a tonic Im7 chord (i.e. the chord of
rest/repose in the key of C minor) the presence of an Ab tends to
destroy its Tonic function (i.e. it sounds too unsettled to be a chord
of rest).
In the key of C minor the note Ab is the strongest indicator for
Subdominant function and works against Tonic function in the key.
But if the music is not key-based music (eg. in modal music) this is
less of an issue.

> that might take a little while
> to hear as consonant?
> - kind of like how it took me a while to hear a nat. 9 on a locrian
> chord as a good note…?
>
> Another place I see a similar chord (Fadd9/A) is on a tune like Lionel
> Louekes' Bennys' Tune:
> Bma7#11, Bb-11, Fadd9/A, Ab13sus, Ebadd9/G, Gb13sus, etc.
>
> The voicing I'm talking about for Gm7b13 or Ebadd9/G is 3x334x.

--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
<http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/AudioClips/audio.htm>
joegold AT primus DOT ca

[TD]

No.

[matt]

> Actually I think dorian is way
> overplayed in minor chords on tonal situations (Im7)

agreed.
like on Satin Doll, even Joe Pass 'dorian-izes' the E-7 even tho we
are in C.
Not being critical here - 'sometimes I think 'dorian-izing' is part
of
common practice jazz harmony.

[Joey Goldstein]

Dorian on Im7 became common during the modal jazz era and became
standard practice in rock and pop as well.
In classical music the tonic chord in minor was always a triad and the
scale associated most closely with it was the natural minor (aka
aeolian) scale.
But classical guys would never include a b7 in a final resting chord
because, to them, min7 intervals were in need or resolution. A final
chord can't be in need of resolution.
In earlier jazz, including bebop, the most common version of Im is Im6,
and the scales most closely associated with it were melodic minor or dorian.
Mel min on Im6 has one advantage over dorian.
On Im6, the b7 of the dorian scale is an avoid-note because it clashes
with the 6th below it.
The mel min scale has a maj 7th in it instead which blends into the min6
chord better.

[TD]

Just like you do not have 5 in C-7b5, you do not have 5 in C-7b13.
Look closer at what I have mapped out for you. It is a sub for C-7b5.
If you state, C-7 (add b13) that is another story ( different chord)
and I will assume the 5th is there in the chord. Study the upper
partials as I had spelled out for you.

The upper partials of C-7b5 produce the ab, the "b13". It is all there
in black and white.

-TD

[rpjazzguitar]

You can play x36343.

Root, #5 b7 b3 and 5.

[matt]

> You can play x36343.
>
> Root, #5 b7 b3 and 5.

nice!

[rpjazzguitar]

BTW, Toninho Horta uses this chord a lot. So does, I think, Dori
Caymmi.

[matt]

> Joey Goldstein

I was hoping you'd respond - great stuff!

[bsuth...@cox.net]

On Oct 28, 10:35 pm, matt <matelomit...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Joey Goldstein
>
> I was hoping you'd respond - great stuff!

Hi Matt,

It depends on context. The chord does not define the scale (that is
the "paint by numbers approach to jazz), it is important to know where/
why the chord exists. The scale defines the chord in my experience. I
call it a a mi7b6 and not mi7#5, as in Bm(m6), and it is a very common
tonality. I agree with TD that it goes to the mi7b5 tonally, a sub-
dominant most of the time. A really cool chord is the mi(maj7b13).
This is a minor tonic chord typically. Now the scale that produces
this is the harmonic minor, so Bm(maj7b13) DOES mean there is a 5th
since the scale is B harmonic minor. This is like a bar chord on the
7th fret starting on the low E(sixth string):

B (tonic), G (b13), A#( maj7), D( mi3), F# (5th), B (tonic).

Tweak the volume control hi-low real fast and you've got a Hollywood
"Twin Peaks" tension .. LOL.

[Agamemnon]

On Fri, 28 Oct 2011 17:58:31 -0700 (PDT), jorgemg1984
<jorge...@gmail.com> wrote:
> tune like Summertime, where I clearly feel the Im7 I can easily play
> it aeolian - the b6 is already there usually before - as b5 on the
> IIm7b5 and b9 on the V7alt.

I thought that the original first chord of "Summertime" was actually
Cm6.

[Fuzztone, Ammo]

On Oct 28, 6:45 pm, Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> On 10/28/2011 9:37 PM, matt wrote:
> >> Actually I think dorian is way
> >> overplayed in minor chords on tonal situations (Im7)

> Dorian on Im7 became common during the modal jazz era and became
> standard practice in rock and pop as well.
> In classical music the tonic chord in minor was always a triad and the
> scale associated most closely with it was the natural minor (aka
> aeolian) scale.
> But classical guys would never include a b7 in a final resting chord
> because, to them, min7 intervals were in need or resolution. A final
> chord can't be in need of resolution.
> In earlier jazz, including bebop, the most common version of Im is Im6,
> and the scales most closely associated with it were melodic minor or dorian.
> Mel min on Im6 has one advantage over dorian.
> On Im6, the b7 of the dorian scale is an avoid-note because it clashes
> with the 6th below it.
> The mel min scale has a maj 7th in it instead which blends into the min6
> chord better.
>
> --
> Joey Goldstein

That's great stuff, Joey.
My lead player told me this week he uses b13 a lot, and I told him I
preferred #5.
He said my chord didn't include the b7. I thought that was
preposterous.
All 13th chords must contain a 7th.

Interesting no-one has brought up Harmonic Minor (containing b6 and
M7).
Nor any of the Bebop dominant scales (which could contain a 5, b13, 6,
b7).
Nor the Spanish or Middle Eastern scales which may contain either or
both major and minor thirds, sevenths and seconds, but not a major
sixth.
The Dorian is unique in this regard, but it is not as groovy as the
Jazz Minor (with Ma6 and Ma7).

No, the b13 is way too unsettling; I can't feature it as a tonic
chord.
I will, however, keep my ears open and let my mind be changed.
Ammo

[jorgemg1984]

The b13 is as unsettling in a minor7 chord as the 4 in a major7 chord
imo.

[TD]

It is already there. If anyone cares to read through this stuff: It is
a Locrian-type chord (altered locrian); "a chord of the Locrian."
Musicians (or learners) can change the configurations of hearing and
viewing (thus thinking) by forming voicing jumbles on into various
tone collections plus the concept of "added tones", but ***as is***,
it is a chord of the Locrian, meaning non-P5. If I see this, D-7b13 on
a chart where my gig would be on the line if I misread it, I would not
place a P5 in the voicing. If context permitted, I could put b5 and #5
in that voicing,as well. If Matt is utilizing the P5 with C-7, then
the change is an Abmajor9 type change that is inverted (C in bass) and
this will lend itself to a sus type sound for other purposes, which it
appears to me that he was looking for in the first place. If he
decides to explore C-7b13 (more commonly C-7#5), then he can break
it's chord-stacked-thirds-yield (built in 3rds and carrying out a
scale from the bass notes beginning on C) into basic triads. Then
procceed to name them, observe, arpeggiate and assimilate into line
playing: Cdim, Ebmin, Gbaug, Bbmaj, Ddim, Fmi, and Abmaj. Notice that
the last three triads contain the b13. None contain G natural.

If we take the last three triads ( have some one simply comp C-7b13)
and arppegiate them as: D F Ab, F Ab C, Ab C Eb (plus add D dim again
an octave higher) D F Ab, making four groups of triads for one bar,
then playing (sustaining) an altered B7/D# ( bass to soprano:
D#,A,D,G,B<in place of F7) for one bar, then resolve into Bb6/9 (B to
S: Bb,D,G,C,F,A,) we hear a cool way of both outlining and putting the
C-7b13 (essentially a weak voicing) to cadential use. If non-cadential
and used as a surprise ending change, I would not look at it as
Aeolian, but I can see how others may. I would see it as going to a IV
major9 1st inversion and not iv-7b13. In other words, the "G", that
Matt may yearn for, belongs to Abmaj and not the C-7b13 a ka "My heart
Belongs to Daddysville." But hell, that's just my opinion, man.

-TD

[rpjazzguitar]

In looking over some charts, I find a few uses of the chord.

The first chord in my chart of Tom Jobim's Ela E Carioca (I don't know
if this chart is of the original arrangement) is G#m7#5, followed by
Gm6, F#m7#5 Bm9 E13 E7b13 Asus A7b9 F#/D. I'm not well versed in
theory, but it seems like a iiim in a iii vi ii v.

I see Bm7#5 in Dori Caymmi's Forever Lover. Gmaj9 A7sus Dmaj9/A Bm7#5
F#m7/A Gmaj9. The Bm7#5 does not feel like a tonic. I don't know how
to analyze it.

Again in Mandarim by Chico Pinheiro. Em69 A#m7#5 Gmaj7/B Clyd C#m9b5
etc.

I'm trying to understand the relationship of each of these m7#5 chords
to an underlying scale. Is it the same?

[jorgemg1984]

On Oct 29, 5:15 pm, Agamemnon <f...@fakeemail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Oct 2011 17:58:31 -0700 (PDT), jorgemg1984
>

> <jorgemg1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > tune like Summertime, where I clearly feel the Im7 I can easily play
> > it aeolian - the b6 is already there usually before - as b5 on the
> > IIm7b5 and b9 on the V7alt.
>
> I thought that the original first chord of "Summertime" was actually
> Cm6.

The melody play the 5 and the b3, the 6 is always dubious... you can
use both imo - I just think everyone uses m6 sounds a little too much
and there's no reason for not using the aeolian scale there even with
its avoid note. Its like playing always Lydian on the C6 of All of Me.
You can do it but the major scale also sounds good!

[Bg]

On Oct 28, 4:26 pm, matt <matelomit...@gmail.com> wrote:

I've never seen that chord on a chart, but use it all the time in the
same way as GMin7b5, often wiggling back and forth between the b5 and
and the note one tone above it, and then using that same wiggle on the
C7 chord which usually follows.
Bg

[2cts]

rpjazzguitar wrote:

> In looking over some charts, I find a few uses of the chord.
>
> The first chord in my chart of Tom Jobim's Ela E Carioca (I don't know
> if this chart is of the original arrangement) is G#m7#5, followed by
> Gm6, F#m7#5 Bm9 E13 E7b13 Asus A7b9 F#/D. I'm not well versed in
> theory, but it seems like a iiim in a iii vi ii v.
>
> I see Bm7#5 in Dori Caymmi's Forever Lover. Gmaj9 A7sus Dmaj9/A Bm7#5
> F#m7/A Gmaj9. The Bm7#5 does not feel like a tonic. I don't know how
> to analyze it.
>
> Again in Mandarim by Chico Pinheiro. Em69 A#m7#5 Gmaj7/B Clyd C#m9b5
> etc.

What does Clyd mean, please?

[TD]

> -TD- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

**I meant to write that I would not look at it as vi-7b13 in that
context.

[rpjazzguitar]

Clyd, according to the composer, means that you choose the notes you
want from a Clydian scale (same notes as Gmajor). It often amounts to
a Cmaj7#11, at least when I'm doing it.

My guess is that the voicings might be played 0x567x 6x667x 7x577x
8x997x 9x988x

or maybe

0x0022 x11122 x22232 x32232 x45443

[2cts]

rpjazzguitar wrote:

> Clyd, according to the composer, means that you choose the notes you
> want from a Clydian scale (same notes as Gmajor).

Thanks! (I thougt that so.)

> It often amounts to a Cmaj7#11, at least when I'm doing it.

Where Cmaj7#11 is the same as Cmaj7b13, right?

> My guess is that the voicings might be played 0x567x 6x667x 7x577x
> 8x997x 9x988x
>
> or maybe
>
> 0x0022 x11122 x22232 x32232 x45443

I enjoyed the series of chords that you have extracted as the seem
pretty "placative" to me. The best kind of a crash course I imagine.

[2cts]

[ Please see the typo marked (*) below ]

rpjazzguitar wrote:

> Clyd, according to the composer, means that you choose the notes you
> want from a Clydian scale (same notes as Gmajor).

Thanks! (I thougt that so.)

> It often amounts to a Cmaj7#11, at least when I'm doing it.

Where Cmaj7#11 is the same as Cmaj7b13, right?

> My guess is that the voicings might be played 0x567x 6x667x 7x577x
> 8x997x 9x988x
>
> or maybe
>
> 0x0022 x11122 x22232 x32232 x45443

(*)

I enjoyed the series of chords that you have extracted as the seem
pretty "placative" to me. The best kind of a crash course I imagine.

"Placative" in german means pithy, bold and simple, striking,...
so thats what I meant.

[rpjazzguitar]

> > It often amounts to a Cmaj7#11, at least when I'm doing it.
>
> Where Cmaj7#11 is the same as Cmaj7b13, right?

Not the same. #11 is F#. b13 is Ab. Also, Clyd scale does not contain
an Ab.

This chord sequence is Chico Pinheiro's. He is a remarkable composer
and a remarkable guitarist. Lots of his stuff is on youtube.

I don't know if he plays it using the voices I listed. Also, no matter
how complex or difficut the chords, he seems to be able to play the
sequences in many different ways. He's got skills.

He'll be touring Europe next month.

[2cts]

rpjazzguitar wrote:

>>> It often amounts to a Cmaj7#11, at least when I'm doing it.
>>
>> Where Cmaj7#11 is the same as Cmaj7b13, right?
>
> Not the same. #11 is F#. b13 is Ab.

Oooops, of course, I obviously was "counting" with Cmaj7#11 = Cmaj7b12...

> Also, Clyd scale does not contain an Ab.

> This chord sequence is Chico Pinheiro's. He is a remarkable composer
> and a remarkable guitarist. Lots of his stuff is on youtube.
>
> I don't know if he plays it using the voices I listed. Also, no matter
> how complex or difficut the chords, he seems to be able to play the
> sequences in many different ways. He's got skills.
>
> He'll be touring Europe next month.

Me too ;)
Thanks.

[thomas]

I love that voicing. I would usually play it as an AbMaj sound or an
Fmin sound.

[2cts]

thomas wrote:

> On Oct 29, 12:00�am, matt <matelomit...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> You can play x36343.
>>
>>> Root, #5 b7 b3 and 5.
>>
>> nice!
>
> I love that voicing. I would usually play it as an AbMaj

LOL. (With the 3 in the bass ;)

> sound or an Fmin sound.

SCNR...

[Joey Goldstein]

In my experience the chord symbols "Xm7(b13)", "Xm7(b6)", "Xm7(addb6)",
etc. are most often used as a way of attempting to tell the soloist that
the aeolian minor scale, as opposed to some other min7 applicable
chord-scale, is to be treated as the basis for melodic improvisation
over that chord.
And it also tells the soloist that he can place more emphasis on the b6
than he normally would on a min7 chord.
It also tells the accompanist that he is more free to include the b6
within his voicings.
This does not mean that the soloist (or the accompanist) is restricted
*only* to the notes of the aeolian scale.
All it means is that the basic fundamental colour at that point in the
piece is intended to be aeolian.
The entire chromatic scale can *always* be utilized on *any* chord no
matter what its default colour happens to be.

[thomas]

On Oct 29, 5:02 pm, 2cts wrote:
> thomas wrote:
> > On Oct 29, 12:00 am, matt <matelomit...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> You can play x36343.
>
> >>> Root, #5 b7 b3 and 5.
>
> >> nice!
>
> > I love that voicing. I would usually play it as an AbMaj
>
> LOL. (With the 3 in the bass ;)

It sounds better higher up on the neck.

> > sound or an Fmin sound.
>
> SCNR...

No idea what that means.

[2cts]

I just were go do to make sport of 3+major7 = m7b13
(So what would all these jazz harmony serve for besides classicx, sorry ;)

[jorgemg1984]

The first chord on Ela é Carioca would be G#m7b5 and then Gm6 and so
on... Its the classic #IVm7b5 IVm - your chart is not right. And its
usually played in C not D. Bossa Nova is even more badly treated than
standards on charts which I thought was impossible.

[Keith Freeman]

> He said my chord didn't include the b7. I thought that was
> preposterous.
> All 13th chords must contain a 7th.

Quite, that's the whole point of using numbers above 8, it means they are
7th chords!

-Keith

Clips, Portable Changes, tips etc.: www.keithfreemantrio.nl
e-mail: info AT keithfreemantrio DOT nl

[2cts]

Keith Freeman wrote:
>> He said my chord didn't include the b7. I thought that was
>> preposterous.
>> All 13th chords must contain a 7th.
> Quite, that's the whole point of using numbers above 8, it means they are
> 7th chords!

Yes.

> Clips, Portable Changes, tips etc.: www.keithfreemantrio.nl
> e-mail: info AT keithfreemantrio DOT nl

Another way of thinking that would be to say things like

Quite, that's the whole point of using numbers above 9, it means
they are 9th chords (which could add one "voicing" indeed...).

[bsuth...@cox.net]

Cool observations. You're amazing. Thanks. I printed out your post and
put it in my note book. That is one cool lesson you posted for us.

Personally, at my beginner level if I saw that chord on a chart,
C-7#5, first: I'd think that the chart was wrong. Next I would dump
the minor 7 and play a Cmi(mi6) or Cmi7b5. This chord could be a
tonic with a different name sounds like a 6/9 tonic to me and no major/
minor quality, out of context just stand alone of course. And it also
looks and sounds like a Bb11, with 5,7,9,11 and wants to resolve at
Eb. However, when I have seen this chord it is usually in a mi7b5 line
with the melody as the #5 to b5.

Thanks TD !! You're priceless. I don't understand all of that modal
stuff. I need to read Joey's book some more.

[rpjazzguitar]

I'm not absolutely certain, but I think the chart I'm looking at is an
arrangement by Marcos Silva (Airto, Flora, Leny Andrade, Joyce,
Toninho Horta, Dori, Danilo and Nana Caymmi etc etc).

Almir Chediak's book has it in E major with the first chord F#7/A#.
x1o22x

A# E G C# F#

The A#m7#5 voicing would be A# G# C# F#.

So, the main differences are G vs. G# and whether to play the E.

I like the G#.

I don't see it as bad treatment of Tom Jobim, rather, a
reharmonization by a great musician from Rio.

[rpjazzguitar]

> stuff. I need to read Joey's book some more.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

In some cases the composer absolutely wants a #5 in that chord. It is
a very distinctive sounding chord. The tunes I listed above include
this chord - specified by the composer.

In those situations the m7b5 is not a substitute IMO. The problem with
calling it Bb11 is that the bassist is likely to play Bb, not C -- and
that completely changes the harmony. The examples I gave are all from
Brazilian music where the convention seems to be to always have the
bass note specified as the first part of the chord name or, sometimes,
with a slash. The Brazilians will also sometimes write 4/7 or other
times 7/4, which seems to reflect which voice the composer wants above
the other.

[2cts]

When finishing this words I will add how right you by certainty are...

[Joey Goldstein]

In my experience, most people, when encountering a Cm7#5 chord symbol
would play "Ab(add9)/C" aka "Absus2/C.
The chord-scale that makes the most sense on this chord would be
dictated by context but the usual suspects would be C aeolian or C phrygian.
If the chord is occurring in a setting where Cm7b5 is diatonic to the
key (eg. Cm7#5 in the key of Db major or Bb minor) then C locrian or C
locrian #2 might be called for.

I haven't really tried to follow TD's comments or his logic in this
thread, but I suspect that he and I might be disagreeing here.

[Joey Goldstein]

And in my experience Cm7(b13) and Cm7#5 are *not* the same chord,
although many writers, some of them quite accomplished writers, will
treat them as the same chord.
I.e. Cm7(b13) can, and probably should, contain the P5th, G, while Cm7#5
should not.
But we don't live in a world where everybody follows that "rule".
Remember that chord symbol notation is a very imprecise form of harmonic
*shorthand*. It is deliberately imprecise. Writers wanting harmonic
precision need to use standard notation for their chords, not chord symbols.
People reading chord symbol notation effectively, have to have a certain
level of musical experience so that they understand what the appropriate
sounds are that are expected of them. The more experience, the better.
Writers can try to make their chord symbols as precise and logical as
possible, but real music will always find a way to subvert those good
intentions.

[2cts]

Yes. For instance: me likes Bach

[Bg]

>
> You can play x36343.
>
> Root, #5 b7 b3 and 5.

Wow, Nice, but to my ear, it doesn't want to move to F, but rather to
Eb?
Bg

[Bg]

>
> What does Clyd mean, please?
>
>

C Lydian.
Bg

[Bg]

However, when I have seen this chord it is usually in a mi7b5 line
> with the melody as the  #5 to b5.

Exactly,
Bg

[jorgemg1984]

The versions I have heard clearly played G#m7b5. When I lived in
Brasil I played that song but I don't record it very well... :/

Sorry didn't mean to say your chart badly treated Jobim`s music but
many do - including Chediak, those books are absolutely terrible.
There is an excellent edition of Jobim`s music organized by Paulo
Jobim with 6 volumes I think - with all the chords right!! You almost
have an heart attack when you compare with Corcovado on the Real
Book..

[rpjazzguitar]

I can hear that too. It feels like Cm7#5 to some dominant sound maybe
B7 , then Fm7 Bb7 Eb. But, mostly, I hear it used in ways (like in the
earlier post) that don't seem quite as traditional.

[jorgemg1984]

If the chord has a b5 and # 5 its always dubious... on a locrian chord
you should call it b5 and b13 because the b5 is the fifth and the b13
the sixth. Cm7b5(b13) would be a good way to put it. On Altered chords
you have sort of the same issue but I like #11 and b13 better than b5
and #5. #5 always leads to the whole tone scale (but the altered scale
is weird because the correct spelling would be 1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7).
If its aeolian b13 is also the right choice since you already have a 5.

[rpjazzguitar]

> If its aeolian b13 is also the right choice since you already have a 5.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

I'm not enough of a theoretician for this, but ...

Try x14121. That's Bbm7b13. I call it that because it has the P5 and
b13. I'm not sure it's a great name for it, since the #5 is in the
middle of the voicing and the 5 is a maj7 interval above it.

Then, try x14120. Now it has the #11 and the #5. It's far more
dissonant. Or try 6x6670.

[rpjazzguitar]

> Book..- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Thank you for this. I didn't know about Paulo Jobim.

I had heard that Chediak worked with the composers and had the chords
right, but I'm going to check out the other books.

Anyway, the m7#5 in Ela E Carioca works, whether or not it's original.
Which allows us to discuss what scale it comes from.

[TD]

> dissonant. Or try 6x6670.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

I don't call it that and I am not alone. But you can.

[thomas]

On Oct 29, 5:44 pm, 2cts wrote:
>
> I just were go do to make sport of 3+major7 = m7b13
> (So what would all these jazz harmony serve for besides classicx, sorry ;)

If you're having fun with our loose use of nomenclature, have at it.
What Tony posted was a good sounding voicing that works in a variety
of harmonic situations--Cmin, Fmin, AbMaj, and elsewhere. You can call
it whatever you want. It still sounds good.

[2cts]

thomas wrote:

Yess...

[Fuzztone, Ammo]

On Oct 29, 4:47 pm, Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> (SNIP) Cm7(b13) can, and probably should, contain the P5th, G, while Cm7#5
> should not.
> Joey Goldstein

Yes. That is the nut of this problem. Thanks Joey, you always make
theory very clear.
Ammo

[Keith Freeman]

2cts wrote in news:201110292224.UTC.j8hufh$oah$1...@tioat.net:

> Another way of thinking that would be to say things like
>
> Quite, that's the whole point of using numbers above 9, it means
> they are 9th chords

... except that that's not always true. A 9th may not be wanted in an 11th
chord, for instance.

-Keith

[2cts]

Keith Freeman wrote:

> 2cts wrote

>
>> Another way of thinking that would be to say things like
>>
>> Quite, that's the whole point of using numbers above 9, it means
>> they are 9th chords
>
> ... except that that's not always true. A 9th may not be wanted in an 11th
> chord, for instance.

Ok, but this requires that you write down whether you want, for instance,
a 9th may not be wanted in an 11th chord or else the jazz notation makes
no consistent sense, which is the case because you write it not down but
you permit it (also) to be accidential even without concretely dictate it.

(Ok, I have no problem with the circumstance jazz notation often makes
no precise sense as that's just integral part of the jazz nowadays.)

[Tim McNamara]

In article <Xns9F8E997D96D3Dk...@212.54.40.12>,

Keith Freeman <x...@x.net> wrote:

> 2cts wrote in news:201110292224.UTC.j8hufh$oah$1...@tioat.net:
>
> > Another way of thinking that would be to say things like
> >
> > Quite, that's the whole point of using numbers above 9, it means
> > they are 9th chords
>
> ... except that that's not always true. A 9th may not be wanted in an
> 11th chord, for instance.

On a guitar you are usually choosing some notes to leave out of chords
with a lot of upper extensions because there are only six strings and
many complete voicings are impractical or impossible. Leaving out 5th
is commonly done for several reasons. In an 11th chord, leaving out the
9th is common; in a 13th chord, leaving out the 9th and/or the 11th is
common. Etc.

Ed Bickert used a b9th voicing that left out the b7th (and put the 9th
as the lowest tone- specifically the opening chords of "Squeeze Me" on
"Pure Desmond").

We pick the notes that are essential in the context of the moment.

--
Your time is limited. Don't waste it living someone else's life.

Steve Jobs 1955-2011

[2cts]

Tim McNamara wrote:
> Keith Freeman <x...@x.net> wrote:
>> 2cts wrote
>>

>>> Another way of thinking that would be to say things like
>>>
>>> Quite, that's the whole point of using numbers above 9, it means
>>> they are 9th chords
>>
>> ... except that that's not always true. A 9th may not be wanted in an
>> 11th chord, for instance.
>
> On a guitar you are usually choosing some notes to leave out of chords
> with a lot of upper extensions because there are only six strings and
> many complete voicings are impractical or impossible.

Ok, but, on the other hand, the Real Book is not for guitar only...

> Leaving out 5th is commonly done for several reasons.

This is "even" the case in other music, as in "classics"...

> In an 11th chord, leaving out the 9th is common; in a 13th chord,
> leaving out the 9th and/or the 11th is common. Etc.

But just on the guitar...

It is possible, of course, to write that down in a precise way, for instance
B7add11 or B9add13. (Or even B7add11adlib9 or B7add13adlib11 ;)

> We pick the notes that are essential in the context of the moment.

Of course, but that might not always the be same as the composer wants.

[rpjazzguitar]

This is a little off center, but I've spent a fair amount of time
playing music with composers (in classes), reading their charts.

Some are very specific about what they want, in which case they write
out standard notation -- every note. One composer/arranger I work with
plays all the rhythm section instruments, so his voicings work on
guitar -- if you can figure out how he fingered the chords.

I'm taking a class now from a composer whose charts are suggestive,
but don't even attempt to put all the harmony on the page. With the
chart in front of me, I still have to spend time with the recording to
figure out the "other" chords.

Still another composer (one whose name you'd know), writes out very
specific voicings, but they aren't always what he actually plays. In
fact, every one of these composers varies what he actually plays all
the time. And, while he's a well known guitarist, he often writes on
piano, so the voices do not necessarily work on guitar.

Anyway, the point is, that I'd like to believe there's a "right"
answer to these questions, but, in practice, it doesn't seem to be
that simple.

[2cts]

rpjazzguitar wrote:

> ... In fact, every one of these composers varies..

That was meant when I said "what the composer wants" as composers,
being artists, have got their own free wills.

> Anyway, the point is, that I'd like to believe there's a "right"
> answer to these questions

Which questions?

B13 means B13 including 7 and 11, B7add13 means B7 plus 13 no 7, etc.

> but, in practice, it doesn't seem to be that simple.

"Thats" because improvisation includes the interpretation of harmony
as well, at least as long as a band leader, if any, admits it.

And another thing ar, finally, unwritten rules, or what they think are,
that can become kind of a tradition sometimes.

[2cts]

[ the typo "B7 plus 13 no 7" was corrected to -> "B7 plus 13 no 11" ]

rpjazzguitar wrote:

> ... In fact, every one of these composers varies..

That was meant when I said "what the composer wants" as composers,
being artists, have got their own free wills.

> Anyway, the point is, that I'd like to believe there's a "right"

> answer to these questions

Which questions?

B13 means B13 including 7 and 11, B7add13 means B7 plus 13 no 11, etc.

> but, in practice, it doesn't seem to be that simple.

[Gerry]

On 2011-10-30 10:58:06 -0700, rpjazzguitar said:

> Anyway, the point is, that I'd like to believe there's a "right"
> answer to these questions, but, in practice, it doesn't seem to be
> that simple.

That gives me hope for the future.
--
Where words fail, music speaks. -- Hans Christian Anderson

[Joey Goldstein]

On 10/30/2011 2:11 PM, 2cts wrote:
> rpjazzguitar wrote:
>
>> ... In fact, every one of these composers varies..
>
> That was meant when I said "what the composer wants" as composers,
> being artists, have got their own free wills.
>
>> Anyway, the point is, that I'd like to believe there's a "right"
>> answer to these questions
>
> Which questions?
>
> B13 means B13 including 7 and 11,

Technically speaking, in classical theory "B13" meant "a dominant chord
of the 13th (a tertian stack up to the 13th) built on scale degree 5 in
the key of E major", or B D# F# A C# E G#.
But nobody in jazz interprets or plays the *chord symbol* "B13" that way.
Because of the b9 interval between D# and E virtually any experienced
player who sees this chord symbol will base his voicings on B D# F# A C#
G# instead, and they are also quite likely going to omit (according to
taste and context) the F# and/or the C# as well.
So, in practice, "B13" means "B7(9,13)", most of the time.
A player who really wants to have some sort of an 11th in there is more
likely to use the #11 than the P11.
Still, if you're after a dissonant sound, sometimes including the P11 in
there along with the maj 3rd is just the ticket, but it's not usually done.
For those folks wanting to include the P11 another option is to omit the
maj 3rd and play what amount to being a B7sus4(9,13) chord.

> B7add13 means B7 plus 13 no 7, etc.

No, it doesn't.
"B7(13)" and "B7(add13)" both mean the exact same thing which is a B7
chord (including its b7th) with a G# added.
"B(add13)" is equivalent to B6.

>> but, in practice, it doesn't seem to be that simple.
>
> "Thats" because improvisation includes the interpretation of harmony
> as well, at least as long as a band leader, if any, admits it.
>
> And another thing ar, finally, unwritten rules, or what they think are,
> that can become kind of a tradition sometimes.

[Joey Goldstein]

For a good overview of what all of the various chord symbols mean, to
most people most of the time, have a look at any of Sher Publications
fake books in the chord syllabus.
It's always in the first few pages of all of their fakebooks.

[2cts]

Joey Goldstein wrote:

>> Which questions?
>>
>> B13 means B13 including 7 and 11,
>
> Technically speaking, in classical theory

In what "classical theory"?

> "B13" meant "a dominant chord

"Dominant" is an just a free interpretation - that might be e.g. in Blues
also a "tonic".

> of the 13th (a tertian stack up to the 13th) built on scale degree 5 in
> the key of E major", or B D# F# A C# E G#.

> But nobody in jazz interprets or plays the *chord symbol* "B13" that way.

Maybe, but why not say the "truth" like B7/6 or similar to that.

> Because of the b9 interval between D# and E virtually any experienced

Of course, because this would be a grace note with resolution at the
same time which "rarely" makes sense in sensible music.

> player who sees this chord symbol will base his voicings on B D# F# A C#
> G# instead,

Not always and not everyone and not nobody, mind the "Jimmy Hendrix chord",
for instance.

> and they are also quite likely going to omit (according to
> taste and context) the F# and/or the C# as well.

No way! The 9 is the most important "friction note" (or how do you say?)
in many voicings.

> So, in practice, "B13" means "B7(9,13)", most of the time.

Huh? One sentence above you write the C#, the 9, is likely to be
omitted which means we have just a B7add6 or a B9 add6 (with 9).

I never have understood why they write crap like B13 instead...

> A player who really wants to have some sort of an 11th in there is more
> likely to use the #11 than the P11.

More likely, less likely... Is jazz a quiz event or something like
a lottery? ;)

> Still, if you're after a dissonant sound, sometimes including the P11 in
> there along with the maj 3rd is just the ticket, but it's not usually done.

More likely, less likely, more usually, less usually... Is jazz a lottery?

> For those folks wanting to include the P11 another option is to omit the
> maj 3rd and play what amount to being a B7sus4(9,13) chord.

Yes, just play whatever not you find on your instrument as an "option" ;)

>> B7add13 means B7 plus 13 no 7, etc.
>
> No, it doesn't.

In Message-ID: <201110301815.UTC.j8k47m$chj$1...@tioat.net> I wrote

[ the typo "B7 plus 13 no 7" was corrected to -> "B7 plus 13 no 11" ]

Obviously among all your "options" you are unable to intercept a typo.

[2cts]

[ typos corrected: not -> note, similar, anticipate, and others... ]

Joey Goldstein wrote:

>> Which questions?
>>
>> B13 means B13 including 7 and 11,
>
> Technically speaking, in classical theory

In what "classical theory"?

> "B13" meant "a dominant chord

"Dominant" is an just a free interpretation - that might be e.g. in Blues
also a "tonic".

> of the 13th (a tertian stack up to the 13th) built on scale degree 5 in
> the key of E major", or B D# F# A C# E G#.

> But nobody in jazz interprets or plays the *chord symbol* "B13" that way.

Maybe, but why not say the "truth" like B7/6 or similar to that.

> Because of the b9 interval between D# and E virtually any experienced

Of course, because this would be a grace note with resolution at the
same time which "rarely" makes sense in sensible music.

> player who sees this chord symbol will base his voicings on B D# F# A C#
> G# instead,

Not always and not everyone and not nobody, mind the similar

"Jimmy Hendrix chord", for instance.

> and they are also quite likely going to omit (according to
> taste and context) the F# and/or the C# as well.

No way! The 9 is the most important "friction note" (or how do you say?)
in many voicings.

> So, in practice, "B13" means "B7(9,13)", most of the time.

Huh? One sentence above you write the C#, the 9, is likely to be
omitted which means we have just a B7add6 or a B9 add6 (with 9).

I never have understood why they write crap like B13 instead...

> A player who really wants to have some sort of an 11th in there is more
> likely to use the #11 than the P11.

More likely, less likely... Is jazz a quiz event or something like
a lottery? ;)

> Still, if you're after a dissonant sound, sometimes including the P11 in
> there along with the maj 3rd is just the ticket, but it's not usually done.

More likely, less likely, more usually, less usually... Is jazz a lottery?

> For those folks wanting to include the P11 another option is to omit the
> maj 3rd and play what amount to being a B7sus4(9,13) chord.

Yes, just play whatever note you find on your instrument as an "option" ;)

>> B7add13 means B7 plus 13 no 7, etc.
>
> No, it doesn't.

In Message-ID: <201110301815.UTC.j8k47m$chj$1...@tioat.net> I wrote

[ the typo "B7 plus 13 no 7" was corrected to -> "B7 plus 13 no 11" ]

Obviously among all your "options" you are unable to anticipate a typo.

[Paul K]

On 10/30/11 1:58 PM, rpjazzguitar wrote:
> This is a little off center, but I've spent a fair amount of time
> playing music with composers (in classes), reading their charts.
>
> Some are very specific about what they want, in which case they write
> out standard notation -- every note. One composer/arranger I work with
> plays all the rhythm section instruments, so his voicings work on
> guitar -- if you can figure out how he fingered the chords.
>
> I'm taking a class now from a composer whose charts are suggestive,
> but don't even attempt to put all the harmony on the page. With the
> chart in front of me, I still have to spend time with the recording to
> figure out the "other" chords.
>
> Still another composer (one whose name you'd know), writes out very
> specific voicings, but they aren't always what he actually plays. In
> fact, every one of these composers varies what he actually plays all
> the time. And, while he's a well known guitarist, he often writes on
> piano, so the voices do not necessarily work on guitar.

who is it?

>
> Anyway, the point is, that I'd like to believe there's a "right"
> answer to these questions, but, in practice, it doesn't seem to be
> that simple.

--
Paul K
http://www.youtube.com/user/fibrationboy
http://www.soundclick.com/paulkirk
http://mypage.iu.edu/~pkirk/

[rpjazzguitar]

I didn't say at first out of concern for his privacy. But, on
reflection, I don't see any harm. I was referring to Chico Pinheiro. I
have had the opportunity to study with him and go over some of his
charts in detail. He is a brilliant player, composer, and
bandleader.

A few of his charts are available on his website (the older one, look
for the icon next to the tunes under discography). I was thinking of a
particular passage where he plays a maj9 (with the 9th at the top of
the chord) and the chart says maj7. Which does the composer want?

[TD]

C-7b13 has no fifth, whether a writer is anal or not anal. It is a
Locrian chord . **If the P5 is added**, then the initial b13 becomes
the *new root* of the voicing being toyed with; hence a new chord and
a new function. Try your chord voicing with F on top of the so-called
Bb-7b13. What does that voicing now sound like to you? Does it sound
much more like something major than minor (with more than a hint os a
*sus* flavor as well?)? Not satisfied? Play the usual suspects of a ii
v i there as: C-7 to F7 alt into your new found "Bb-7b13." Does that
sound cadential to you, much less minor in quality? Let's see, now
play Ab-7 to Db7 to your so called Bb-7b13. Sound better? Sound Major
and not minor? Sound like an inversion of Gbmaj7? I must say though,
that resolving ii V7 into I maj7/3rd in bass is a mush waeker chord
than that of the root in bass, but you can still hear the point. When
the P5 is added to min7b13, the b13 becomes "elevated" to ROOT. Laws
of resonance dictate this, plain and simple. Where in music theory
(books, lectures, name it) does it say that min7b13 contains a P5?
Educate me. I already spelled out that the upper partials of C-7b5
create b13 (Ab). Why is a wrong being intimated as forced to be a
right? I would really like to know why? In American music, at least,
you are not likely to see the change written as b13, which it really
is. You will *usually* see it as #5. Now true that #5 and b6 are
technically not the same, but fortunately only dogs realize this. I do
realize that Function will be debatable. It is just part of our
"language"; the nomenclature. Just as the real way to write E7#9 is
E7b10. Hardly anyone (except a few analized arrangers write b10 and I
do not care either way.

Funny that when we try to offer advice, it always gets challenged and
ultimately put down by a third party. So much so, that the OP has no
choice but to go further into the dark. I speak basic theory and not
of something esoteric or of personal opinion even though I said it was
my opinion in order to strive for some sort of diplomacy. In addition,
I never meant to suggest what 'scale' to utilze when blowing over the
so-called C-7b13 change. I can, but I am not interested, because there
are myriad approaches. I was simply suggesting that the chord change
itself was not of the Aeolian in quality; just that.

Any blokes want me to demonstrate what I speak of, I am at your
service free of charge via Skype.

-TD

-TD

-TD

[2cts]

rpjazzguitar wrote:

> I was thinking of a
> particular passage where he plays a maj9 (with the 9th at the top of
> the chord) and the chart says maj7. Which does the composer want?

Maybe there is kind of a "natural" difference in doing parts of the
musical pieces that are to be improvised over and parts that are not?

Also, when playing his own compositions, a composer could change his mind.

[2cts]

TD wrote:

> C-7b13 has no fifth, whether a writer is anal or not anal. It is a
> Locrian chord . **If the P5 is added**, then the initial b13 becomes
> the *new root* of the voicing being toyed with; hence a new chord and
> a new function.

Hopefully the componist knows all he is not allowed to compose.

> Try your chord voicing with F on top of the so-called
> Bb-7b13. What does that voicing now sound like to you? Does it sound
> much more like something major than minor (with more than a hint os a
> *sus* flavor as well?)?

This depends on the recipient of the music. For instance can some not
make the same sense out of the development of a 12 tone theme as others,
so you are speaking about yourself.

> Not satisfied? Play the usual suspects of a ii
> v i there as: C-7 to F7 alt into your new found "Bb-7b13." Does that
> sound cadential to you, much less minor in quality? Let's see, now
> play Ab-7 to Db7 to your so called Bb-7b13. Sound better? Sound Major
> and not minor? Sound like an inversion of Gbmaj7? I must say though,
> that resolving ii V7 into I maj7/3rd in bass is a mush waeker chord
> than that of the root in bass, but you can still hear the point. When
> the P5 is added to min7b13, the b13 becomes "elevated" to ROOT.

Perhaps composers should write down such a kind of "negotiation" for
each chord symbol!

> Laws of resonance dictate this, plain and simple.

Oh! LOL.

> Where in music theory
> (books, lectures, name it) does it say that min7b13 contains a P5?
> Educate me.

You are obviously born as a jazz genius, no further musical education
required.

> I already spelled out that the upper partials of C-7b5
> create b13 (Ab). Why is a wrong being intimated as forced to be a
> right? I would really like to know why? In American music, at least,
> you are not likely to see the change written as b13, which it really
> is. You will *usually* see it as #5. Now true that #5 and b6 are
> technically not the same, but fortunately only dogs realize this.

Probably, in jazz only though.

> I do realize that Function will be debatable.

Boah. Debate "Function" or recognize the various listening habits
that all these different people and cultures have.

> It is just part of our
> "language"; the nomenclature. Just as the real way to write E7#9 is
> E7b10. Hardly anyone (except a few analized arrangers write b10 and I
> do not care either way.

Becaus there IS probably no difference in most of all jazz.

> Funny that when we try to offer advice, it always gets challenged and
> ultimately put down by a third party. So much so, that the OP has no
> choice but to go further into the dark. I speak basic theory and not
> of something esoteric or of personal opinion even though I said it was
> my opinion in order to strive for some sort of diplomacy. In addition,
> I never meant to suggest what 'scale' to utilze when blowing over the
> so-called C-7b13 change. I can, but I am not interested, because there
> are myriad approaches. I was simply suggesting that the chord change
> itself was not of the Aeolian in quality; just that.
>
> Any blokes want me to demonstrate what I speak of, I am at your
> service free of charge via Skype.
>
> -TD
>
> -TD
>
> -TD

Do you have a website? I would like to hear some of your jazz...

[Joey Goldstein]

OK. Here we go. Sheesh...

On 10/30/2011 3:43 PM, 2cts wrote:
> Joey Goldstein wrote:
>
>>> Which questions?
>>>
>>> B13 means B13 including 7 and 11,
>>
>> Technically speaking, in classical theory
>
> In what "classical theory"?

I'm referring to the Tonal analysis theories and techniques taught in
classical conservatories.
These chaps don't really use chord symbols.
Their analytic devices are designed to analyse *pre-composed* music
represented in standard notation.
If a piece of music in standard notation contained a voicing of what we
jazzers represent in chord-symbol-notation as "B7", they would label it
as V7 (assuming that this was the correct designation for its function
within the key the music being analyzed is in).
They would only rarely need to use a capital letter name followed by a
7, and if and when they did - it would never be part of an analysis.
It (i.e. the symbol "B7") would only be used when talking generally
about a V7 chord in E whose root happens to be B.
In jazz we use chord symbols as a basis for *improvising* music.
Chord symbols have no place in classical music.

Classical Tonal (Tonal harmony, with a capital "T", is harmony based on
the major-minor key system) theory, all chords are the result of the
stacking of 3rds.
A "chord of the 13th" is therefore a tertian stack from root to 13th.

>> "B13" meant "a dominant chord
>
> "Dominant" is an just a free interpretation - that might be e.g. in Blues
> also a "tonic".

I'm talking about harmonic function, not the chord name.
A "dominant chord" is a chord that has dominant function within a key.
A "dominant 7th chord" is a chord formed according to the intervallic
formula 1 3 5 b7.
Not all dominant 7th chords have dominant function.
Not all dominant function chords are dom7 chords.
But pretty much every V chord in classical music is a dom7 chord.

>> of the 13th (a tertian stack up to the 13th) built on scale degree 5 in
>> the key of E major", or B D# F# A C# E G#.
>
>> But nobody in jazz interprets or plays the *chord symbol* "B13" that way.
>
> Maybe, but why not say the "truth" like B7/6 or similar to that.

Huh?
I'm telling you the "truth".
You're just not listening.

>> Because of the b9 interval between D# and E virtually any experienced
>
> Of course, because this would be a grace note with resolution at the
> same time which "rarely" makes sense in sensible music.

This has nothing to do with grace notes. What the hell are you talking
about?

>> player who sees this chord symbol will base his voicings on B D# F# A C#
>> G# instead,
>
> Not always and not everyone and not nobody, mind the "Jimmy Hendrix chord",
> for instance.

What does "the Jimi Hendrix chord", aka dom7#9, have to do with this
discussion at all?
Are you trying to suggest that someone reading a "B13" chord symbol
should play some sort of Dom7#9 chord?
That's nonsense.
I hope you don't teach.

>> and they are also quite likely going to omit (according to
>> taste and context) the F# and/or the C# as well.
>
> No way! The 9 is the most important "friction note" (or how do you say?)
> in many voicings.

I have no idea what you're talking about.
Maj 9ths when added to most chords do not create anything akin to what I
would call "friction".

>> So, in practice, "B13" means "B7(9,13)", most of the time.
>
> Huh? One sentence above you write the C#, the 9, is likely to be
> omitted

Jazz musicians do not take chord symbols literally.
They are a stepping off point, not a point of arrival.
Without getting into the slight and not so slight types of
reharmonizations that jazz players do on the fly all the time (or the
various permutations of a pitch collection that we might use when
voicing a chord), the most common thing we do when encountering a chord
symbol is to omit and or add notes that are not essential to the chord's
function within the progression.
Just because a writer writes "B7(9,13)" does not mean that we will
include *all* of those notes within our voicings.
What it means to us is that if we are going to add a 13th to the chord
it should be a maj 13th rather than a min 13th, and if we are going to
add a 9th to the chord it should be a maj 9th rather than a min 9th or
aug 9th.
But we might choose to add neither note to the chord.
And it's common practice among jazz players to omit the 5th from our
chord voicings a majority of the time.
If you were a jazz player yourself you'd probably know all of this already.
Why are you out here on usenet trying to give neophyte jazz musicians
advice?

> which means we have just a B7add6 or a B9 add6 (with 9).

"B7(add6)" is, technically speaking, not an incorrect chord symbol. But
common practice is to write "B7(13)" or "B7(add13)" instead.
Most of the time chordal extensions are written with compound interval
designations (i.e. numbers higher than 8).
A writer who writes "B7(add6)" might be trying to tell the players that
the 13th should ideally be voiced in the lower range of the voicing
forming a cluster with the 5th and/or the b7.
That's the only real reason to designate chordal extensions with
non-compound intervals (i.e. number lower than 8).
But an experienced player is just as likely to do that when seeing
"B7(13)" anyway.

Unless I knew a writer's work and had already developed substantial
respect for him, if I saw "B7add6" on a chart I'd assume that the writer
was a novice and I would just play it as if he had written "B7(13)" or sim.
If it was a writer that I respect, I'd ask him what the hell he really
meant.
Ditto for "B9(add6). I.e. It's better written as either "B13" or "B7(9,13).

> I never have understood why they write crap like B13 instead...

Evidently that's true. You don't understand.
I'm trying to explain it to you.
The main reason that we use the short-hand chord symbol "B13" instead of
"B7(9,13)" (which is already a form of shorthand for standard notation)
is because it takes up less room on the page.
Since "B13" is well understood by most jazz players we can get away with it.

>> A player who really wants to have some sort of an 11th in there is more
>> likely to use the #11 than the P11.
>
> More likely, less likely... Is jazz a quiz event or something like
> a lottery? ;)

It's called "improvising", and yes, there is a certain amount of
randomness and chance that is prevalent in all jazz improvising.

>> Still, if you're after a dissonant sound, sometimes including the P11 in
>> there along with the maj 3rd is just the ticket, but it's not usually done.
>
> More likely, less likely, more usually, less usually... Is jazz a lottery?

If you were a jazz musician or someone aspiring to be a jazz musician
you probably wouldn't be asking these types of questions.

>> For those folks wanting to include the P11 another option is to omit the
>> maj 3rd and play what amount to being a B7sus4(9,13) chord.
>
> Yes, just play whatever not you find on your instrument as an "option" ;)

In jazz, sounding good is its own justification.
B D# F# A E sounds "bad most of the time.
That's why we usually don't play the D# and the E at the same time.

>>> B7add13 means B7 plus 13 no 7, etc.
>>
>> No, it doesn't.
>
> In Message-ID:<201110301815.UTC.j8k47m$chj$1...@tioat.net> I wrote
>
> [ the typo "B7 plus 13 no 7" was corrected to -> "B7 plus 13 no 11" ]
>
> Obviously among all your "options" you are unable to intercept a typo.

Anybody who knows what they're doing would almost never write
"B7(13)(no5th)" or sim, because that sound is almost always called "B6"
or "Bmaj6".

[TD]

> > In Message-ID:<201110301815.UTC.j8k47m$ch...@tioat.net>  I wrote

>
> > [ the typo "B7 plus 13 no 7" was corrected to ->  "B7 plus 13 no 11" ]
>
> > Obviously among all your "options" you are unable to intercept a typo.
>
> Anybody who knows what they're doing would almost never write
> "B7(13)(no5th)" or sim, because that sound is almost always called "B6"
> or "Bmaj6".
>
> --
> Joey Goldstein
> <http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
> <http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/AudioClips/audio.htm>
> joegold AT primus DOT ca

Joey, don't you realize who or what you are wasting time responding
to? It is that poor English speaking troll who hates jazz and takes
over and wreaks havoc here every now and then. A total waste of time.
This thread is now ruined.

-TD

[bsuth...@cox.net]

> > In Message-ID:<201110301815.UTC.j8k47m$ch...@tioat.net>  I wrote

>
> > [ the typo "B7 plus 13 no 7" was corrected to ->  "B7 plus 13 no 11" ]
>
> > Obviously among all your "options" you are unable to intercept a typo.
>
> Anybody who knows what they're doing would almost never write
> "B7(13)(no5th)" or sim, because that sound is almost always called "B6"
> or "Bmaj6".
>
> --
> Joey Goldstein
> <http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
> <http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/AudioClips/audio.htm>
> joegold AT primus DOT ca

Joey, IMO you are far too smart, educated, respected, and you are in
no way obligated to respond to trash posts. I appreciate your writings
and thank you for sharing your vast knowledge.
Bryce

[Joey Goldstein]

On 10/30/2011 4:27 PM, TD wrote:
> On Oct 30, 1:58 pm, rpjazzguitar<rpjazzgui...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> This is a little off center, but I've spent a fair amount of time
>> playing music with composers (in classes), reading their charts.
>>
>> Some are very specific about what they want, in which case they write
>> out standard notation -- every note. One composer/arranger I work with
>> plays all the rhythm section instruments, so his voicings work on
>> guitar -- if you can figure out how he fingered the chords.
>>
>> I'm taking a class now from a composer whose charts are suggestive,
>> but don't even attempt to put all the harmony on the page. With the
>> chart in front of me, I still have to spend time with the recording to
>> figure out the "other" chords.
>>
>> Still another composer (one whose name you'd know), writes out very
>> specific voicings, but they aren't always what he actually plays. In
>> fact, every one of these composers varies what he actually plays all
>> the time. And, while he's a well known guitarist, he often writes on
>> piano, so the voices do not necessarily work on guitar.
>>
>> Anyway, the point is, that I'd like to believe there's a "right"
>> answer to these questions, but, in practice, it doesn't seem to be
>> that simple.

Tony, the heart of the matter is that the chord symbol "Xm7(b13)" is
essentially nonsensical and IMO writers who have any sense should
refrain from using it.

I'm guessing that the reason you're so adamant that voicings of Cm7(b13)
should not contain a G is based on the common practice that C7(b13) is
almost always played as C7#5.
We do that of course to avoid the rub between the G below and Ab/G# above.
C7#5 just has more clarity than a true C7(b13) chord.
But the chord symbol "C7(b13)" *does* imply that the P5th could be
included in the voicing.
I know that most guys don't include it in the voicing but the chord
symbol literally implies that they could.
C7 = C E G Bb
The b13th above C is Ab.
Taken together that's C E G Bb Ab.
*That's* what that chord symbol literally means.
Common practice for voicings off of that chord symbol is another matter
entirely.

The reason why I say that "Xm7(b13)" is a bogus chord symbol is because,
as you detail below, if voiced literally it creates a chord where the
b13 is actually the root.
C Eb G Bb Ab is really a bad voicing of Abmaj9/C.

> C-7b13 has no fifth, whether a writer is anal or not anal.

I'm sorry to disagree with you on this but, in my experience, many
modern writers use this chord symbol as an indication that they want a C
aeolian modal texture where the note Ab is not treated as an inharmonic
tone.
Usually this involves a significant duration for the modal vamp, long
enough that the bass note is perceived as the tonal centre and root.

There are of course other ways that the same or similar chord symbol
might be used.
Eg. As a way to indicate a minor chord cliche´ line, eg. Cm6 Cm(b6) Cm, etc.

But more often than not when I've seen this chord symbol it's been used
as an indication of an aeolian vamp.

> It is a
> Locrian chord .

"Cm7#5" or "Cm7(b13)" might occur in a context where C locrian is
called, for but they might also just as well be in a context calling for
C aeolian or C phrygian.
If a writer really wants to seal the deal for locrian (or a locrian
variant like loc #2) he'll need to write "Cm7b5(b13)".
"Cm7b5(b13)(no5th)" is another option, but that's pretty unwieldy.
He could also write "Cm7(b13) Loc".
But the m7b13 or m7#5 chord symbols on their own do *not*, in and of
them themselves, imply a locrian scale colour, in my experience.

> **If the P5 is added**, then the initial b13 becomes
> the *new root* of the voicing being toyed with;

Right.

> hence a new chord and
> a new function. Try your chord voicing with F on top of the so-called
> Bb-7b13. What does that voicing now sound like to you?

It's Gbmaj9/Bb.

> Does it sound
> much more like something major than minor (with more than a hint os a
> *sus* flavor as well?)? Not satisfied? Play the usual suspects of a ii
> v i there as: C-7 to F7 alt into your new found "Bb-7b13." Does that
> sound cadential to you, much less minor in quality? Let's see, now
> play Ab-7 to Db7 to your so called Bb-7b13. Sound better? Sound Major
> and not minor? Sound like an inversion of Gbmaj7? I must say though,
> that resolving ii V7 into I maj7/3rd in bass is a mush waeker chord
> than that of the root in bass, but you can still hear the point.


> When
> the P5 is added to min7b13, the b13 becomes "elevated" to ROOT.

Actually, it's a Gb chord whether the F is included or not.
Bb Db Ab Gb is Gb(add9)/Bb.

> Laws
> of resonance dictate this, plain and simple.

Actually, to my way of thinking, the inclusion of an F in this chord,
besides creating a strong dissonance with the Gb, also creates a P5th
interval with the bass note and this can shift the feeling of root more
towards that bass note, Bb, especially if the P5th is on the bottom of
the voicing.
And that's probably why guys still use the Bbm7(b13) chord symbol
instead of the more sensible Gbmaj9/Bb for their aeolian vamps.

> Where in music theory
> (books, lectures, name it) does it say that min7b13 contains a P5?

It follows by logical extension of the textual devices used within chord
symbol notation.
Bbm7 = Bb Dd F Ab
*That's* what "Bbm7" means.
"Bbm7(b13)" means "add a Gb to your Bbm7 chord".

The only chord symbol that literally means what you've been saying
"Bbm7(b13)" means is "Bbm7#5".

> Educate me. I already spelled out that the upper partials of C-7b5
> create b13 (Ab). Why is a wrong being intimated as forced to be a
> right? I would really like to know why? In American music, at least,
> you are not likely to see the change written as b13, which it really
> is. You will *usually* see it as #5. Now true that #5 and b6 are
> technically not the same, but fortunately only dogs realize this. I do
> realize that Function will be debatable. It is just part of our
> "language"; the nomenclature. Just as the real way to write E7#9 is
> E7b10. Hardly anyone (except a few analized arrangers write b10 and I
> do not care either way.
>
> Funny that when we try to offer advice, it always gets challenged and
> ultimately put down by a third party. So much so, that the OP has no
> choice but to go further into the dark. I speak basic theory and not
> of something esoteric or of personal opinion even though I said it was
> my opinion in order to strive for some sort of diplomacy. In addition,
> I never meant to suggest what 'scale' to utilze when blowing over the
> so-called C-7b13 change. I can, but I am not interested, because there
> are myriad approaches. I was simply suggesting that the chord change
> itself was not of the Aeolian in quality; just that.
>
> Any blokes want me to demonstrate what I speak of, I am at your
> service free of charge via Skype.
>
> -TD
>
> -TD
>
> -TD

[2cts]

Joey Goldstein wrote:

> OK. Here we go. Sheesh...

What does that mean?

> 2cts wrote:
>> Joey Goldstein wrote:
>>
>>>> Which questions?
>>>>
>>>> B13 means B13 including 7 and 11,
>>>
>>> Technically speaking, in classical theory
>>
>> In what "classical theory"?
>
> I'm referring to the Tonal analysis theories and techniques taught in
> classical conservatories.

Ok, so you refer to tonal music theory which is mostly basso continuo,
"roman numeral analysis", and "diatonic function" (Hugo Riemann 1893,
Wilhelm Maler and Diether de la Motte).

> These chaps don't really use chord symbols.

Basso continuo is a very precise way to say the same...

> Their analytic devices are designed to analyse *pre-composed* music
> represented in standard notation.

Nah, there is modern music too, like "20th-century classical music",
which uses any kind of new and special notation, too.

> If a piece of music in standard notation contained a voicing of what we
> jazzers

I used to play lots of jazz many years ago on stage...

> represent in chord-symbol-notation as "B7", they would label it
> as V7 (assuming that this was the correct designation for its function
> within the key the music being analyzed is in).

Where function is already a convention (just mind Wagner, e.g. the
Tristan chord, etc.).

> They would only rarely need to use a capital letter name followed by a
> 7, and if and when they did - it would never be part of an analysis.
> It (i.e. the symbol "B7") would only be used when talking generally
> about a V7 chord in E whose root happens to be B.

No need to gabble such trivia.

> In jazz we use chord symbols as a basis for *improvising* music.
> Chord symbols have no place in classical music.

Thats wrong as basso continuo is a very precise way to say the same...

> Classical Tonal (Tonal harmony, with a capital "T", is harmony based on
> the major-minor key system) theory, all chords are the result of the
> stacking of 3rds.
> A "chord of the 13th" is therefore a tertian stack from root to 13th.

No need to gabble such trivial crap.

>>> "B13" meant "a dominant chord
>>
>> "Dominant" is an just a free interpretation - that might be e.g. in Blues
>> also a "tonic".
>
> I'm talking about harmonic function, not the chord name.

Harmonic function is not part of the composer but of the recipient.

> A "dominant chord" is a chord that has dominant function within a key.
> A "dominant 7th chord" is a chord formed according to the intervallic
> formula 1 3 5 b7.

No need to gabble such trivial crap.

> Not all dominant 7th chords have dominant function.

No need to gabble such trivial crap.

> Not all dominant function chords are dom7 chords.

No need to gabble such trivial crap.

> But pretty much every V chord in classical music is a dom7 chord.

In case "classical music" is very narrowly defined. But where the
7 is a special color, which is not needed in any way to make a clause
(which is part of polyphonic cadencing).

>>> of the 13th (a tertian stack up to the 13th) built on scale degree 5 in
>>> the key of E major", or B D# F# A C# E G#.
>>
>>> But nobody in jazz interprets or plays the *chord symbol* "B13" that way.
>>
>> Maybe, but why not say the "truth" like B7/6 or similar to that.
>
> Huh?
> I'm telling you the "truth".
> You're just not listening.

LOL. Yes, you say when writing B13 the "jazzers" NEVER mean it.

>>> Because of the b9 interval between D# and E virtually any experienced
>>
>> Of course, because this would be a grace note with resolution at the
>> same time which "rarely" makes sense in sensible music.
>
> This has nothing to do with grace notes. What the hell are you talking
> about?

d g a - d f# a for instance. I found the word for "Vorhalt" in dict.cc
but there is also "suspended note", "forefall", "backfall" which might
betterly characerize things like d f# b - d f# a or f# a e - f# a d.

Please excuse my english in general, I am german.

>>> player who sees this chord symbol will base his voicings on B D# F# A C#
>>> G# instead,
>>
>> Not always and not everyone and not nobody, mind the "Jimmy Hendrix chord",
>> for instance.
>
> What does "the Jimi Hendrix chord", aka dom7#9, have to do with this
> discussion at all?

*)
Suspension note together with resolving, like d f# g d, is very much
similar to chords including minor and major third together, like d f f# d.

> Are you trying to suggest that someone reading a "B13" chord symbol
> should play some sort of Dom7#9 chord?

See *)

> That's nonsense.

See *)

> I hope you don't teach.

See *)

>>> and they are also quite likely going to omit (according to
>>> taste and context) the F# and/or the C# as well.
>>
>> No way! The 9 is the most important "friction note" (or how do you say?)
>> in many voicings.
>
> I have no idea what you're talking about.

Damn... e.g. 4WC, four way close, drop two,three, double lead, spreads, etc.

> Maj 9ths when added to most chords do not create anything akin to what I
> would call "friction".

Would you understand tension note?

In a typical 4WC you would often use "plain" tonic functions with
a tension note, for instance: c d e g istead of c e g.

The 9 is by far the mostly used friction or tension note.

>>> So, in practice, "B13" means "B7(9,13)", most of the time.
>>
>> Huh? One sentence above you write the C#, the 9, is likely to be
>> omitted
>
> Jazz musicians do not take chord symbols literally.

LOL. Thats what I said. The real book is just an "option"...

> ...

Bla bla...

>> which means we have just a B7add6 or a B9 add6 (with 9).
>
> "B7(add6)" is, technically speaking, not an incorrect chord symbol.
> But common practice is to write "B7(13)" or "B7(add13)" instead.

Sure, symbols are just names. We meant the same chord.

> Most of the time chordal extensions are written with compound interval
> designations (i.e. numbers higher than 8).

Yes. And Monday comes after Sunday!

> ...

Bla bla...

>> I never have understood why they write crap like B13 instead...
>
> Evidently that's true. You don't understand.
> I'm trying to explain it to you.

Forget it. I know your mother told you that Monday comes after Sunday...

> The main reason that we use the short-hand chord symbol "B13" instead of
> "B7(9,13)" (which is already a form of shorthand for standard notation)
> is because it takes up less room on the page.

ROFL.

> Since "B13" is well understood by most jazz players we can get away with it.
>
>>> A player who really wants to have some sort of an 11th in there is more
>>> likely to use the #11 than the P11.
>>
>> More likely, less likely... Is jazz a quiz event or something like
>> a lottery? ;)
>
> It's called "improvising", and yes, there is a certain amount of
> randomness and chance that is prevalent in all jazz improvising.

Not the theme in the real book, man.

You are obviously very, very dense.

>>> Still, if you're after a dissonant sound, sometimes including the P11 in
>>> there along with the maj 3rd is just the ticket, but it's not usually done.
>>
>> More likely, less likely, more usually, less usually... Is jazz a lottery?
>
> If you were a jazz musician or someone aspiring to be a jazz musician
> you probably wouldn't be asking these types of questions.

You are an ignorant asshole AND an idiot. I speaking about the THEME
of course, you tard.

No need to "explain" all that crap like that nowadays even in America
Monday typically follows the Sunday.

>>> For those folks wanting to include the P11 another option is to omit the
>>> maj 3rd and play what amount to being a B7sus4(9,13) chord.
>>
>> Yes, just play whatever not you find on your instrument as an "option" ;)
>
> In jazz, sounding good is its own justification.
> B D# F# A E sounds "bad most of the time.
> That's why we usually don't play the D# and the E at the same time.
>
>>>> B7add13 means B7 plus 13 no 7, etc.
>>>
>>> No, it doesn't.
>>
>> In Message-ID:<201110301815.UTC.j8k47m$chj$1...@tioat.net> I wrote
>>
>> [ the typo "B7 plus 13 no 7" was corrected to -> "B7 plus 13 no 11" ]
>>
>> Obviously among all your "options" you are unable to intercept a typo.
>
> Anybody who knows what they're doing would almost never write
> "B7(13)(no5th)" or sim, because that sound is almost always called "B6"
> or "Bmaj6".

Your are a mother fucker.

[Keith Freeman]

> Anyway, the point is, that I'd like to believe there's a "right"
> answer to these questions, but, in practice, it doesn't seem to be
> that simple.

You're not wrong there! Top flight musicians will write Csus when they mean
C7sus, Cmajb5 when they mean Cmaj#4 (or #11 if you prefer).

Then there's the erroneous dogma that all jazz chords are/were built of
stacked thirds, which (along with familiarity with the whole 9 - 11 - 13
thing) leads otherwise intelligent musicians to use numbers above 8 when
the numbers below 8 would be clearer and more appropriate.

[TD]

> joegold AT primus DOT ca- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

No, thats OK, I cannot agree. No big deal though.

[2cts]

Keith Freeman wrote:

>> Anyway, the point is, that I'd like to believe there's a "right"
>> answer to these questions, but, in practice, it doesn't seem to be
>> that simple.

> You're not wrong there! Top flight musicians will write Csus when they mean
> C7sus, Cmajb5 when they mean Cmaj#4 (or #11 if you prefer).

> Then there's the erroneous dogma that all jazz chords are/were built of
> stacked thirds,

That is "the problem"... Dogma or not...

> which (along with familiarity with the whole 9 - 11 - 13 thing)
> leads otherwise intelligent musicians to use numbers above 8 when
> the numbers below 8 would be clearer and more appropriate.

The jazz chord notation including (!) "its" tradition is defacto
far away from being consistent - and so seems also the thinking of
"jazzers" tending to be - kind of fuzzy in general...

I have "officially" learned (conservatory) the "stacking dogma"
above long ago (among the very secrets with Bach and pre Bach
music), but I also have played (guitar) in jazz bands where it
was even strictly used, e.g. in the brass section. Of course can
you not reproduce that all on a guitar, which has but NO feedback
on jazz notation itself...

[Joey Goldstein]

On 10/30/2011 5:45 PM, 2cts wrote:
> Joey Goldstein wrote:
>
>> OK. Here we go. Sheesh...
>
> What does that mean?

It means that you're an idiot (and evidently also an asshole) and I'm an
even bigger idiot for trying to talk to you.
It means that I know this and continue to do it in spite of myself.
But I didn't say it that way last time because I was trying to be a nice
guy.
No more Mr. Nice Guy.

>> 2cts wrote:
>>> Joey Goldstein wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Which questions?
>>>>>
>>>>> B13 means B13 including 7 and 11,
>>>>
>>>> Technically speaking, in classical theory
>>>
>>> In what "classical theory"?
>>
>> I'm referring to the Tonal analysis theories and techniques taught in
>> classical conservatories.
>
> Ok, so you refer to tonal music theory which is mostly basso continuo,
> "roman numeral analysis", and "diatonic function" (Hugo Riemann 1893,
> Wilhelm Maler and Diether de la Motte).

Right.

>> These chaps don't really use chord symbols.
>
> Basso continuo is a very precise way to say the same...

It's been quite some time since that notational system has been is
common usage.
But this is an irrelevant tangent.
You asked me what "classical theory" says about the formation of a 13th
chord and I told you.
Evidently you've studied some classical theory yourself.
So why did I need to tell you?

>> Their analytic devices are designed to analyse *pre-composed* music
>> represented in standard notation.
>
> Nah, there is modern music too, like "20th-century classical music",
> which uses any kind of new and special notation, too.

To the extent that modern music based upon classical tradition follows
Common Practice Period harmonic conventions the analytic techniques used
for CPP analysis will be applicable.
To the extent that modern classical music deviates from CPP norms new
analytic techniques need to be created and used.
There is still precious little classical music from any period that can
benefit from a pop/jazz chord chart, unless the players are improvising.
But of course this is irrelevant.

>> If a piece of music in standard notation contained a voicing of what we
>> jazzers
>
> I used to play lots of jazz many years ago on stage...

Sure you did.

>> represent in chord-symbol-notation as "B7", they would label it
>> as V7 (assuming that this was the correct designation for its function
>> within the key the music being analyzed is in).
>
> Where function is already a convention (just mind Wagner, e.g. the
> Tristan chord, etc.).

CPP analysis vs jazz/pop chord symbol notation is what I'm discussing.
What are *you* discussing?
If you have a point would you please make it already.

>> They would only rarely need to use a capital letter name followed by a
>> 7, and if and when they did - it would never be part of an analysis.
>> It (i.e. the symbol "B7") would only be used when talking generally
>> about a V7 chord in E whose root happens to be B.
>
> No need to gabble such trivia.

Right back atcha' slick.

>> In jazz we use chord symbols as a basis for *improvising* music.
>> Chord symbols have no place in classical music.
>
> Thats wrong as basso continuo is a very precise way to say the same...

Figured bass was a system of notation designed to allow an improvised
accompaniment to a *pre-composed* melody.
They were not, generally speaking, creating new melodies based upon the
chord progression as is the case in jazz.
And this is still totally irrelevant.

>> Classical Tonal (Tonal harmony, with a capital "T", is harmony based on
>> the major-minor key system) theory, all chords are the result of the
>> stacking of 3rds.
>> A "chord of the 13th" is therefore a tertian stack from root to 13th.
>
> No need to gabble such trivial crap.

Right back atcha' slick.

>>>> "B13" meant "a dominant chord
>>>
>>> "Dominant" is an just a free interpretation - that might be e.g. in Blues
>>> also a "tonic".
>>
>> I'm talking about harmonic function, not the chord name.
>
> Harmonic function is not part of the composer but of the recipient.

That makes no sense.
What are you trying to say?
Do you have a point?
You didn't understand what I meant by a dominant chord so I explained it
to you and now you want to argue about it. Sheesh.

>> A "dominant chord" is a chord that has dominant function within a key.
>> A "dominant 7th chord" is a chord formed according to the intervallic
>> formula 1 3 5 b7.
>
> No need to gabble such trivial crap.

Evidently there was a need.

>> Not all dominant 7th chords have dominant function.
>
> No need to gabble such trivial crap.

Evidently there was a need.

>> Not all dominant function chords are dom7 chords.
>
> No need to gabble such trivial crap.

Evidently there was a need.
Why not just say "thanks"?

>> But pretty much every V chord in classical music is a dom7 chord.
>
> In case "classical music" is very narrowly defined.

CPP.

> But where the
> 7 is a special color, which is not needed in any way to make a clause
> (which is part of polyphonic cadencing).

Irrelevant.

>>>> of the 13th (a tertian stack up to the 13th) built on scale degree 5 in
>>>> the key of E major", or B D# F# A C# E G#.
>>>
>>>> But nobody in jazz interprets or plays the *chord symbol* "B13" that way.
>>>
>>> Maybe, but why not say the "truth" like B7/6 or similar to that.
>>
>> Huh?
>> I'm telling you the "truth".
>> You're just not listening.
>
> LOL. Yes, you say when writing B13 the "jazzers" NEVER mean it.

No. I'm saying that we know what it means.
Evidently you don't, and I'm trying to explain it to you.
But you're not listening.

>>>> Because of the b9 interval between D# and E virtually any experienced
>>>
>>> Of course, because this would be a grace note with resolution at the
>>> same time which "rarely" makes sense in sensible music.
>>
>> This has nothing to do with grace notes. What the hell are you talking
>> about?
>
> d g a - d f# a for instance. I found the word for "Vorhalt" in dict.cc
> but there is also "suspended note", "forefall", "backfall" which might
> betterly characerize things like d f# b - d f# a or f# a e - f# a d.
>
> Please excuse my english in general, I am german.

I know what grace notes are.
I know what suspensions are.
I know what chordal decorations are.
And this is all irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

>>>> player who sees this chord symbol will base his voicings on B D# F# A C#
>>>> G# instead,
>>>
>>> Not always and not everyone and not nobody, mind the "Jimmy Hendrix chord",
>>> for instance.
>>
>> What does "the Jimi Hendrix chord", aka dom7#9, have to do with this
>> discussion at all?
>
> *)
> Suspension note together with resolving, like d f# g d, is very much
> similar to chords including minor and major third together, like d f f# d.

Irrelevant.

>> Are you trying to suggest that someone reading a "B13" chord symbol
>> should play some sort of Dom7#9 chord?
>
> See *)
>
>> That's nonsense.
>
> See *)
>
>> I hope you don't teach.
>
> See *)
>
>>>> and they are also quite likely going to omit (according to
>>>> taste and context) the F# and/or the C# as well.
>>>
>>> No way! The 9 is the most important "friction note" (or how do you say?)
>>> in many voicings.
>>
>> I have no idea what you're talking about.
>
> Damn... e.g. 4WC, four way close, drop two,three, double lead, spreads, etc.

Still no idea what you're talking about.

>> Maj 9ths when added to most chords do not create anything akin to what I
>> would call "friction".
>
> Would you understand tension note?

Is that what you mean by "friction". OK.
That's irrelevant too.

> In a typical 4WC you would often use "plain" tonic functions with
> a tension note, for instance: c d e g istead of c e g.
>
> The 9 is by far the mostly used friction or tension note.

Irrelevant.
Jazz players routinely omit the 9th from their voicings of 13th chords
just as routinely as they include it.

>>>> So, in practice, "B13" means "B7(9,13)", most of the time.
>>>
>>> Huh? One sentence above you write the C#, the 9, is likely to be
>>> omitted
>>
>> Jazz musicians do not take chord symbols literally.
>
> LOL. Thats what I said. The real book is just an "option"...

What does The Real Book have to do with *anything*?
This is just like talking to an idiot.

>> ...
>
> Bla bla...

And a dick to boot.

>>> which means we have just a B7add6 or a B9 add6 (with 9).
>>
>> "B7(add6)" is, technically speaking, not an incorrect chord symbol.
>> But common practice is to write "B7(13)" or "B7(add13)" instead.
>
> Sure, symbols are just names. We meant the same chord.

Sure. But I'm trying to explain to you how we use the symbols so that
you won't look like such an idiot anymore when you go out on usenet and
pretend that you know something about this stuff.

>> Most of the time chordal extensions are written with compound interval
>> designations (i.e. numbers higher than 8).
>
> Yes. And Monday comes after Sunday!

You act as if I've told you something you already knew, but you write as
if you don't know it.
What's the matter with you?

>> ...
>
> Bla bla...

Right back atcha' slick.

>>> I never have understood why they write crap like B13 instead...
>>
>> Evidently that's true. You don't understand.
>> I'm trying to explain it to you.
>
> Forget it. I know your mother told you that Monday comes after Sunday...

Gladly.
But you keep writing more and more inane bullshit.

>> The main reason that we use the short-hand chord symbol "B13" instead of
>> "B7(9,13)" (which is already a form of shorthand for standard notation)
>> is because it takes up less room on the page.
>
> ROFL.

You asked and I gave you the answer.
Why do you find that funny?

>> Since "B13" is well understood by most jazz players we can get away with it.
>>
>>>> A player who really wants to have some sort of an 11th in there is more
>>>> likely to use the #11 than the P11.
>>>
>>> More likely, less likely... Is jazz a quiz event or something like
>>> a lottery? ;)
>>
>> It's called "improvising", and yes, there is a certain amount of
>> randomness and chance that is prevalent in all jazz improvising.
>
> Not the theme in the real book, man.

The Real Book again?
WTF?

> You are obviously very, very dense.

*I'm* dense?
Lol.

>>>> Still, if you're after a dissonant sound, sometimes including the P11 in
>>>> there along with the maj 3rd is just the ticket, but it's not usually done.
>>>
>>> More likely, less likely, more usually, less usually... Is jazz a lottery?
>>
>> If you were a jazz musician or someone aspiring to be a jazz musician
>> you probably wouldn't be asking these types of questions.
>
> You are an ignorant asshole AND an idiot.

Hmm. Up until this current post I've been quite careful to treat you
with respect and now you go ad hominem on me.
Interesting.

> I speaking about the THEME

What "theme"?
I've been speaking about a chord symbol.

> of course, you tard.

Dude, the only person with questionable intellectual faculties here is you.

> No need to "explain" all that crap like that nowadays even in America
> Monday typically follows the Sunday.

But you still don't understand.
Oh well.

>>>> For those folks wanting to include the P11 another option is to omit the
>>>> maj 3rd and play what amount to being a B7sus4(9,13) chord.
>>>
>>> Yes, just play whatever not you find on your instrument as an "option" ;)
>>
>> In jazz, sounding good is its own justification.
>> B D# F# A E sounds "bad most of the time.
>> That's why we usually don't play the D# and the E at the same time.
>>
>>>>> B7add13 means B7 plus 13 no 7, etc.
>>>>
>>>> No, it doesn't.
>>>
>>> In Message-ID:<201110301815.UTC.j8k47m$chj$1...@tioat.net> I wrote
>>>
>>> [ the typo "B7 plus 13 no 7" was corrected to -> "B7 plus 13 no 11" ]
>>>
>>> Obviously among all your "options" you are unable to intercept a typo.
>>
>> Anybody who knows what they're doing would almost never write
>> "B7(13)(no5th)" or sim, because that sound is almost always called "B6"
>> or "Bmaj6".
>
> Your are a mother fucker.

Right. Ask your mother about me.
Been a pleasure.

[2cts]

Joey Goldstein wrote:

> *I'm* dense?

>> You are a mother fucker.

A dense mother fucker...

[2cts]

Keith Freeman wrote:

> Then there's the erroneous dogma that all jazz chords are/were built of
> stacked thirds

Yes, indeed, for instance here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chord_names_and_symbols_(jazz_and_pop_music)#9ths
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chord_names_and_symbols_(jazz_and_pop_music)#11ths
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chord_names_and_symbols_(jazz_and_pop_music)#13ths

There is no option to that. ´
So the NG would better have to state wikipedia is always bad in general.

Obviously the guitarists here "feel" that their guitars are the
"very center of the very jazz"... ;)

[TD]

> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Wasting your time. He enjoys insane conflict. Notice how he masks his
identity.

[2cts]

[ Top secret: CIA ]

Everything which differs is irrelevant.

-TD

-TD

-TD

-TD

-TD

[rpjazzguitar]

I clicked reply on the most recent message, but this is not a response
to it. I don't know enough theory to have an opinion. I'm trying to
learn more.

Rather, it's an example

I'm looking at Dori Caymmi's (Grammy Nominated Arranger) chart for
Amazon River, in his own handwriting.

There is a vamp like section starting in bar 16.

It is written as Bm47 to Bm7#5. A bar each. A total of 8 bars before
the melody starts (and then another 5 bars of it, with G/A in bar 6.

The Bm4/7 is spelled out B E A D E.

The Bm7#5 is spelled out B G A E. There's an F# in the bass that falls
between these chords, but does ring thru the Bm7#5 in even numbered
bars.

This Bm7#5 does not sound like a Gmaj9 to me. And, it sometimes has a
fifth.

When I play over it, the F natural doesn't sound good.

[Joey Goldstein]

On 10/30/2011 7:23 PM, rpjazzguitar wrote:
> I clicked reply on the most recent message, but this is not a response
> to it. I don't know enough theory to have an opinion. I'm trying to
> learn more.
>
> Rather, it's an example
>
> I'm looking at Dori Caymmi's (Grammy Nominated Arranger) chart for
> Amazon River, in his own handwriting.
>
> There is a vamp like section starting in bar 16.
>
> It is written as Bm47

I've never encountered that chord symbol myself, except for now, but
based on your spelling of it below it kind of makes sense.
But if I'd seen it w/o the spelling I'd have very little clarity as far
as what he expects me to play.

> to Bm7#5. A bar each. A total of 8 bars before
> the melody starts (and then another 5 bars of it, with G/A in bar 6.
>
> The Bm4/7 is spelled out B E A D E.

If I was trying to make a chord symbol for that chord it'd be Bm7(11).
Maybe his chord symbol choice has something to do with Brazilian norms
as opposed to North American norms.

> The Bm7#5 is spelled out B G A E.

Technically speaking it might be better to notate that as Bm7#5(11).

> There's an F# in the bass that falls
> between these chords, but does ring thru the Bm7#5 in even numbered
> bars.
>
> This Bm7#5 does not sound like a Gmaj9 to me.

Sounds like G6(9)/B to me, w/o any bass line added.
But if the bass is going between B and F# the feeling that B is the root
will be strengthened.

> And, it sometimes has a
> fifth.
>
> When I play over it, the F natural doesn't sound good.

No reason here to think that it would sound good.
If the surrounding chords were from an established key of C major or A
minor the F nat would likely be right at home though.
Especially with F#'s in the bass and an E in the chord voicing, any F
nats above it will sound out of place.

[Joey Goldstein]

On 10/30/2011 3:00 PM, Joey Goldstein wrote:
>
> For a good overview of what all of the various chord symbols mean, to
> most people most of the time, have a look at any of Sher Publications
> fake books in the chord syllabus.
> It's always in the first few pages of all of their fakebooks.
>

FWIW
Sher does not include m7b13 or m7#5 chord symbols in his syllabus.
Possibly he agrees with me that these chord symbols are bogus and
shouldn't be used.

[TD]

Of course not, you have an E in the voicing. The voicing should be B G
A D. And F# sounds good, on the voicing, of course. But I would not
call that change B-7#5. F natural sounds cool to me . But you must
remember, B-7#5 as a voicing is used normally in conjunction with
B-7b5 as example, 2 beats a piece. You can still utilize F as a viable
tone in your blowing just as you can utilize C#, but you must keep in
mind that major 2nds can clash. The chord is a tone collection and
thus of the Locrian. It is not tonal as B-7#5. F# will work in the
tone collection, of course, but I do not call the chord B-7#5. It is a
1st inversion Gmaj9th chord type and I do not understand how or why
B-7#5 does not sound like Gmaj9 to you. B-7#5 is really G (add 9)/B,
but as soon as you employ the F#, it really drifts into Gmaj
territory. The P5 of the so called B-7#5 is now the large 7 of Gmaj.
You now have all the principle tones for Gmaj7 plus. B G A D (F#).
That ain't no B-7#5. But it can be for some.

-TD

[David J. Littleboy]

"TD" <tonyde...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 30, 6:40 pm, Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> On 10/30/2011 5:45 PM, 2cts wrote:
> > Joey Goldstein wrote:
>
> >> OK. Here we go. Sheesh...
>
> > What does that mean?
>
> It means that you're an idiot (and evidently also an asshole) and I'm an
> even bigger idiot for trying to talk to you.
> It means that I know this and continue to do it in spite of myself.
> But I didn't say it that way last time because I was trying to be a nice
> guy.
> No more Mr. Nice Guy.

<SNIP>

Wasting your time. He enjoys insane conflict. Notice how he masks his
identity.
<<<<<<<<<<<

My killfile seems to be working: I'm not seeing the posts.

I recommend killfiles. Highly. It's very nice not to have to read posts from
the obnoxious troublemakers. It doesn't take very many killfile entries to
make RMMGJ a really great place. You can leave one such crazy unkilled to
remind yourself how good life is without the noise.

--
David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan

[matt]

asked the sax about it today,
he meant 'of the key', aeolian, with P5 etc.
Not taking a sides here, there is obviously disagreement.
great discussion, I learned a lot here.

[rpjazzguitar]

> -TD- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

It sounds to me like a suspension on the minor with a B root.
Considering the voice leading is simply raising and lowering the
fifth, why would it be better to think of it as a G chord of some
kind? It actually functions as something that sounds like a tonic
minor to me. Then, the fifth is raised -- why completely rename the
chord when only one voice moved a half step? The tune, by the way is
written with two sharps.

But, then again, I don't claim to understand slash chords except as a
means to keep the chord name simple while telling the bassist what to
play.

And, although I don't claim to understand chord/scale relationships
very well either, that F natural sounds pretty out to me.

[TD]

> very well either, that F natural sounds pretty out to me.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

I refer to F natural against B-7#5 only and not with your F# in the
bass. I need to see the tune, in any case. I would bet the possibility
that if I were blowing on the tune in that section , F could easily be
an approach note candidate promising us better health care. Lets' not
forget that these are merely words spoken on this NG. Playing is the
real. In addition, anyone can make bold and often insulting statements
that are isolated far from reality, but that is not the case in this
thread with the exception of the annoying troll with the bad English.
I was speaking only against the half-diminished upper partials
derivative tone collection. I did not understand or read thoroughly
how you used your chord. So, yes, I would consider the #5 an added
tone ( yet such a devce is usually utilized in the same bar as the
preceding chord), but still not call it m-7#5 with natural 5 in the
chord. Apparently some do. If a player wishes to name a chord in his
own tune the way he wishes, then he is the boss of that tune. I do not
"rename" some one's chords. I may disagree and/or look at the chord
from a different viewpoint. I would like to see the tune, nonetheless.

[2cts]

TD wrote:

> I refer to F natural against B-7#5 only and not with your F# in the
> bass. I need to see the tune, in any case. I would bet the possibility
> that if I were blowing on the tune in that section , F could easily be
> an approach note candidate promising us better health care. Lets' not
> forget that these are merely words spoken on this NG. Playing is the
> real. In addition, anyone can make bold and often insulting statements
> that are isolated far from reality, but that is not the case in this
> thread with the exception of the annoying troll with the bad English.
> I was speaking only against the half-diminished upper partials
> derivative tone collection. I did not understand or read thoroughly
> how you used your chord. So, yes, I would consider the #5 an added
> tone ( yet such a devce is usually utilized in the same bar as the
> preceding chord), but still not call it m-7#5 with natural 5 in the
> chord. Apparently some do. If a player wishes to name a chord in his
> own tune the way he wishes, then he is the boss of that tune. I do not
> "rename" some one's chords. I may disagree and/or look at the chord
> from a different viewpoint. I would like to see the tune, nonetheless.

Boah, maybe that this is really interesting...

[2cts]

Joey Goldstein told the world:

> The main reason that we use the short-hand chord symbol "B13"
>

> instead of "B7(9,13)" ...

>
> is because it takes up less room on the page.

Yes, of course, that credences jazz the sense it deserves!

World! Please help the jazz! Paper for the jazzers!

PLEASE DONATE PAPER TO THE JAZZ COMPOSERS and JAZZERS ALL OVER THE WORLD!

[Keith Freeman]

2cts wrote in news:201110311446.UTC.j8mcc8$q7$1...@tioat.net:

>> The main reason that we use the short-hand chord symbol "B13"
>>
>> instead of "B7(9,13)" ...
>>
>> is because it takes up less room on the page.
>
>
> Yes, of course, that credences jazz the sense it deserves!
>
> World! Please help the jazz! Paper for the jazzers!
>

That isn't the point. The aim, as Jamey Aebersold says, is to reduce the
amount of information the player needs to process when reading a chart. For
example, if I'm faced with a B7(add 9, add 13), by the time I've figured
out it's just a simple B13 the tune has already moved on another two bars.