About Bitches Brew and that kind of stuff...
Raine Lonnakko
the some weird recordings from these master players. F.e. Miles:
Bitches brew or Silent way. Coltranes: Meditation. The stuff they play
sounds to me very irrational, odd as some kind of spirtism, voodoo or
other occult. I know there is some other that kind of recordings of
course, but these popped up on my mind. I have listened those
recordings about several years ago and I felt myself at least a fool.
Bitches Brew has a rhytyhm, but Meditation is far from a rhythym even
= chaos is the right word. Was it drugs or some kind of spiritual
contact or them together? These musicians I don't like at all pharoah
sanders and sun ra they sound to me awful.
Pat Meteheny also has a one rank of garbage recording. I can't rember
the name (The names of other recordings can be remembered wrong too.),
but it was awful. Just hitting his guitar without any rhythm or
melodic or harmonic sense. One silly guestion pops up: Are these guys
free masonary or somethingg else occultists? Or do they think we are
stupid enough to waste our money to that kind of rubbish?
I enjoy GOOD jazzmusic, but what do you think about this IMHO garbage?
Be free with your comments. I am sorry if I hurt someones taste.
Raine Lonnakko
Amateur from Finland
David Moss
"Raine Lonnakko" wrote...
> There was a discussion about Miles earlier, but I
> am wondering about the some weird recordings
> from these master players. F.e. Miles: Bitches brew
> or Silent way. Coltranes: Meditation. The stuff they play
> sounds to me very irrational, odd as some kind of
Speaking for myself, just occasionally some of Coltrane's
free jazz stuff does something for me - late at night, in
a darkened room, just letting the sound wash over me,
it does feel intense, exciting... i.e. an emotional response.
But on the whole it has me running for cover.
This problem with avant-garde stuff doesn't only apply
to jazz of course - there's the random smear paintings,
the pile of brick sculptures, Cage's concertos for vacuum
cleaner and power drill... how do you know if these
guys are really being serious, or if they're just conning
everybody?? To which some artists would respond,
conning everybody IS art... you go round in circles.
And the biggest problem of all is - if you come out of
the closet and tell the world, I think XYZ is a load of
crap... well, maybe XYZ will turn out to be the next
Monet/Mahler/Bird/Monk (all of whom were slated
by the critics of their time), then you end up looking
pretty stupid.
Best approach is - don't listen to stuff you don't like,
and if anyone asks you what you think of it, answer
"I respect his work, but I have to admit I don't really
understand what he's trying to stay". That way you keep
all the bases covered!
Jay Carlson
specific mediums in particular, be they music, painting, stand-up comedy,
whatever- and the many facets/parameters (and their respective range of
'usability' or tolerance) that make up art and the meaning it communicates-
whatever that is- (often it's a completely non-verbal thing)- by
conciously omitting some of those communicative parameters, and
concentrating on others for a change. i.e. we can learn a lot about time by
playing with less or no time, the same for harmonic considerations, etc.
And entirely new things can be gotten accross (and important insights can be
transmitted) by new & different combinations of these artistic parameters.
Sometimes I like to play "as beautiful as possible" whatever that means-
with no real time, and no harmonic 'floor'. It's part of my practice
routine, and sometimes part of my gigs, and is very educational, and
beautiful. It helps my phrasing, and makes me feel more like I'm 'talking'.
Think of all the parameters of our art that we can control with a guitar,
there'a a lot of possibilities for new and beautiful things. Why, I just
read an interview with Nigel from Spinal Tap- he's strictly into volume
these days!- a very advanced, I might venture to say 'enlightened' man.
Now, if all this is written poorly or is a little vague in it's impetus,
I think I know why: I'm a coffee addict. I got up this morning and I was
OUT of coffee. I live on a tiny Caribbean island, and there aint no corner
store to go get more (my day will now be taken up with one long
errand/adventure- get coffee). Anyway, I was groggy. Then I remembered I
had a Diet Coke in the fridge, and figured that would have to do. I drank
it over the course of fifteen or twenty minutes, and then, as I was throwing
away the can, only then did I realize it was a Coor's Light. Now the
situation is getting desperate. Jay
Hear my live CD @ www.vijazz.net
Colin Cotter
around the same ideas of tension and release. The second track on in a
Silent Way is the master of this - building up with the drums and bass and
some agitated soloing from Shorter, then Miles' solo gradually whips it
into that funky-ass riff that I can never get out of my head. Bebop its
not, but it is art.
The same with Bitches Brew, but for two whole LPs! Miles Brings the Voodoo
Down is where it all goes off, and then after all the tension is blown
away, the last track Sanctuary is alternately gentle like a prayer and
screaming.
When I first heard all this, I was mighty confused but I have come to
learn that my favourite records always take a bit of getting used to...
************
Colin Cotter
************
Jay Carlson
I've ever heard. Especially Miles BTVD & Sanctuary! Wow, oh my god, that
stuff changed me for life. Jay
Hear my live CD @ www.vijazz.net
Colin Cotter <cj...@ic.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.3.96.101081...@callaghan.ma.ic.ac.uk...
Bob Russell
> Now, if all this is written poorly or is a little vague in it's impetus,
> I think I know why: I'm a coffee addict. I got up this morning and I was
> OUT of coffee. I live on a tiny Caribbean island, and there aint no corner
> store to go get more (my day will now be taken up with one long
> errand/adventure- get coffee). Anyway, I was groggy. Then I remembered I
> had a Diet Coke in the fridge, and figured that would have to do. I drank
> it over the course of fifteen or twenty minutes, and then, as I was throwing
> away the can, only then did I realize it was a Coor's Light. Now the
> situation is getting desperate. Jay
Oh, man! I can definitely relate... :)
-- Bob Russell, unrepentant Diet Mountain Dew addict
http://www.uncwil.edu/people/russellr
Jay Carlson
I notice you're in Wilmington. I visit there a couple times a year, nice
little town. I'll look you up next time I'm nearby. I didn't know of any
jazz there. I usually go to that music store downtown- AFTER I get a good
cup of coffee down the street- to play one of thier lefty guitars if they
have any. It would be nice to do some playing while I'm in town though, are
there any decent venues? Are there many players? Thanks, Jay
Hear my live CD @ www.vijazz.net
Bob Russell <bobrus...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:B7A01921.C4FB%bobrus...@hotmail.com...
Bob Russell
> Bob,
> I notice you're in Wilmington. I visit there a couple times a year, nice
> little town. I'll look you up next time I'm nearby. I didn't know of any
> jazz there. I usually go to that music store downtown- AFTER I get a good
> cup of coffee down the street- to play one of thier lefty guitars if they
> have any. It would be nice to do some playing while I'm in town though, are
> there any decent venues? Are there many players? Thanks, Jay
> Hear my live CD @ www.vijazz.net
Hi Jay,
The jazz scene here... well... There are quite a few "players" but not many
players. Rhythm sections are especially problematic.
Venue-wise, there's the Water Street Restaurant, which caters to the older
crowd (a singer who does "Summertime", etc. is a definite plus when seeking
employment there). There's the Paleo Sun, which is frequented by
twentysomethings; having a DJ or "live-action painter" in your band is a
plus there. There's a new place way out near Landfall called Café de France;
I haven't heard much about that yet. There are a couple of "jazz brunch"
gigs in town, but they've been locked up by the same people (one of whom is
not actually a jazz player) since before I got here. Most of the jazz
playing I do around here is either at private functions, at jams once in a
blue moon or in school concerts, not in clubs.
If you're ever in town, please do look me up; I'd love to meet you. And the
coffee's on me!
-- Bob Russell
http://www.uncwil.edu/people/russellr
Paul Sanwald
>
> Or do they think we are
> stupid enough to waste our money to that kind of rubbish?
>
somehow, I doubt these artists were concerned with whether or not we
are "stupid enough" to buy their records. Now, you might not like some
of their recordings, and that's fine, but it's silly (an inaccurate)
to form opinions about what they think, as people.
> I enjoy GOOD jazzmusic, but what do you think about this IMHO garbage?
> Be free with your comments. I am sorry if I hurt someones taste.
>
I like some of the recordings you call "garbage", but obviously you
disagree, which is cool. it takes all kinds. no need to trash
recordings you don't like, however. I guess it's better than
ambivalence, which is what I normally feel when I don't care for a
recording.
--paul
Michael Ellenberger
news:ca885084.01081...@posting.google.com...
> There was a discussion about Miles earlier, but I am wondering about
> the some weird recordings from these master players. F.e. Miles:
> Bitches brew or Silent way. Coltranes: Meditation. The stuff they play
> sounds to me very irrational, odd as some kind of spirtism, voodoo or
> other occult. I know there is some other that kind of recordings of
> course, but these popped up on my mind. I have listened those
> recordings about several years ago and I felt myself at least a fool.
> Bitches Brew has a rhytyhm, but Meditation is far from a rhythym even
> = chaos is the right word. Was it drugs or some kind of spiritual
> contact or them together? These musicians I don't like at all pharoah
> sanders and sun ra they sound to me awful.
From what I know of Coltrane, he felt a spiritual connection through the
music. Other musicians (John McLaughlin for example) look towards
meditation and spiritual beliefs to elevate their music. To some extent, I
think both Miles and Coltrane were trying to take jazz in directions that
were new. They were both tired of playing more traditional music the same
old way.
I don't know the background of Meditation but I've always wondered whether
JC got what he wanted when he recorded pieces like Ascension and other
abstract pieces. My feeling is when musicians are put in a position to play
"whatever they want" as a large group, most have a hard time playing
coherently and melodically. The end result to my ears is usually chaos that
is way off the tension scale. Maybe it reflects the anxiety of the playing
situation. I am still looking forward to the day when I go back and listen
to the late Coltrane recordings! There is a social context that could be
considered when you try to relate to this music. America was struggling
with race issues and a war was raging in Viet Nam. Things were at a boil
and I think some of this is reflected in the music.
Miles was simply looking for new sounds and a new and bigger audience.
Bitches Brew and In A Silent Way are very accessible and still sound largely
contemporary.
>
> Pat Meteheny also has a one rank of garbage recording. I can't rember
> the name (The names of other recordings can be remembered wrong too.),
> but it was awful. Just hitting his guitar without any rhythm or
> melodic or harmonic sense. One silly guestion pops up: Are these guys
> free masonary or somethingg else occultists? Or do they think we are
> stupid enough to waste our money to that kind of rubbish?
Don't count on understanding all art! Don't count on liking all art! These
works were created by artists because that's what artists do. Works of art
are not necessarily created for any reason (i.e., to make money, to make a
statement, for someone to understand, etc.).
Mike
--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Mike Ellenberger
Listen to some soundclips at
http://home.att.net/~grumpmeister/MikesJazzPage.html
Florian Schmidt
<j...@viaccess.net> wrote:
> I think I know why: I'm a coffee addict. I got up this morning and I
> was OUT of coffee. I live on a tiny Caribbean island, and there aint no
> corner store to go get more (my day will now be taken up with one long
> errand/adventure- get coffee). Anyway, I was groggy. Then I remembered
> I had a Diet Coke in the fridge, and figured that would have to do. I
> drank it over the course of fifteen or twenty minutes, and then, as I
> was throwing away the can, only then did I realize it was a Coor's
> Light. Now the situation is getting desperate. Jay
> Hear my live CD @ www.vijazz.net
i'm sooo jealous.. man i hate coffee.. so let's trade.. my coffee for
your little carribean island..
--
florian schmidt
http://mini.gt.owl.de/~floh
remove "NOSPAM." from email adress to reply
Andrew Lee
wrote:
>There was a discussion about Miles earlier, but I am wondering about
>the some weird recordings from these master players. F.e. Miles:
>Bitches brew or Silent way. Coltranes: Meditation. The stuff they play
>sounds to me very irrational, odd as some kind of spirtism, voodoo or
>other occult. I know there is some other that kind of recordings of
>course, but these popped up on my mind. I have listened those
>recordings about several years ago and I felt myself at least a fool.
>Bitches Brew has a rhytyhm, but Meditation is far from a rhythym even
>= chaos is the right word. Was it drugs or some kind of spiritual
>contact or them together? These musicians I don't like at all pharoah
>sanders and sun ra they sound to me awful.
It was the late 60's and rock music freed alot of things up ... you
could abandon form, key, tune, etc ...
Miles once said something to the effect of "I get in front of this
audience and I play some tune and then the tunes is over and they are
all supposed to clap and then I am supposed to play another tune ...
what a bunch of stupid shit!"
When you 've been there, sone that for 30 years you might want to go
over the edge and just play. My problem is with the "modern Art
Masters" who have not pais their dues ... the Jackson Pollocks of
music. I like to say "Just because no one understands you, that soes
not make you an artist!"
I prefer to think of Miles and Trane as enlightened masters who
decided to toss form and convetion and go for the absolute roots of
music. John Cage was no Vladmir Horowitz when he did his pieces for
prepeared piano. It is interesting philosophically, but it is
basically intellectual masterbation with sound. Dark Magus is a
masterpiece ... it was like Picasso's Guernica. It is raw emotion, it
is haunting. If you prefer tunes (and we all do to some extent) then
it's not your cup of tea, but you have to respect the artist for
creating sounds that no one has heard before.
Somedays I'd rather listen to "Four" than "Miles Chases the Voodo
Down." But, I agree with Miles, after a while, playing AABA ... solo,
solo, applause, next tune, repeat ... is basically the same old dumb
shit (for Miles).
Brian Wood
composition(this only lasted a semester, I quickly changed back to jazz
guitar!)
Most of the composition majors would scoff at you if you dared to bring up
the name of Bach or Mozart. It was all George Crumb, Elliot Carter, Milton
babitt, John Cage, etc.
I had the same reaction to Cage that you did Andrew, I thought they were
interesting concepts, but did not translate into good(IMO)music.
Your Jackson Pollock reference was interesting, a lot of the compostion
majors were busy composing their next chainsaw concerto or whatever(LOL)but
yet couldn't tell you anything about 4-part harmony or sonata form.
I hope I don't come off like I hate 20th century composition, because in
truth I really enjoy most of it. It seems sometimes like a hack can
declare anything "art" and then it must be so! sorry if i got a little off
topic. Andrew Lee"
<nos...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3b7b7ae3....@news.earthlink.net...
Colin Cotter
> Masters" who have not pais their dues ... the Jackson Pollocks of
> music. I like to say "Just because no one understands you, that soes
> not make you an artist!"
Jackson Pollock always seems to be being battered on this newsgroup - I
like his stuff, and I don't think it is about deliberately trying to
appear clever or anything. I leave that to Damien Hirst...
Raine Lonnakko
news:ca885084.01081...@posting.google.com...
> the some weird recordings from these master players. F.e. Miles:
> Bitches brew or Silent way. Coltranes: Meditation. The stuff they play
> sounds to me very irrational, odd as some kind of spirtism, voodoo or
> other occult. I know there is some other that kind of recordings of
> course, but these popped up on my mind. I have listened those
> recordings about several years ago and I felt myself at least a fool.
> Bitches Brew has a rhytyhm, but Meditation is far from a rhythym even
> = chaos is the right word. Was it drugs or some kind of spiritual
> contact or them together? These musicians I don't like at all pharoah
> sanders and sun ra they sound to me awful.
From what I know of Coltrane, he felt a spiritual connection through
>
> Pat Meteheny also has a one rank of garbage recording. I can't rember
> the name (The names of other recordings can be remembered wrong too.),
> but it was awful. Just hitting his guitar without any rhythm or
> melodic or harmonic sense. One silly guestion pops up: Are these guys
> free masonary or somethingg else occultists? Or do they think we are
> stupid enough to waste our money to that kind of rubbish?
Don't count on understanding all art! Don't count on liking all art!
These
works were created by artists because that's what artists do. Works
of art
are not necessarily created for any reason (i.e., to make money, to
make a
statement, for someone to understand, etc.).
Mike
--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Mike Ellenberger
________________________________________________________________________________
Thanks for your respond and of course thanks for all others.
I quessed right about those spiritual contacts. As a christian I say
they were demonized. And of course there was lots of drugs too, I have
read biographys of Davis, Bird, Monk and Dizzy.
You are right about the problems of the U.S. society in that time. But
does it really express all? About the art: I think I am an artist too.
My father is a painter of art. And myself I can draw and paint well. I
have learned myself to play guitar (drums, bass and piano and
composed/arranged tunes too) (about 15 years) and some years ago I was
hooked by jazzmusic. I have some friends who are educated
jazzmusicians who have teached me a lots of things. And I think I have
learned lots about theory and little by little it's coming to my real
time playing (thinking over the changes is getting better...) still
working (I know one life is not too long to study this music).
The art self is something else than somebody throwing tomatos to the
painting.
The word art, what does it mean? I think if somebody is really good of
something and shows it to others and they can't deny it could name as
art. If you are painting a painting you must first show to audience
that you can do basics and then more advanced things. And then you
have to contiunue doing again these advanced things or try to CREATE
even more advanced things ( Sounds ridiculous? I am sorry about my
poor english, don't give up though.). I think that even J.C., M.D. and
co. were geniuses they went too far (IMO) as those tomato throwers.
The music could be thought as an unlimited area of sounds, timing and
feelings together. I think the 12 tone "harmony" and "exact" timing
has gone to the limits of the humans trained ear. Is it time to divide
an octave (let me say) to 24 parts get something other kind of
timefeeling lets say some kind of pi divided irrational timing (heh)?
After some 100 years people could think that time before 2000 was
harmonically very monotonic perioid. Compare the time now to times
before altered tensions came to western art music (before
1700,1800,1900?).
By that background you could think those guys were making art. But in
my
opinion that "music" (rather a irrational sounds in irrational
contexts as a 45.378 tones in a octave.345 and pi/sqrt(782.4) divided
timefeeling) was made by gased and demonized people. They tried to
evolve and create new rules of music. Jazz has been that kind of
rulebreaking art all the time. Most of us who have an artist attitude
are perfectionists. We want to be better and better all the time: the
limit, light, logos is somewhere we think we someday could reach. They
were finding themselves but found nothing but even a bigger chaos out
there. Man must turn 180 degrees to face his creator and got his/her
sins forgiven and then he/she could saw him/herself as him/herself as
a sinner whos sins has totally forgiven and washed by blood of Jesus
Chirst.
There is sure given rules in real life as in music. Something good
sounds always good. Bad sounds bad even if you have listened it 1000
times. Louis and Duke said this kind of things some decades ago. It is
inbuild mechanism of the human being. I mean the sense of harmony and
melody and those relationship. You can of course ruin your taste and
sense of art by some methods mentioned before. By the way I have heard
(seen some films too) some soundtracks from horror movies and them use
lots of lots of huge tensions (tritonus over tritonus and even more
tritonuses over tritonus) and irrational surprising themes (melody?).
And always somebody is going to kill sombody or just at that moment
hitting with an axe a head apart from others body, of course there is
maybe some drops of blood streaming in the darkest night in the heavy
raining and thunderstorms with weird noices screaming. Is this that
people want nowadays? Rules or no rules at all? Phew ! Sick !
We can have our own opinions still... I do have my extremely own,
Raine
PS: I don't claim I am perfect :) in anything myself. But I know I am
perfect in Christ.
PSS: Feel free to respond.
Michael Ellenberger
news:ca885084.01081...@posting.google.com...
SNIP earlier post...
Your English is better than my Finish?
> I quessed right about those spiritual contacts. As a christian I say
> they were demonized.
What on earth is that supposed to mean? I am no religious expert but the
Christians have spilled a lot of blood over the centuries so being a
Christian does not automatically give truth to your statements. To call
their music demonized is a lot of hog wash. I feel like we are back in the
days of the Spanish Inqusition!
And of course there was lots of drugs too, I have
> read biographys of Davis, Bird, Monk and Dizzy.
>
> You are right about the problems of the U.S. society in that time. But
> does it really express all? About the art: I think I am an artist too.
> My father is a painter of art. And myself I can draw and paint well. I
> have learned myself to play guitar (drums, bass and piano and
> composed/arranged tunes too) (about 15 years) and some years ago I was
> hooked by jazzmusic. I have some friends who are educated
> jazzmusicians who have teached me a lots of things. And I think I have
> learned lots about theory and little by little it's coming to my real
> time playing (thinking over the changes is getting better...) still
> working (I know one life is not too long to study this music).
>
> The art self is something else than somebody throwing tomatos to the
> painting.
> The word art, what does it mean? I think if somebody is really good of
> something and shows it to others and they can't deny it could name as
> art. If you are painting a painting you must first show to audience
> that you can do basics and then more advanced things. And then you
> have to contiunue doing again these advanced things or try to CREATE
> even more advanced things ( Sounds ridiculous? I am sorry about my
> poor english, don't give up though.). I think that even J.C., M.D. and
> co. were geniuses they went too far (IMO) as those tomato throwers.
What better musicians were there to push the boundaries than MD and JC?
It's not like they hadn't spent their entire lives perfecting their art. I
think these guys truely earned the right to "throw tomatos at a canvas" and
we owe it to ourselves to pay attention and not dismiss their work.
SNIP
> By that background you could think those guys were making art. But in
> my
> opinion that "music" (rather a irrational sounds in irrational
> contexts as a 45.378 tones in a octave.345 and pi/sqrt(782.4) divided
> timefeeling) was made by gased and demonized people.
Categorizing the music in this way only serves to close your mind. It's a
convienent mechanism to justifying hating something you don't understand and
are probably afraid of.
They tried to
> evolve and create new rules of music. Jazz has been that kind of
> rulebreaking art all the time. Most of us who have an artist attitude
> are perfectionists. We want to be better and better all the time: the
> limit, light, logos is somewhere we think we someday could reach. They
> were finding themselves but found nothing but even a bigger chaos out
> there.
That's hard to say. I don't know if either ever talked about their later
works. And if their music did reflect some chaos, isn't that just another
facet of life?
Man must turn 180 degrees to face his creator and got his/her
> sins forgiven and then he/she could saw him/herself as him/herself as
> a sinner whos sins has totally forgiven and washed by blood of Jesus
> Chirst.
You're sounding a bit fanatical now. Lawson might be able to converse in
these terms but I'd rather you just say what you mean.
>
> There is sure given rules in real life as in music. Something good
> sounds always good. Bad sounds bad even if you have listened it 1000
> times. Louis and Duke said this kind of things some decades ago.
It is
> inbuild mechanism of the human being. I mean the sense of harmony and
> melody and those relationship. You can of course ruin your taste and
> sense of art by some methods mentioned before. By the way I have heard
> (seen some films too) some soundtracks from horror movies and them use
> lots of lots of huge tensions (tritonus over tritonus and even more
> tritonuses over tritonus) and irrational surprising themes (melody?).
> And always somebody is going to kill sombody or just at that moment
> hitting with an axe a head apart from others body, of course there is
> maybe some drops of blood streaming in the darkest night in the heavy
> raining and thunderstorms with weird noices screaming. Is this that
> people want nowadays? Rules or no rules at all? Phew ! Sick !
I think you should spend less time focusing on such dark and ugly aspects of
life and really try to find beauty and happiness. It's not healthy to spend
so much time in "the depths" and I think it tends to color your perception
of reality.
>
> We can have our own opinions still... I do have my extremely own,
> Raine
> PS: I don't claim I am perfect :) in anything myself. But I know I am
> perfect in Christ.
You are a contradiction. Alarm bells should be going off.
Mike
Paul Sanwald
>
> The jazz scene here... well... There are quite a few "players" but not many
> players. Rhythm sections are especially problematic.
>
hi bob, does alvin atkinson still teach at uncw a coupla days a month?
I saw him a while back and he said he was teaching there sometimes.
he's a hell of a drummer, eh?
--paul
Bob Russell
> hi bob, does alvin atkinson still teach at uncw a coupla days a month?
> I saw him a while back and he said he was teaching there sometimes.
> he's a hell of a drummer, eh?
Yes, he is. I miss him like you wouldn't believe. :(
Alvin moved to New York roughly a year ago; last I heard, he was involved in
a "tribute to Billy Higgins" concert of some kind and was playing with
Houston Person, among others. He's a mighty fine drummer and person, one of
those guys who makes the music better just by being there.
RobinsonCHAZZ
others of the Avant-garde to the music that is being discussed. The record
companies and press didn't know how to label the new music that was developing
so they made this assumption. John Cage hated jazz, he saw improvisers as being
trapped in the old harmonic rat trap that he was trying to escape. Cecil Taylor
with whom I have studied and played sees himself more as coming from places
that were explored by people like Duke and Brubeck. Don Cherry with whom I also
studied saw what he was doing as just another way of playing jazz. In fact I
have been exposed to and played with quite a few figures of what became called
the "Avant-garde" and to a man they all considered what they were doing to be
an extension of what had come before. Charlie Robinson
jaz...@webtv.net
stated the prime elements at work here. I think this piece has something
to do with the "black" experience. One of the images I see is Miles in
the ring dancing like Ali - smooth, deliberate and stalking. Then POW.
He delivers a forceful punch. This continues and repeats. So it does
follow a traditional musical device- repetition.
There are opposite themes at play here which create a settled
uneasiness. But none of the piece sounds contrived. It seems that the
movements are the building blocks of the development. I find this work
conceptually intriguing. It stands as a testament to what an artist
Miles Davis is in relating his personal experience and search for
innovative musical concepts. And it continues to disturb some people.
(Side note to Victor M in his response to the topic Benson's Billie's
Bounce: I listened to "The Artistry of Wes Montgomery" and found many
examples. I agree with you. Thanks.)
Ron
Raine Lonnakko
to comment again :)
> Your English is better than my Finish?
Can you speak any finnish? I respect you if you can, because of it's
one
of the most challenging langages in this world.
> > I quessed right about those spiritual contacts. As a christian I say
> > they were demonized.
> What on earth is that supposed to mean? I am no religious expert but the
> Christians have spilled a lot of blood over the centuries so being a
> Christian does not automatically give truth to your statements. To call
> their music demonized is a lot of hog wash. I feel like we are back in the
> days of the Spanish Inqusition!
I just tried to express my feelings while I was listening (especially
Meditation by JC) the musical events. JC (and others) created lots of
tensions or even supernatural tensions without releasing them as they
were in contact to the other side.
Of course my opinion is including my religios wiev. I can only say the
blood spreading is not real christianity. There is a religion and real
FAITH and these are far from each other. Religios people have manners
and laws. They are to earn the salvation.
True believer can't kill or hurt anybody. The golden rule sais (in my
words): Love The Lord your God by all your heart and soul AND your
brothers (all humans) as yourself. Of course even (<-- heh) true
believer is not perfect or better than non believers, but he believes
in Jesus that's why he differs. The faith in Jesus that He can save us
from ourselves and all bad things (murders and other imoralities) is
the main point. AS you could imagine if all people acted like the
golden rule sais the world could be better place to live.
I can't deny CP, DG, MD, JC, TM or many others were great. But even
though
the rulebreaking itself is not an art. They did lot's of great
creatures, but
you can't also deny that even them were not perfect in musics. They
tried to
rech something supernatural. They were as you said tired all
traditional even
bebop (which wasn't yet traditional then). They were seeking the
borders of the current western music like scientists. BUT as I said
there was a chaos out there if we analyzy it with our western trad.
trained ears. So that's why I again make a statement: Not EVERYTHING
they created was art. If they were sitting in the closet (WC) making
their needs: was it art? ( :) heh heh...) Or when they used
heroin injections? That's one thing I tried to say. To be honest.
> > By that background you could think those guys were making art. But in
> > my
> > opinion that "music" (rather a irrational sounds in irrational
> > contexts as a 45.378 tones in a octave.345 and pi/sqrt(782.4) divided
> > timefeeling) was made by gased and demonized people.
>
> Categorizing the music in this way only serves to close your mind. It's a
> convienent mechanism to justifying hating something you don't understand and
> are probably afraid of.
I don't close my mind but BE MYSELF. Not sombody else. I like what I
like. Someone other like the other things. But I must be HONEST to
myself as you do too. About 10 years ago I made a couple of paintings
that my art teacher blamed rubbish (not strictly but we all heard it
by her way to reweiv).
All of my friends (and other people) said that you are even genius and
praised my works, but this teacher ranked them low. I felt really
angry. I thought she was only jealous. I said my opinion strictly to
her and she turned to be a winner because it was just that she were
EXPECTED and of course strengthen her opinions and attitude to me. My
personality is very strict and fast to act before I think :). That is
too bad sometimes...
But there was an another wiev. She was an occultist (this is true
because she has told it in local newspaper) and she knew my faith. I
knew her opinions about art and it was closer the rulebreaking than
real art. We discussed later (when
I apogolized my strict words to her) about our faiths and it cleared
the totally difference between our worldwiev.
I like the beutiful things in this world: beautiful wievs, rivers
flowing, water falls, mountains, lakes, birds singing and flying,
animals in the nature and those you rest enjoy. But these people are
seeking ugly things: night, dakrness, tension, supernatural things.
They are tired all the ordinary things. And this is an art? I don't
mean now only JC, MD (which before and later testified many times that
they are true artsists, I can't and don't want to deny it) were done
ugly things. They just missed sometimes to think EVERYTHING is
beautyful. Even they were doing sometimes CRAP... As all geniuses do
crap sometimes.
> They tried to
> > evolve and create new rules of music. Jazz has been that kind of
> > rulebreaking art all the time. Most of us who have an artist attitude
> > are perfectionists. We want to be better and better all the time: the
> > limit, light, logos is somewhere we think we someday could reach. They
> > were finding themselves but found nothing but even a bigger chaos out
> > there.
>
> That's hard to say. I don't know if either ever talked about their later
> works. And if their music did reflect some chaos, isn't that just another
> facet of life?
:) They were as we are now in same opinion seeking something more.
> Man must turn 180 degrees to face his creator and got his/her
> > sins forgiven and then he/she could saw him/herself as him/herself as
> > a sinner whos sins has totally forgiven and washed by blood of Jesus
> > Chirst.
>
> You're sounding a bit fanatical now. Lawson might be able to converse in
> these terms but I'd rather you just say what you mean.
I am sorry to be a fanatical, but it's impossible to talk about these
things without strictness. Thanks to Jesus, I am saved (I believe so).
By His mercy i am who i am and nothing less or more. I do have my own
opinions as you all have yours.
> >
> > There is sure given rules in real life as in music. Something good
> > sounds always good. Bad sounds bad even if you have listened it 1000
> > times. Louis and Duke said this kind of things some decades ago.
> It is
> > inbuild mechanism of the human being. I mean the sense of harmony and
> > melody and those relationship. You can of course ruin your taste and
> > sense of art by some methods mentioned before. By the way I have heard
> > (seen some films too) some soundtracks from horror movies and them use
> > lots of lots of huge tensions (tritonus over tritonus and even more
> > tritonuses over tritonus) and irrational surprising themes (melody?).
> > And always somebody is going to kill sombody or just at that moment
> > hitting with an axe a head apart from others body, of course there is
> > maybe some drops of blood streaming in the darkest night in the heavy
> > raining and thunderstorms with weird noices screaming. Is this that
> > people want nowadays? Rules or no rules at all? Phew ! Sick !
>
> I think you should spend less time focusing on such dark and ugly aspects of
> life and really try to find beauty and happiness. It's not healthy to spend
> so much time in "the depths" and I think it tends to color your perception
> of reality.
Thats true :) . But I liked to share my expirence with you guys. I
wondered If someone else felt like me those (some recordings) music is
sick or awful. My opinion of course is based on my faith as you know
now. As I said I like all the beutiful things as you rest do. Why to
say those ugly things are beutiful. The word beutiful suffers (Of
course it's so huge scale of opinions we have...) by it. Again in my
opinion.
> >
> > We can have our own opinions still... I do have my extremely own,
> > Raine
> > PS: I don't claim I am perfect :) in anything myself. But I know I am
> > perfect in Christ.
>
> You are a contradiction. Alarm bells should be going off.
>
> Mike
Those two last sentences don't understand what you mean? Could you
please explain more? It is because of my vocabularity in english isn't
too good.
PS: By the way has somebody experiment with this kind of bebop
oriented scale I created (I don't know other creators yet but maybe
soon... :) : R - 2(9) - m3 - 4(11) - 5 - b6(b13) - 6(13) - M7. The 8
note scale which can be turned also to a chord scale and thought also
modally as normal jazzminor is used in many contexts. As a chord scale
it has many useful options. I have played and wrote some ii-V patterns
and I think they sound cool. This scale is based as you see on
jazzminor, but it has b6(b13) in it as does have major bebop scale. So
they are very close each other but the third differs (of course). This
b6 (b13) is little bit confusing at first in modally thinking. F.e.
iim7b5 (lets say dm7b5)
could be thought as iv jazzminor orinted bebopscale which is F minor
but now it has also Db in it which is major 7th in dm7b5. This note is
also a passing note but could be thought as inside harmonically
(dmb5). Also another easy try is V7alt (lets say now G7alt) which is
usually thought as vib jazzminor. Put this b6 (b13) extra note in the
scale which is Eb (6 or 13) in G7alt (alt in a new context). This 13
could thought taken from dimnished scale as f.e. Montogomery often
used over V7. So this one extra note gets jazzminor to 8th note scale
and it sounds I think cool. In harmonic context V7 should have this b6
(b13) as a passing note. But who denies it to be used as a extra
tension like familar chord V13b9 which could now on thought little
bit different way. In chord soloing these 4 m6 and 4 dimnished chords
(inversions) are usable in that traditional modal jazzminor thinking.
What do you guys think?
Raine
Colin Cotter
> to do with the "black" experience. One of the images I see is Miles in
> the ring dancing like Ali - smooth, deliberate and stalking. Then POW.
> He delivers a forceful punch. This continues and repeats. So it does
> follow a traditional musical device- repetition.
Nice image. I see African savannah landscapes.
Raine Lonnakko
> could abandon form, key, tune, etc ...
> Miles once said something to the effect of "I get in front of this
> audience and I play some tune and then the tunes is over and they are
> all supposed to clap and then I am supposed to play another tune ...
> what a bunch of stupid shit!"
I understand something about their attiudes. They have had experiments
very vast area of trad. and modern (then) jazz and were absolyte in
spearhead in it. As I said I have read something (some novels and
biographys concerning about these musicians and their background) and
listened something hundreds of recordings. Can't still say I have
reached their time but got something. And in my opinion everything
even those artists made is not art.
> When you 've been there, sone that for 30 years you might want to go
> over the edge and just play. My problem is with the "modern Art
> Masters" who have not pais their dues ... the Jackson Pollocks of
> music. I like to say "Just because no one understands you, that soes
> not make you an artist!"
Yes indeed! (soes = does ?) That's why I am wondering if there is
somebody else who is brave enough to say that everythig they played
wasn't really art or beutiful, but rather an exploration to new
contents.
> I prefer to think of Miles and Trane as enlightened masters who
> decided to toss form and convetion and go for the absolute roots of
> music. John Cage was no Vladmir Horowitz when he did his pieces for
> prepeared piano. It is interesting philosophically, but it is
> basically intellectual masterbation with sound. Dark Magus is a
> masterpiece ... it was like Picasso's Guernica. It is raw emotion, it
> is haunting. If you prefer tunes (and we all do to some extent) then
> it's not your cup of tea, but you have to respect the artist for
> creating sounds that no one has heard before.
Of course we must respect artists themselves, BUT the art self is
meaned to be to critisize. I have expirienced in that with my own
creatures. Sometimes you are praised sometimes they shoot you in your
back. I don't still apogolize that I am claiming some those tunes(?)
as a crap. I must respect my own taste as you all do yours. And that's
why I am here to share my opinions. Of course my personality and my
faith are one of the basis in my opinions. So you do have your owns. I
have written more about these to Mike earlier.
> Somedays I'd rather listen to "Four" than "Miles Chases the Voodo
> Down." But, I agree with Miles, after a while, playing AABA ... solo,
> solo, applause, next tune, repeat ... is basically the same old dumb
> shit (for Miles).
I agree also, BUT (<-- heh) did those voodoo things reach anything
better things to enjoy. In classical (western trad.) music there is
usually not AABA forms either but a movement of sounds. Miles liked to
say that if you are WRITING music its same that you're going to arrest
it and judge it into "jail of form" and images (notes are
painted/printed) (In my words) than and living sound. Thats why I
could understand avant-garde, but these ugly things fights against my
ears and my sense of musical taste.
> >Pat Meteheny also has a ONE rank of garbage recording. I can't rember
> >the name...
SNIP...
But maybe you gus remember it. Could you please comment this Methenys
"crap"? one. :)
Raine
Brian Wood
Silence."
Brian Wood
"Raine Lonnakko" <rlon...@paju.oulu.fi> wrote in message
news:ca885084.01081...@posting.google.com...
Zappabark
"Raine Lonnakko" <rlon...@paju.oulu.fi> wrote in message
news:ca885084.01081...@posting.google.com...
> Pat Meteheny also has a one rank of garbage recording. I can't rember
> the name (The names of other recordings can be remembered wrong too.),
> but it was awful. Just hitting his guitar without any rhythm or
> melodic or harmonic sense. One silly guestion pops up: Are these guys
> free masonary or somethingg else occultists? Or do they think we are
> stupid enough to waste our money to that kind of rubbish?
I was stupid enough to waste my money on that one... It was horrible (I
believe that I listened to about 1/4 of it and haven't since). I figure
that if Pat Metheny can release that crap, I should be able to find a record
contract somewhere.... Seriously though, I always suspected that this album
was done because he was pissed at his record company (i.e. you won't let me
out of this contract now that I'm someone - fine. I'll just release this to
piss you off because I know it won't sell). I don't have any idea if this
is true or not, but it sure seemed like a *drastic* departure, even for the
sometimes musically fickle Pat.
ZB
--
http://www.spencerseidelgroup.com
Colin Cotter
************
Colin Cotter
************
Michael Ellenberger
news:ca885084.01081...@posting.google.com...
> to comment again :)
>
> > Your English is better than my Finish?
>
> Can you speak any finnish? I respect you if you can, because of it's
> one
> of the most challenging langages in this world.
Whoops, that's Finnish that I don't speak.
> > >
> > > We can have our own opinions still... I do have my extremely own,
> > > Raine
> > > PS: I don't claim I am perfect :) in anything myself. But I know I am
> > > perfect in Christ.
First you claim NOT to be perfect in anything. Next you say "I am perfect
in Christ". This is a contradiction. Maybe you are misusing the word
perfect? In any case, thinking you're perfect in anything is a convienent
way to stop examining yourself and your beliefs. I don't see how this if
beneficial.
Does all art have to be beautiful? It seems from reading your posts that
this is one of your criteria.
Mike
Victor Magnani
hell out of a bunch of guitars, none of which are quite in tune. Every
two years or so I pull it out and try to listen to it to see if there
was something I missed the first time around. So far the answer is
still a resounding "NO". I can't make it through without developing a
pounding headache.
I think he was sincere in his approach to this record - it was also put
out at a budget price when it was released. I think I remember reading
somewhere that Pat admitted he missed the mark with it. Gotta give him
credit for trying new things though. He really had nothing to gain by
putting a record like that, but he could alienate lots of fans of "The
Group".
Not every painting by Picasso is a masterpiece. But, like Pat, no one
can accuse him of standing still.
Victor
--
Victor Magnani
vmagn...@netscape.net
www.crookedmusic.com
jaz...@webtv.net
Did you know that this Sunday marks the anniversary of the recording
date for Bitches Brew which was 8/19/69? If not, maybe there is divine
intervention at play so we never forget:)
I am sure in your country there are boxers that train with a punching
speedbag. You know the little teardrop air bag that fighters hit to work
on their coordination. Next time you listen to Bitches Brew listen to
Miles play that elephant like trumpet charge in the beginning and end of
the song. Note the rhythmic pattern. Does it sound a little like the
speedbag after it gets hits? I think so.
Also, I wonder what you think of the music by the group "Weather
Report"?
Ron
...Diversity of sound is the university of music ...limits are for
machines not humans...
Johnny Asia
>Raine,
> Did you know that this Sunday marks the anniversary of the recording
>date for Bitches Brew which was 8/19/69? If not, maybe there is divine
>intervention at play so we never forget:) >>
Speaking of divine intervention, I first heard Bitches Brew in early
1970, it was given to me by a friend who had just been "born again",
his pastor urged him to give up all his "demonic" music, so he gave
me all his rock and jazz records. When I played Bitches Brew, I
said "Eureka!!" I was saved on that glorious day.
> Also, I wonder what you think of the music by the group "Weather
>Report"?>>
I was lucky enough to be at their first American gig, in the Village.
They were sharing the bill with a band called "Eggs Over Easy"
Talk about cognitive dissonance!
Johnny Asia
http://www.mp3.com/johnnyasia
WARNING!!
Blatant self promo follows:
Johnny Asia at the Knitting Factory
Knitactive Sound Stage
Thursday, September 6, 11:00 PM
74 Leonard Street
New York, NY
http://www.knittingfactory.com/calendar/ka_next_month.cfm?use_date=8%2F1%2F2001
Common Sense Almanac
http://come.to/commonsense
Joe Finn
"Victor Magnani" <vmagn...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:3B7D5FC3...@netscape.net...
>
> I think he was sincere in his approach to this record - it was also put
> out at a budget price when it was released. I think I remember reading
> somewhere that Pat admitted he missed the mark with it. Gotta give him
> credit for trying new things though. He really had nothing to gain by
> putting a record like that, but he could alienate lots of fans of "The
> Group".
>
I had heard that that record was done to satisfy a contractual obligation.
...joe
Visit me on the web. www.JoeFinn.net
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Max Leggett
>"Victor Magnani" <vmagn...@netscape.net> wrote in message
>news:3B7D5FC3...@netscape.net...
>>
>> I think he was sincere in his approach to this record - it was also put
>> out at a budget price when it was released. I think I remember reading
>> somewhere that Pat admitted he missed the mark with it. Gotta give him
>> credit for trying new things though. He really had nothing to gain by
>> putting a record like that, but he could alienate lots of fans of "The
>> Group".
>>
>
>I had heard that that record was done to satisfy a contractual obligation.
Like The Stones putting out Cocksucker Blues to finish their
obligations with Decca.
Raine Lonnakko
> > > > We can have our own opinions still... I do have my extremely own,
> > > > Raine
> > > > PS: I don't claim I am perfect :) in anything myself. But I know I am
> > > > perfect in Christ.
> First you claim NOT to be perfect in anything. Next you say "I am perfect
> in Christ". This is a contradiction. Maybe you are misusing the word
> perfect? In any case, thinking you're perfect in anything is a convienent
> way to stop examining yourself and your beliefs. I don't see how this if
> beneficial.
Explanation (which is said before in that PS):
Read it once again or next: I am just a sinner by myself, but after I
borned again (believed Jesus and confessed my sins) I have been saved.
God is looking me THROUGH Jesus and sees me perfect in Christ = good
enough, perfect, forgiven sinner, saved. That's only because of Jesus
died on the cross for me. This is love and MERCY.
> Does all art have to be beautiful? It seems from reading your posts that
> this is one of your criteria.
It's hard to explain. Maybe I like beutiful art but it depends of
course on my eyes. The beautiness is in everyones eyes this is finnish
phrase in my words. Is there better translation, I don't know?
But I can't imagine art without any tension on it. If there is nothing
but a tension and "darkness" in it its not my taste. John Scofield is
that kind of guitarist that usually creates lots of tension without
release. He is great player anyway but I can't listen to him hours
after hours. As some of Coreas music. Mark Levine said in his book (in
my words): Play tritonus 10 times before you go to sleep... can't
sleep before you go back to piano or guitar or ... and release the
tension :) So the tension is good sometimes but imo release is as
important too.
Raine
Raine Lonnakko
> Did you know that this Sunday marks the anniversary of the recording
> date for Bitches Brew which was 8/19/69? If not, maybe there is divine
> intervention at play so we never forget:)
I knew it's made in 69, but didn't check the exact time.
> I am sure in your country there are boxers that train with a punching
> speedbag. You know the little teardrop air bag that fighters hit to work
> on their coordination. Next time you listen to Bitches Brew listen to
> Miles play that elephant like trumpet charge in the beginning and end of
> the song. Note the rhythmic pattern. Does it sound a little like the
> speedbag after it gets hits? I think so.
> Also, I wonder what you think of the music by the group "Weather
> Report"?
Of course Miles has good time and rhythm patterns, but the overall
feeling in that BB is against my taste.
Weather report. Hmmm some tunes yes some tunes no. What albums
escpecially? I remember very clearly on the "heavy weather" the tune:
was it "teen town" (?)(composed by pastorius) which is played by many
others afterwards. It has somewhere in middle a part descending
tritonuses. Tension releases but was it still in dom 7h jamming in the
end of tune gotta listen it again? Acuna didn't use straight snare
(almost) at all.
Great players though: Acuna, Pastorius can't remember other players
now.
What do you like Koinonia (Acuna, Laboriel, Dean Parks, Hodley
Hockensmith, Bill Maxwell, some other players)? I like also Larry
Carlton and Lee Ritenour some albums, some are bad though. The 70 's
and mixed early 80's sounds (rhodes, some moog or clavier riffs and
sometimes the thumbbase with those 70's fender jazzbass sound and the
drums with those nice fat sounds : without too much effffffffects...).
Of course there is lots of other cool stuff still.
> ...Diversity of sound is the university of music ...limits are for
> machines not humans...
Maybe there is some limits though in herzes (Hz)?
Raine
Tom Walls
Michael.E...@compaq.com says...
snip
> > The art self is something else than somebody throwing tomatos to the
> > painting.
> > The word art, what does it mean? I think if somebody is really good of
> > something and shows it to others and they can't deny it could name as
> > art. If you are painting a painting you must first show to audience
> > that you can do basics and then more advanced things. And then you
> > have to contiunue doing again these advanced things or try to CREATE
> > even more advanced things ( Sounds ridiculous? I am sorry about my
> > poor english, don't give up though.). I think that even J.C., M.D. and
> > co. were geniuses they went too far (IMO) as those tomato throwers.
>
> What better musicians were there to push the boundaries than MD and JC?
> It's not like they hadn't spent their entire lives perfecting their art. I
> think these guys truely earned the right to "throw tomatos at a canvas" and
> we owe it to ourselves to pay attention and not dismiss their work.
>
Good words, my man!
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
http://www.arts.cornell.edu/zeus/
Michael Ellenberger
Going from Finnish to English and then through the theological translator
seems to have clouded what Raine is saying.
Thanks,
Mike
--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Mike Ellenberger
Listen to some soundclips at
http://home.att.net/~grumpmeister/MikesJazzPage.html
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
"Raine Lonnakko" <rlon...@paju.oulu.fi> wrote in message
news:ca885084.01082...@posting.google.com...
> > Whoops, that's Finnish that I don't speak.
>
> > > > > We can have our own opinions still... I do have my extremely own,
> > > > > Raine
> > > > > PS: I don't claim I am perfect :) in anything myself. But I know I
am
> > > > > perfect in Christ.
>
> > First you claim NOT to be perfect in anything. Next you say "I am
perfect
> > in Christ". This is a contradiction. Maybe you are misusing the word
> > perfect? In any case, thinking you're perfect in anything is a
convienent
> > way to stop examining yourself and your beliefs. I don't see how this
if
> > beneficial.
>
ATTENTION LAWSON....
> Explanation (which is said before in that PS):
>
> Read it once again or next: I am just a sinner by myself, but after I
> borned again (believed Jesus and confessed my sins) I have been saved.
> God is looking me THROUGH Jesus and sees me perfect in Christ = good
> enough, perfect, forgiven sinner, saved. That's only because of Jesus
> died on the cross for me. This is love and MERCY.
>
> > Does all art have to be beautiful? It seems from reading your posts
that
> > this is one of your criteria.
>
> It's hard to explain. Maybe I like beutiful art but it depends of
> course on my eyes. The beautiness is in everyones eyes this is finnish
> phrase in my words. Is there better translation, I don't know?
We say beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
>
> But I can't imagine art without any tension on it. If there is nothing
> but a tension and "darkness" in it its not my taste.
I agree. Some folks seem to tolerate larger doses of tension than I like.