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Soloing Over Caravan
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John Link
Jul 17, 2012, 6:52:09 PM7/17/12
to
A customer at a place where I play regularly has requested of me to play the tune Caravan. In that tune there is a six bar stretch of G dimished chords into two bars of F minor. Other than the G dimished scale and the G# harmonic minor scale what other ideas would work well over the G dimished? All suggestions are welcome, thanks.
TD
Jul 17, 2012, 7:38:24 PM7/17/12
to
On Jul 17, 6:52 pm, John Link <johnlinkj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> A customer at a place where I play regularly has requested of me to play the tune Caravan. In that tune there is a six bar stretch of G dimished chords into two bars of F minor. Other than the G dimished scale and the G# harmonic minor scale what other ideas would work well over the G dimished? All suggestions are welcome, thanks.
Try a NYC potato knish before you fool around with anything dimish.
> A customer at a place where I play regularly has requested of me to play the tune Caravan. In that tune there is a six bar stretch of G dimished chords into two bars of F minor. Other than the G dimished scale and the G# harmonic minor scale what other ideas would work well over the G dimished? All suggestions are welcome, thanks.
You'll never go back.
-TD
thomas
Jul 17, 2012, 8:50:42 PM7/17/12
to
On Tuesday, July 17, 2012 6:52:09 PM UTC-4, John Link wrote:
> A customer at a place where I play regularly has requested of me to play the tune Caravan. In that tune there is a six bar stretch of G dimished chords into two bars of F minor. Other than the G dimished scale and the G# harmonic minor scale what other ideas would work well over the G dimished? All suggestions are welcome, thanks.
Almost anything at all so long as you resolve to the F minor at the right time. C dominant licks and F blues scale will always work.
> A customer at a place where I play regularly has requested of me to play the tune Caravan. In that tune there is a six bar stretch of G dimished chords into two bars of F minor. Other than the G dimished scale and the G# harmonic minor scale what other ideas would work well over the G dimished? All suggestions are welcome, thanks.
van
Jul 18, 2012, 2:32:24 AM7/18/12
to
On Tuesday, July 17, 2012 6:52:09 PM UTC-4, John Link wrote:
> A customer at a place where I play regularly has requested of me to play the tune Caravan. In that tune there is a six bar stretch of G dimished chords into two bars of F minor. Other than the G dimished scale and the G# harmonic minor scale what other ideas would work well over the G dimished? All suggestions are welcome, thanks.
I don't see where a G# Harmonic Minor scale with a B Natural would work against a G diminished 7th/C7b9 chord.
I think you meant a C# Melodic Minor scale.
Like TB said, any C7 altered scale ideas would work, if you resolve it to Fm at the right time.
John Gray's arrangement of Caravan was so hip, they stole it for the musical "SWING!". It's on the only record he made as a leader, "The New Wave".
Whenever we play the big band chart on Caravan in this one band I play in, I always yell out, "Play Caravan with a drum solo!", a Zappa quote. Everybody looks at me like I'm nuts.
TD
Jul 18, 2012, 8:22:30 AM7/18/12
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jimmybruno
Jul 18, 2012, 10:43:16 AM7/18/12
to
On Jul 17, 6:52 pm, John Link <johnlinkj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> A customer at a place where I play regularly has requested of me to play the tune Caravan. In that tune there is a six bar stretch of G dimished chords into two bars of F minor. Other than the G dimished scale and the G# harmonic minor scale what other ideas would work well over the G dimished? All suggestions are welcome, thanks.
The chord is a C7 not G dim
Bill Williams
Jul 18, 2012, 11:05:49 AM7/18/12
to
Soloing over caravan is not really to be recommended unless you have a particularly good head for heights and are playing an inexpensive guitar.
However I have found that soloing in caravan can be a satisfying experience (especially one with an ocean view) and neighbours in other caravans often express their appreciation.
BW
However I have found that soloing in caravan can be a satisfying experience (especially one with an ocean view) and neighbours in other caravans often express their appreciation.
BW
Greger Hoel
Jul 18, 2012, 11:34:27 AM7/18/12
to
On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 17:05:49 +0200, Bill Williams
<bwbillwi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Soloing over caravan is not really to be recommended unless you have a
> particularly good head for heights and are playing an inexpensive guitar.
Or are standing on a bridge:
<bwbillwi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Soloing over caravan is not really to be recommended unless you have a
> particularly good head for heights and are playing an inexpensive guitar.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GR5yi9b3eY
> However I have found that soloing in caravan can be a satisfying
> experience (especially one with an ocean view) and neighbours in other
> caravans often express their appreciation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nCP43KS2kk
--
Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
TD
Jul 18, 2012, 11:48:46 AM7/18/12
to
incited by the OP's bastardized spelling of diminished (intentional or
not). A lot can be learned from studying the Jewish folk song: Hava
Nagilah. Since Caravan is terribly Harmonic minor driven, the
"Phrygian" inclination of the C7alt. is more than an inclination. The
V7 type chord in Fharm minor produces that hava nagilah sound due to
the b9 and b13 present in the voicing (Usually C7b9/11/b13) These
intervals coincide with b6 and b3 of Fharm minor scale. The Db7
change, which is often utilized as ancillary to C7 takes advantage of
the inherent exotic "caravanny" quality of the augmented 2nd. E note
stays fixed if F-maj7 is utilized as the I minor ( although most guys
use F-6 as the iminor, thus borrowing from melodic minor scale
harmony, it is merely an alternate voicing of i minor large) and that
E note is an integral common tone with the V7 chord (it's 3rd), so the
F, or 3rd of the oft used "mechanism" chord: Db7 used to exploit the
"exoticness" of the aug. 2nd, makes a 'shoe in' of a voice lead to
that E note ( it's root is also a semitone away from the D in F-6)
common to the Imin large and the alt V7. Study the hell out of the
harmonic minor scale for this. Licks are fine, but understanding,
realizing and finally *hearing* resonance (suggested against a pedal
tone of a root and/or fifth as a practice at home thing) will usually
get the biscuit.
-TD
Greger Hoel
Jul 18, 2012, 12:16:51 PM7/18/12
to
On Wed, 18 Jul 2012 17:48:46 +0200, TD <tonyde...@gmail.com> wrote:
> OK, then perhaps I can spell it out for you concerning my humor
> incited by the OP's bastardized spelling of diminished (intentional or
> not). A lot can be learned from studying the Jewish folk song: Hava
> Nagilah. Since Caravan is terribly Harmonic minor driven, the
> "Phrygian" inclination of the C7alt. is more than an inclination. The
> V7 type chord in Fharm minor produces that hava nagilah sound due to
> the b9 and b13 present in the voicing (Usually C7b9/11/b13) These
> intervals coincide with b6 and b3 of Fharm minor scale. The Db7
> change, which is often utilized as ancillary to C7 takes advantage of
> the inherent exotic "caravanny" quality of the augmented 2nd. E note
> stays fixed if F-maj7 is utilized as the I minor ( although most guys
> use F-6 as the iminor, thus borrowing from melodic minor scale
> harmony, it is merely an alternate voicing of i minor large) and that
> E note is an integral common tone with the V7 chord (it's 3rd), so the
> F, or 3rd of the oft used "mechanism" chord: Db7 used to exploit the
> "exoticness" of the aug. 2nd, makes a 'shoe in' of a voice lead to
> that E note ( it's root is also a semitone away from the D in F-6)
> common to the Imin large and the alt V7. Study the hell out of the
> harmonic minor scale for this. Licks are fine, but understanding,
> realizing and finally *hearing* resonance (suggested against a pedal
> tone of a root and/or fifth as a practice at home thing) will usually
> get the biscuit.
This goes right into my jazz ed folder---thanks!
> OK, then perhaps I can spell it out for you concerning my humor
> incited by the OP's bastardized spelling of diminished (intentional or
> not). A lot can be learned from studying the Jewish folk song: Hava
> Nagilah. Since Caravan is terribly Harmonic minor driven, the
> "Phrygian" inclination of the C7alt. is more than an inclination. The
> V7 type chord in Fharm minor produces that hava nagilah sound due to
> the b9 and b13 present in the voicing (Usually C7b9/11/b13) These
> intervals coincide with b6 and b3 of Fharm minor scale. The Db7
> change, which is often utilized as ancillary to C7 takes advantage of
> the inherent exotic "caravanny" quality of the augmented 2nd. E note
> stays fixed if F-maj7 is utilized as the I minor ( although most guys
> use F-6 as the iminor, thus borrowing from melodic minor scale
> harmony, it is merely an alternate voicing of i minor large) and that
> E note is an integral common tone with the V7 chord (it's 3rd), so the
> F, or 3rd of the oft used "mechanism" chord: Db7 used to exploit the
> "exoticness" of the aug. 2nd, makes a 'shoe in' of a voice lead to
> that E note ( it's root is also a semitone away from the D in F-6)
> common to the Imin large and the alt V7. Study the hell out of the
> harmonic minor scale for this. Licks are fine, but understanding,
> realizing and finally *hearing* resonance (suggested against a pedal
> tone of a root and/or fifth as a practice at home thing) will usually
> get the biscuit.
Gerry
Jul 18, 2012, 12:19:46 PM7/18/12
to
On 2012-07-18 06:32:24 +0000, van said:
> John Gray's arrangement of Caravan was so hip, they stole it for the
> musical "SWING!". It's on the only record he made as a leader, "The New
> Wave".
DANG! I can't believe you mentioned that. I found that in a cut-out
> John Gray's arrangement of Caravan was so hip, they stole it for the
> musical "SWING!". It's on the only record he made as a leader, "The New
> Wave".
bin in 1973 or so, and though I had undoubtedly heard it before, I was
so wow'd that from that point forward it became my definitive of
Caravan.
And the first thing I thought of when the topic started. Funny.
--
Music is the best means we have of digesting time. -- W. H. Auden
Joey Goldstein
Jul 18, 2012, 2:42:05 PM7/18/12
to
On 7/17/12 6:52 PM, John Link wrote:
> A customer at a place where I play regularly has requested of me to play the tune Caravan. In that tune there is a six bar stretch of G dimished chords into two bars of F minor. Other than the G dimished scale and the G# harmonic minor scale what other ideas would work well over the G dimished? All suggestions are welcome, thanks.
>
The A sections are just V7 - Im in F minor if I recall.
> A customer at a place where I play regularly has requested of me to play the tune Caravan. In that tune there is a six bar stretch of G dimished chords into two bars of F minor. Other than the G dimished scale and the G# harmonic minor scale what other ideas would work well over the G dimished? All suggestions are welcome, thanks.
>
Start with F harm min, from C on the V7 chord.
Throw in some Eb's as well as the E naturals.
--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
<http://home.primus.ca/~joegold/AudioClips/audio.htm>
Joey Goldstein
Jul 18, 2012, 3:31:24 PM7/18/12
to
On 7/18/12 2:42 PM, Joey Goldstein wrote:
> On 7/17/12 6:52 PM, John Link wrote:
>> A customer at a place where I play regularly has requested of me to
>> play the tune Caravan. In that tune there is a six bar stretch of G
>> dimished chords into two bars of F minor. Other than the G dimished
>> scale and the G# harmonic minor scale what other ideas would work well
>> over the G dimished? All suggestions are welcome, thanks.
>>
>
> The A sections are just V7 - Im in F minor if I recall.
>
> Start with F harm min, from C on the V7 chord.
> Throw in some Eb's as well as the E naturals.
>
Also, IIRC, there is a background line on the Fm chords that involves an
> On 7/17/12 6:52 PM, John Link wrote:
>> A customer at a place where I play regularly has requested of me to
>> play the tune Caravan. In that tune there is a six bar stretch of G
>> dimished chords into two bars of F minor. Other than the G dimished
>> scale and the G# harmonic minor scale what other ideas would work well
>> over the G dimished? All suggestions are welcome, thanks.
>>
>
> The A sections are just V7 - Im in F minor if I recall.
>
> Start with F harm min, from C on the V7 chord.
> Throw in some Eb's as well as the E naturals.
>
Eb falling to D nat, which sort of implies an F dorian colour on the Fm
chords, rather than F nat min, F harm min or F mel min which would be
the other common scale choices there.
And don't let the B nat in the melody during the C7 chords bother you
too much.
It's just a chromatic passing tone between C and Bb (the root and b7 of
the chord) that happens to have G nat stuck in between the b nat and its
resolution on Bb.
There should be a name for this melodic embellishment device, but as far
as I know, there isn't one.
It's kind of like an escape note, but escape notes involve a change in
direction between the note that needs resolution and it's resolution note.
E.g. If the line was C B E Bb, then the E would be an escape note.
The original line, C B G Bb, can be seen as implying a brief G7 chord
(probably G7b9) embellishing the static C7 chord and this can lead to
soloing ideas where you play lines that outline G7b9 resolving to C7b9
within the duration of the C7 chords which, if done skillfully, can be
more interesting than just blowing on C7b9 for 6 bars.
E.g. Try soloing over these chords while the rhythm section just plays
the C7b9 chord:
C7b9 / / / | / / G7b9 / |C7b9 / / / | / / G7b9 / |
C7b9 / G7b9 / |C7b9 / / / |Fm etc.
Another chord you could use in a similar fashion that exists within the
F harm min scale, so it doesn't involve any chromaticism, is Gm7b5.
Eg. Try outlining this, while the rhythm section just stays on C7b9:
Gm7b5 / C7b9 / |Gm7b5 / C7b9 / | etc.
van
Jul 18, 2012, 4:03:28 PM7/18/12
to
On Wednesday, July 18, 2012 3:31:24 PM UTC-4, Joey Goldstein wrote:
> On 7/18/12 2:42 PM, Joey Goldstein wrote:
> > On 7/17/12 6:52 PM, John Link wrote:
> On 7/18/12 2:42 PM, Joey Goldstein wrote:
> >> A customer at a place where I play regularly has requested of me to
> >> play the tune Caravan. In that tune there is a six bar stretch of G
> >> dimished chords into two bars of F minor. Other than the G dimished
> >> scale and the G# harmonic minor scale what other ideas would work well
> >> over the G dimished? All suggestions are welcome, thanks.
> >>
> >
> > The A sections are just V7 - Im in F minor if I recall.
> >
> > Start with F harm min, from C on the V7 chord.
> > Throw in some Eb's as well as the E naturals.
> >
>
> Also, IIRC, there is a background line on the Fm chords that involves an
> Eb falling to D nat, which sort of implies an F dorian colour on the Fm
> chords, rather than F nat min, F harm min or F mel min which would be
> the other common scale choices there.
>
> And don't let the B nat in the melody during the C7 chords bother you
> Also, IIRC, there is a background line on the Fm chords that involves an
> Eb falling to D nat, which sort of implies an F dorian colour on the Fm
> chords, rather than F nat min, F harm min or F mel min which would be
> the other common scale choices there.
>
> too much.
> It's just a chromatic passing tone between C and Bb (the root and b7 of
> the chord) that happens to have G nat stuck in between the b nat and its
> resolution on Bb.
> There should be a name for this melodic embellishment device, but as far
> as I know, there isn't one.
> resolution on Bb.
> There should be a name for this melodic embellishment device, but as far
> It's kind of like an escape note, but escape notes involve a change in
> direction between the note that needs resolution and it's resolution note.
> E.g. If the line was C B E Bb, then the E would be an escape note.
>
> The original line, C B G Bb, can be seen as implying a brief G7 chord
> (probably G7b9) embellishing the static C7 chord and this can lead to
> soloing ideas where you play lines that outline G7b9 resolving to C7b9
> within the duration of the C7 chords which, if done skillfully, can be
> more interesting than just blowing on C7b9 for 6 bars.
> E.g. Try soloing over these chords while the rhythm section just plays
> the C7b9 chord:
> C7b9 / / / | / / G7b9 / |C7b9 / / / | / / G7b9 / |
>
> C7b9 / G7b9 / |C7b9 / / / |Fm etc.
>
> Another chord you could use in a similar fashion that exists within the
> F harm min scale, so it doesn't involve any chromaticism, is Gm7b5.
>
> The original line, C B G Bb, can be seen as implying a brief G7 chord
> (probably G7b9) embellishing the static C7 chord and this can lead to
> soloing ideas where you play lines that outline G7b9 resolving to C7b9
> within the duration of the C7 chords which, if done skillfully, can be
> more interesting than just blowing on C7b9 for 6 bars.
> E.g. Try soloing over these chords while the rhythm section just plays
> the C7b9 chord:
> C7b9 / / / | / / G7b9 / |C7b9 / / / | / / G7b9 / |
>
> C7b9 / G7b9 / |C7b9 / / / |Fm etc.
>
> Another chord you could use in a similar fashion that exists within the
> Eg. Try outlining this, while the rhythm section just stays on C7b9:
> Gm7b5 / C7b9 / |Gm7b5 / C7b9 / | etc.
>
> --
> Joey Goldstein
> <http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
> Gm7b5 / C7b9 / |Gm7b5 / C7b9 / | etc.
>
> --
> Joey Goldstein
> <http://home.primus.ca/~joegold/AudioClips/audio.htm>
Yeah, that melody is a weird little line. Try faking that melody at a fast tempo on a gig if you've never played the tune before. You'll fall flat on your face like I did; -)
jimmybruno
Jul 18, 2012, 4:08:21 PM7/18/12
to
van
Jul 18, 2012, 5:54:50 PM7/18/12
to
On Wednesday, July 18, 2012 4:08:21 PM UTC-4, jimmybruno wrote:
> On Jul 18, 3:31 pm, Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> > On 7/18/12 2:42 PM, Joey Goldstein wrote:
> >
> > > On 7/17/12 6:52 PM, John Link wrote:
> > >> A customer at a place where I play regularly has requested of me to
> > >> play the tune Caravan. In that tune there is a six bar stretch of G
> > >> dimished chords into two bars of F minor. Other than the G dimished
> > >> scale and the G# harmonic minor scale what other ideas would work well
> > >> over the G dimished? All suggestions are welcome, thanks.
> >
> > > The A sections are just V7 - Im in F minor if I recall.
> >
> > > Start with F harm min, from C on the V7 chord.
> > > Throw in some Eb's as well as the E naturals.
> >
> > Also, IIRC, there is a background line on the Fm chords that involves an
> > Eb falling to D nat, which sort of implies an F dorian colour on the Fm
> > chords, rather than F nat min, F harm min or F mel min which would be
> > the other common scale choices there.
> >
> > And don't let the B nat in the melody during the C7 chords bother you
> > too much.
> > It's just a chromatic passing tone between C and Bb (the root and b7 of
> > the chord) that happens to have G nat stuck in between the b nat and its
> > resolution on Bb.
> > There should be a name for this melodic embellishment device, but as far
> > as I know, there isn't one.
> > It's kind of like an escape note, but escape notes involve a change in
> > direction between the note that needs resolution and it's resolution note.
> > E.g. If the line was C B E Bb, then the E would be an escape note.
> >
> > The original line, C B G Bb, can be seen as implying a brief G7 chord
> > (probably G7b9) embellishing the static C7 chord and this can lead to
> > soloing ideas where you play lines that outline G7b9 resolving to C7b9
> > within the duration of the C7 chords which, if done skillfully, can be
> > more interesting than just blowing on C7b9 for 6 bars.
> > E.g. Try soloing over these chords while the rhythm section just plays
> > the C7b9 chord:
> > C7b9 / / / | / / G7b9 / |C7b9 / / / | / / G7b9 / |
> >
> > C7b9 / G7b9 / |C7b9 / / / |Fm etc.
> >
> > Another chord you could use in a similar fashion that exists within the
> > F harm min scale, so it doesn't involve any chromaticism, is Gm7b5.
> > Eg. Try outlining this, while the rhythm section just stays on C7b9:
> > Gm7b5 / C7b9 / |Gm7b5 / C7b9 / | etc.
> >
> > --
> > Joey Goldstein
> > <http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
> > <http://home.primus.ca/~joegold/AudioClips/audio.htm>
>
> Don't think there is a B nat in the melody during the C7. It's a Bb
Like I was saying, it's a weird little melody. On the on the 7th bar, when the melody is still on C7, the melody notes are C, Db, C, Db, B natural, G, Bb.
Then it uses a B natural again, but this time just in a chromatic scale down to F, where it finally resolves to Fm.
> On Jul 18, 3:31 pm, Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> > On 7/18/12 2:42 PM, Joey Goldstein wrote:
> >
> > > On 7/17/12 6:52 PM, John Link wrote:
> > >> A customer at a place where I play regularly has requested of me to
> > >> play the tune Caravan. In that tune there is a six bar stretch of G
> > >> dimished chords into two bars of F minor. Other than the G dimished
> > >> scale and the G# harmonic minor scale what other ideas would work well
> > >> over the G dimished? All suggestions are welcome, thanks.
> >
> > > The A sections are just V7 - Im in F minor if I recall.
> >
> > > Start with F harm min, from C on the V7 chord.
> > > Throw in some Eb's as well as the E naturals.
> >
> > Also, IIRC, there is a background line on the Fm chords that involves an
> > Eb falling to D nat, which sort of implies an F dorian colour on the Fm
> > chords, rather than F nat min, F harm min or F mel min which would be
> > the other common scale choices there.
> >
> > And don't let the B nat in the melody during the C7 chords bother you
> > too much.
> > It's just a chromatic passing tone between C and Bb (the root and b7 of
> > the chord) that happens to have G nat stuck in between the b nat and its
> > resolution on Bb.
> > There should be a name for this melodic embellishment device, but as far
> > as I know, there isn't one.
> > It's kind of like an escape note, but escape notes involve a change in
> > direction between the note that needs resolution and it's resolution note.
> > E.g. If the line was C B E Bb, then the E would be an escape note.
> >
> > The original line, C B G Bb, can be seen as implying a brief G7 chord
> > (probably G7b9) embellishing the static C7 chord and this can lead to
> > soloing ideas where you play lines that outline G7b9 resolving to C7b9
> > within the duration of the C7 chords which, if done skillfully, can be
> > more interesting than just blowing on C7b9 for 6 bars.
> > E.g. Try soloing over these chords while the rhythm section just plays
> > the C7b9 chord:
> > C7b9 / / / | / / G7b9 / |C7b9 / / / | / / G7b9 / |
> >
> > C7b9 / G7b9 / |C7b9 / / / |Fm etc.
> >
> > Another chord you could use in a similar fashion that exists within the
> > F harm min scale, so it doesn't involve any chromaticism, is Gm7b5.
> > Eg. Try outlining this, while the rhythm section just stays on C7b9:
> > Gm7b5 / C7b9 / |Gm7b5 / C7b9 / | etc.
> >
> > --
> > Joey Goldstein
> > <http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
> > <http://home.primus.ca/~joegold/AudioClips/audio.htm>
>
> Don't think there is a B nat in the melody during the C7. It's a Bb
Like I was saying, it's a weird little melody. On the on the 7th bar, when the melody is still on C7, the melody notes are C, Db, C, Db, B natural, G, Bb.
Then it uses a B natural again, but this time just in a chromatic scale down to F, where it finally resolves to Fm.
TD
Jul 18, 2012, 5:58:03 PM7/18/12
to
type change. The idea was to characterize the Harmonic minor flavor
*(aug 2nd movement) which is prevailing until the bridge. Also, Db13
( like G7#9 too, but the *half step* comping or even implying makes
that harmonic minor factor come alive) contains both semitones spread
apart from each other. During improvising, players can utilize the
chromatic scale to produce approach notes of choice during the F
minor, as the rest of the tune. Sure, anyone can think V7 to I minor,
but this tune has an exotic characteristic, so more often than not the
Harmonic minor scale is the favorable underpinning. Unless, a player
decides to break away from that.
-TD
Joey Goldstein
Jul 18, 2012, 6:32:06 PM7/18/12
to
On 7/18/12 4:08 PM, jimmybruno wrote:
>
> Don't think there is a B nat in the melody during the C7. It's a Bb
You're wrong.
>
> Don't think there is a B nat in the melody during the C7. It's a Bb
Unless every recording I've ever heard of this tune as well as every
lead sheet I've ever seen for it is wrong, in which case maybe you are
right.
Or maybe there's a parallel universe somewhere where you're right.
lol
<http://home.primus.ca/~joegold/Caravan.pdf>
thomas
Jul 18, 2012, 6:37:51 PM7/18/12
to
On Wednesday, July 18, 2012 11:48:46 AM UTC-4, TD wrote:
> On Jul 18, 8:22 am, TD <tonydecap...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 18, 2:32 am, van <sg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Tuesday, July 17, 2012 6:52:09 PM UTC-4, John Link wrote:
> > > > A customer at a place where I play regularly has requested of me to play the tune Caravan. In that tune there is a six bar stretch of G dimished chords into two bars of F minor. Other than the G dimished scale and the G# harmonic minor scale what other ideas would work well over the G dimished? All suggestions are welcome, thanks.
> >
> > > I don't see where a G# Harmonic Minor scale with a B Natural would work against a G diminished 7th/C7b9 chord.
> > > I think you meant a C# Melodic Minor scale.
> > > Like TB said, any C7 altered scale ideas would work, if you resolve it to Fm at the right time.
> > > John Gray's arrangement of Caravan was so hip, they stole it for the musical "SWING!". It's on the only record he made as a leader, "The New Wave".
> > > Whenever we play the big band chart on Caravan in this one band I play in, I always yell out, "Play Caravan with a drum solo!", a Zappa quote. Everybody looks at me like I'm nuts.
> >
> > Hey! What about them knishes?
> F, or 3rd of the oft used "mechanism" chord: Db7 used to exploit the
> "exoticness" of the aug. 2nd, makes a 'shoe in' of a voice lead to
> that E note ( it's root is also a semitone away from the D in F-6)
> On Jul 18, 8:22 am, TD <tonydecap...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 18, 2:32 am, van <sg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Tuesday, July 17, 2012 6:52:09 PM UTC-4, John Link wrote:
> > > > A customer at a place where I play regularly has requested of me to play the tune Caravan. In that tune there is a six bar stretch of G dimished chords into two bars of F minor. Other than the G dimished scale and the G# harmonic minor scale what other ideas would work well over the G dimished? All suggestions are welcome, thanks.
> >
> > > I don't see where a G# Harmonic Minor scale with a B Natural would work against a G diminished 7th/C7b9 chord.
> > > I think you meant a C# Melodic Minor scale.
> > > Like TB said, any C7 altered scale ideas would work, if you resolve it to Fm at the right time.
> > > John Gray's arrangement of Caravan was so hip, they stole it for the musical "SWING!". It's on the only record he made as a leader, "The New Wave".
> > > Whenever we play the big band chart on Caravan in this one band I play in, I always yell out, "Play Caravan with a drum solo!", a Zappa quote. Everybody looks at me like I'm nuts.
> >
> > Hey! What about them knishes?
>
> OK, then perhaps I can spell it out for you concerning my humor
> incited by the OP's bastardized spelling of diminished (intentional or
> OK, then perhaps I can spell it out for you concerning my humor
> not). A lot can be learned from studying the Jewish folk song: Hava
> Nagilah. Since Caravan is terribly Harmonic minor driven, the
> "Phrygian" inclination of the C7alt. is more than an inclination. The
> Nagilah. Since Caravan is terribly Harmonic minor driven, the
> V7 type chord in Fharm minor produces that hava nagilah sound due to
> the b9 and b13 present in the voicing (Usually C7b9/11/b13) These
> intervals coincide with b6 and b3 of Fharm minor scale. The Db7
> change, which is often utilized as ancillary to C7 takes advantage of
> the inherent exotic "caravanny" quality of the augmented 2nd. E note
> the b9 and b13 present in the voicing (Usually C7b9/11/b13) These
> intervals coincide with b6 and b3 of Fharm minor scale. The Db7
> change, which is often utilized as ancillary to C7 takes advantage of
> stays fixed if F-maj7 is utilized as the I minor ( although most guys
> use F-6 as the iminor, thus borrowing from melodic minor scale
> harmony, it is merely an alternate voicing of i minor large) and that
> E note is an integral common tone with the V7 chord (it's 3rd), so the
> use F-6 as the iminor, thus borrowing from melodic minor scale
> harmony, it is merely an alternate voicing of i minor large) and that
> F, or 3rd of the oft used "mechanism" chord: Db7 used to exploit the
> "exoticness" of the aug. 2nd, makes a 'shoe in' of a voice lead to
> that E note ( it's root is also a semitone away from the D in F-6)
> common to the Imin large and the alt V7. Study the hell out of the
> harmonic minor scale for this. Licks are fine, but understanding,
> realizing and finally *hearing* resonance (suggested against a pedal
> tone of a root and/or fifth as a practice at home thing) will usually
> get the biscuit.
>
> -TD
There's your first-class free lesson, OP. Isn't the internet wonderful?
> harmonic minor scale for this. Licks are fine, but understanding,
> realizing and finally *hearing* resonance (suggested against a pedal
> tone of a root and/or fifth as a practice at home thing) will usually
> get the biscuit.
>
> -TD
TD
Jul 18, 2012, 6:57:35 PM7/18/12
to
On Jul 18, 5:54 pm, van <sg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 18, 2012 4:08:21 PM UTC-4, jimmybruno wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 18, 2012 4:08:21 PM UTC-4, jimmybruno wrote:
> > On Jul 18, 3:31 pm, Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> > > On 7/18/12 2:42 PM, Joey Goldstein wrote:
>
> > > > On 7/17/12 6:52 PM, John Link wrote:
> > > >> A customer at a place where I play regularly has requested of me to
> > > On 7/18/12 2:42 PM, Joey Goldstein wrote:
>
> > > > On 7/17/12 6:52 PM, John Link wrote:
> > > >> A customer at a place where I play regularly has requested of me to
> > > >> play the tune Caravan. In that tune there is a six bar stretch of G
> > > >> dimished chords into two bars of F minor. Other than the G dimished
> > > >> scale and the G# harmonic minor scale what other ideas would work well
> > > >> over the G dimished? All suggestions are welcome, thanks.
>
>
> > > > The A sections are just V7 - Im in F minor if I recall.
>
>
> > > > Start with F harm min, from C on the V7 chord.
> > > > Throw in some Eb's as well as the E naturals.
>
> > > Also, IIRC, there is a background line on the Fm chords that involves an
> > > Also, IIRC, there is a background line on the Fm chords that involves an
> > > Eb falling to D nat, which sort of implies an F dorian colour on the Fm
> > > chords, rather than F nat min, F harm min or F mel min which would be
> > > the other common scale choices there.
>
> > > And don't let the B nat in the melody during the C7 chords bother you
>
> > > too much.
> > > It's just a chromatic passing tone between C and Bb (the root and b7 of
> > > the chord) that happens to have G nat stuck in between the b nat and its
> > > resolution on Bb.
> > > There should be a name for this melodic embellishment device, but as far
> > > as I know, there isn't one.
> > > It's kind of like an escape note, but escape notes involve a change in
> > > direction between the note that needs resolution and it's resolution note.
> > > E.g. If the line was C B E Bb, then the E would be an escape note.
>
>
> > > The original line, C B G Bb, can be seen as implying a brief G7 chord
> > > (probably G7b9) embellishing the static C7 chord and this can lead to
> > > soloing ideas where you play lines that outline G7b9 resolving to C7b9
> > > within the duration of the C7 chords which, if done skillfully, can be
> > > more interesting than just blowing on C7b9 for 6 bars.
> > > E.g. Try soloing over these chords while the rhythm section just plays
> > > the C7b9 chord:
> > > C7b9 / / / | / / G7b9 / |C7b9 / / / | / / G7b9 / |
>
>
> > > C7b9 / G7b9 / |C7b9 / / / |Fm etc.
>
>
> > > Another chord you could use in a similar fashion that exists within the
> > > F harm min scale, so it doesn't involve any chromaticism, is Gm7b5.
> > > Eg. Try outlining this, while the rhythm section just stays on C7b9:
> > > Gm7b5 / C7b9 / |Gm7b5 / C7b9 / | etc.
>
>
> > > --
> > > Joey Goldstein
> > > <http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
> > > <http://home.primus.ca/~joegold/AudioClips/audio.htm>
>
> > Don't think there is a B nat in the melody during the C7. It's a Bb
> > > Joey Goldstein
> > > <http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
> > > <http://home.primus.ca/~joegold/AudioClips/audio.htm>
>
>
> Like I was saying, it's a weird little melody. On the on the 7th bar, when the melody is still on C7, the melody notes are C, Db, C, Db, B natural, G, Bb.
> Then it uses a B natural again, but this time just in a chromatic scale down to F, where it finally resolves to Fm.
Just like the P4 and the Raised 4th can often coexist when one is
> Like I was saying, it's a weird little melody. On the on the 7th bar, when the melody is still on C7, the melody notes are C, Db, C, Db, B natural, G, Bb.
> Then it uses a B natural again, but this time just in a chromatic scale down to F, where it finally resolves to Fm.
apparent and the other is merely "understood", so be it with the
Harmonic minor scale with an altered 4th ( the damn "B" note justified
within a slightly tweeked harmonic minor backdrop, from yet another
point of view), which translates to F Hungarian Minor: F G Ab B C Db
E (F). Perhaps, Ole' Duke had that scale in mind while passing
through a few Hungarian Gypsy camp grounds. Put the two together and
maybe some one, some where, can will call it 'Hungarian Gypsy Blues
Scale': F G Ab Bb Cb Db E (F). When it comes to East meets West,
hybrid scales are nothing new.
-TD
TD
Jul 18, 2012, 7:03:14 PM7/18/12
to
Bill Williams
Jul 19, 2012, 5:10:32 AM7/19/12
to
> Or are standing on a bridge
... no harmonic minor when soloing on the bridge - got to be dominant.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GR5yi9b3eY
one of their best ever - thanks!
BW
thomas
Jul 19, 2012, 10:53:10 AM7/19/12
to
On Wednesday, July 18, 2012 6:57:35 PM UTC-4, TD wrote:
> Perhaps, Ole' Duke had that scale in mind while passing
> Perhaps, Ole' Duke had that scale in mind while passing
> through a few Hungarian Gypsy camp grounds.
Juan Tizol wrote Caravan.
TD
Jul 19, 2012, 11:36:19 AM7/19/12
to
to Juan.
jimmybruno
Jul 19, 2012, 11:50:16 AM7/19/12
to
Librarian
Jul 19, 2012, 1:41:22 PM7/19/12
to
In article
<9e9d606e-f1fa-4e53...@j9g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>, TD
"[Irving] Mills was not a composer, but his contract with Ellington was
a very favorable one; he owned 50% in Duke Ellington Inc. and thus got
his name tag on quite a number of tunes that became popular standards."
--
So would it kill you to read a book from time to time?
<9e9d606e-f1fa-4e53...@j9g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>, TD
<tonyde...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Juan Tizol wrote Caravan.
>
> Along with Ellington and Mills. Unless, you prefer only to give credit
> to Juan.
From Wikipedia:
> > Juan Tizol wrote Caravan.
>
> Along with Ellington and Mills. Unless, you prefer only to give credit
> to Juan.
"[Irving] Mills was not a composer, but his contract with Ellington was
a very favorable one; he owned 50% in Duke Ellington Inc. and thus got
his name tag on quite a number of tunes that became popular standards."
--
So would it kill you to read a book from time to time?
TD
Jul 19, 2012, 2:09:31 PM7/19/12
to
On Jul 19, 1:41 pm, Librarian <nothank...@pass.com> wrote:
> In article
> <9e9d606e-f1fa-4e53-a3a3-faf44ba55...@j9g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>, TD
for the A section?
-TD
> In article
> <9e9d606e-f1fa-4e53-a3a3-faf44ba55...@j9g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>, TD
>
> <tonydecap...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Juan Tizol wrote Caravan.
>
> > Along with Ellington and Mills. Unless, you prefer only to give credit
> > to Juan.
>
> From Wikipedia:
>
> "[Irving] Mills was not a composer, but his contract with Ellington was
> a very favorable one; he owned 50% in Duke Ellington Inc. and thus got
> his name tag on quite a number of tunes that became popular standards."
>
> --
> So would it kill you to read a book from time to time?
You guys love a tangent. Wonderful. So, what's your take on the blowin
> <tonydecap...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Juan Tizol wrote Caravan.
>
> > Along with Ellington and Mills. Unless, you prefer only to give credit
> > to Juan.
>
> From Wikipedia:
>
> "[Irving] Mills was not a composer, but his contract with Ellington was
> a very favorable one; he owned 50% in Duke Ellington Inc. and thus got
> his name tag on quite a number of tunes that became popular standards."
>
> --
> So would it kill you to read a book from time to time?
for the A section?
-TD
Greger Hoel
Jul 19, 2012, 2:33:13 PM7/19/12
to
On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 19:41:22 +0200, Librarian <notha...@pass.com> wrote:
> In article
> <9e9d606e-f1fa-4e53...@j9g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>, TD
> <tonyde...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > Juan Tizol wrote Caravan.
>>
>> Along with Ellington and Mills. Unless, you prefer only to give credit
>> to Juan.
>
> From Wikipedia:
>
> "[Irving] Mills was not a composer, but his contract with Ellington was
> a very favorable one; he owned 50% in Duke Ellington Inc. and thus got
> his name tag on quite a number of tunes that became popular standards."
Sounds like he's Heather Mills' grandpa.
> In article
> <9e9d606e-f1fa-4e53...@j9g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>, TD
> <tonyde...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > Juan Tizol wrote Caravan.
>>
>> Along with Ellington and Mills. Unless, you prefer only to give credit
>> to Juan.
>
> From Wikipedia:
>
> "[Irving] Mills was not a composer, but his contract with Ellington was
> a very favorable one; he owned 50% in Duke Ellington Inc. and thus got
> his name tag on quite a number of tunes that became popular standards."
TD
Jul 19, 2012, 3:27:05 PM7/19/12
to
On Jul 19, 2:33 pm, "Greger Hoel" <nob...@home.fu> wrote:
"Much has been made about Mills' co-writing credit on a number of key
Ellington compositions. The fact remains that those acts managed by
Irving Mills got the best gigs and had the greatest opportunities in
the recording studio. There were dozens of excellent bands of the era
not handled by Mills whose recorded legacy is a fraction of those he
managed.
Irving lived to be over 91 years old. In spite of his limited formal
education Irving Mills was comfortable in any company. His place in
the history of jazz is founded primarily on his business skills rather
than his singing and songwriting abilities, but it was his management
skills and publishing empire that were central to the history and
financial success of jazz. Because of his promotion of black
entertainers a leading black newspaper referred to him as the Abraham
Lincoln of music."
Wrong or right, under the circumstances back in that time frame of
history with all of it's flaws, I would gladly have also given him
50%.
Now, back to the music...
> On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 19:41:22 +0200, Librarian <nothank...@pass.com> wrote:
> > In article
> > <9e9d606e-f1fa-4e53-a3a3-faf44ba55...@j9g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>, TD
> > In article
> > <9e9d606e-f1fa-4e53-a3a3-faf44ba55...@j9g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>, TD
> > <tonydecap...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> > Juan Tizol wrote Caravan.
>
> >> Along with Ellington and Mills. Unless, you prefer only to give credit
> >> to Juan.
>
> > From Wikipedia:
>
> > "[Irving] Mills was not a composer, but his contract with Ellington was
> > a very favorable one; he owned 50% in Duke Ellington Inc. and thus got
> > his name tag on quite a number of tunes that became popular standards."
>
> Sounds like he's Heather Mills' grandpa.
>
> --
> Using Opera's revolutionary email client:http://www.opera.com/mail/
More of the story also from Wikipdedia:
>
> >> > Juan Tizol wrote Caravan.
>
> >> Along with Ellington and Mills. Unless, you prefer only to give credit
> >> to Juan.
>
> > From Wikipedia:
>
> > "[Irving] Mills was not a composer, but his contract with Ellington was
> > a very favorable one; he owned 50% in Duke Ellington Inc. and thus got
> > his name tag on quite a number of tunes that became popular standards."
>
> Sounds like he's Heather Mills' grandpa.
>
> --
> Using Opera's revolutionary email client:http://www.opera.com/mail/
"Much has been made about Mills' co-writing credit on a number of key
Ellington compositions. The fact remains that those acts managed by
Irving Mills got the best gigs and had the greatest opportunities in
the recording studio. There were dozens of excellent bands of the era
not handled by Mills whose recorded legacy is a fraction of those he
managed.
Irving lived to be over 91 years old. In spite of his limited formal
education Irving Mills was comfortable in any company. His place in
the history of jazz is founded primarily on his business skills rather
than his singing and songwriting abilities, but it was his management
skills and publishing empire that were central to the history and
financial success of jazz. Because of his promotion of black
entertainers a leading black newspaper referred to him as the Abraham
Lincoln of music."
Wrong or right, under the circumstances back in that time frame of
history with all of it's flaws, I would gladly have also given him
50%.
Now, back to the music...
thomas
Jul 19, 2012, 3:29:01 PM7/19/12
to
On Thursday, July 19, 2012 2:33:13 PM UTC-4, Greger Hoel wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 19:41:22 +0200, Librarian <notha...@pass.com> wrote:
>
> > In article
> > <9e9d606e-f1fa-4e53...@j9g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>, TD
> > <tonyde...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> > Juan Tizol wrote Caravan.
> >>
> >> Along with Ellington and Mills. Unless, you prefer only to give credit
> >> to Juan.
> >
> > From Wikipedia:
> >
> > "[Irving] Mills was not a composer, but his contract with Ellington was
> > a very favorable one; he owned 50% in Duke Ellington Inc. and thus got
> > his name tag on quite a number of tunes that became popular standards."
> On Thu, 19 Jul 2012 19:41:22 +0200, Librarian <notha...@pass.com> wrote:
>
> > In article
> > <9e9d606e-f1fa-4e53...@j9g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>, TD
> > <tonyde...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> > Juan Tizol wrote Caravan.
> >>
> >> Along with Ellington and Mills. Unless, you prefer only to give credit
> >> to Juan.
> >
> > From Wikipedia:
> >
> > "[Irving] Mills was not a composer, but his contract with Ellington was
> > a very favorable one; he owned 50% in Duke Ellington Inc. and thus got
> > his name tag on quite a number of tunes that became popular standards."
>
> Sounds like he's Heather Mills' grandpa.
She's not sure about it, but she's leaning in that direction.
> Sounds like he's Heather Mills' grandpa.
matelo...@gmail.com
Jul 19, 2012, 6:09:19 PM7/19/12
to
0 new messages