What is 'Groove'?
Simon Zagorski-Thomas
I'm doing some research for a conference paper in April 04 on the
psychology of getting into a groove. If any of you are interested /
prepared to fill out a short questionnaire on the subject could you
email me and I'll send a copy back to you.
I'm a composer / producer / sound engineer who now lectures at the
London College of Music & Media in the U.K. This research is related
both to my teaching of Popular Music, Jazz and World music and to my
PhD thesis in composition.
Thanks for your help and interest.
Simon Zagorski-Thomas
JC
which I will derive my conclusion from:
http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=groove&x=9&y=16
Main Entry: 1groove
Pronunciation: 'grüv
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English groof; akin to Old English grafan to dig -- more
at GRAVE
1 : a long narrow channel or depression
2 a : a fixed routine : RUT b : a situation suited to one's abilities or
interests : NICHE
3 : top form <a great talker when he is in the groove>
4 : the middle of the strike zone in baseball where a pitch is most easily
hit <a fastball right in the groove>
5 : an enjoyable or exciting experience
6 : a pronounced enjoyable rhythm
From this I would conclude that "Groove" is music played in top form that
has an enjoyable rhythm.
"Simon Zagorski-Thomas" <sim...@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:82d720dd.04030...@posting.google.com...
Les Cargill
Groove is note placement within the bar of different instruments
in an ensemble. Different people play slightly
pushed or slacked with respect to the beat.
--
Les Cargill
Al Stevens
Al Stevens
http://www.alstevens.com
"Simon Zagorski-Thomas" <sim...@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:82d720dd.04030...@posting.google.com...
JC
"Groove is note placement within the bar of different instruments in an
ensemble. Different people play slightly
pushed or slacked with respect to the beat"
I thought groove was more of a feeling, and cannot be defined specifically
as note placement, notation or voicing
Any thoughts?
"Les Cargill" <lcar...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:404A0710...@worldnet.att.net...
Joey Goldstein
played in a single tempo.
The term is most applicable to American popular music that is intended
to be danced to. As such it usually involves some sort of a repetitive
rhythmic figure or pattern. Satisfactory rhythmic patterns for a groove
usually have a hypnotic effect, somewhat like the effect of a mantra in
meditative practices. This gives the listener a solid rhythmic base in
which they can always find the pulse and allows for more complex musical
elements to be layered on top of the groove without the music losing coherency.
--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
paul asbell
JC wrote:
>Les Wrote:
>"Groove is note placement within the bar of different instruments in an
>ensemble. Different people play slightly
>pushed or slacked with respect to the beat"
>
>I thought groove was more of a feeling, and cannot be defined specifically
>as note placement, notation or voicing
>
>Any thoughts?
>
>
>
It's extremely enlightening to spend some time sequencing rhythms and
sounds- if only because you begin to determine how much of what we call
"feel", or "groove", or whatever, is numerical in nature.
You take a snare drum part and move it forward in time a few
milliseconds, and it starts sounding like the drummer just drank a cup
of coffee before doing the take. A few ticks behind, and it sounds like
he relaxed and talks w/ a slow drawl, etc.
You start fooling w/ the velocities, or strengths of the strikes, of a
hi-hat part, accenting some hits and quietening others, and all of a
sudden a part that sounded stiff and mechanical starts sounding "human",
and full of groove. It's odd... and totally an illusion, of course.
This doesn't mean that EVERYTHING about groove is numerical, or
quantifiable... but a LOT of it is- more than most of us would guess.
Paul
Paul Asbell
pas...@paulasbell.com
www.paulasbell.com
Azhosers
GROOVE?????
A couple of things come to mind. I get into a GROOVE when I play Rare
Earths tune GET READY--its over 21 min long and you set up this solid
rock beat thru the tune. I lock into it.
Another tune that I think of as a GROOVE is Allman Brothers band tunes
In Memory of Elizabeth Reed and Jessica. Both of these are real long
jams with a repititious beat that you lock into.
If you do Swiss Triplets for a long time, you can also set up a GROOVE
with them.
http://hometown.aol.com/ddsdhosers/DDSD.html
DDSD
Les Cargill
>
> Les Wrote:
> "Groove is note placement within the bar of different instruments in an
> ensemble. Different people play slightly
> pushed or slacked with respect to the beat"
>
> I thought groove was more of a feeling, and cannot be defined specifically
> as note placement, notation or voicing
>
> Any thoughts?
>
I think it's more abut note placement than anything else.
> "Les Cargill" <lcar...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:404A0710...@worldnet.att.net...
> Simon Zagorski-Thomas wrote:
> >
> > Hi all
> >
> > I'm doing some research for a conference paper in April 04 on the
> > psychology of getting into a groove. If any of you are interested /
> > prepared to fill out a short questionnaire on the subject could you
> > email me and I'll send a copy back to you.
> >
> > I'm a composer / producer / sound engineer who now lectures at the
> > London College of Music & Media in the U.K. This research is related
> > both to my teaching of Popular Music, Jazz and World music and to my
> > PhD thesis in composition.
> >
> > Thanks for your help and interest.
> > Simon Zagorski-Thomas
>
> Groove is note placement within the bar of different instruments
> in an ensemble. Different people play slightly
> pushed or slacked with respect to the beat.
>
> --
> Les Cargill
--
Les Cargill
JC
humor.........
"JC" <J...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:LdWdnWdxf8O...@adelphia.com...
JC
"I think it's more about note placement than anything else."
I can see your point in regards to note placement on an analytical level.
But from my experience playing live, a groove and we might be splitting
hairs, but when it all clicks with everybody's playing in the pocket,
there's nothing like it. I interpret that at "The Groove" - is music played
in top form that has an enjoyable rhythm.
To me it's more than note placement - one's and zero's in binary. It's a
feeling.
Take Care;
Jim
"Les Cargill" <lcar...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:404A2DC8...@worldnet.att.net...
Doug Fuller
>
> Les Wrote:
> "I think it's more about note placement than anything else."
>
> I can see your point in regards to note placement on an analytical level.
> But from my experience playing live, a groove and we might be splitting
> hairs, but when it all clicks with everybody's playing in the pocket,
> there's nothing like it. I interpret that at "The Groove" - is music
played
> in top form that has an enjoyable rhythm.
>
> To me it's more than note placement - one's and zero's in binary. It's a
> feeling.
And Les is explaining that what you're feeling is the note placement. Paul
Asbell went on to describe that when a particular feel is analyzed, it
really is numerically based (translation: note placement). The result of
all this is what you're saying -- it's enjoyable -- and that doesn't
preclude the notion that it's explicable mathematically.
If you've studied any music theory (disclaimer: I've studied just a smidgen
of music theory, and that was waaaay back in high school, longer ago than I
care to admit) you'll realize just how mathematical music is. A note
(frequency) is mathematical, harmonies are mathematical, melodies are
mathematical and perhaps the most mathematical of all is the rhythm. Given
that, it's no surprise that everything about a rhythm, including note
placement down to the millisecond, is quantifiable.
Add it all up and you have groove.
A musician, let's say a drummer for the sake of argument, can know nothing
about any of this [mathematical theory] but can ooze groove -- this doesn't
disprove the theory but if her/his playing was analyzed I'd bet you'd find
that the note placement is just where it's supposed to be.
--
Cheers,
Doug Fuller
Boston
"It's all in the mama-daddies."
paul asbell
Doug Fuller wrote:
Nicely put, Doug!
All I would add is that, like everything in life, there DOES seem to be
more than a bit of voodoo, or "x-factor", or "feeling", "vibe",
whatever-ya-wanna-call-it in all of this stuff as well.... and that's
probably what JC means by "feeling".
But Les', Doug's, and my point is that it's often surprising to people
how much of what we think of as 'feeling" in music is actually
defineable, quantifiable, manipulatable, etc.... even if, as Doug points
out, some of the most wicked groovers in the biz don't think about this
stuff at all.
Aaron Kumove
mark, but here goes anyway . . .
I think that this is a lot more than just about note placement. It's
also about accents, volume, timbre, attack, decay, noise factors
inherent in instruments and all kinds of other musical things which are
a lot harder and more complex to quantify and define mathematically.
Anything can be defined mathematically, but I don't think we have really
figured out how to define many of those other things mathematically
beyond note placement which is relatively easy.
e.g. if you listen to a good jazz drummer's ride cymbal it's about note
placement, sure. But the skip beat on the 8th after 2 and 4 is played
off a bounce of the stick from beats 2 and 4. The bounce has a very
different sound to the notes played on 2 and 4 which are not played off
a bounce. There's more going on there than just note placement . . .
What about good rhythm guitar players . . . upstrokes, downstrokes,
string damping, duration, hammers etc. all contribute to the groove.
Again more than just note placement . . .
Horn players . . . tongued vs. slurred notes has got a lot to do with
it, etc . . .
The hard part of defining this is knowing what the factors are that make
it up, and I don't think anyone has completely figured that out from an
analytical level. At an intuitive level it's obviously a different
story as so many great players have proven.
Aaron
Les Cargill
>
> Les Wrote:
> "I think it's more about note placement than anything else."
>
> I can see your point in regards to note placement on an analytical level.
> But from my experience playing live, a groove and we might be splitting
> hairs, but when it all clicks with everybody's playing in the pocket,
> there's nothing like it. I interpret that at "The Groove" - is music played
> in top form that has an enjoyable rhythm.
>
> To me it's more than note placement - one's and zero's in binary. It's a
> feeling.
>
On one level, where you're enjoying the performance, sure. That's being
kind of organic and holistic about it.
But if you are trying to acheive that as a result, knowing that
changing note placement will change the groove is more useful. And
it's not *just* note placement - it's envelope, attack,
lots of other things.
But the knob to tweak first is note placement.
--
Les Cargill
Sean Conolly
news:VKq2c.90$%q3...@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> A musician, let's say a drummer for the sake of argument, can know nothing
> about any of this [mathematical theory] but can ooze groove -- this
doesn't
> disprove the theory but if her/his playing was analyzed I'd bet you'd find
> that the note placement is just where it's supposed to be.
I think we should ask Yanni...
<DUCK!>
Steve White
To me a groove is that feeling I get when I know the whole band are locked
in and playing as a unit. I get the feeling that the song now has a momentum
of its own, that nothing I could do would deflect the groove. It happens
when the playing of every single person fits together perfectly and the
whole flow of the piece feels like it has a really strong flow to it.
For a drummer that's all about phrasing ... which is to say that most of it
is about placement of notes ... but the placement of emphasis and the use of
different tones is also very important. For a bass player I'd contend that
the groove is as much about the spaces between the notes ... by which I mean
the points at which the strings are stopped to leave the gaps, as it is
about the striking of the notes ... although obviously the choice of notes
and the other elements of phrasing is important too.
There is no doubt in my mind that what's happening can be studied
scientifically and that this would help us understand at least some of its
nature. Its too easy for it to be dissmissed as simply something that could
never be analysed. However, it didn't start with mathematics, it started
with feel, so it would be folly to presume that maths or science alone could
completely characterise it.
Cheers,
Steve W
Tony Done
Tony D
"Al Stevens" <nob...@home.com> wrote in message
news:uzo2c.200111$jH.20...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
Matt
choice of sound sources influences the groove. The ebb and flow of all
these factors throughout a piece of music is mathematically quantifiable
afterwards, but nearly impossible to predict ahead of time. With the advent
of click tracks and ProTools, the ebb and flow of time and dynamics is
"ironed out" often to the detriment of the groove. One can go to the other
extreme, however, and ebb and flow right out of the groove. Some people
seem to develop the ability to determine all this on whatever level more
naturally than others. Many people can learn and develop the skill. Still
others just never get it. Who knows why?
Matt Porter
"Aaron Kumove" <tri...@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:jvr2c.34424$ws.34...@news02.tsnz.net...
Bob Robinson
I like your definition. "The Groove" exists when NO PLAYER in the band can
"knock it out" of groove. Everyone is so locked into the "right" parts. It
doesn't happen often, but when it does for me, it's like I'm just sittin'
back listening to a really tight band--I just have some drumsticks in my
hand, and they seem to just be on autopilot. Sometimes, I start thinking
that maybe I need to screw up something a little just to make sure I'm
really there playing live, but I find that I CAN'T--"The Groove"'s got us!
I would bet it is NOT truely mathematical. A "Groove" is NOT a drum machine
or metronome--that would define MECHANICAL, not GROOVY(!) Something in our
human perception is keyed in very observantly to spot the truly mechancial
and identifiy it as "non-human", so that couldn't be the definition of a
Groove.
I think the groove would be analyzed as "bad tempo" (mathematically),
because it would drift and surge at exactly the right spots, in exact
synchronization with what others in the band are doing at the same time, but
would fail when held against a strict mathematical measure of time and
tempo.
Contrast that with individual band members who "slide" around with tempo,
but are obvious because they are not synchronized with the other players.
Those 'obvious' deviations are NOT groovy, they're mistakes, or inattention,
or frustration, or distraction---none of these words would be used when
you're "in the Groove!"
-=\ Bob \=-
Steve White wrote in message <2Wr2c.16300$h44.1...@stones.force9.net>...
Boom
sucking all the groove out of it!
Here's the TRUE definition of "groove": (note the colon outside of the
quotes) ;)
When you play a song and you're hittin' the bassline, and you look at
the drummer and he looks at you and you both just know you can't do no
wrong, and the other guys in the band feel it so much they can't help
but lay down the perfect parts to build on it, and the guys in the
band ain't thinking of anything except how much poontang this badass
music is going to get them later, and the singer turns around and
looks at the musicians and makes a face like he smells something weird
and starts shakin' it...fuck that note placement analytical bullshit,
fuck that definition in the dictionary...that's groove. Accept no
substitutes.
Boom
JD
news:m24l40tqrrtei19gm...@4ax.com
> Geez, you guys are getting so analytical over groove that you're
> sucking all the groove out of it!
Indeed. For those who know, no explanation is neccesary; for those who
don't, no explanation is possible.
JD
foldedpath
@nwrddc02.gnilink.net:
My right brain agrees with you, totally.
My left brain says...
Load any hot, tight band into a waveform editor. Then shift the drummer's
kick drum 20 millisconds early or late... and you can demonstrate how to
deconstruct the concept of "groove" by analytical methods.
I'm on the fence here.
I KNOW what groove is, when I'm playing in a band.
I also know how you can mess with this stuff, by moving the timelines
around.
--
Mike Barrs
JC
audience gets into it.
Breaking down "Groove" into mathamatical equations, destroys it. It's
somthing that you don't think about when your playing, you just know it's
there and your in it.
Jim a.k.a. JC
"JD" <jdb502...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8Jw2c.68678$6K.3...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
JC
"I think we should ask Yanni... <DUCK!>"
Good one....lol
"Sean Conolly" <sjcono...@yaaho.com> wrote in message
news:mMr2c.31670$rB4....@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
JC
"On one level, where you're enjoying the performance, sure. That's being
kind of organic and holistic about it.
But if you are trying to acheive that as a result, knowing that
changing note placement will change the groove is more useful. And
it's not *just* note placement - it's envelope, attack,
lots of other things.
But the knob to tweak first is note placement."
Got the point............
My whole thing with "Groove" is that you don't think about it when your in
it. Yes, note placement technically is what's happening and you adjust it
(in most cases subconsciously) to fit in with the other players. That's true
with all music. Placing the right notes at the right time. If you have to
analyze what your doing while your playing and your thinking about every
note, you cannot groove. Groove is not analysis, especially in a live
setting. Analyzing notes and thinking about every measure is more for
classical music. And I've never heard of a classical orchestra
grooving......
JC
ofus at one point or another.
Jim
"Tony Done" <tony...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:G4s2c.90587$Wa.4...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
George Lawrence
groove itself what it is. I also think that God and women can't be explained
either so "I may be totally wrong but I'm a dancin' fool"!
--
George Lawrence
George's Drum Shop
1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
Copley, Ohio 44321
http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
http://www.Drumguru.com
330 670 0800
toll free 866 970 0800
"If thine enemy wrong thee,
buy each of his children a drum."
-Chinese proverb
"Doug Fuller" <dougfu...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:VKq2c.90$%q3...@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
Bob Agnew
"game". When you're :in your groove", you're "on your game".
JC
groove!
Dan Radin
> Analyzing notes and thinking about every measure is more for
> classical music. And I've never heard of a classical orchestra
> grooving......
It's obvious you've never played in a decent orchestra.
Big Bone Bailey
When I looked up "Groove" in the dictionary, all it said was "See entry
for James Brown; Keith Richards; Max Roach."
'Nuff said.
TW
--
I ate the last mango in Paris
Took the last plane out of Saigon
Took the first fast boat to China
And there's still so much to be done.
-Jimmy Buffett-
Remove "MY HEAD" to reply
Boom
>for James Brown; Keith Richards; Max Roach."
>
>'Nuff said.
Really? So these are the only 3 people capable of grooving?
John B
--
John B
"JC" <J...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:68-dnXOIwfJ...@adelphia.com...
Mike brown
>
> Nicely put, Doug!
>
> All I would add is that, like everything in life, there DOES seem to be
> more than a bit of voodoo, or "x-factor", or "feeling", "vibe",
> whatever-ya-wanna-call-it in all of this stuff as well.... and that's
> probably what JC means by "feeling".
>
> But Les', Doug's, and my point is that it's often surprising to people
> how much of what we think of as 'feeling" in music is actually
> defineable, quantifiable, manipulatable, etc.... even if, as Doug points
> out, some of the most wicked groovers in the biz don't think about this
> stuff at all.
>
> Paul
>
>
> Paul Asbell
> pas...@paulasbell.com
> www.paulasbell.com
But it is still a human thing. Whilst it is possible to get a groove going
on a drum machine, it is more readily achieved with a decent drummer.
MJRB
John Riolo/amdrumparts
Those who know do not say, those who say do not know.
JC
band and talking about the "Right Orchestra" they weren't it.
But I love playing Big Band, and that music can really groove with the right
musicians.
"Dan Radin" <dan....@veriWORMzon.net> wrote in message
news:cCy2c.22975$YN5....@nwrdny03.gnilink.net...
paul asbell
Bob Robinson wrote:
>Steve,
>
>I like your definition. "The Groove" exists when NO PLAYER in the band can
>"knock it out" of groove. Everyone is so locked into the "right" parts. It
>doesn't happen often, but when it does for me, it's like I'm just sittin'
>back listening to a really tight band--I just have some drumsticks in my
>hand, and they seem to just be on autopilot. Sometimes, I start thinking
>that maybe I need to screw up something a little just to make sure I'm
>really there playing live, but I find that I CAN'T--"The Groove"'s got us!
>
I like this definition, too, Steve. It pretty well describes what it
feels like when you're in it w/ other players. Everyone's on JUST the
right part, played in JUST the right way, w/ JUST the right tone and mix
relationship, and no one wants it to change, 'cuz it feels so RIGHT!
BUT...
>
>I would bet it is NOT truely mathematical. A "Groove" is NOT a drum machine
>or metronome--that would define MECHANICAL, not GROOVY(!) Something in our
>human perception is keyed in very observantly to spot the truly mechancial
>and identifiy it as "non-human", so that couldn't be the definition of a
>Groove.
>
This is a misunderstanding, IMO.
You're of course correct, that simply being EXACTLY on the mathematical
beat ain't it. We all agree that an early Madonna dance tune is not what
we mean by Groove!
What one notices when you study the great stuff, however, is that the
the little beat accents, the slight push-and-pull that occurs at the end
of an 8 bar phrase, where a drum fill might go, the way the rhythm
surges forward a bit after the build-up into the chorus, the way the
band "sucks it back in" after the chorus, at the top of the next
verse... all this stuff has numerical values.
Ya learn a lot, trying your best to duplicate it in a sequencer. I'm NOT
talking about totally quantized rhythms here... that's what you're
referring to above.
>
>I think the groove would be analyzed as "bad tempo" (mathematically),
>because it would drift and surge at exactly the right spots, in exact
>synchronization with what others in the band are doing at the same time, but
>would fail when held against a strict mathematical measure of time and
>tempo.
>....
>
That's right... that's what it looks like. But as you say, the WAY it
does it is what it's all about. It's REALLY worth looking into. I must
say it's helped me be a better real-time groove player to have also
sequenced tracks for 15 years.
William C.
Groove... I know it when I'm in it, I fake it when I'm not.
paul asbell
JC wrote:
>Kenwood Dennard on Maceo Parker's Life on Planet Groove Album.....That's
>groove!
>
I'm DEFINITELY down w/ that!
Steve White
>Hmmm. My band is quick to tell me when I'm not in it.
>Tony D
So they're trying to tell you that the whole of the rest of the band is
grooving and you aren't. If you're the drummer I'd find that very hard to
believe. More likely no one is in it and they're blaming you for this fact.
Obviously, if the drummer isn't keeping steady time or holding down the
correct rhythm then everyone else in the band will struggle to hit a groove.
But I've had my fair share of times when I believe I've been doing exactly
that and its the other players who aren't "getting with the programme"!
Cheers,
Steve W
Boom
Spoken like a drummer ;)
Steve White
>>So they're trying to tell you that the whole of the rest of the band is
>>grooving and you aren't. If you're the drummer I'd find that very hard to
>>believe. More likely no one is in it and they're blaming you for this
fact.
>>
>>Obviously, if the drummer isn't keeping steady time or holding down the
>>correct rhythm then everyone else in the band will struggle to hit a
groove.
>>But I've had my fair share of times when I believe I've been doing exactly
>>that and its the other players who aren't "getting with the programme"!
>
>Spoken like a drummer ;)
Indeed ... but one who also plays bass and guitar ... which I mention just
in case it that makes my observations any more valid ;-)
Steve W
Steve White
>I would bet it is NOT truely mathematical. A "Groove" is NOT a drum
machine
>or metronome--that would define MECHANICAL, not GROOVY(!) Something in our
>human perception is keyed in very observantly to spot the truly mechancial
>and identifiy it as "non-human", so that couldn't be the definition of a
>Groove.
No doubt. Strict mathematical timing is not groovy. However, to me, there's
a consistency about the placement of the main accents or beats within any
groove which anchors the rhythm to the flow of time and I believe its the
consistency of those main anchor points which helps create the groove.
I think of a groove as "momentum" ... which is to say that a truck steaming
along at a steady speed with sufficient weight to it can't easily be
deflected, sped up or slowed down. That's very different to just "speed" ...
where something is either just moving fast and has little weight behind it
... so it can easily be knocked off course or slowed down / sped up.
Now how many inexperienced musicians do you know who try to create that
sense of motion by pushing harder? The effect is simply increased speed but
with increased instability. If they understood that the groove comes from
the stable and relaxed momentum which is born out of consistent phrasing and
the weight that comes behind the music when all of the musicians lock
together and hook in to the steady flow of time "beneath the music" ... then
perhaps they could focus their efforts on a more productive approach to
creating a groove ... or we could simply continue to mystify the whole thing
and let them work it out for themselves.
Cheers,
Steve W
bja...@iwaynet.net
>>But I've had my fair share of times when I believe I've been doing exactly
>>that and its the other players who aren't "getting with the programme"!
> Spoken like a drummer ;)
Sure, boom, Like you'd know if you weren't locking with the drummer.
The point is that a "groove" can't be created by just a drummer
or a bass player or any single band member alone. Groove is a meeting
of the minds. It's a synergy where the whole is greater than the sum
of the parts. The drummer can groove his ass off, but if no when
else locks in, the band has no groove.
Benj
--
Due to SPAM innundation above address is turned off!
JC
"The point is that a "groove" can't be created by just a drummer or a bass
player or any single band member alone. Groove is a meeting of the minds.
It's a synergy where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. The
drummer can groove his ass off, but if no when else locks in, the band has
no groove."
Spoken by a musician that's been around. Very good point. The groove isn't a
beat or a rhythm. It's when musicians play at a level where the result is
greater than the sum of it's individual parts.
Jim
<bja...@iwaynet.net> wrote in message news:c2fnaa$cu8$2...@tribune.oar.net...
Tony Done
good example is the way the Rolling Stones played together.
Tony D
<bja...@iwaynet.net> wrote in message news:c2fnaa$cu8$2...@tribune.oar.net...
Boom
I was just making a drummer joke...gee whiz...I thought drummer jokes
were still allowed.
Les Cargill
>
> Les Wrote:
>
> "On one level, where you're enjoying the performance, sure. That's being
> kind of organic and holistic about it.
>
> But if you are trying to acheive that as a result, knowing that
> changing note placement will change the groove is more useful. And
> it's not *just* note placement - it's envelope, attack,
> lots of other things.
>
> But the knob to tweak first is note placement."
>
> Got the point............
> My whole thing with "Groove" is that you don't think about it when your in
> it.
I wholeheartedly agree - it's like what sports dewds call "being
in the zone". Some days you can "throw a no hitter".
> Yes, note placement technically is what's happening and you adjust it
> (in most cases subconsciously) to fit in with the other players. That's true
> with all music. Placing the right notes at the right time. If you have to
> analyze what your doing while your playing and your thinking about every
> note, you cannot groove.
Agreed again - although I can, and I know other players who can
conciously adujst things to change the groove - but you still kind of
have to experiment, and it's not an algorithmic thing, really.
> Groove is not analysis, especially in a live
> setting. Analyzing notes and thinking about every measure is more for
> classical music. And I've never heard of a classical orchestra
> grooving......
--
Les Cargill
Simon Zagorski-Thomas
It's interesting that when people have tried to define being 'in a
groove' they've concentrated on what happens to the product, the
music, and less on what happens in the producer, the musician. My
guess is that it's a physical thing like dance or long distance
running - you create a loop of physical actions (playing your
instrument, tapping your foot, swaying, nodding etc) that take an
exact amount of time to perform (e.g. a bar) and that becomes your
metronome. The trick (and the relaxed feeling that comes from being in
the groove) is to develop smooth, continuous movements that are
exactly the same (and therefore last exactly the same amount of time)
over and over - and to shut off your higher level thought processes so
that they don't interfere.
Can you play in the groove if you can't dance?
My guess is also that locking onto an external stimulus makes the
whole process easier and that grooves played by groups of musicians
will exhibit more accurate timing than by solo players (on average).
I'm doing some multitrack recordings of some jam sessions this week so
that I can do some timing comparisons - see how much the microtiming
actually changes when the musicians feel they actually hit a groove.
Simon ZT
"William C." <misterw...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<c2ffqp$1tei57$1...@ID-216853.news.uni-berlin.de>...
Bob Agnew
"Boom" <m...@nnn.com> wrote in message
news:l42n40h7j6i3mdssf...@4ax.com...
They are. Just be vewy vewy carefull about bassist jokes.
paul asbell
Simon Zagorski-Thomas wrote:
>This thread's been really useful to my research. Thanks
>It's interesting that when people have tried to define being 'in a
>groove' they've concentrated on what happens to the product, the
>music, and less on what happens in the producer, the musician. My
>guess is that it's a physical thing like dance or long distance
>running - you create a loop of physical actions (playing your
>instrument, tapping your foot, swaying, nodding etc) that take an
>exact amount of time to perform (e.g. a bar) and that becomes your
>metronome. The trick (and the relaxed feeling that comes from being in
>the groove) is to develop smooth, continuous movements that are
>exactly the same (and therefore last exactly the same amount of time)
>over and over - and to shut off your higher level thought processes so
>that they don't interfere.
>
Sounds like a lot of truth in that, Simon.
>
>Can you play in the groove if you can't dance?
>
I dunno... but it'd be a lot less likely, i'd guess.
>
>My guess is also that locking onto an external stimulus makes the
>whole process easier and that grooves played by groups of musicians
>will exhibit more accurate timing than by solo players (on average).
>I'm doing some multitrack recordings of some jam sessions this week so
>that I can do some timing comparisons - see how much the microtiming
>actually changes when the musicians feel they actually hit a groove.
>
>
>
>
I'd be real interested in reading what you come up with.
--
Best regards
Bob N
William C.
"Simon Zagorski-Thomas" <sim...@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:82d720dd.04030...@posting.google.com...
> It's interesting that when people have tried to define being 'in a
> groove' they've concentrated on what happens to the product, the
> music, and less on what happens in the producer, the musician. My
> guess is that it's a physical thing like dance or long distance
> running - you create a loop of physical actions (playing your
> instrument, tapping your foot, swaying, nodding etc) that take an
> exact amount of time to perform (e.g. a bar) and that becomes your
> metronome. The trick (and the relaxed feeling that comes from being in
> the groove) is to develop smooth, continuous movements that are
> exactly the same (and therefore last exactly the same amount of time)
> over and over -
If this were all there was to it, there wouldn't be any use in humans....
machines could do it all.... and they don't quite, "measure up,".... yet.
I picked, "Mustang Sally," for its, "flaw(s)," as well as its strengths....
> and to shut off your higher level thought processes so
> that they don't interfere.
> Can you play in the groove if you can't dance?
Can you dance if you can't play in a groove?
Yayes, some dance wit de woid, some on de floor... some on a fretboard....
and some musicians can actually do all three, chew gum and talk at the same
time, pat their heads rubbing their bellies.
> My guess is also that locking onto an external stimulus makes the
> whole process easier and that grooves played by groups of musicians
> will exhibit more accurate timing than by solo players (on average).
For me, the best as a solo is when a specific/non-specific inter/inner
connection is made and expressed.... The, "time," is only part of it...
> I'm doing some multitrack recordings of some jam sessions this week so
> that I can do some timing comparisons - see how much the microtiming
> actually changes when the musicians feel they actually hit a groove.
>
> Simon ZT
Groovy, Simon, groovy.
Bob Agnew
"Bob N" <pre...@spam.com> wrote in message
news:_zN2c.56329$aa6....@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
Pan
Zagorski-Thomas) wrote:
[snip]
>Can you play in the groove if you can't dance?
[snip]
Definitely! Dancing and playing musical instruments are different
skills that require different types of body control.
Michael
If you would like to send a private email to me, please take out the TRASH, so to speak. Please do not email me something which you also posted.
Les Cargill
>
> I play in a rut. Is that the same?
A rut is more seasonal.
--
Les Cargill
JD
far more difficult.
JD
"Bob Agnew" <rag...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:rXN2c.21699$h23.5833@fed1read06
Mike C.
such a way that his hi-hat is slightly ahead of the beat, but his kick nails
the beat, you may have an infectious groove.
Groove seems to be taking a whole new meaning with this thread. I can
certainly play a 16th note shuffle on the guitar and have it groove far
better (or sometimes worse) than another player might. That would be the
consideration of my time, my tempo, my accent on the upstroke, and what
ratio the shuffled notes are in conjunction with each other. Of course I'm
not mathematically counting this out, but I *can* figure out how to play the
secondary notes a little ahead of the beat or a little behind the beat to
change the groove.
Doesn't have to be a whole band, and it certainly doesn't have to be more
than one player. All you're talking about is the difference between a
drummer who grooves and a band that can't lock into that groove.
--
Mike C.
http://mikecrutcher.com
"As much as I love music, I never really thought it was my life. I thought
it was the vehicle I used to express my life" - Herbie Mann
"JC" <J...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:5KadnR7kad7...@adelphia.com...
Mike C.
Yes, because the bassist may be forced to take a solo to get back at you...
guitarprincess
--
Sheli
http://www.yourinspection.com/shelispage.htm
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/6/shelianthony.htm
"Simon Zagorski-Thomas" <sim...@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:82d720dd.04030...@posting.google.com...
> Hi all
>
> I'm doing some research for a conference paper in April 04 on the
> psychology of getting into a groove. If any of you are interested /
> prepared to fill out a short questionnaire on the subject could you
> email me and I'll send a copy back to you.
>
> I'm a composer / producer / sound engineer who now lectures at the
> London College of Music & Media in the U.K. This research is related
> both to my teaching of Popular Music, Jazz and World music and to my
> PhD thesis in composition.
>
> Thanks for your help and interest.
> Simon Zagorski-Thomas
Mike C.
news:404B95D0...@worldnet.att.net...
Well, it *can* be an algorithmic thing, actually. It's just not necessarily
what's going through the player's mind at the time, and quite possibly
*can't* be what's going through the player's mind. Kind of like a discussion
of swing: No one can literally count out the ratio of the first 8th note to
the 2nd 8th note to define some definition of "swing". However, one can lean
more toward one way as opposed to another. For example, a drum machine can
be programmed to play exact, literal triplet feel. A 3-to-1 ratio in 8th
notes. That just doesn't sound like swing. However, moving that 2nd note
back a little can give a much better "swing" to it. Moving the 2nd note so
that's it's a little later could give more of a "dotted 8th note-->16th
note" feel. I may not be able to literally count that out in my head while
playing it, but I can certainly approximate that in my playing.
bja...@iwaynet.net
> Can you play in the groove if you can't dance?
Considering how FEW musicians can dance, if you had to know
how to dance to groove, that'd limit the number of bands that
might even have the POSSIBILITY of grooving to about three! :)
[Of course James Brown IS one of that three!]
Benj
(You play it and I'll dance it or I'll play it and you dance it)
(Stolen from I don't remember who)
JC
me, there's
a consistency about the placement of the main accents or beats within any
groove"
Even without strick placement of accents, sometimes the groove is the
overall feeling
of the music. I saw David Garibaldi with Tower of Power this summer. He had
some odd accent patterns between the snare and HH, but it worked with the
music.
Man did it work!
I created a small sample about 2 MB at :
Http://www.jimwalent.com/top/top.mp3
Live sample of Knock Yourself Out from Live and in Living Color.....Feel the
groove!
Jim
"Steve White" <sjwhiteNOSP...@easynet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:xjI2c.19037$Y%6.17...@wards.force9.net...
JC
back at you..."
But god has his ways.......LOL read further! This is by Tony Levin.
In the beginning there was a bass. It was a Fender, probably a Precision,
but it could have been a Jazz - nobody knows. Anyway, it was very old ...
definitely pre-C.B.S.
And God looked down upon it and saw that it was good. He saw that it was
very good in fact, and couldn't be improved on at all (though men would
later try.) And so He let it be and He created a man to play the bass.
And lo the man looked upon the bass, which was a beautiful 'sunburst' red,
and he loved it. He played upon the open E string and the note rang through
the earth and reverberated throughout the firmaments (thus reverb came to
be.) And it was good. And God heard that it was good and He smiled at his
handiwork.
Then in the course of time, the man came to slap upon the bass. And lo, it
was funky. And God heard this funkiness and He said, "Go man, go." And it
was good.
And more time passed, and, having little else to do, the man came to
practice upon the bass. And lo, the man came to have upon him a great set of
chops. And he did play faster and faster until the notes rippled like a
breeze through the heavens.
And God heard this sound which sounded something like the wind, which He had
created earlier. It also sounded something like the movement of furniture,
which He hadn't even created yet, and He was not so pleased.
And He spoke to the man, saying "Don't do that!"
Now the man heard the voice of God, but he was so excited about his new
ability that he slapped upon the bass a blizzard of funky notes. And the
heavens shook with the sound, and the Angels ran about in confusion. (Some
of the Angels started to dance, but that's another story.)
And God heard this - how could He miss it - and lo He became Bugged. And He
spoke to the man, and He said, "Listen man, if I wanted Jimi Hendrix I would
have created the guitar. Stick to the bass parts."
And the man heard the voice of God, and he knew not to mess with it. But now
he had upon him a passion for playing fast and high. The man took the frets
off of the bass which God had created. And the man did slide his fingers
upon the fretless fingerboard and play melodies high upon the neck. And, in
his excitement, the man did forget the commandment of the Lord, and he
played a frenzy of high melodies and blindingly fast licks. And the heavens
rocked with the assault and the earth shook, rattled and rolled.
Now God's wrath was great. And His voice was thunder as He spoke to the man.
And He said, "O.K. for you, pal. You have not heeded My word. Lo, I shall
create a soprano saxophone and it shall play higher than you can even think
of."
"And from out of the chaos I shall bring forth the drums. And they shall
play so many notes thine head shall ache, and I shall make you to always
stand next to the drummer."
"You think you're loud? I shall create a stack of Marshall guitar amps to
make thine ears bleed. And I shall send down upon the earth other
instruments, and lo, they shall all be able to play higher and faster than
the bass."
"And for all the days of man, your curse shall be this; that all the other
musicians shall look to you, the bass player, for the low notes. And if you
play too high or fast all the other musicians shall say "Wow" but really
they shall hate it. And they shall tell you you're ready for your solo
career, and find other bass players for their bands. And for all your days
if you want to play your fancy licks you shall have to sneak them in like a
thief in the night."
"And if you finally do get to play a solo, everyone shall leave the
bandstand and go to the bar for a drink."
And it was so.
JC
"Boom" <m...@nnn.com> wrote in message
news:l42n40h7j6i3mdssf...@4ax.com...
JC
I'd say yes, I'm a white guy that plays drums and can groove, but dancing is
not a strong suit. I feel a lot more comfortable on the stage and off the
dance floor.
"Simon Zagorski-Thomas" <sim...@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:82d720dd.04030...@posting.google.com...
JC
Wisdom of Neil Peart from the song "Face Up"
"I'm in a groove now Or is it a rut? I need some feedback But all the lines
are cut"
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/rush/faceup.html
"Bob N" <pre...@spam.com> wrote in message
news:_zN2c.56329$aa6....@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
JC
> Analyzing notes and thinking about every measure is more for
> classical music. And I've never heard of a classical orchestra
> grooving......
It's obvious you've never played in a decent orchestra.
bongo boy
hamhock in your cornflake.") You know it when you hear it, but that doesn't
mean you can define it.
Simon Zagorski-Thomas
pushing and pulling of note positions within a (relatively) consistent
framework - plus the use of dynamic and timbral changes to create
phrasing 'gestures' and 'shapes' - aren't flaws. The Meters didn't
play with internally consistent time but the variations were
consistently similar and so you hear them as being meant/deliberate
and as having meaning - a laid back groove instead of out of time
playing.
Does playing in the groove involve an altered state of mind? ...and if
so, what alters?
Simon
"William C." <misterw...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<c2g8m4$1pupjj$1...@ID-216853.news.uni-berlin.de>...
Matt
Much of classical music was the dance music of its day; maybe not Requiems
typically, but minuets certainly. For that matter, John P. Sousa's
"Washington Post March" was THE biggest dance craze of its day. #1 on the
Hit Parade (as it were). I would love to know what dance they did to it.
Sousa was funky, who knew?
"You must listen to the music for what the music is, not for what it isn't."
Unknown
Matt Porter
"JC" <J...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:1oudnYtZ45P...@adelphia.com...
Mike brown
> In rec.music.makers.bass Simon Zagorski-Thomas <sim...@lycos.com> wrote:
>
> > Can you play in the groove if you can't dance?
>
> Considering how FEW musicians can dance,
Judging by what I've seen in the last few years, a lot of dancers can't dance.
MJRB
JC
They'd say "Get down with yor bad self Johnny!"........"Go White Boy Go
White Boy Go!"
"Matt" <porterd...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Se-dnbMpC_1...@giganews.com...
JC
...and if so, what alters?"
Maybe so, but that's like trying to describe your state of mind and what's
alters during meditation, I'd like to call my state of mind during a groove
as calm and peaceful, or sometimes it's excited. All i know is that's it's a
very good feeling. You just know. Unfortunately not being a poet or a
writer, I find it difficult to pin point.
Jim
tomw
sim...@lycos.com says...
> Hi all
>
> I'm doing some research for a conference paper in April 04 on the
> psychology of getting into a groove. If any of you are interested /
> prepared to fill out a short questionnaire on the subject could you
> email me and I'll send a copy back to you.
>
> I'm a composer / producer / sound engineer who now lectures at the
> London College of Music & Media in the U.K. This research is related
> both to my teaching of Popular Music, Jazz and World music and to my
> PhD thesis in composition.
>
> Thanks for your help and interest.
> Simon Zagorski-Thomas
>
questions?
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
buh...@ecn.ab.ca
http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/groovy.html
(-:
: "Simon Zagorski-Thomas" <sim...@lycos.com> wrote in message
: news:82d720dd.04030...@posting.google.com...
: Hi all
: I'm doing some research for a conference paper in April 04 on the
: psychology of getting into a groove. If any of you are interested /
: prepared to fill out a short questionnaire on the subject could you
: email me and I'll send a copy back to you.
: I'm a composer / producer / sound engineer who now lectures at the
: London College of Music & Media in the U.K. This research is related
: both to my teaching of Popular Music, Jazz and World music and to my
: PhD thesis in composition.
: Thanks for your help and interest.
: Simon Zagorski-Thomas
: begin 666 audio.gif
: M1TE&.#EA$ `+`+,``,X`(?___P``````````````````````````````````
: M`````````````````````"P`````$ `+```$(C#(&0"@F-HK>=Y>I8&6:'8D
: 3IT[I>K9=C)*R
Rbsoul
George Clinton - Parliament/Funkadelic
Ken Willinger
Hear my clips at:
<A HREF="http://www.soundclick.com/kenwillinger">http://www.soundclick.com/ke
nwillinger</A>
See me play a clip at:
<A HREF="http://homepage.mac.com/getken/iMovieTheater2.html">http://homepage.
mac.com/getken/iMovieTheater2.html</A>
nobody
Groove is in the Heart - Deee-Lite
JC
<buh...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in message news:xz%2c.2454$G3.19666@localhost...
JC
"Mike C." <Funki...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:rkP2c.80458$ko6.430833@attbi_s02...
JC
No....How about Dance Fever with Danny Terrio...NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! lol
Momentary lapse of reason......Sorry people
"Mike brown" <rock...@senet.com.au> wrote in message
news:rockon02-080...@1cust50.tnt7.adl1.da.uu.net...
Mike C.
face of the planet.
--
Mike C.
http://mikecrutcher.com
"As much as I love music, I never really thought it was my life. I thought
it was the vehicle I used to express my life" - Herbie Mann
"Simon Zagorski-Thomas" <sim...@lycos.com> wrote in message
Mike C.
one instrumentalist. A good drummer can't *make* a band groove, but he/she
can play a great groove.
--
Mike C.
http://mikecrutcher.com
"As much as I love music, I never really thought it was my life. I thought
it was the vehicle I used to express my life" - Herbie Mann
"JC" <J...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:ioedncvt5pE...@adelphia.com...
Les Cargill
>
> The Meters, and now the Funky Meters, had/have the best groove ever on the
> face of the planet.
>
What he said. Although the Funk Brothers...
> --
> Mike C.
> http://mikecrutcher.com
> "As much as I love music, I never really thought it was my life. I thought
> it was the vehicle I used to express my life" - Herbie Mann
>
<snip>
--
Les Cargill
George Lawrence
can measure it, describe it, quantify it, qualify it, circumlocute it, etc.,
etc., etc., until the cows come home but unless the student gets in up
amongst it and does the wang dang doodle then he still don't understand
what it is or how to do it.
--
George Lawrence
George's Drum Shop
1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
Copley, Ohio 44321
http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
http://www.Drumguru.com
330 670 0800
toll free 866 970 0800
"If thine enemy wrong thee,
buy each of his children a drum."
-Chinese proverb
"tomw" <tw25R...@cornell.edu> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ab640604...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu...
JC
"Les Cargill" <lcar...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:404D4249...@worldnet.att.net...
SMTP
I asked the same question af a great new york session bass player 25 years
ago.
He said "One day you will wake up and it will dawn on you. You will know
what the groove and pocket are. Until then just try to keep playing in
time."
"George Lawrence" <drum...@ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:PNb3c.31976$PY.2...@newssvr26.news.prodigy.com...
Don Mackie
<Funkifizedu...@msn.com> wrote:
> The Meters, and now the Funky Meters, had/have the best groove ever on
> the
> face of the planet.
I dug out some old Robert Palmer albums the other day. The musicians on
them were a mix of The Meters and Little Feat. Great stuff!
--
Just a smile. Just a glance.
Mike brown
> Isn't this one of those "If you have to ask you'll never know"
> questions?
Reckon so.
MJRB
Dan Adler
Groove is not having to say you're sorry.
Steve White
>Well, it *can* be an algorithmic thing, actually. It's just not necessarily
>what's going through the player's mind at the time, and quite possibly
>*can't* be what's going through the player's mind. Kind of like a
discussion
>of swing: No one can literally count out the ratio of the first 8th note to
>the 2nd 8th note to define some definition of "swing". However, one can
lean
>more toward one way as opposed to another. For example, a drum machine can
>be programmed to play exact, literal triplet feel. A 3-to-1 ratio in 8th
>notes. That just doesn't sound like swing. However, moving that 2nd note
>back a little can give a much better "swing" to it. Moving the 2nd note so
>that's it's a little later could give more of a "dotted 8th note-->16th
>note" feel. I may not be able to literally count that out in my head while
>playing it, but I can certainly approximate that in my playing.
Absolutely, and moving the first note slightly ahead in time so it
anticipates the down beat also makes a marked difference.
I've also heard players playing a little more straight than 2/3 and 1/3
ratio ... a little more towards 1/2 to 1/2 ... and this can groove too.
Plus when I play scottish 6/8 marches the timing ratio is nearer 3/5 to 2/5
... which is a bit bizarre on the drum kit but works well with the snare
drum beatings we use on the pipe band scene.
Being aware of these things gives you a much better chance of adapting to
the situation and finding the groove when you find yourself in new
situations.
Cheers,
Steve W
florian schmidt
> "One nation under a groove, getting down just for the funk of it." George
> Clinton - Parliament/Funkadelic Ken Willinger
> Hear my clips at:
Yes, that one is really good.
--
to sign or not to sign, that is the question
Mike C.
--
Mike C.
http://mikecrutcher.com
"As much as I love music, I never really thought it was my life. I thought
it was the vehicle I used to express my life" - Herbie Mann
"Don Mackie" <don...@spammmesenseless.iconz.co.nz> wrote in message
news:donald-90F7F2....@news.iconz.co.nz...
Mike C.
going to be some serious groove. Ivan Neville, Papa Grows Funk, the Funky
Meters, George Porter, Jr., Brian Stoltz, the Neville Bros., Galactice,
Stanton Moore, etc.
The birthplace of funk and of American music.
--
Mike C.
http://mikecrutcher.com
"As much as I love music, I never really thought it was my life. I thought
it was the vehicle I used to express my life" - Herbie Mann
"Don Mackie" <don...@spammmesenseless.iconz.co.nz> wrote in message
news:donald-90F7F2....@news.iconz.co.nz...
Don Mackie
<Funkifizedu...@msn.com> wrote:
> Yeah, and that was clearly Palmer's best output, IMHO.
No argument here....
Don O.
> whole process easier and that grooves played by groups of musicians
> will exhibit more accurate timing than by solo players (on average).
> that I can do some timing comparisons - see how much the microtiming
> actually changes when the musicians feel they actually hit a groove.
>
> Simon ZT
>
>
I've read all the way through this topic (great) and everyone seems to
come very close but not actually take the next step closer to what I
was thinking:
Everyone trying to explain what is happening *now* in the beat, down
to the microsecond, but...
Perhaps when the listener / dancer / other player *expects* to hear
the next beat and when the player supplies it right where they
expected it = groove. Only example I can give is playing a major
scale on a piano, but wait a moment before playing the final note...
even non-musical types will *hear* the note in anticipation. When it
is finally played, everybody is happy, in the groove. I think this is
called Resolving.
So, maybe groove is the the thing that is to be filled, not what is
filling it.
Don O.
Steve White
>Don here...
>I've read all the way through this topic (great) and everyone seems to
>come very close but not actually take the next step closer to what I
>was thinking:
>Everyone trying to explain what is happening *now* in the beat, down
>to the microsecond, but...
>
>Perhaps when the listener / dancer / other player *expects* to hear
>the next beat and when the player supplies it right where they
>expected it = groove.
Hi Dan,
That was part of what I was trying to get at ... the rhythm of the piece is
completely hooked into the flow of time (by which I mean not the time as
you'd write musical notes but the passage of time itself) that the music
begins to flow in the same fashion ... it feels not only unstoppable and
takes on an irresistable quality which goes way beyond being simply well
played music or music played by musicians with a good sense of time.
Cheers,
Steve W
Mike C.
going, maybe going to land on the I chord, but they all anticipate it just
in front of the beat and very much together, then you're hearing groove.
It's getting to where you are expecting it, but just a little earlier than
expected. Especially when there is already an 8th or 16th note anticipation,
playing just slightly ahead of that really makes it sound rushed or
enthusiastic. Human players obviously don't work this out mathematically,
but it can be worked out mathematically what makes for good anticipations or
for good delaying of a note. You know, like "x" amount of MIDI clicks will
give a rushed feeling, against a bass that is right on the beat, etc.
A good example is in a B.B. King tune called "Bad Case Of Love". It's a
great tune, but to my ears, there's a conflict between the rhythm section
and the keyboard player along with B.B. The rhythm section is right on top
of the beat, making the tune sound almost rushed, even though the tempo is
rock solid. This would be the bass and the hi-hat, maybe the snare as well.
But the kick drum is more right on the beat.
The organist and B.B. are very relaxed and behind the beat, almost in a lazy
fashion. Overall, the effect is a little dizzying to me. I think both
factions are grooving in their own way, but together they are in two
different grooves.
--
Mike C.
http://mikecrutcher.com
"As much as I love music, I never really thought it was my life. I thought
it was the vehicle I used to express my life" - Herbie Mann
"Don O." <dso...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5827a252.04031...@posting.google.com...