Unusual real estate options for players
Joey Goldstein
I've been shopping to buy a new place to live in.
I've been renting a 1 bedroom apt on the ground floor of a hi-rise in a
really nice area for 7 years now. I have been able to practice my jazz
guitar and teach my private students without really disturbing the
neighbors. From time to time I have to check out some of my
amplification gear at a louder volume but i only do this for very short
periods. No problems yet. Obviously I can't rehearse a band here. Being
able to have some guys over to play is a big component of what I would
like in any place that I buy.
Things I like about apt living are indoor parking with no need to shovel
snow, when something goes wrong maintenance-wise somebody else has to
fix it. My downpayment is large enough that I could buy a not-to-fancy 2
bedroom condo outright, with no mortgage. This means that my only
carrying costs would be the monthly condo fees which often cover
insurance, heat, hydro and cable. This would be pretty cool, but I won't
be able to play. (unless.....see below) I could probably find a condo
like this in a relatively nice area but not as nice as the area I am
presently renting in. Boo hoo.
7 years earlier I had been sharing a rented detached house for over 10
years with a piano player friend and his wife. It was a bit of a dump in
a not so great area but we could do what ever we needed to musically.
Things I hate about house living are shoveling snow, cutting grass,
furnace maintenance, etc. Things I will hate about owning a house will
include the added financial pressure of maintenance of things like the
roof and the plumbing, etc. I am prepared to take out a small mortgage
for the right house but I have an aversion to borrowing money especially
with the amount of interest paid out over a long amortization period. I
can not afford to buy a house in a real nice area. All these problems
are amplified by the fact that I will be there alone with no other help.
Getting a tenant would be a last resort if my finances became too stressed.
So I like apt living and dislike much about house living but, being a
player, I really *need* to be in a house.
My questions are to you guys out there who are not living in detached
houses and have found some way to make some noise.
1. Is there anybody out there living in a condo who has been allowed to
use the common room to rehearse a band from time to time?
2. Is there anybody living in a townhouse, duplex or semidetached house
that has a layout that allows for not too much noise to be transferred
to the other units in the building?
3. I've looked around a bit for the type of rehearsal space I would need
to occasionally rehearse a band but usually these places are far away
and geared towards rockers, plus they are pricey.
4. Any other creative solutions that folks have come up with to this
age-old problem are welcome.
--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
=Bob=
[deletions]
: My questions are to you guys out there who are not living in detached
: houses and have found some way to make some noise.
I found rehearsal space in the after-hours use of
industrial property. Close by for me anyway. Gotta
know somebody though.
=Bob=
bob -at- threestrands -dot- com
Mondoslug1
Maybe renting a duplex/townhouse type thing with a basement/garage you could
sorta soundproof a little................with cool neighbors. That's probably
key.
I used to do that & ehearse the band with drummer over there.
My tunes at:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/5/andymostmusic.htm
Mark Kleinhaut
Even a single family detached house is no guaranty you won't have hassels
from neighbors if they are the type with perpetual hair accross their asses.
Sounds like the ticket for you would be a town house style condo with a full
basement where you could do some soundproofing. Basesments are relatively
easy to soundproof and the biggest concern would be the thickness of the
adjoining basement wall. You could probably do it quite well for about $3,000
labor and materials...it's not rocket science.
http://www.markkleinhaut.com
http://www.invisiblemusicrecords.com
markkl...@hotmail.com
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Pt
While in one apartment I had the guys come over and we all used
headsets and recorded our sessions.
No drums or percussion though.
The people I play with now and I have been together for over ten
years.
I found the answer that works well for us.
I contacted the local park district and spoke with the park
commisioner about us renting the park building on a one night per week
basis.
It was acceptable but we had to become a club to be able to use the
facilities.
We then formed a club and called ourselves the Chicago Jam Club.
Our rent was reasonable.
I decided that we all chip in $5-$10 towards it each time we got
together.
This has worked out well.
We were able to pay the rent and have a little left over each week.
In time we were able to buy mic's, a mixer, amp and speakers (PA).
When we have extra $ we throw a pizza party.
This allows us to practice for gigs as well as to jam when there are
no gigs scheduled.
Just an idea.
It works for me.
Pt
Gerry Scott-Moore
<nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> So I've got some money (through my family) for a large down payment and
> I've been shopping to buy a new place to live in.
Great! Don't look back. In my first home only 5 years and I can't
believe that I didn't do what it took to get this done earlier. It's a
delight.
> So I like apt living and dislike much about house living but, being a
> player, I really *need* to be in a house.
I agree, and though I had an inkling I never knew how much it modified
my approach to music to be in an apartment.
> My questions are to you guys out there who are not living in detached
> houses and have found some way to make some noise.
>
> 1. Is there anybody out there living in a condo who has been allowed to
> use the common room to rehearse a band from time to time?
In my previous condo, I could get the common room, but I had to do a
document, shuffle keys and since it was a common room, people traipsed
through a lot and wanted to chat. We'd rehearse and they'd be drinking
and trying to get "requests". It wasn't horrible but it was too public.
> 2. Is there anybody living in a townhouse, duplex or semidetached house
> that has a layout that allows for not too much noise to be transferred
> to the other units in the building?
My biggest complaint about the condo, was that if they farted upstairs
I knew it. And the common wall on both sides were way too
sound-permeable. Despite it's comfort and modernity I still
periodically felt like I was living in a rabbit hutch. And loud music
was simply not acceptable. Sometimes we sorta "swapped" but that was
only with obvious party-type noise/music. We'd grin and bear it on
Friday and they would on Saturday. But not for rehearsals or daily
play. And it could be quite strained. Actually noisey neighbors and
the animosity it eventually produced was what drove us to buy a home
elsewhere.
> 3. I've looked around a bit for the type of rehearsal space I would need
> to occasionally rehearse a band but usually these places are far away
> and geared towards rockers, plus they are pricey.
I've found pretty cheap space, and it seems to be getting cheaper
actually as (editorial opinion) the number of younger musicians
decline. The problem for me is if I have to get off my put and get int
he car, in any kind of weather, or any time of day, to play with a
little volume, I simply don't do it. If it was for consistent
rehearsal (tues and thurs) of a set crew, it's feasible.
I know three sets of players that swap a single studio they each have
two days and can line up for the 3rd each week. All totaled it hardly
costs them gas money.
> 4. Any other creative solutions that folks have come up with to this
> age-old problem are welcome.
In my old condo, living with headsets was a total drag. My only
suggestion, is that you look hard and long at a place where you will
have to do a bit of maintenance, but you're in an unconnected dwelling.
Condos have rules and bylaws that can pretty much control your life.
In your own home, you're more or less free, legally, to do what you
like, and have a lot more opportunities for moving stuff around,
baffling and making it a place you can play without community
disregard.
Again congratulations on your impending migration...
--
///---
Joey Goldstein
Yeah but you can't find out if your neighbors are cool until after
you've moved in and start making some noise.
> My tunes at:
> http://www.soundclick.com/bands/5/andymostmusic.htm
--
Joey Goldstein
Mark Kleinhaut wrote:
>
> Even a single family detached house is no guaranty you won't have hassels
> from neighbors if they are the type with perpetual hair accross their asses.
>
> Sounds like the ticket for you would be a town house style condo with a full
> basement where you could do some soundproofing. Basesments are relatively
> easy to soundproof and the biggest concern would be the thickness of the
> adjoining basement wall. You could probably do it quite well for about $3,000
> labor and materials...it's not rocket science.
Hmmm. I was expecting you, the jazz banker, to chime in with mortgage
advice Mark! <g>
Everything I've read about soundproofing leads me to believe that in
order to do it right a lot more than 3k needs to be spent. The key seems
to be in having an air pocket between all adjacent wall structures. The
problem is that in order to hold the walls that are creating the air
pockets together you have to have studs holding the walls together and
the vibrations can then travel through the studs.
Of course that's if you want 100% isolation.
Why do you figure a town house style condo? Because it's a little
cheaper than a detatched house?
Joey Goldstein
Gerry Scott-Moore wrote:
>
> In article <3F4F79DF...@nowhere.net>, Joey Goldstein
> <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>
> > So I've got some money (through my family) for a large down payment and
> > I've been shopping to buy a new place to live in.
>
> Great! Don't look back. In my first home only 5 years and I can't
> believe that I didn't do what it took to get this done earlier. It's a
> delight.
>
> > So I like apt living and dislike much about house living but, being a
> > player, I really *need* to be in a house.
>
> I agree, and though I had an inkling I never knew how much it modified
> my approach to music to be in an apartment.
>
> > My questions are to you guys out there who are not living in detached
> > houses and have found some way to make some noise.
> >
> > 1. Is there anybody out there living in a condo who has been allowed to
> > use the common room to rehearse a band from time to time?
>
> In my previous condo, I could get the common room, but I had to do a
> document, shuffle keys and since it was a common room, people traipsed
> through a lot and wanted to chat. We'd rehearse and they'd be drinking
> and trying to get "requests". It wasn't horrible but it was too public.
lol
I thought these rooms were for residents who wanted to throw private
parties from time to time?
Yep. It will probably end up being a detached house....but I'd really
rather not. <g>
> Again congratulations on your impending migration...
>
> --
> ///---
--
paul
<nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>fix it. My downpayment is large enough that I could buy a not-to-fancy 2
>bedroom condo outright, with no mortgage. This means that my only
>carrying costs would be the monthly condo fees which often cover
>insurance, heat, hydro and cable. This would be pretty cool
it would be awesome!
>
>So I like apt living and dislike much about house living but, being a
>player, I really *need* to be in a house.
>
I am missing something here. sounds like the only thing you can't do
is rehearse a band with a drummer. everything else should be fine.
>My questions are to you guys out there who are not living in detached
>houses and have found some way to make some noise.
>
I live in an apartment 3 family row house in brooklyn, ny and my
drummer lives down the street in the same sort of deal. he has a deal
with his neighbors that he can play until 10pm every night, and nobody
complains. he has some minimal soundproofing set up in the room.
sounds like when you go to look at a place to buy, you should talk to
the neighbors and explain what you do, and ask them if it will bother
them or if you can work out a schedule or something. if they all have
day jobs and are never there, you can rehearse weekday
mornings/afternoons all you want and noone will care.
>3. I've looked around a bit for the type of rehearsal space I would need
>to occasionally rehearse a band but usually these places are far away
>and geared towards rockers, plus they are pricey.
>
in toronto this may not work, but when I lived in raleigh, nc, the
standard practice space for a band was to rent out a room at one of
those public storage spaces. public storage spaces are cheap, and I
think most of the ones near raleigh got more buisness from bands than
they did from people storing their couches.
if renting a rehearsal space is your only option, do a cost benefit
analysis of how much it would cost to rent out a space for a rehearsal
+ buy your condo vs. how much it would cost to buy a house.
dollars to doughnuts it's cheaper to buy a condo and rent a rehearsal
space for the next 10 years than buy a house, provided you rehearse a
full band once or twice a week.
--paul
Kevin Van Sant
:
>My questions are to you guys out there who are not living in detached
>houses and have found some way to make some noise.
>2. Is there anybody living in a townhouse, duplex or semidetached house
>that has a layout that allows for not too much noise to be transferred
>to the other units in the building?
My place was built in the early 70's. Construction seemed to be much
more solid in those days than it is in the cookie cutter condos and
apartments you see nowadays. The soundproofing between units is
surprisingly good here. I virtually never hear a peep from either of
my neighbors. And I don't have any problem practicing with or without
my amp whenever I want.
>4. Any other creative solutions that folks have come up with to this
>age-old problem are welcome.
In most cases your neighbors are likely to keep regular working hours
so that you, being a typical musician with irregular hours, would
possibly be free to make all the noise you want from 9 to 5.
I've had plenty of sessions here at my crib without any complaints
from my neighbors. Though they have all been daytime sessions. But
like you said, you may not really know much about your neighbors until
after you've already bought the place and moved in.
_________________________________________
Kevin Van Sant
jazz guitar
http://www.kevinvansant.com
to buy my CDs, listen to sound clips, and get more info.
Alternate site for recent soundclips
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/kevinvansant_music.htm
Mark Kleinhaut
Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>
>Hmmm. I was expecting you, the jazz banker, to chime in with mortgage
>advice Mark! <g>
>
Well, you said you'd rather not borrow. Rates are at near record lows, so
if you did go for a mortgage you really couldn't ask for better timing.
I don't actually do that kind of banking, by the way, so I won't be much
help.
>Everything I've read about soundproofing leads me to believe that in
>order to do it right a lot more than 3k needs to be spent. The key seems
>to be in having an air pocket between all adjacent wall structures. The
>problem is that in order to hold the walls that are creating the air
>pockets together you have to have studs holding the walls together and
>the vibrations can then travel through the studs.
>
>Of course that's if you want 100% isolation.
>
>Why do you figure a town house style condo? Because it's a little
>cheaper than a detatched house?
>
First, you don't need tree 100% isolation- it's not like you're setting up
a recording studio where you need to keep sound out. Your need is to keep
your sound in. Most townhouses are set up as duplexs where you have basement/first
floor/second floor with single ajoining wall. If you set up your basement
space right, three walls will be facing the outside ground so they will barely
need any treatment at all, just some absorbing matial to deaden the hard
reflections back into the room. The ceiling is not a huge deal because you
don't need to kill all of the sound going into your living space, just enough
that it doesn't then go up and then sideways to your neighbor's space. This
can be accomplished by using regular fiberglass insulation between the the
ceiling joists in the basement and covering it with sheetrock. The KEY is
that you want to stop all air infiltratin between the floor, so you'll need
to caulk all the cracks and joints etc. Then, the basement door will need
to be made extra heavy by attaching a layer of heavy particle board for mass
and putting in air tight weatherstripping completely around - or just tear
it out and put in a heavy duty exterior grade steel door and perhaps a storm
door to boot. Finally, the trick with the adjoining basement wall is to
"float" the wall. this means you build a standard framed wall a foot out
from the common basement wall and isolated it from the common wall with air
space and insulation (fiberglass). The contact points may also need rubber
poitns to reduce transfer of vibration. The floor shouldn't be really much
trouble and can probably just be carpeted.
If you need more, let me know. When we built our recording studio I got reasonably
deep into this stuff. BTW, the only advantage to the townhouse, which is
why I suggested it, is that you'd have the association to takecared of all
the groundskeeping and mainetenace.
Myself, I own a large 1829 Federal Style house with a soundproofed front
room (from our studio days) big enough for 4 or guys to play. Ironically,
now when the guys come over we actually play in a different (also large)
room that is not sound proofed. We have two apartements in our house with
cash flow that covers all of our homeowning expenses and they don't mind
hearing our music- so all's cool.
I do have to snowblow and mow my own lawn, however:)
>--
>Joey Goldstein
>http://www.joeygoldstein.com
>joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
Joey Goldstein
Well that's the ideal way I'd like to look at things too. But I can't
see how I could be 100% sure before I buy a place that I'd even be able
to practice guitar at jazz levels in an apartment. Sure I could talk to
the neighbors before I buy but those people could move out out the day I
move in.
The nightmare scenario is that I shell out all that money for a condo,
move in, and the first time I play my guitar or have a student over
there is a complaint about the noise. THAT would be a disaster no matter
how much money I'm saving.
paul
<nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>see how I could be 100% sure before I buy a place that I'd even be able
>to practice guitar at jazz levels in an apartment. Sure I could talk to
>the neighbors before I buy but those people could move out out the day I
>move in.
>
I never practice any louder than I would listen to music on the stereo
or watch a movie, which everyone does. do you practice with the amp
really loud or something?
I think the real key (provided you go the condo route) is to take a
proactive approach to dealing with your prospective neighbors. invite
them for coffee, and talk to them. they will like you right off the
bat and be far more understanding.
--paul
Max Leggett
<nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>So I've got some money (through my family) for a large down payment and
>I've been shopping to buy a new place to live in.
Hey, congratulations! Need a brother?
As far as copndos go, you'd likely get away with a couple of
rehearsals and then someone would complain and you'd be barred.
How about buying a commercial property, renting out the space, and
have your living quarters/rehearsal space whereever? I used to live at
King and Bathurst, the prices there have skyrocketed, but King and
Dufferin and points west are still funky and affordable. Quite
possibly you could put your money into a down payment on a reasonable
property and let the rental income carry your mortgage and maintenance
costs. You'd need to find a competent commercial realtor to advise
you, and get a good accountant to go over the figures first, but
that's the way I'd go. If your neighbours are warehouses, who's to
complain about noise?
Joey Goldstein
Did I mention how I don't want to do ANY renovations. <g>
I'm hoping for real "just move in" condition. Whatever I buy I'm goping
to be tapped out for cash afterwards and I do not want to have to
earmark any extra money I luck into afterwards for home renovations or
hopefully even for maintenance. I need that money for GAS. <g>
> If you need more, let me know. When we built our recording studio I got reasonably
> deep into this stuff. BTW, the only advantage to the townhouse, which is
> why I suggested it, is that you'd have the association to takecared of all
> the groundskeeping and mainetenace.
That's a thought. Do townhouse owners usually contract out for groundskeeping?
I know much less about townhouses than i do about condos, co-ops and co-ownerships.
> Myself, I own a large 1829 Federal Style house with a soundproofed front
> room (from our studio days) big enough for 4 or guys to play. Ironically,
> now when the guys come over we actually play in a different (also large)
> room that is not sound proofed. We have two apartements in our house with
> cash flow that covers all of our homeowning expenses and they don't mind
> hearing our music- so all's cool.
>
> I do have to snowblow and mow my own lawn, however:)
I can't afford a snowblower (I really shouldn't be buying anything with
my income) and the last time I lived in a house I just used a WeedWhacker.
Mark Kleinhaut
Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>Did I mention how I don't want to do ANY renovations. <g>
>I'm hoping for real "just move in" condition. Whatever I buy I'm goping
>to be tapped out for cash afterwards and I do not want to have to
>earmark any extra money I luck into afterwards for home renovations or
>hopefully even for maintenance. I need that money for GAS. <g>
>
Joey, now your just being dopey:) Just borrow three thousand more and you'll
have that extra cash to do the soundproofing....
>
>That's a thought. Do townhouse owners usually contract out for groundskeeping?
>I know much less about townhouses than i do about condos, co-ops and co-ownerships.
>
Joey, a townhouse is really the same as a condo as far as legal ownership
and management/association structure goes. The only difference I know of
is that the units are in small clusters of two or sometimes four units, rather
than huge apartment building style. The architectural precurser to the townhouse
was the garden apartment.
JMK
>
>
> Everything I've read about soundproofing leads me to believe that in
> order to do it right a lot more than 3k needs to be spent. The key seems
> to be in having an air pocket between all adjacent wall structures. The
> problem is that in order to hold the walls that are creating the air
> pockets together you have to have studs holding the walls together and
> the vibrations can then travel through the studs.
>
> Of course that's if you want 100% isolation.
>
>
Someone I know in town is bulding a recording/rehearsal studio. He's
making his walls rather thick with a big fat air pocket between them,
and staggering the studs (which are thinner than the wall thickness)
so that they are alternately flush on opposite sides to the wall's
edges. This reduces the vibration between studs.
JMK
Mondoslug1
This is true. Although around these parts there's alot of white trash....so
they usually like the racket. Covers up their hollering & worse stuff.
mark
> I've been shopping to buy a new place to live in.
- snipped
Joey,
I've owned a townhouse for almost 3 years now, though I'm in a unique
situation because there is no association/condo fees in my development. It
is basically an upper-middle class row home, but here on the main line in
the Philly burbs they don't dare call em rowhouses : )
Anyways, I can tell you that the sound will travel between units no matter
how well constructed your home is. If it is attached, sound will travel if
you are playing loud. That said, my neighbor has a grand piano in his living
room, and I can only faintly hear him when he plays it. He doesn't work, so
if I take a day off or something, and I'm in my basement (the basements are
connected to, and that is the only place that sound seems to transfer
between townhouses) I can hear him. But I don't mind - in fact I love it,
because a. the guy is pretty good and b. it assured me that I'd have no
problem playing my guitar at even above reasonable volumes.
However, rest assured I don't play all that loudly. I've had people over in
my basement to jam, specifically recently I had a blues harp player over a
couple of times, and this guy insisted on playing his harp through an old
silvertone 10 or 15 watt tube amp that was pretty loud. After hearing him
play unplugged, I could see why he hated to play without his amp cus he
sounded sterile and not so good. Anyways, I was waiting to hear from my
neighbors after he left, but they never said a thing. I'm sure they heard it
though. So to stop myself from keeping on rambling, here are my main
responses to you:
1. I could *never* have a drummer or loud band in my house unless it was
during the day, and really, I just wouldn't do that anyway. It's rude - what
if your neighbor decides to take a day off from work to catch up on sleep or
something?
2. Soundproofing is great, and believe me, whatever you buy, unless it is a
condo with expensive association fees (that will completely eat away at any
chance of actual long-term upside, value-wise, in the property you buy - see
point #3 below), you're gonna have to get off your duff and learn to do some
maintenance. And guess what, it never ends. My place is about 16 years old
and I still always see something I want to update/oil/fix/paint/whatever.
And it is a well-built place too.
3. Here is the bottom line. And I'm no longer employed in the investment
field, nor have I ever really been involved with real estate from an
investment perspective anyway professionally, but I can tell you this - I
bought my place less than 3 years ago, and due to the lowered interest rates
and the general increase in real estate prices in most good areas, and some
luck (some brand new developments were built right next to mine, at twice
the price), I stand to make at least $40 or $50k after taxes and the closing
costs/commissions on moving to another house, if I were to sell this house
today. That;s a lot of money. So my point being - don't choose your place
solely because of music. Music is much more important to you than it could
ever be to me, because you make your living at it. Me, I don't have the
talent/drive to do that. But both you and me have one thing in common - we
have to consider our financial future in all major purchasing decisions. And
a house is a big one. So weigh the investment value into the decision as
well. Renting is nice, but it's true when they say it's throwing your money
away. That isn't to all rental situations are not good - I rented for a long
time, but when you have the money and the means, you really should buy.
Hope I didn't make it even more confusing for you. Best of luck
Max Leggett
wrote:
>However, rest assured I don't play all that loudly. I've had people over in
>my basement to jam, specifically recently I had a blues harp player over a
>couple of times, and this guy insisted on playing his harp through an old
>silvertone 10 or 15 watt tube amp that was pretty loud. After hearing him
>play unplugged, I could see why he hated to play without his amp cus he
>sounded sterile and not so good. Anyways, I was waiting to hear from my
>neighbors after he left, but they never said a thing. I'm sure they heard it
>though.
Freinds of mine used to have a house in Cabbagetown that was part of a
two-unit building. Two single family dwellings, attached on one wall
is what I'm trying to say. At any rate, the house on the other side of
the shared wall was inhabited by retired nuns. Brian and Barbara were
boozers and ravers, unlike mygoodself [ahem], and enjoyed having lots
of friends over, with instruments, for a lively drunken brawl/jam
session that would go on 'til the wee hours. Half the guests would
regularly sleep over, some in spare beds, some on couches, some on the
floor. They were those kind of parties. Loved 'em. But the nuns never
once complained. Neither did anyone else, although I'm sure the racket
must have travelled well up the street leaving no one in any doubt. On
the other hand, one of the regular guests at Brian and Barbara's, one
B.B. Boyle, used to practice his 175 _acoustically_ and the neighbours
would be down his throat. In my last place [a condo] the neighbour on
one side called the police on me at 4 in the morning claiming that I
was shouting and having an argument. Said he heard two guys shouting.
I live by myself, apart from the fact that I don't shout. I suggested
to the two cops that they check the neighbour out for hallucinatory
substances. So neighbours and noise are the luck of the draw. When in
doubt, turn it to 11 and let the gods work it out.
Tony Beltran
Joey (and group):
I have lived in a condo for about 15 years now.
While I am not a professional musician and currently
don't teach guitar from home, I would like to caution
you on one major point: association rules, regulations
and bylaws.
You need to read these very carefully. In my state,
Minnesota, these have to be made available to you before
you purchase the unit. I don't know how this works in
other states. The problems you can run into involve the
means by which these rules and regulations can be used
by others in the association to curb the things you may
need to do that might irritate the neighbors. For example,
if you have many guitar students coming and going, people
might start to complain. This does not necessarily need
to involve extra noise. If an association has regulations
regarding running a business involving customers coming and
going, you could run into trouble.
I was on the board for our association for a 3 year term.
during that time, we had an attorney rewrite the bylaws
for our association so that we could close loopholes and
have the legal "teeth" to deal with various problems
involving rental of units, pets, etc. The condo I live
in is really quite decent compared to a lot of what I
saw when looking for a place, and I am happy there. So
this post is not a bitch session by an unhappy condo
owner. But, I can see potential problems if you don't
carefully assess what you are getting into in whatever
association you choose to join. Bear in mind that an
association is a legal entity, and as such has enforceable
rules, regulations, and bylaws (depending on how well they
are written).
At its best, there will always be some kind of friction
going on between somebody in the association. That is just
how people are. Most of the time, these issues can be dealt
with one on one. But, when it goes to the board and the
management company, then the wording of the bylaws and
rules and regulations becomes really nitpicky.
You need to know exactly what the rules, regulations, and
bylaws say about anything that even comes close to what
you intend to be able to do.
Tony B
Skip Moy
planning to pull it off especially in an arptment type dwelling. You need
to use the "air" to isolate and act as a buffer. An archtitet friend of mine
designed a drum room/music room studio in an apt complex a few years ago.
Since our apts out here are made of concrete and steel he had to float the
ceiling and floor with a large isolated space. As far as I know the
neighbours do not complain.
Skip
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:3F4F961D...@nowhere.net...
Joey Goldstein
paul wrote:
>
> On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:46:32 -0400, Joey Goldstein
> <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>
> >see how I could be 100% sure before I buy a place that I'd even be able
> >to practice guitar at jazz levels in an apartment. Sure I could talk to
> >the neighbors before I buy but those people could move out out the day I
> >move in.
> >
>
> I never practice any louder than I would listen to music on the stereo
> or watch a movie, which everyone does. do you practice with the amp
> really loud or something?
Not usually, but I'd like to be able to occassionally.
> I think the real key (provided you go the condo route) is to take a
> proactive approach to dealing with your prospective neighbors. invite
> them for coffee, and talk to them. they will like you right off the
> bat and be far more understanding.
>
> --paul
--
Denise and Al
mine had problems with his neighbors so he went to a restaurant where he
kind of knew the owner and asked if he could use his banquet room on a off
night to have a practice session in weekly. The owner LOVED it because it
was FREE music....just another idea.....although i don't agree with playing
for free most of the time, but if all else fails. When he decided to
practice elsewhere the owner offered him money after that just to play there
weekly. Cheap restaurant owners!!! pssssssst!!!!!!!! :)
"Tony Beltran" <tbel...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:YqU3b.228882$It4.1...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
Stan Fong
Joey.
I use to live in a half-plex. It was on the corner of the street and L
shaped. The common wall was my living room and my neighbor's garage.
I never got any complaints. If you do look for a place that has common
walls find out where your neighbor's living room and bedrooms are. If
they are on the opposite sides of commom wall it shouldn't be a
problem.
I still think a detached house is your best bet. It will appreciate in
value more than a condo or halfplex would. YMMV depending on the
location. Also check the size of the lot and spacing between houses.
If your not a great handyman and don't want to do too much work or
maintenence, a newer home is the way to go. Older homes have more
warmth, charm and less sterile feel to it than newer homes. Older
homes always need something fixed like water heaters, heater, AC
plumbing etc. Some of the older homes only have two prong electrical
outlets and noiser electricity. Newer homes usually have more
insulation, double pain windows which helps isolate the sound. Newer
home are better for someone who doesn't want to deal with repairs and
replacements.
Buying a home is the biggest and best investment you'll ever make in
your life. Take your time. As Mark K. said interest rates are near
record lows. It's a great time to buy. For me, paying my own note is
better than paying for someone else's note when you rent. My house
will be paid off in 11 years. I'll be 58 by then and won't have to
worry about a house payment when I retire.
Good Luck,
Stan
Ted Vieira
I agree with you about the beauty of apt living. I love living in
apartments, given that you've got neighbors who respect you. I've always
been pretty lucky at having apartments that were in great, older (I like the
older style buildings) places that were cheap to heat, easy to load gear
into, and I loved never having to fix anything myself.
I hate working on houses and yards. That's not my thing at all. Luckily, my
fiancé loves doing all that stuff. It's practically what she lives for!
Houses do have a lot of related costs that you don't have in apartment
living. However, with the low interest rates right now, and with a sizeable
down payment, you can easily end up with a mortgage payment that is less
than you'd pay for rent... and it won't go up! Also the tax break is very,
very cool!
I'm sorry, I guess I don't have a lot of useful information for your dilema,
but I was just happy to read a post from someone who, like me, loves the
convenience of apartment life. It's really an easy way to go, but I think
the house will really solve your desire to be able to practice with a full
band, and it can work out a lot better, financially.
Good luck!
Ted
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
http://TedVieira.com
Bio Info, Free Online Guitar Instruction,
Instructional Books, Articles, hear my CDs and more...
--
Soloing Over Altered Chords: 4 ways to use melodic
minor scales to solo over altered dominant chords.
View at: http://TedVieira.com/altered/index.html
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
Max Leggett
wrote:
>Hey Joey,
>
>I agree with you about the beauty of apt living. I love living in
>apartments, given that you've got neighbors who respect you. I've always
>been pretty lucky at having apartments that were in great, older (I like the
>older style buildings) places that were cheap to heat, easy to load gear
>into, and I loved never having to fix anything myself.
>
>I hate working on houses and yards. That's not my thing at all. Luckily, my
>fiancé loves doing all that stuff. It's practically what she lives for!
>Houses do have a lot of related costs that you don't have in apartment
>living. However, with the low interest rates right now, and with a sizeable
>down payment, you can easily end up with a mortgage payment that is less
>than you'd pay for rent... and it won't go up! Also the tax break is very,
>very cool!
>
>I'm sorry, I guess I don't have a lot of useful information for your dilema,
>but I was just happy to read a post from someone who, like me, loves the
>convenience of apartment life. It's really an easy way to go, but I think
>the house will really solve your desire to be able to practice with a full
>band, and it can work out a lot better, financially.
>
You buy 5 condos in the same building. One to live/work in, and the
others top bottom and either side. You fill all the other condos with
cotton batten. Now no one can hear you. Problem solved. Next!
Joey Goldstein
Ted Vieira wrote:
>
> Hey Joey,
>
> I agree with you about the beauty of apt living. I love living in
> apartments, given that you've got neighbors who respect you. I've always
> been pretty lucky at having apartments that were in great, older (I like the
> older style buildings) places that were cheap to heat, easy to load gear
> into, and I loved never having to fix anything myself.
>
> I hate working on houses and yards. That's not my thing at all. Luckily, my
> fiancé loves doing all that stuff. It's practically what she lives for!
> Houses do have a lot of related costs that you don't have in apartment
> living. However, with the low interest rates right now, and with a sizeable
> down payment, you can easily end up with a mortgage payment that is less
> than you'd pay for rent... and it won't go up! Also the tax break is very,
> very cool!
>
> I'm sorry, I guess I don't have a lot of useful information for your dilema,
> but I was just happy to read a post from someone who, like me, loves the
> convenience of apartment life. It's really an easy way to go, but I think
> the house will really solve your desire to be able to practice with a full
> band, and it can work out a lot better, financially.
That's probably the way I'll go in the end.
It's just a drag that I could probably afford a somewhat luxurious condo
in a decent area but can only afford a somewhat dumpy house in a less
desireable area. Location-wise my main criterium is I have to be within
10 miles from my Mom's retirement home, and she lives in a pretty
upscale area. I'll be on the other side of the tracks.
If I had the option to move away from the Toronto core I could find a
real nice house in my price range.
Joey Goldstein
Does Doug make plugs for condos too?
Joey Goldstein
Any of you Toronto area folks rented a rehearsal space before?
How much did it cost?
Where?
Would you recommend it to someone else?
How did you find out about it?
thornton
Built in 1890 it has one and a half foot thick walls. I've played with a
full quintet (piano, bass, drums,sax, and guitar) with nary a peep from the
neighbors. I knock off at ten pm out of respect. One of my neighbors' kids
had a rock band that rehearsed in the basement and you couldn't hear them
above the first floor. Look for thick walls and, as has been said in other
posts, make nice with the neighbors. Turnover in houses is much slower than
apartments which is great if you get along, but potentially murder if you
don't. Good luck, Thornton
Tom Lippincott
>and management/association structure goes. The only difference I know of
>is that the units are in small clusters of two or sometimes four units,
>rather
>than huge apartment building style. The architectural precurser to the
>townhouse
>was the garden apartment.
my Mom just bought something called a "patio home" that's pretty cool, and
seems at least somewhat along the lines of what you're talking about; it's
basically a duplex with a garden in the back and yard in front. There is a
neighborhood association who takes care of the lawn, and only the kitchen and
living room are actually connected to the other place. There are 3 bedrooms
that don't have any adjoining walls to the neighbors. I was thinking to myself
as I was helping her move in that this type of place would be perfect for me if
I ever wanted to buy a place (I, like you, despise yardwork and "fix-it" type
stuff). Oddly enough, while we were moving in, the place next door went up for
sale! For about 30 seconds I considered looking into it, but I really don't
want to live in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
I would imagine with a place like that the big variable would be the neighbors.
If you happened to have neighbors who were anal about noise then no matter
what kind of soundproofing you do you might have problems, whereas I could
having drums playing in a place like that in one of the bedrooms if the
neighbors were at least marginally cool with noise (or if you figured out when
they weren't home).
When I was first married my wife and I lived in a condo, with VERY difficult
neighbors. One time her and I were going over some tunes very quietly at night
(like where I could hear the acoustic sound of the guitar louder than the
amplified sound, and it was a solid body) and our neighbor banged on our door
saying we were keeping her up because my guitar was "vibrating her wall." We
later figured out that though the neighbor's bedroom didn't face our place, she
usually fell asleep in front of the TV on her sofa, which was against the wall
to our place, and this was when we'd been keeping her awake. Anyway, it just
goes to show that sometimes no matter what you do in that situation someone
will find something to complain about.
Incidentally, the place I live in now is somewhat of a dream place for a
musician, though I rent. It's a downtown apartment (in Hollywood, FL) on the
second floor above an Italian market. There are no neighbors to disturb at
night (well actually I have a neighbor who live in the apartment next door, but
she's a musician as well). Aside from the fact that noise is never an issue,
even though I live in an urban area, I really don't have to worry much about
safety/break ins because no one realizes anyone even lives up here.
This is a pretty unusual situation, though; I've never seen or heard of another
place like this, though I'm sure there must be some other places in the world
along these same lines.
Tom Lippincott
Guitarist, Composer, Teacher
audio samples, articles, CD's at:
http://www.tomlippincott.com
8 string guitar audio samples at:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/3/tomlippincottmusic.htm
kevin coffey
tween neighbors)
2) Don't shovel; buy a snowblower. They are a blast (literally). You
will get your $$$ worth.
3) Hire a kid to cut the lawn.
Kevin Coffey
New Hampshire (also lots of snow)
Max Leggett
wrote:
>1) Buy the house for all the above (investment, more control, buffer
>tween neighbors)
>2) Don't shovel; buy a snowblower. They are a blast (literally). You
>will get your $$$ worth.
>3) Hire a kid to cut the lawn.
Good advice. And for anything else there are always ads in the local
community paper for handymen. Sliding door stuck? Want a mirror hung
without falling down? These guys are very reasonable in price. I'm
with everyone else here: maintenance=Satanic ritual. If God wanted me
to know how to operate a power drill He wouldn't have invented guitar
picks.
>Kevin Coffey
>New Hampshire (also lots of snow)
Max Leggett
New Westminster [paradise]
Al Stevens
to the practicing problem. He gigs nights and his wife works days. He rented
an air-conditioned storage unit, the kind where people store the junk they
don't need around the house. He turned the storage unit (which is mainly a
big chicken wire and wooden cage in a maze of other cages) into his practice
room. He has a digital piano and a set of drums in there so players can drop
in, and he keeps his desk and computer there, too. He lined the wire walls
with fiberboard, laid some carpet, and even hung pictures on the walls. It's
quiet, inexpensive, climate-controlled, secure, and private and it has
adequate power.
I lived in a condo for several years. Using the game room for sessions was a
pain. The sauna, steam bath, and exercise room were there, and there were
always old people wanting to play bridge or have a meeting of the condo
commandos or something. I could play my piano in my condo only from 9 am - 9
pm, and if I practiced scales or spent too much time learning a tune, the
neighbors complained. I moved to the country about 12 years ago and never
looked back.
Good luck with your move.
Al Stevens
http://www.alstevens.com
Joey Goldstein
Well there's more to my aversion to houses than just the snow and the
grass but essentially iI agree.
But if there were some secret I haven't stumbled on yet way to swing it
in an apartment I'd much rather do that.
thomas
some pre-rehabbed yuppie condo conversion. You can have
a big space, no lawn, no snow shoveling, etc., plus
you can often get away with loud volumes in the right
circumstances.
Stephan Patterson
I'm not a professional musician, but apart from that I was in a
similar situation four and a half years ago. I bought a nice condo in
the trendy Plateau district near downtown Montreal. I have no regrets.
I like living in a nice neighboorhood and I like living in a condo. I
also hate wasting two hours a day in traffic going to work and back.
By living downtown, I can use public transportation or at worst the
commute is short and usually in the opposite direction of traffic.
Prices have increased dramatically since I bought my condo. I could
sell at a very nice profit today but then I'd be paying an arm and a
leg to buy something elsewhere. I don't know how old you are or if
your needs are going to change but that's something to keep in mind.
When I bought the condo, a 4 1/2 was more than I needed. Since then I
met someone, got married and we're expecting a child in 4 weeks. What
used to be my office and practice room is now a second bedroom, the
computer is in the living room and I practice in my bedroom. I may
have to move to a house eventually but I'll be doing so reluctantly.
I play (flute mostly, guitar sometimes) in my condo during the
evening, and afternoon and evenings on weekends. I never play after 9
p.m. There have been no complaints. However, I certainly wouldn't
rehearse a band in my condo, with or without drummer. I suggest that
you find rental space. You already received some good suggestions.
Music schools often have rooms that you can rent cheap.
Stephan Patterson
Tom Lippincott
>community paper for handymen. Sliding door stuck? Want a mirror hung
>without falling down? These guys are very reasonable in price. I'm
>with everyone else here: maintenance=Satanic ritual. If God wanted me
>to know how to operate a power drill He wouldn't have invented guitar
>picks.
>
>
>>Kevin Coffey
>>New Hampshire (also lots of snow)
>
>Max Leggett
>New Westminster [paradise]
>
>
>
well Paul Gilbert might have a thing or two to say about that. (wasn't he the
guy who played guitar with a power drill that had spinning picks attached?)
Bob R
tomli...@aol.comnospam wrote on 8/31/03 11:42 PM:
> well Paul Gilbert might have a thing or two to say about that. (wasn't he the
> guy who played guitar with a power drill that had spinning picks attached?)
I think he actually had an endorsement from Makita for awhile.
--
Bob Russell
http://www.bobrussellguitar.com
CD, "Watch This!", available at:
http://www.cdbaby.com/bobrussell
Greger Hoel
wrote:
>well Paul Gilbert might have a thing or two to say about that. (wasn't he the
>guy who played guitar with a power drill that had spinning picks attached?)
A frined once raved about this "great" CD of Gilbert doing mostly (or
only, I don't remember) Hendrix covers. Only suitable to induce
vomiting or use as a coaster, IMO.
--
Greger
______________________________________________
What's up Chuck?
To email me, replace everything after @ with softhome.net
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Margaret Wilson
$$, I was able to get a much nicer house. The condos in the same price were
more like apartment-style places. When I first moved into my house (~8
years ago now), I did a lot of the work myself. Now I do my own
snowblowing, but I hire someone to do the lawn, trim bushes & trees, etc.
(I hate the heat.)
I was just talking with someone the other day who was looking for a
two-bedroom townhouse (to rent). I discovered that the rents on these are
25% more than I pay for my mortgage, and that includes escrow for insurance
and property taxes! I'd lived in a two-bedroom townhouse before I bought my
house, and the rents on that place have *doubled* in the last 8 years, and
heat is not included. Sure, it was tough the first couple years, but after
that, you start to realize the benefits of owning vs. renting -- tax break,
non-volatile payments, etc.
Regards,
Margaret
"paul" <pcsa...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:3f4f9a01....@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
> On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 12:06:01 -0400, Joey Goldstein
> <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>
> dollars to doughnuts it's cheaper to buy a condo and rent a rehearsal
> space for the next 10 years than buy a house, provided you rehearse a
> full band once or twice a week.
Peter Grey
> The nightmare scenario is that I shell out all that money for a condo,
> move in, and the first time I play my guitar or have a student over
> there is a complaint about the noise. THAT would be a disaster no matter
> how much money I'm saving.
Keep in mind that not only are you saving money in the short term, you'll be
making money in the longer term as the value of the condo goes up. I
haven't read all the posts so I don't know if someone else has made the
point that owning a place will look a lot better in ten years as the value
of the place escalates.
Peter
Joey Goldstein
Sure. except that all the other nicer places that you might want to move
into have also gone up just as much in price. sou nless you start making
lots more money you can still only afford to live in the original place
you bought.
I think it's called the rat race.
Peter Grey
> Sure. except that all the other nicer places that you might want to move
> into have also gone up just as much in price. sou nless you start making
> lots more money you can still only afford to live in the original place
> you bought.
>
> I think it's called the rat race.
>
Well, I didn't say it was a cure, just an improvement perhaps.
Regardless of whether you can afford to "move up", when you're older and
grayer you'll still appreciate the value increase for things like equity
lines and reverse mortgages. Having equity in a place allows one more
options that one has as a renter.
Peter
Joey Goldstein
Well sure. Obviously the investment potential is the reason why people
buy real estate. Otherwise it would make just as much sense financially
to rent. But still. The whole thing feels like a little inflationary
microcosm where the value of my house goes up but so does the value of
every other house I might want to buy. Thankfully the rate of real
estate inflation and the rate of general inflation has a big gap between
them. <g>
Al Stevens
> Obviously the investment potential is the reason why people
> buy real estate.
One reason. Another is so you can make improvements without getting
permission for the owner or paying to upgrade someone else's property with
no chance of recovering that investment.
.
Max Leggett
<nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>Well sure. Obviously the investment potential is the reason why people
>buy real estate. Otherwise it would make just as much sense financially
>to rent. But still. The whole thing feels like a little inflationary
>microcosm where the value of my house goes up but so does the value of
>every other house I might want to buy. Thankfully the rate of real
>estate inflation and the rate of general inflation has a big gap between
>them. <g>
>
Yeah, and in 15-20 years when you don't need to live downtown you can
afford a very nice place out in the sticks somewhere that's larger and
nicer and cheaper. I had a condo at King and Bathurst, a nice, funky,
and very central neighbourhood. I sold it at a nice profit and moved
to Vancouver where I had a place downtown, also very central. Two
months ago I sold the place downtown and now I live beside the banks
of the Fraser River, and it's unspeakably gorgeous. And quiet. And no
heavy traffic. And no panhandling junkies. And from the profit I made
on selling the two previous places I'm now mortgage free, which is
just lovely - makes me feel rich. If you start out mortgage free then
you get a whack of extra cash instead. Boo hoo. No, you won't do this
staying in a very nice very central location, but I no longer want to
live downtown, I don't need access to all the bars and restaurants and
clubs because I don't want to go out that much. If I do, then downtown
is 30 minutes away by SkyTrain. I know what you're saying about real
estate because I've been there and used to think the same way. The
only caveat I would offer is not to buy at a market peak. My timing
has been lucky, buying in troughs and selling at peaks, but I don't
think Toronto prices are out of line. They'll correct, but they won't
crash. Ralk to a real estate agent [prefereably one who's been
recommended by someone you trust] and get their advice on your
situation. There'll be no cost - they get their commisions from sales.
It's all a back-end load.