triad pairs - Gary Campbell
Paul Craven
Jazz: Practice and Application for the Jazz Improvisor" (2001).
The book is mostly practice exercises, with a very brief discussion
of applications (including four example solos at the end of the book).
I'm not sure yet how useful it will be for me from the standpoint of
improv, but it is a good reading and listening exercise in any event.
Campbell says that this book is about "manipulating" (i.e. practicing)
triad pairs. For "an in-depth study of applications" he refers to
another of his books, "Connecting Jazz Theory" (Hal Leonard). Has
anyone here used the "Connecting" book? I haven't seen a copy
locally and would like to see some opinions before deciding whether
to order it.
Paul Craven
Nazodesu
<pcr...@yorku.ca> wrote:
I've not seen either of the books you mention, but have been working
quite diligently with triads in excercises of my own devising, mostly
simplistic, in order to get some comfortable facility with these little
nuggets.
Please post any results or observations you have on the book or the
topic; at least I am very interested in the exploration.
Paul Craven
triad pairs, and he has some examples on his website iirc.
The main idea in the Campbell "Triad Pairs" book is working
with 6-note pitch collections built out of adjacent triads in the
scale of the moment, e.g. in C major the Fmaj and Gmaj triads.
Depending on the scale, the triad roots might be a semitone,
a whole tone or a tritone apart. If I get it right, the idea is that
any such six-note collection can be used over any chord
whose scale contains the two adjacent triads. So the Fmaj&Gmaj
group can be used over any chord for which you might play out
of the C maj scale, but also (since the same triad pair occurs in C
mel min) any chord over which you might play out of C mel minor,
so the pitch collection [ F G A B C D ] applies (page 11) to :
Cmi(Maj7)
CMaj7
Dsus(b2)
Dmi7
EbMaj7(#5)
Esus(b2)
F7(#11)
Fmaj7(#11)
G7(b13)
Gsus11
Amin7b5
Ami(b6)
Bmin7b5
B7alt
So one simple application of this Fmaj&Gmaj pitch collection might be to
solo over vi-ii-V-I in C.
As mentioned in my earlier post, the bulk of the book is practice exercises
to get the various triad pairs under your fingers and into your ears.
I have only just started working through it, so it's a bit early to say how
useful this is going to be ...
Paul Craven
"Nazodesu" <mus...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:290420020746467166%mus...@adelphia.net...
Joey Goldstein
Paul Craven wrote:
>
> If I get it right, the idea is that
> any such six-note collection can be used over any chord
> whose scale contains the two adjacent triads.
That's one way it can be used.
What i usually concentrate on are the relationships where the tones in
the hexatonic scale are all chord sound on the chord of the moment (i.e.
chord tones or trenions but not inharmonics).
So generally I would confine my use of the F & G triad pair/scale to
chords like:
G7sus4, Fmaj7, Dm7, Cm6, E7sus4b9, F7, B7alt
If the sound of one or two inharmonics (aka avoid notes) on a chord does
not bother you then you might try this triad pair on any number of other
chords. The following are not too far out:
G7, Cmaj7, Em7, Am7, Bm7b5
I sometimes use it to hint at the trione sub relationship between Dm7 G7
and Ab7 Db7. I.e. I might use it on Db7.
If you're just playing "out" you use the interseting intervallic
patterns it can generate anywhere for their own sake.
There is a page at my web site called Technical Exercises and I thresh
out this idea pretty thoroughly with lots of .pdf exercises and even
some composed lines over standard tunes. The lines aren't real good but
you should get the point. I just posted a new file called SummaryDMs.pdf
which lists all the possible regular (maj, min, dim aug) triad pairs,
the scale they create, some scales that they are subsets of and where
they occur within those scales.
I think you will find that in order to get any mileage out of this
appraoch a serious commitment is involved. This stuff doesn't come easy
but I think the rewards, technical dexterity and intervallic awareness
and freedom, are worth it. I've been working on Cdim & Db+ for weeks now.
Good luck.
--
Joey Goldstein
Guitarist/Jazz Recording Artist/Teacher
Home Page: http://www.joeygoldstein.com
Email: <joegold AT sympatico DOT ca>
Thom_j.
Jazz Improvisor" a Hal Leonard book too? Url if you have it?
please.. tia.. thom_j.
"Paul Craven" <pcr...@yorku.ca> wrote in message
news:7lcz8.9203$5e6.6...@news20.bellglobal.com...
Thom_j.
Jazz Improvisor" a Hal Leonard book too?? Url please, if you
have it?.. tia.. thom_j.
"Paul Craven" <pcr...@yorku.ca> wrote in message
news:7lcz8.9203$5e6.6...@news20.bellglobal.com...
thomas
and to develop facility, but taken too far that sort of exercise can
lead to mechanical-sounding solos.
What triad pairs are really useful for is harmonizing melodies
and getting new chordal sounds. Works better with piano or band,
where you can have a simple voicing in the left hand, thickening the
melody with triad pairs in the RH. That kind of thing is mostly unplayable
on guitar, but you can still use the pairs to thicken a melody even on
guitar.
"Paul Craven" <pcr...@yorku.ca> wrote in message news:<7lcz8.9203$5e6.6...@news20.bellglobal.com>...
Nazodesu
<tomb...@jhu.edu> wrote:
> Triad pairs can be used to generate melodic material for improvisation,
> and to develop facility, but taken too far that sort of exercise can
> lead to mechanical-sounding solos.
As can almost anything when taken too far.
> What triad pairs are really useful for is harmonizing melodies
> and getting new chordal sounds.
This is the direction I've been working in. Not so much the pairs
thing, though I understand the principles. I'm trying to get some
handistic ease with triads in general, and the when the time comes, to
be able to easily play a G triad or Em, say, against a CMaj9 chord
during a harmonized improv or comping situation. Primarily the later.
> Works better with piano or band,
> where you can have a simple voicing in the left hand, thickening the
> melody with triad pairs in the RH. That kind of thing is mostly unplayable
> on guitar, but you can still use the pairs to thicken a melody even on
> guitar.
Right--you can be one of the pairs.
Dan Adler
> This is the direction I've been working in. Not so much the pairs
> thing, though I understand the principles. I'm trying to get some
> handistic ease with triads in general, and the when the time comes, to
> be able to easily play a G triad or Em, say, against a CMaj9 chord
> during a harmonized improv or comping situation. Primarily the later.
Nazo,
I think the easiest way to get this going is to simply play diatonic
triads randomly over slow moving harmony. As you get better facility
with this, you can pump more theoretical knowledge into it, but the
key is getting it under your fingers. I think a Van Eps type organized
approach can get you there but it's a far slower path.
A good example is to take a progression like ||:C | Eb | D | Db :||
and just keep the diatonic triads moving in the same direction as you
cross chord boundry.
I find the book mentioned above is not useful except for the idea
itself which can be explained in two minutes. The challenge is getting
your mind and fingers to do it fast enough which is best accomplished
by the "just do it" principle.
Nazodesu
<d...@danadler.com> wrote:
> I think the easiest way to get this going is to simply play diatonic
> triads randomly over slow moving harmony. As you get better facility
> with this, you can pump more theoretical knowledge into it, but the
> key is getting it under your fingers. I think a Van Eps type organized
> approach can get you there but it's a far slower path.
Thanks for the view. This is essentially what I'm doing: "Vertical"
diatonic triads, root structure (R35) in 6 positions, then 35R and 5R3.
The I do the classic exercises with these, starting each on such steps
as 123, 234, 345, 456 and 1,3,2,4,3,5,4,6 etc. That kind of stuff. Of
couse this doesn't really actualize their usage as upper partials, and
though I have the understanding I'm not using them this way, unless I'm
actually playing.
I did that condensation of Van Eps, and am working with it very little
but am starting to turn my attention back to it. In this case it's
strictly for triad with the moving top line. I play R35 and then move
the 5 to 6 and 7. That stort of stuff.
Sure is fun. Makes me feel so empowered.
Joey Goldstein
Nazodesu wrote:
>
> In article <820e87.020430...@posting.google.com>, Dan Adler
> <d...@danadler.com> wrote:
>
> > I think the easiest way to get this going is to simply play diatonic
> > triads randomly over slow moving harmony. As you get better facility
> > with this, you can pump more theoretical knowledge into it, but the
> > key is getting it under your fingers. I think a Van Eps type organized
> > approach can get you there but it's a far slower path.
>
> Thanks for the view. This is essentially what I'm doing: "Vertical"
> diatonic triads, root structure (R35) in 6 positions,
I hope you're trying them across the fretboard too and not just as
position exercises. The thing about triads is that unlike 7th chords
they can all be played as three note close voicings and can always be
visualized on 3 consecutive strings. This makes them very much easier to
"see" across the fretboard, conceptually speaking, than they are in
position. Plus the consistent string groupings makes for consistent
picking patterns like sweeping.
I find it pretty easy to quickly play a sequence of the inversions of
the triad pair F & G across the 2nd, 32rd and 4th strings as chords.
F A C, G B D, A C F, B D G, C F A, D G B, F A C
There should be no reason why I can't arpeggiate these structures as I
pass through them at the same rate. This type of thing is a lot harder
conceptually and physically in any single position (which is one good
reason to practice it in position too!).
The same "horizontal" (across the fretboard, that is) scheme can be
applied to the triads derived from any scale, minus the inversions of
course, and using any group of 3 consecutive strings.
F A C, G B D, A C E, B D F, C E G, D F A, E G B, F A C
F A C, G B D, A C Eb, B D F, C Eb G, D F A, Eb G B, F A C
F Ab C, G B D, Ab C Eb, B D F, C Eb G, D F Ab, Eb G B, F Ab C
F Ab C, G B D, Ab C E, B D F, C E G, D F Ab, E G B, F Ab C
This works well with spread triads too. Although the 2 outer strings are
consistent the inner voice might switch from string to string.
E C G, F D A, G E B, A F C, etc.
> then 35R and 5R3.
> The I do the classic exercises with these, starting each on such steps
> as 123, 234, 345, 456 and 1,3,2,4,3,5,4,6 etc. That kind of stuff. Of
> couse this doesn't really actualize their usage as upper partials, and
> though I have the understanding I'm not using them this way, unless I'm
> actually playing.
>
> I did that condensation of Van Eps, and am working with it very little
> but am starting to turn my attention back to it. In this case it's
> strictly for triad with the moving top line. I play R35 and then move
> the 5 to 6 and 7. That stort of stuff.
>
> Sure is fun. Makes me feel so empowered.
--
thomas
> > where you can have a simple voicing in the left hand, thickening the
> > melody with triad pairs in the RH. That kind of thing is mostly unplayable
> > on guitar, but you can still use the pairs to thicken a melody even on
> > guitar.
>
> Right--you can be one of the pairs.
That's not exactly what I meant. A pianist's LH (or, say, the trombone
section in a big band) can play a two-note voicing containing the
3rd and 7th under every melody note. If you have a 3-man trombone
section, they might play a 3-note shell voicing. The voicing never changes
until the chord changes--it just echoes the melodic rhythm. Meanwhile, the
pianist's RH (or the trumpet section in the big band) harmonizes the
melody by playing whichever one of the two triads you're using that
fits under that melody note. If you have a 4-man trumpet section, the
1st and 4th chairs play the melody an octave apart, while the
2nd and 3rd chairs play the two other notes in the triad.
This approach gets a huge ensemble sound. It is more contemporary-
sounding than having the trumpets harmonize the melody with a
4-note block voicing, and sounds even bigger.
On guitar, you can harmonize melodies using the triad pairs, but
you lack the fingers left over to play something more fundamental
underneath.
Jack A. Zucker
> F A C, G B D, A C E, B D F, C E G, D F A, E G B, F A C
> F A C, G B D, A C Eb, B D F, C Eb G, D F A, Eb G B, F A C
> F Ab C, G B D, Ab C Eb, B D F, C Eb G, D F Ab, Eb G B, F Ab C
> F Ab C, G B D, Ab C E, B D F, C E G, D F Ab, E G B, F Ab C
I'm not quite sure I follow this chart. Is each line independent ?
Joey Goldstein
Yes.
#1 is just the C major scale in triads, staring on F major.
#2 is the C jazz minor scale in triads, staring on F major.
#3 is the C harm minor scale in triads, staring on F minor.
#4 is the C harm major scale in triads, staring on F minor.
I started on F chords because the sequences lay out nicely on strings 4,
3 and 2. But this should obviously be practiced on any group of 3
strings, with any scale (septatonic preferred) starting on any degree,
in all 3 inversions.
The arps can be played as follows:
up triad one, up triad two, etc.
down triad one, down triad two, etc.
up 1, dwn 2, etc.
dwn 1, up 2, etc.
or any other way you want.
Joey Goldstein
Joey Goldstein wrote:
>
> "Jack A. Zucker" wrote:
> >
> > Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
> > >
> > > F A C, G B D, A C E, B D F, C E G, D F A, E G B, F A C
> > > F A C, G B D, A C Eb, B D F, C Eb G, D F A, Eb G B, F A C
> > > F Ab C, G B D, Ab C Eb, B D F, C Eb G, D F Ab, Eb G B, F Ab C
> > > F Ab C, G B D, Ab C E, B D F, C E G, D F Ab, E G B, F Ab C
> >
> > I'm not quite sure I follow this chart. Is each line independent ?
>
> Yes.
> #1 is just the C major scale in triads, staring on F major.
> #2 is the C jazz minor scale in triads, staring on F major.
> #3 is the C harm minor scale in triads, staring on F minor.
> #4 is the C harm major scale in triads, staring on F minor.
>
> I started on F chords because the sequences lay out nicely on strings 4,
> 3 and 2. But this should obviously be practiced on any group of 3
> strings, with any scale (septatonic preferred) starting on any degree,
> in all 3 inversions.
>
> The arps can be played as follows:
> up triad one, up triad two, etc.
> down triad one, down triad two, etc.
> up 1, dwn 2, etc.
> dwn 1, up 2, etc.
> or any other way you want.
The basic exercises are posted on the Technical Exercises page at my web
site, in the file called Triads.pdf, but they all start on a triad with
root C and no fingerings are suggested. Just click on that link.
http://members.tripod.com/joey_goldstein/TechEx/techex.htm
Nazodesu
<nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> > > I think the easiest way to get this going is to simply play diatonic
> > > triads randomly over slow moving harmony. As you get better facility
> > > with this, you can pump more theoretical knowledge into it, but the
> > > key is getting it under your fingers. I think a Van Eps type organized
> > > approach can get you there but it's a far slower path.
> >
> > Thanks for the view. This is essentially what I'm doing: "Vertical"
> > diatonic triads, root structure (R35) in 6 positions,
>
> I hope you're trying them across the fretboard too and not just as
> position exercises. The thing about triads is that unlike 7th chords
> they can all be played as three note close voicings and can always be
> visualized on 3 consecutive strings. This makes them very much easier to
> "see" across the fretboard, conceptually speaking, than they are in
> position. Plus the consistent string groupings makes for consistent
> picking patterns like sweeping.
This stuff can be difficult to say in text. But if I understand what
you're saying--I'm ONLY playing them as actual 3-note chords, not as
arpeggios or "outlined" triads. I'm playing them "across" the
fingerboard--but I'm generally staying in a region of the neck.
On the lower three strings I play a major triad move my hand up the
minor above it, then the minor above that. Then over to the next set
of three and play the major, shift up two frets to play the next major,
then the next minor. Then I'm up to the next set of three and so on.
I said I was playing in position, but I most certainly am not, in that
I'm shifting my hand for every single voicing. I'm playing them
related to positions, but am moving about 3 frets above and below each
position. It takes about 6 frets to play the scale in triads There are
a few that demand a fret more I think.
Joey Goldstein
Nazodesu wrote:
>
> In article <3CCEA2DF...@nowhere.net>, Joey Goldstein
> <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>
> > > > I think the easiest way to get this going is to simply play diatonic
> > > > triads randomly over slow moving harmony. As you get better facility
> > > > with this, you can pump more theoretical knowledge into it, but the
> > > > key is getting it under your fingers. I think a Van Eps type organized
> > > > approach can get you there but it's a far slower path.
> > >
> > > Thanks for the view. This is essentially what I'm doing: "Vertical"
> > > diatonic triads, root structure (R35) in 6 positions,
> >
> > I hope you're trying them across the fretboard too and not just as
> > position exercises. The thing about triads is that unlike 7th chords
> > they can all be played as three note close voicings and can always be
> > visualized on 3 consecutive strings. This makes them very much easier to
> > "see" across the fretboard, conceptually speaking, than they are in
> > position. Plus the consistent string groupings makes for consistent
> > picking patterns like sweeping.
>
> This stuff can be difficult to say in text. But if I understand what
> you're saying--I'm ONLY playing them as actual 3-note chords, not as
> arpeggios or "outlined" triads. I'm playing them "across" the
> fingerboard--but I'm generally staying in a region of the neck.
Ah. Well in that case you might try arpeggiating them as I have
described as well as playing the same melodic patterns all in one
position. There's all sorts of ways to put this type of raw material
together and they're worth investigating IMO.
> On the lower three strings I play a major triad move my hand up the
> minor above it, then the minor above that. Then over to the next set
> of three and play the major, shift up two frets to play the next major,
> then the next minor. Then I'm up to the next set of three and so on.
>
> I said I was playing in position, but I most certainly am not, in that
> I'm shifting my hand for every single voicing. I'm playing them
> related to positions, but am moving about 3 frets above and below each
> position. It takes about 6 frets to play the scale in triads There are
> a few that demand a fret more I think.
--
Nazodesu
<nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> > This stuff can be difficult to say in text. But if I understand what
> > you're saying--I'm ONLY playing them as actual 3-note chords, not as
> > arpeggios or "outlined" triads. I'm playing them "across" the
> > fingerboard--but I'm generally staying in a region of the neck.
>
> Ah. Well in that case you might try arpeggiating them as I have
> described as well as playing the same melodic patterns all in one
> position. There's all sorts of ways to put this type of raw material
> together and they're worth investigating IMO.
I years past I did that (arpeggiated and in position). It was quite a
growth experience, but in another way it limited my "aural vision" if
you will, to line level. I never really got with these mechanisms as
triads, only as lines that if analyzed would prove to be triadic.
That's one of the reasons I find it so exciting now--I'm not
intellectually really learning that much new (though my hand is what
with all the shifts), I'm just reassembling stuff I have known but
never conceptually treated this way.
Some fun!
Joey Goldstein
You call THAT fun? What a geek. :)
Jim Kangas
"Expansions", from what I understand, a systematic method of
generating scalar patterns for practice, but I've not seen the actual
book. I'd be interested if anyone knows about this as well...
-Jim
On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:00:13 -0400, "Paul Craven" <pcr...@yorku.ca>
wrote:
Edison Ed
Definatly worth taking a look at.
E.D
Jack A. Zucker
"Triad Pairs" I was thinking of a scale which combined the two
arpeggios and not a set of diatonic arpeggios.
Joey Goldstein
On my web site I've got a series of exercises that I deem to be at the
intermediate level that are basically diatonic triad exercises using all
7 triads in all inversions. These are found towards the top of my
Technical Exercises page.
I've also got a bunch of stuff that is more advanced and deals with the
triad pairs concept. These are found more towards the bottom of the page.
BTW I've just uploaded a new line/solo/technical exercise (.pdf) on Star
Eyes changes, with midi file, that is all based on triad pairs.
Thom_j.
Tom Lippincott
>I've used his book Expansions. It has some interesting materials in it.
>Definatly worth taking a look at.
>E.D
BTW, Gary is a S. Florida tenor player who spent a long time in NYC. Most of
the "heavy weight" players like Brecker and Liebman know him and have a lot of
respect for his playing and his books. I've played with him several times and
he's one of my favorite jazz players in this area. Occasionally John
Abercrombie and Adam Nussbaum come down here and do a gig or two with him. He
also has a few records out, some with those guys, I think.
Tom Lippincott
Guitarist, Composer, Teacher
audio samples, articles, CD's at:
http://www.tomlippincott.com