Cutting Session vs. Jam Session
Mark Kleinhaut
Some time ago I was at a jam session which had a couple of younger players
joining in with some of the 40-something pros. Everything was congenial
and so forth, but some of the older players seemed like they were going out
of their way to play at the very top of their games- almost out for blood,
it seemed. Not that these guys should have necessarily held back, but I
know one school of thought says jams should be supportive and nurturing and
another says that younger players could do well by a taste of reality (and
a swift kick in the ass). Well, the youngsters got their butts kicked, but
it seemed like one of the younger players got very frustrated and discouraged
by the whole affair. I’ve seen this individual perform in other situations
and he has an incredible talent, but his tender nature couldn’t stand up
to the cutting session. I could never resolve whether this experience might
help him or hurt him in the long run. I don’t know if any of the older players
ever even gave it a second thought.
--------------------Mark Kleinhaut
markkl...@hotmail.com
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Pat Smith
I for one hate cutting sessions and believe that job one of a real
Musician is to make those around him/her sound good. So, to me, the
"rules" of polite jamming are:
1. make the others sound good
2. Don't be a solo hog - when there are 4 plus soloists waiting to have
a turn for God's sake don't take a 20 chorus solo...how about two?
3. watch your volume
4. Don't leave anyone out by calling a tune someone doesn't know. Yes,
even if it means playing a blues.
5. Don't get up to jam if can't even play a blues (with ease)
6. I think it is important to encourage others, not put them down.
People that slam others because they don't know X tune seem to me to be
stroking their own egos at the expense of others.
my 2 cents
best
Pat
Jack A. Zucker
practice are insecure about the size of their...err...chops. You also need
to be careful. There are some younger players out there who can smoke the 40
something players!
--
web: www.jackzucker.com
Steve Modica
the scene in Crossroads where Steve Vai is walking around like some kind
of possessed daemon flicking his tongue out at Ralph Machio. Am I
close?
I've seen yer picture Mark and I just can't picture you doing anything
like that with an archtop!
Steve
Bob Russell
markkl...@hotmail.com wrote on 6/3/02 3:20 PM:
>
> Some time ago I was at a jam session which had a couple of younger players
> joining in with some of the 40-something pros. Everything was congenial
> and so forth, but some of the older players seemed like they were going out
> of their way to play at the very top of their games- almost out for blood,
> it seemed. Not that these guys should have necessarily held back, but I
> know one school of thought says jams should be supportive and nurturing and
> another says that younger players could do well by a taste of reality (and
> a swift kick in the ass). Well, the youngsters got their butts kicked, but
> it seemed like one of the younger players got very frustrated and discouraged
> by the whole affair. I’ve seen this individual perform in other situations
> and he has an incredible talent, but his tender nature couldn’t stand up
> to the cutting session. I could never resolve whether this experience might
> help him or hurt him in the long run. I don’t know if any of the older
> players
> ever even gave it a second thought.
>
> --------------------Mark Kleinhaut
As someone who's had his ass kicked a few times along the way, I'd say a lot
depends on how the older guys handled it. If they weren't talking trash but
were simply kicking the younger guys' butts by virtue of their playing, then
that's a valuable learning experience right there. A painful one, but
sometimes learning is painful. There's ALWAYS somebody out there who can
outplay you; if you're too tender to take that, better either get over it or
stay home. I try to take lessons from those situations and use them as
motivation to work harder.
If the older guys are behaving in an insulting way toward less experienced
players, then that's not too cool. In a case where someone's just flat-out
smoking another player, the music should do all the talking. There's no need
to add insult to injury. On the other hand, sometimes younger guys can come
on with a little too much self-regard; it can be tempting for an older guy
to rise to the bait.
-- Bob Russell
http://www.bobrussellguitar.com
Paul Sanwald
<markkl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>know one school of thought says jams should be supportive and nurturing and
>another says that younger players could do well by a taste of reality (and
>a swift kick in the ass).
it's a little surprising that the older players were more aggressive.
in my experience, it's usually younger players that are "out for
blood". older players (again, in my experience) seem to be more laid
back, since they usually have less to prove. someone else said that
there's a lot of younger players out there that can really blow away
people twice their age, I definitely agree with that. that can be a
hard thing to swallow, too. if I was some 50 year old drummer, it
would be hard to watch some kid blow me off the stage.
>I could never resolve whether this experience might
>help him or hurt him in the long run. I don’t know if any of the older players
>ever even gave it a second thought.
>
maybe he'll just realize that jam sessions aren't really his bag at
this stage in his development. there's lots of great, great musicians
out there who would sound terrible at a jam session. there's lots of
cats that sound great at jam sessions that would sound like a broken
record if you listened to them for more than a couple of tunes.
--paul
Ted Vieira
others, but I have a problem with music and performance being thought of as
a competition. I'd have to say that if the younger players were humbled in
anyway, it was probably the best lesson they could've learned that day.
Ted Vieira
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
http://TedVieira.com
Bio Info, Free Online Guitar Instruction,
Instructional Books, Articles, hear my CDs and more...
--
Soloing Over Altered Chords: 4 ways to use melodic
minor scales to solo over altered dominant chords.
View at: http://TedVieira.com/altered/index.html
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
Thom_j.
Azzhole grasshopper, dont forget its "MeeOg' Gee" not "MeeOg'She" :)
"Steve Modica" <smo...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3CFBD844...@attbi.com...
Joe Finn
> As someone who's had his ass kicked a few times along the way, I'd say a
lot
> depends on how the older guys handled it. If they weren't talking trash
but
> were simply kicking the younger guys' butts by virtue of their playing,
then
> that's a valuable learning experience right there. A painful one, but
> sometimes learning is painful. There's ALWAYS somebody out there who can
> outplay you; if you're too tender to take that, better either get over it
or
> stay home. I try to take lessons from those situations and use them as
> motivation to work harder.
>
> If the older guys are behaving in an insulting way toward less experienced
> players, then that's not too cool. In a case where someone's just flat-out
> smoking another player, the music should do all the talking. There's no
need
> to add insult to injury. On the other hand, sometimes younger guys can
come
> on with a little too much self-regard; it can be tempting for an older guy
> to rise to the bait.
>
This was always the sort of thing that made me work harder. I never took it
personally. I wanted to be part of the club real bad so I paid the dues.
Sometimes the negativity of an experience can be highly instructive and
enlightening. ...........joe
--
Visit me on the web. www.JoeFinn.net
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Jurupari
>and so forth, but some of the older players seemed like they were going out
>of their way to play at the very top of their games- almost out for blood,
>it seemed
I really don't like this in any guise it shows itself. I understand that
defense of the bandstand may be related to survival, and that probably is what
starts a lot of it, but some of the stuff I've seen and been exposed to is
unconscionable.
I remember a club in Hartford 20 years ago that used to have open sunday
sessions. If you walked in while a sitin was on stage you would have thought
the band was a bunch of amateurs, even though they could all play.
The game was when anyone they didn't know would sit in, they'd just come apart
and play garbage.
I saw them do this to a blind lady piano player one time while rolling their
eyes and making faces she couldn't see. You know, really grown up.
Once I sat in at the same time as a piano player they didn't like (he made
more money, that could have been it) They refused to play any song he called,
and would wreck the feel of anything played. There was some blues guitar hack
(I'd heard him play) who was loudly dissing every beat I made a noise on, and
the drummer, God as my witness was playing a cadence that was indistinguishable
from a coal bucket being kicked down the cellar stairs.
The bass player came in a 32nd early on one and succeeded in rattling the
piano player. I waited it out until my solo, and since someone had implied I
stole from Joe Pass when hearing me warm up, I took my pleasure with them,
playing bebop in all bent string articulation, vibrato and feedback, half with
a beer bottle slide and every four bars accenting that off 32nd note with a
loud vibrated minor second 'neener neener' interval while trying to lock gazes
with the bass player, whom I was deliberately trying to keep honest. The
drummer was so incoherent by that time I had him in with the crowd noise.
I got thru it all, made my point, got a ringing round of applause and a
grinning thumbs up from a sax player who was sitting in, put the guitar down,
looked at them all, shook my head and walked off the stand.
Man, if that's music, I'm gonna have to find another name for what I do.
By contrast, there's a good jazz group with an open Sunday session here in town
with an unbelieveable guitarist, and they're cordial as can be and a load of
fun to play with. There's another sort of open session on Wednesdays at another
club, and there's no monkey business there either. I don't know why it can't
always be that way.
In comparison of skill levels when they were serious, the Hartford people were
about as good as these two groups I mentioned here, so it wasn't like they were
lightweights that didn't know any better or thought they had to. I think they
just enjoyed using their powers for purposes of evil....hm-sounds like a job
for BirdMan!
Clif Kuplen
Greg D
> I don't get this kind of thing. The closest I can come to relating is
> the scene in Crossroads where Steve Vai is walking around like some kind
> of possessed daemon flicking his tongue out at Ralph Machio. Am I
> close?
Here I was reading this thread and getting a taste for the poor manners of some
players, when I read this post. The mental image cause me to chuckle almost
uncontrollably.
I'm gonna try that tongue flicking at Fri's practice. On second thought, I've gotta a
feelin' I could be in trouble with the NAVY SEAL guy that sits in with us, so I'll
forgo the tongue flicking.
Greg
Doc
Emersion with Don DePalmer on Piano?
--
Doc
http://www.trimcrafters.com/drpc.htm
"Jurupari" <juru...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020603212614...@mb-cp.aol.com...
Charlie Robinson
>Everything was congenial
>and so forth, but some of the older players seemed like they were going out
>of their way to play at the very top of their games- almost out for blood,
>it seemed >>
I don't know what is going on up there but these young guys down here can
play.
Charlie Robinson Jazz Guitarist, Composer
You can hear me online at: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/robinsonchazz
or: <A HREF="http://rmmgj.iuma.com">http://rmmgj.iuma.com</A>
Bill Fender
....Pains of the profession.
/bf/
"Mark Kleinhaut" <markkl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3cfb...@spamkiller.newsgroups.com...
Henry Moon
someting other than making music, I don't want to be there. And
partly, It doesnt feel good to be on the bleeding end of one of those
things.
It's hard for me to imagine a player, who was behaving, who has had
his esteem squashed at one time, passing on that pain to another
player after knowing what it feels like and how unproductive it was.
There are the fast-mouthed, misbehaving hotshots who can hotlick and
probably deserve some cuttin', but nowadays I just dont want to invest
my music or conversation with ears that can't hear. It's just pissing
in a raincoat.
Henry
David Moss
"Mark Kleinhaut" wrote ...
> I've seen this individual perform in other situations
> and he has an incredible talent, but his tender nature
> couldn't stand up to the cutting session. I could never
> resolve whether this experience might help him or hurt
> him in the long run.
There's that story of Russell Malone, how as a teenager
he got the chance to join Jimmy Smith on stage and
played in a very show-offy way, grinning and winking at
his girlfriend, whereupon Jimmy Smith deliberately humiliated
him for the rest of the set AND bawled him out in public
afterwards, bringing him close to tears. In the interview I
read, Russ Malone seemed to think that was a great
experience - which I have to admit I never quite
understood.
Mark Guest
I experienced more cutting sessions than musically supportive jam sessions
in my teen years. The ass-kickings directly contributed to my very late
entry into playing jazz. I am just now approaching the point where I can
play the stuff that I hear in my head...and the stuff that I heard as a
teenager. While many kids need some attitude adjustment, there are ways, and
then there ways. It bothers me that I waited so long to play the kind of
music that I have loved for so long. Some of us take longer to get over it
and grow up.
--
Mark Guest
JazzerWB at JahWho dot com
"Mark Kleinhaut" <markkl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3cfb...@spamkiller.newsgroups.com...
>
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
Mariane McPartland's Piano Jazz radio show. I'll trust your memory that
he was close to tears. But he told the story in a very good humored
way--that Malone himself thought he was too big for his britches. I
also recall that Smith, after taking Malone down several pegs, was in
fact very supportive of Malone.
So, it may all be in the spirit it was given. Smith clearly wanted
to help Malone, and this, perhaps, was his type of "tough love". It
certainly wasn't Smith tearing Malone down to make himself look better.
Steve
David Moss wrote:
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Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
http://www.dentaltwins.com
George4908
>he got the chance to join Jimmy Smith on stage and
>played in a very show-offy way, grinning and winking at
>his girlfriend, whereupon Jimmy Smith deliberately humiliated
>him for the rest of the set AND bawled him out in public
>afterwards, bringing him close to tears. In the interview I
>read, Russ Malone seemed to think that was a great
>experience - which I have to admit I never quite
>understood.
The same dynamic happens in many places other than cutting sessions. I had one
of my first college professors do that to me on the very first paper I turned
in. It was show-off crap, I thought it was hot shit, and he pulled no punches
in saying so. Left me stunned and hurt for a few days but it was one of the
best things that ever happened to me. Smartened me right up and I never turned
in that kind of crap in again.
Guitar content: If I smell a cutting session in the works, I sit it out
because I WILL be one of the bleeders.
Dan Adler
> it seemed. Not that these guys should have necessarily held back, but I
Mark,
This tradition is as old as Jazz itself. If you read Dizzy's book he
talks about the jam sessions at Minton's and how they used to call
tunes in odd keys and twice as fast as usual to discourage weaker
musicians from sitting in with them.
I think that instilling the fear factor in younger musicians is a good
thing and usually leads the younger guys to giant leaps forward. If
you read the latest JJG, in the interview with Pat Metheny, he talks
about playing with this guy who would call "The Song is You" really
fast in a different key every night, and that's what made Pat really
learn to play in any key. Would the guy have really done Pat a favor
by being more gentle? I think not.
To paraphrase Michael Douglas from "Wall Street": Fear is good. Fear
works. Fear is one of the most motivating powers - if you don't let it
paralyze you. And jam sessions with great musicians make people
confront their fear.
The other aspect, which is equally important, is that when you listen
to people on CD's - you sometimes lose sight of what great musicians
they are in the sense of really having mastered the fundamentals of
music, and seeing them function in a "cutting session" really drives
it home, cause you just can't fake your way through that one.
So, all in all, I think it's one of the most valuable institutions in
Jazz.
Jurupari
back after that last debacle....I hope they got wise to themselves.
Clif
Joe Finn
>
> This tradition is as old as Jazz itself. If you read Dizzy's book he
> talks about the jam sessions at Minton's and how they used to call
> tunes in odd keys and twice as fast as usual to discourage weaker
> musicians from sitting in with them.
>
> I think that instilling the fear factor in younger musicians is a good
> thing and usually leads the younger guys to giant leaps forward. If
> you read the latest JJG, in the interview with Pat Metheny, he talks
> about playing with this guy who would call "The Song is You" really
> fast in a different key every night, and that's what made Pat really
> learn to play in any key. Would the guy have really done Pat a favor
> by being more gentle? I think not.
>
> To paraphrase Michael Douglas from "Wall Street": Fear is good. Fear
> works. Fear is one of the most motivating powers - if you don't let it
> paralyze you. And jam sessions with great musicians make people
> confront their fear.
>
> The other aspect, which is equally important, is that when you listen
> to people on CD's - you sometimes lose sight of what great musicians
> they are in the sense of really having mastered the fundamentals of
> music, and seeing them function in a "cutting session" really drives
> it home, cause you just can't fake your way through that one.
>
> So, all in all, I think it's one of the most valuable institutions in
> Jazz.
>
Nice post Dan. I won't make a general comment on how valuable it is. It was
valuable for me but some people might be very frustrated and discouraged by
it. We are all different. I agree that it is a firmly established tradition
and that it has it's place. That's just the way it is. Even though we didn't
make the rules, this is the game we have chosen and some things just go with
the territory. So be it.
Music is a very competitive, even cut throat business. Symphony players will
tell you about the stress of the audition process. The frustration and
disappointment of being passed over is not an easy thing. In popular music
and in jazz the audition process is not as prominent but most players are
hand picked and this can be just as tough. Even as an established player
there will still be times when you don't get one of the gigs that you might
have been hoping for. Maybe one you were counting on that paid real good,
too. That's life.
Another thing that I have been around long enough to experience is watching
young up and coming players arrive on the scene. I have to agree with what
Charlie Robinson said earlier in this thread because a lot of the young guys
I am hearing are *tremendous* players. They come out of college full of
energy with all kinds of chops and they can read anything you throw at them.
This is of course a good thing. The problem from my point of view is to see
one of them get a gig ahead of me. I've been around the block once or twice,
paid the dues and all that, so what's up? Again, that's
just the way it is.
Maybe Michael Douglas had it right. .....joe
cl...@claymoore.com
<markkl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Some time ago I was at a jam session which had a couple of younger players
>joining in with some of the 40-something pros. Everything was congenial
>and so forth, but some of the older players seemed like they were going out
>of their way to play at the very top of their games- almost out for blood,
>it seemed. Not that these guys should have necessarily held back, but I
>know one school of thought says jams should be supportive and nurturing and
>another says that younger players could do well by a taste of reality (and
>a swift kick in the ass). Well, the youngsters got their butts kicked, but
>it seemed like one of the younger players got very frustrated and discouraged
>by the whole affair. I’ve seen this individual perform in other situations
>and he has an incredible talent, but his tender nature couldn’t stand up
>to the cutting session. I could never resolve whether this experience might
>help him or hurt him in the long run. I don’t know if any of the older players
>ever even gave it a second thought.
My earliest public sessions were with a very supportive group of older
players in Florida. I know we kids were very green but they didn't do
anything on purpose to humble us, quite the opposite. Several years
later I ran into the session leader at a gig his sons were playing,
and I sat in. He told me afterwards that I played great, and that when
I was sitting in at his sessions I could barely play at all. I think
his exact words were, "you weren't playing s*!t." He was a bit drunk
at the time, but it was good natured criticism and quite correct I'm
sure.
When I first moved to Pittsburgh, PA the sessions seemed pretty
cutthroat by comparison. I heard and saw quite a few things that could
qualify as butt kicking, both friendly and not. I sat in on one
session where they called Moment's Notice, a tune I hadn't played
before. I couldn't see the pianist's book, so I was on my own. I think
they did that to "test" me, although no one said word one to me about
it. But, that beats the few occasions when the band stopped playing
and told some poor struggling player to go practice at home.
Mark, as far as your frustrated junior musician's not being able to
stand up to the session, I'd say this is just what happens and he'll
need to figure out how to cope in his own way. Maybe that sounds
harsh, but I'm NOT a competive person per se, and yet I think a
cartain amount of this is inevitable and even healthy. Like you said,
if they weren't being mean about it, just playing agressively, then
what's wrong with that?
Clay Moore
check out my new CD at http://www.claymoore.com/cd.html
cl...@claymoore.com
Nazodesu
DDS <born...@dentaltwins.com> wrote:
> I heard him (perhaps the same interview) a month or so ago on
> Mariane McPartland's Piano Jazz radio show. I'll trust your memory that
> he was close to tears. But he told the story in a very good humored
> way--that Malone himself thought he was too big for his britches. I
> also recall that Smith, after taking Malone down several pegs, was in
> fact very supportive of Malone.
I'm not sure whose version is the most correct. I know that one can
brutalize players on the stand with an atmosphere, an attitude a
ruthless word. It's called being cruel and it doesn't help anybody get
any better. If somebody needs humiliation and cruelty to "grow" I
think they might have some difficulties that don't have anything to do
with music. I'm also not convinced they such players not have "grown"
more with some people giving a hand. Jim Thorpe didn't become an
Olympian *because* of physical disabilities, but *in spite* of them.
I also think there are players whose potential as better players was
thwarted because they couldn't handle the personal abuse of others.
And why should they? What the hell does that have to do with music? If
you get really good can you then graduate to brutalizing others?
Barney Kessel's story of Charlie Christian isn't one centering around
Christian brutalizing him--it's a story of support and sharing. I
think that's the best way to teach anybody anything, bird-dogs asode
When you get bawled out for screwing up, by a supportive and
instructional boss, in the case above with Jimmy Smith, it's not the
same thing as the local gurus running you off the stand to make
themselves feel larger than others. And even with such as Smith, I
don't know that another method wouldn't have worked better.
Anyway I prefer playing WITH other folks, working towards a common
goal, working to get closer in communication. I'm not working so that
I can get the leverage to brutalize others and make neophytes feel
stupid and small. Everytime I see that on the stand it just infuriates
me, and invariabley try to counsel the victim.
Greger Hoel
<jazzerw...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I experienced more cutting sessions than musically supportive jam sessions
>in my teen years. The ass-kickings directly contributed to my very late
>entry into playing jazz. I am just now approaching the point where I can
>play the stuff that I hear in my head...and the stuff that I heard as a
>teenager. While many kids need some attitude adjustment, there are ways, and
>then there ways. It bothers me that I waited so long to play the kind of
>music that I have loved for so long. Some of us take longer to get over it
>and grow up.
Tell me about it. I'm still sore from my days back in high school,
where I for the first coupla years lagged behind my peers,
technically.
The thing with Cutting Sessions vs Jam Sessions, is that they
influence everybody differently. What inspires one guy to woodshed and
get better, crushes another guy's heart, rendering him unable to play
in public. It doesn't even come down to how tough some guy's skin is.
How well people take criticism depends on what you're critisizing them
for. A guy can be a total blowhard in most circumstances, yet very
sensitive when it comes to something as personal and deep as playing
music. If you were to downsize another player in order to make him go
home to the woodshed, you should know him well enough to know that he
will learn from the experience.
OTOH, the fact that somebody might learn something from being put down
doesn't in any way excuse the antagonist if his intent wasn't to make
a better player of his victim. I have a hard time thinking that the
guys, especially from Mark and Clif's examples, being mentioned in
this thread had any noble purpose whatsoever with their behaviour. A
bunch of players visually and musically ridiculing a blind piano
player, should have their precious fretting digits chopped right off.
*Nobody* sitting in on a jam deserves that kinda treatment.
Greger
__________________________________________________
"When you hear sweet syncopation
and the music softly moans
T'ain't no sin to take off your skin
and dance around in your bones"
--Burroughs/Waits
To email me, replace everything after @ with stud.cs.uit.no
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rick DelSavio
film "Wall Street" was that " greed is good. Greed works". I believe it was in
the scene where they are at a stock holders meeting. Although fear might also be
a motivating factor, when the fear dissipates so can the motivation. My 2 cents.
Rick
Joe Finn wrote:
--
Jazz Guitarist/Educator
Check out lessons and original music @
http://www.rickdelsavio.com
Steven Bornfeld
Obviously, I'm not a professional musician, but I'm actually surprised
much of this still goes on. I guess it's naive to think a shared love &/or
vocation would overcome the conspicuous ego stuff.
Steve
Joe Finn
> I think the line that Michael Douglas' character "Gordon Gekko" uses in
the
> film "Wall Street" was that " greed is good. Greed works". I believe it
was in
> the scene where they are at a stock holders meeting. Although fear might
also be
> a motivating factor, when the fear dissipates so can the motivation. My 2
cents.
> Rick
>
Sounds like a good movie. I hope I get a chance to see it some day.
......joe
Kev
very subtle forms of the overt maneuverings described in this thread. For
instance, the like/dislike a pack of musicians will have for someone due to
entirely non-musical, and pretty petty and political reasons, and their
willingness to make the music suffer for this.
My experience with watching cutting sessions is that every trumpet player is
trying to out-Woody Shaw the next one, every pianist looking to out-Herbie
the other one, every drummer trying to out-Tain the others, every altoist wants
to be a better Kenny Garrett than the next guy, and every guitarist gets
pretty much ignored by all of the above!
I have been dealt a handful of very healthy ass-kickings, though, and they
*have* actually made me a better player, I think, than I would be if I just got
the usual "Sounds good" line at the end of the night, so I tend to tread a thin
line on this issue.
on the other hand...
castl...@hotmail.com (Henry Moon) wrote in message news:<7123906e.02060...@posting.google.com>...
This is *very* well put, and echoes my sentiments perfectly. There isn't a whole
lot of music being played at those kinds of sessions, I'm afraid, and what is
being played is being ignored and buried under grandstand-y noises.
-Kevin
Nazodesu
<rain...@optonline.net> wrote:
> I think the line that Michael Douglas' character "Gordon Gekko" uses
> in the film "Wall Street" was that " greed is good. Greed works". I
> believe it was in the scene where they are at a stock holders
> meeting. Although fear might also be a motivating factor, when the
> fear dissipates so can the motivation.
Greed does work for those whose intent it is to acquire at any cost.
Fear is a motivating factor, especially when it involves losing life,
limb, family, etc. Murder can work to eliminate irritating people in
one's life. Robbery can work as a short-term solution to gambling
losses. Rape can be useful in eliminating sexual stress.
In fact doing any damn thing you feel like, with no thought of others,
community or society can be justified if you turn half a brain to the
topic. Or less.
All are bad. Just plain bad. Some people point to the loss of a
family member as a turning point to striving for a goal. That's no
reason to consider it valid "learning tool". Greed is bad, so is fear.
I would argue that not a single aspect of learning is enhanced by fear.
None. Nor vengence. They can be motivations, certainly. But so can
anything at all, depending on the individual.
Just my views, clearly. "Cutting sessions" have gone on for years, but
so have gang-bangs. I honestly think, though, that with the reduced
community of jazz players in the world that such are diminished
generally. I use to wander into jam sessions in years past and it was
obvious how much animosity there was. I haven't seen such things in a
long time. But then there don't seem to be as many as there were 20
years ago.
Hey if I met a player who was better than me, worse than me or anywhere
in between, I'd want to engage him on a friendly basis!
But then maybe I'm just a slow learner.
Dan Adler
> Just my views, clearly. "Cutting sessions" have gone on for years, but
> so have gang-bangs. I honestly think, though, that with the reduced
> community of jazz players in the world that such are diminished
> generally.
Nazo,
I think you got it wrong. Jam sessions are not a crime, even if people
are harsh. If you want an analogy I prefer to think of it as "basic
training" in the army. That's always been a harsh way of whipping
someone into shape quickly.
Your other point is wrong too. There is not a reduced community of
jazz players, there is an ever increasing community of jazz players.
There are thousands more players today than ever in the past coming
out of cushy college programs and thinking the world owes them a gig.
If anything, there is a reduced community of consumers...
Mark Guest
take it literally. When I play with players who play head and shoulders over
me and I don't measure up (at least to my own ear), I call that an
ass-kicking. It triggers the woodshed reflex. Maybe the principle is if you
kick your own ass when out-played, others will leave your ass alone.
Alternately, if you mug and strut while playing puerile stuff and/or missing
changes, maybe a good ass-kicking is called for.
--
Mark Guest
JazzerWB at JahWho dot com
"Greger Hoel" <gre...@spamblock.com> wrote in message
news:3cfd54f1...@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
of butt-kickin' attitude in an operating room between attendings and residents (and
even once between attendings).
I'll leave it to others to ponder whether this is a good thing.
Steve
cl...@claymoore.com wrote:
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
funkle
forms. When I was in architecture school in Colorado, we used to have
the "crits" (critiques) where you'd present your work to a bunch of
pros. I'd heard stories of the crits at schools like Yale and Cornell
where the reviewers were just brutal, they would attack any weakness
in the design they could find. I'm not sure if I agree with this
approach, but I guess it was supposed to make you learn to stand up
for your ideas; and it was a right of passage that all students would
go through, for better or worse. Well, at Colorado, the reviewers were
all so warm & fuzzy and supportive. Even the people who's designs
sucked got completely positive and encouraging reviews. I remember
wanting a little more edge - I wanted to know what my shortcomings
were so that I could address them. And I will admit that the Ivy
Leaguers seem to get a better education, although a somewhat dogmatic
one.
I agree that there is no place for cutting done out of malice ego or
insecurity. But they can be part of the learning experience. All of
the greats back in the day went through these cutting sessions, and it
made them much stronger players I'm sure. I know I get flustered more
easily when I', playing with other people I don't know, part of making
through an experience like that is keeping your composure and
confidence. So I would reason that if you can survive a cutting
session, it will make you a better player. But if you get trashed, it
could either be very damaging, or very motivating depending on your
disposition.
Jurupari
>jazz players, there is an ever increasing community of jazz players.
well, it's at least reduced by the ones who chucked it in because they were
made gun shy by the cutting process.
I don't care who supports it, I won't. I've mentioned here before getting to
play with some incredible heavyweights long before I was ready to interact
anywhere near their level.
If Joe Henderson had told me I sucked when I was 25 he would have been
absolutely right, but I would have probably hung it up then and there or at
least never have become a jazz musician. I had no confidence of any kind in my
ability. I wish he were still alive for me to say thank you for not doing
that.
Conversely, I can't count the number of guitar players I've heard who maybe
didn't have my chops but were incredible players with volumes to say. I've
learned as much music in life from people like that as from the players with
the heavyweight reputations and the killer chops.
There will forever be about 500 good jazz musicians for every money-making
situation that exists. We all know the only niche that music schools are really
filling is that of instructors to teach more people to teach music - frankly,
I'm glad that's still going on at least. So, if there's a competition thing,
it's about as sensible as competing for good numbers in the lottery.
I wonder, do other artists get into these kinds of pissing matches...like, do
dancers cut each other, and actors and painters and sculptors? Poets? I'm not
being facetious, I really don't know.
My thoughts on guitar playing are usurped from Charlie Christian, and maybe
simplified: If there ain't no money or enjoyment in whuppin it out, it stays in
the case.
There's neither in a cutting session. If I want violence, I'll pick up a
baseball bat, not a guitar. My one cent 'n pocket lint..
Clif Kuplen
Nazodesu
<d...@danadler.com> wrote:
> Nazodesu <mus...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
> news:<040620022142440670%mus...@adelphia.net>...
> > Just my views, clearly. "Cutting sessions" have gone on for years, but
> > so have gang-bangs. I honestly think, though, that with the reduced
> > community of jazz players in the world that such are diminished
> > generally.
>
> I think you got it wrong. Jam sessions are not a crime, even if people
> are harsh.
No they aren't, but since we're using so many analogies to point out
why being cruel to one another is helpeful I wanted to underscore that
negative acts and emotions are negative, not positive. Their effects
may be negative, positive or neurtal, but to simply state them as "good
for you" in some overarching way is false.
> If you want an analogy I prefer to think of it as "basic
> training" in the army. That's always been a harsh way of whipping
> someone into shape quickly.
I don't think military capability and the development of artistic
skills is quite the same thing. If being physically fit and capable of
taking orders is all that was needed it would be different. In any case
I already understood the various references to cruelty and fear being
used as "learning tools".
> Your other point is wrong too. There is not a reduced community of
> jazz players, there is an ever increasing community of jazz players.
With grade schools and high schools discarding music classes for years,
and colleges ditching all variety of arts programs for a bigger
business school, colleges in general charging 3 to 5 times what they
did a scant 15 years ago, I'm very surprised by your statement. Can you
cite information supporting this fact?
> There are thousands more players today than ever in the past coming
> out of cushy college programs and thinking the world owes them a gig.
Can you cite any information supporting this opinion?
I know that I use to be able to go to damn near any little town and
find jazz played in a number of cocktail bars and supper clubs, rock in
many bars and pop/country/blues in a few others. Now I'm lucky to find
one of each on the weekend. And during the week--nothing at all.
That's what I use to form my opinion.
Joe Finn
>
> Just my views, clearly. "Cutting sessions" have gone on for years, but
> so have gang-bangs. I honestly think, though, that with the reduced
> community of jazz players in the world that such are diminished
> generally. I use to wander into jam sessions in years past and it was
> obvious how much animosity there was. I haven't seen such things in a
> long time. But then there don't seem to be as many as there were 20
> years ago.
>
There are a lot more young players that you may realize. Since I have gotten
involved with the local school jazz band scene here in upstate NY I have
been pleasantly surprised to find that almost all the high schools and many
of the middle schools have stage band programs. This is where I got a lot of
the students for my improvisation clinics. These are the feeder programs
that will be sending the young players to college and into the ranks. There
are a whole lot of them too.
My friend who books some local clubs is inundated with CDs, e mail, faxes,
etc. from jazzers looking for dates. You wouldn't think there were that many
of them but they're out there believe me. The local
alternative/entertainment newspaper lists three and four pages of live music
in a wide variety of venues each week. This includes classical and popular
stuff but jazz is also very well represented. My unscientific gut feeling
is that if anything the jazz community is bigger than ever.
As far as the number of sessions go I think that they are where you find
them. In my area I could go to a jam seven days a week if I wanted to. Some
are open and some are by invitation. Finding out about them is just a
function of staying connected with a bunch of players and networking. That's
part of what makes the phone ring.
Cutting is a funny thing. It happens all over the place. I was leading a
rehearsal a couple of weeks ago with a band of teenagers and as we concluded
I took one of the guys aside to give him some advice on his playing. One of
the other guys intruded with the loud, boisterous comment, "and while you're
at it why don't you try not *sucking*..." Well, everybody laughed including
the victim of this comment. The implication is clear though: if this guy
doesn't get it together we'll find somebody else that will.
Music is a competitive game. I believe this is as it should be.
If I lost a gig to a better player I would understand.
I wouldn't like it but I'd understand. ....joe
--
Visit me on the web. www.JoeFinn.net
> Hey if I met a player who was better than me, worse than me or anywhere
> in between, I'd want to engage him on a friendly basis!
>
> But then maybe I'm just a slow learner.
Tim Berens
<markkl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Some time ago I was at a jam session which had a couple of younger players
>joining in with some of the 40-something pros. Everything was congenial
>and so forth, but some of the older players seemed like they were going out
>of their way to play at the very top of their games- almost out for blood,
>it seemed. Not that these guys should have necessarily held back, but I
>know one school of thought says jams should be supportive and nurturing and
>another says that younger players could do well by a taste of reality (and
>a swift kick in the ass). Well, the youngsters got their butts kicked, but
>it seemed like one of the younger players got very frustrated and discouraged
>by the whole affair. I’ve seen this individual perform in other situations
>and he has an incredible talent, but his tender nature couldn’t stand up
>to the cutting session. I could never resolve whether this experience might
>help him or hurt him in the long run. I don’t know if any of the older players
>ever even gave it a second thought.
>
Mark:
It seems to me that it is never reasonable to deliberately humiliate
young players. But the whole issue of how to handle less-experienced
players is one that guys who gig a lot must deal with all the time.
I play two nights a week at a jazz club in my home town, and we
regularly get players who just show up with their instruments. (The
gig is not an open jam session.) With a few spectacular exceptions,
they are almost always moderately experienced players at best. I
deliberately am not using the word "younger", because age and skill
are not directly correlated. There are strong, young players and
weak, old players.
I believe in encouraging players to keep practicing, but I'm not one
of those guys who says "Sounds great!" to everybody with a trumpet and
enough balls to walk up onto the stage. If a guy sounds great, I'll
tell him. If a guy sounds bad, I'll just say nothing.
I learned many years ago to never trust a compliment from someone who
is promiscuous with their compliments, and I decided long ago to be
one of those who passes out compliments only when they are deserved.
As for the cutting session, my guess is that it helps more than it
hurts an inexperienced player. I know that the times I learn the
most are when I am the weakest player on the stage. Playing with
players who are stronger than me lifts my playing to a new level. I
would absolutely love to get into a "cutting session" with Joey
DeFrancesco, Arturo Sandoval, Christian Macbride and Brian Blade. I
would get my butt kicked, but I know it would be an incredibly
thrilling butt kicking.
Tim
http://timberens.com
A Website for Guitarists
Learn something...Have some fun
Joe Finn
> I know that I use to be able to go to damn near any little town and
> find jazz played in a number of cocktail bars and supper clubs, rock in
> many bars and pop/country/blues in a few others. Now I'm lucky to find
> one of each on the weekend. And during the week--nothing at all.
> That's what I use to form my opinion.
Another anecdote.
I was in touch with a pianist who books a local joint about a year and a
half ago. It's basically a dining room gig but they have jazz five and six
times a week. On Fridays, Saturdays and sometimes Sundays they have a solo
guitarist at 5 or 6pm followed by a piano duo or trio from 8 to midnight.
The guy has been in touch with me but only because of last minute
cancellations and I have been unable to cover any of these as of yet. I tell
him that I'd like to play the room and that perhaps we should proceed in a
more planfull fashion but so far nothing. The guy is literally swamped with
players. Since I'm booked solid I haven't pursued it. ....joe
--
Lawson Stone
mus...@adelphia.net wrote on 6/4/02 7:07 PM:
>
> Barney Kessel's story of Charlie Christian isn't one centering around
> Christian brutalizing him--it's a story of support and sharing. I
> think that's the best way to teach anybody anything, bird-dogs asode
>
> When you get bawled out for screwing up, by a supportive and
> instructional boss, in the case above with Jimmy Smith, it's not the
> same thing as the local gurus running you off the stand to make
> themselves feel larger than others. And even with such as Smith, I
> don't know that another method wouldn't have worked better.
>
I agree with this. My own recent (limited) experience finally getting into
jam sessions has been possible because the musicians were very welcoming and
supportive. I found out last night (I should have known) that the restaurant
actually hires the pianist, bassist, and drummer, and they are union guys.
They anchor the session and set a standard. But they are also really decent,
positive folks and I haven't, in 4 sessions, seen anybody turned away or
treated badly. A few players have sat in, realized they were in over their
heads, and left, but nearly always somebody has talked to them and made it
clear that they're welcome to come back and try again when they think
they're ready.
This crazy little jam session in a small Kentucky town is starting to draw a
lot of musicians out of the woodwork, and I think it's the combination of a
core of good players and a great attitude.
I have certainly gained a lot from being allowed to sit in with these guys,
and they've very good-naturedly pushed me to solo, and when I've blown it,
their response has been "Hey that has happened ot all of us, shake it off
and go on."
For a hobby player, it doesn't get any better than this.
************************************************************************
"Not bad, not bad at all," Diotallevi said, "To arrive at the truth through
the painstaking reconstruction of a false text."
************************************************************************
Lawson Stone--Professor of Old Testament, Asbury Theological Seminary
Let's talk about: Jazz Guitar, Cowboy Action Shooting, Horses,the Bible
http://home1.gte.net/res09tg3/index.htm
Bob Russell
mus...@adelphia.net wrote on 6/5/02 11:52 AM:
>> Your other point is wrong too. There is not a reduced community of
>> jazz players, there is an ever increasing community of jazz players.
>
> With grade schools and high schools discarding music classes for years,
> and colleges ditching all variety of arts programs for a bigger
> business school, colleges in general charging 3 to 5 times what they
> did a scant 15 years ago, I'm very surprised by your statement. Can you
> cite information supporting this fact?
>
>> There are thousands more players today than ever in the past coming
>> out of cushy college programs and thinking the world owes them a gig.
>
> Can you cite any information supporting this opinion?
>
> I know that I use to be able to go to damn near any little town and
> find jazz played in a number of cocktail bars and supper clubs, rock in
> many bars and pop/country/blues in a few others. Now I'm lucky to find
> one of each on the weekend. And during the week--nothing at all.
> That's what I use to form my opinion.
Joe didn't say that jazz gigs were more numerous; he said that players were
more numerous. And I think he's right about the player pool. Most major
liberal-arts universities these days have some sort of jazz instruction
available. Even in my home backwater, every high school has a jazz band,
even a middle school or two. We can quibble over the quality of the players
coming out of the educational system, for sure, but the discussion's about
quantity. I can't cite national statistics (has anybody but us decided that
the number of jazz musicians in America would be worth knowing?), but I can
say without a doubt that there are many more people playing jazz in my area
than ever before. I have no reason to think that my area represents an
anomaly.
Unfortunately, the demand for jazz seems to be lagging way behind the supply
of players; you're correct, I think, in observing that it's getting harder
and harder to find viable jazz gigs.
-- Bob Russell
http://www.bobrussellguitar.com
Lawson Stone
jazzerw...@yahoo.com wrote on 6/5/02 8:45 AM:
> I hear the words "getting ass-kicked" frequently these days, but I don't
> take it literally. When I play with players who play head and shoulders over
> me and I don't measure up (at least to my own ear), I call that an
> ass-kicking. It triggers the woodshed reflex. Maybe the principle is if you
> kick your own ass when out-played, others will leave your ass alone.
> Alternately, if you mug and strut while playing puerile stuff and/or missing
> changes, maybe a good ass-kicking is called for.
Just last night at the local jam session, something happened that I think
was pretty nice. We were VERY short on horn players. The tune "There is No
Greater Love" was called, and the pianist smiled at me and said "You gotta
solo tonight; we only have one horn player" and kind of grinned at me like
"this is it buddy."
Okay so I soloed. It was pretty lame, but not awful. Unfortunately, at some
point I got a little lost and missed a change, and suddenly was aware of the
sax player, who had already soloed, slipping a few notes in with me and
somehow he actually saved my solo, bumped me back on track, and I/we
finished it without humiliation (thought not with Coltrane-like daring
creativity!).
When it was over I looked up at him to say thanks, and he just gave me
thumbs up.
I'm beginning to wonder if rural Central Kentucky is such a bad environment
for jazz after all.
Tom Lippincott
> If Joe Henderson had told me I sucked when I was 25 he would have been
>absolutely right, but I would have probably hung it up then and there or at
>least never have become a jazz musician. I had no confidence of any kind in
>my
>ability. I wish he were still alive for me to say thank you for not doing
>that.
>
Though I'm not as radically "against" the cutting session mentality as you, I
HAVE indeed noticed that pretty much every one of my "heroes" that I've had the
opportunity to meet has turned out to be a very kind, humble person. I know
there are/were many great jazzers that are very volatile people (Mingus, Miles,
ect.) but to me, the "cutting session" mentality is a whole different thing
than that.
On the other hand, I have had a few of those "tough love" experiences that I
feel like I learned from. The most notable one was when I sat in with organist
Lonnie Smith. He started out playing several very easy, medium/slow swing
tunes that I'd never heard but were pretty easy to pick up. After the 2nd or
3rd tune he said "I only play EASY music" and launched into Giant Steps at a
blistering tempo. That's a tune I've worked on a lot so I didn't completely
step all over it, but it was pretty nerve wracking nevertheless. My hands were
definitely shaking by the end of my solo! Still, I felt it was all done in
good fun, with just a hint of that "lets see what you've got, kid" but not so
much that it was abusive or anything.
>
>I wonder, do other artists get into these kinds of pissing matches...like, do
>dancers cut each other, and actors and painters and sculptors? Poets? I'm
>not
>being facetious, I really don't know.
from my own limited experience I can give a resounding "yes" with regard to
poets. Most of my life I've written very loose, unstructured "poems" and at
one point was thinking of including a booklet of them with my "Painting" CD.
I'd never really shown any of this stuff to anyone "in the biz" or whatever, so
I tried posting a few things to a poetry comment/criticism newsgroup. To say I
was raked over the coals would be an understatement. Actually, the experience
pretty much "cured" me of any aspirations at writing poetry, and I haven't
really written much of anything since. Someone did email me off list and say
something along the lines of "a lot of these people get off on cutting other
people down; take what they have to say with a big grain of salt." Still, I
think my fragile inner Arthur Rimbaud was mortally wounded from that
experience. I can definitely see a parallel there to some guy who has been
learning an instrument at home for years coming to his first jam session and
being so humiliated that he gives up playing altogether. I've been in the
"house" band at a jam session for about 6 months, and we get a wide variety of
ability and experience levels (mostly toward the lower end of the spectrum). I
usually end up trying to be as nice and as encouraging to people as I can
without becoming patronizing. Whatever else you may want to say about that
subject, being encouraging to people that sit in helps keep them coming back,
thus giving the club more business, which means that you have a better chance
of keeping your gig if you're in the house band. Of course, if you play in the
house band for the jam session at Smalls where people are probably lined up
around the block to sit in, then I guess being snooty isn't as bad for
business.
>
>My thoughts on guitar playing are usurped from Charlie Christian, and maybe
>simplified: If there ain't no money or enjoyment in whuppin it out, it stays
>in
>the case.
>
>There's neither in a cutting session. If I want violence, I'll pick up a
>baseball bat, not a guitar. My one cent 'n pocket lint..
>
>Clif Kuplen
>
Tom Lippincott
Guitarist, Composer, Teacher
audio samples, articles, CD's at:
http://www.tomlippincott.com
Florian Schmidt
>
> Okay so I soloed. It was pretty lame, but not awful. Unfortunately, at
> some point I got a little lost and missed a change, and suddenly was
> aware of the sax player, who had already soloed, slipping a few notes in
> with me and somehow he actually saved my solo, bumped me back on track,
> and I/we finished it without humiliation (thought not with Coltrane-like
> daring creativity!).
>
> When it was over I looked up at him to say thanks, and he just gave me
> thumbs up.
>
> I'm beginning to wonder if rural Central Kentucky is such a bad
> environment for jazz after all.
that reminds me of the horn player who always told me to "turn it up",
since i was comping at pretty low volume, so my bad notes wouldn't be
heard. i told him, and he was understanding. on the next jam i turned it
up a little and people still liked it :) yeah.. somewhere in germany's
rainiest town mustn't be so bad for jazz either..
so these are really jam sessions here no cutting sessions. we would even
let the worst jazz singers ever sing without complaining.. ;) and boy
they are bad.. oh my.. and they sing the whole song one riff without
stopping through the solos in unisono.. argh..
--
florian schmidt
mista.noS...@gmx.noSpam.net (remove "noSpam.")
http://www.arted.biz/mista.tapas
Tom Walls
juru...@aol.com says...
> I wonder, do other artists get into these kinds of pissing matches...like, do
> dancers cut each other, and actors and painters and sculptors? Poets? I'm not
> being facetious, I really don't know.
>
Yes, they do. I can think of instances of all of the above. Tap dancers,
of course, used to have cutting sessions. I'll bet they still do.
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
http://www.arts.cornell.edu/zeus/
Thom_j.
so good secondary schools grinding out quite a lot of jazz players.
It certainly never seemed like this in the 40s, 50s, 60s, & maybe 70s.
jmho & 2c tom_j.
Max Leggett
>>dancers cut each other, and actors and painters and sculptors? Poets? I'm
>>not
>>being facetious, I really don't know.
>
>from my own limited experience I can give a resounding "yes" with regard to
>poets.
Poets are nothing less than viscious. Ripping out another poet's
metaphoric gizzards is but a moment's work. There's no hard science to
poetry, so any opinion can be supported or ripped to shreds. The
prevailing critical thinking seems to be that a good offence is the
best defence. Guitarists in full flame mode are sweetness and light by
comparison.
Andrew F
> There are thousands more players today than ever in the past coming
> out of cushy college programs and thinking the world owes them a gig.
> If anything, there is a reduced community of consumers...
>
Whoa!
Nuff said!!!
Thom_j.
& in my younger years, we never had jam sessions that were out to
"kick anyone's azz."
I guess I'm a bit old or just never was around this atmosphere but I
spent many a night in the 70-80s down in the village with some high
profile guitar players... We jammed like crazy but it was fun for me
& as another said: "a great learning experience" when I jammed!
One night Eric Clapton [yup E.C. himself] popped in about 1-am.
I was lucky enough to jam with him, & for me it was like having a
personal lesson from this fantastic guitarist' plus we had a blast &
did I ever learn a lot within those 2+hrs. I'll never forget it either :)
So for me I have always had great jam sessions or at the worse a
lot of fun jamming... {Anyway I thought I'd share & reminiss.}
cheers all, thom_j.
"Mark Guest" <jazzerw...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:adl0t0$1vr3$1...@ID-100641.news.dfncis.de...
Nazodesu
wrote:
> "Nazodesu" <mus...@adelphia.net> wrote
> >
> > Just my views, clearly. "Cutting sessions" have gone on for years, but
> > so have gang-bangs. I honestly think, though, that with the reduced
> > community of jazz players in the world that such are diminished
> > generally. I use to wander into jam sessions in years past and it was
> > obvious how much animosity there was. I haven't seen such things in a
> > long time. But then there don't seem to be as many as there were 20
> > years ago.
> >
>
> There are a lot more young players that you may realize. Since I have gotten
> involved with the local school jazz band scene here in upstate NY I have
> been pleasantly surprised to find that almost all the high schools and many
> of the middle schools have stage band programs. This is where I got a lot of
> the students for my improvisation clinics. These are the feeder programs
> that will be sending the young players to college and into the ranks. There
> are a whole lot of them too.
That's encouraging indeed. I assume since there are fewer and fewer
paying gigs in bars/restaurants/hotels, et al (surely you won't quibble
with that?), that many of these same kids wind up being life-long
players, just not professionally--as are many in this group.
> My friend who books some local clubs is inundated with CDs, e mail, faxes,
> etc. from jazzers looking for dates. You wouldn't think there were that many
> of them but they're out there believe me. The local
> alternative/entertainment newspaper lists three and four pages of live music
> in a wide variety of venues each week. This includes classical and popular
> stuff but jazz is also very well represented. My unscientific gut feeling
> is that if anything the jazz community is bigger than ever.
Once again I'm surprsied. In Orange County/Los Angeles I've looked at
the local music listings for over 10 years and seen them continuously
diminish. I know it's a time honored tradition for jazz joints to come
in and go out of business, but mostly it seems they are staying out.
And all the little happy-hours with a trio or a solo with a computer or
nothing at all. Again, my geographical vantage point.
> As far as the number of sessions go I think that they are where you find
> them. In my area I could go to a jam seven days a week if I wanted to.
Surely we're not considering that typical?
> Some
> are open and some are by invitation. Finding out about them is just a
> function of staying connected with a bunch of players and networking. That's
> part of what makes the phone ring.
>
> Cutting is a funny thing. It happens all over the place. I was leading a
> rehearsal a couple of weeks ago with a band of teenagers and as we concluded
> I took one of the guys aside to give him some advice on his playing. One of
> the other guys intruded with the loud, boisterous comment, "and while you're
> at it why don't you try not *sucking*..." Well, everybody laughed including
> the victim of this comment. The implication is clear though: if this guy
> doesn't get it together we'll find somebody else that will.
>
> Music is a competitive game. I believe this is as it should be.
I wholeheartedly disagree in every way. Music is not a game and it's
not inherently competitive. Commerce is competitive and some people
can't separate the two. Certainly you can work to make an audience or
an employer like whatever you're doing better than whatever somebody
else is doing. But that's about personal attitude, about keeping a gig
secure, about making money. That's not what music is.
> If I lost a gig to a better player I would understand.
I would too. I'd also understand losing to a worse player with a
bigger fan-base, a relative as the band leader, or a locked-in gig
situation associated with his name. None of which has anything to do
with music.
Understanding isn't my difficulty; I understand it all too well.
Nazodesu
<bobrus...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Unfortunately, the demand for jazz seems to be lagging way behind the supply
> of players; you're correct, I think, in observing that it's getting harder
> and harder to find viable jazz gigs.
Somebody once said that jazz would eventually go the way of
poetry--everybody writes in but nobody reads it.
Nazodesu
industry, clubs are booming, etc. I guess I went blind somewhere along
the line....
Thom_j.
problems with jam sessions & I've been in a few. I wonder if you just
hit on something I never thought of until now via this thread?
"Union Musicians?" I have always been in the Musicians Union and I
learned a "kinda` music'etiquette" or manners that seems to go along
with just about all the folks I have sat-in with, played weekends with,
or just jammed with? Are most on 'Rmmgj' in the Musicain's Union?
just curious.. a nosey thom_j. :)
thomas
> Would you believe--during my residency anesthesia rotation, I saw the same kind
> of butt-kickin' attitude in an operating room between attendings and residents (and
> even once between attendings).
> I'll leave it to others to ponder whether this is a good thing.
Man, I wouldn't want to be the patient being cut at that kind
of cutting session.
Thom_j.
Adam Bravo
> Once again I'm surprsied. In Orange County/Los Angeles I've looked at
> the local music listings for over 10 years and seen them continuously
> diminish. I know it's a time honored tradition for jazz joints to come
> in and go out of business, but mostly it seems they are staying out.
> And all the little happy-hours with a trio or a solo with a computer or
> nothing at all. Again, my geographical vantage point.
Well, the school bands around there are very active. You can probably get
information from the SCSBOA (Southern California School Band and Orchestra
Association). There are plenty of very fine high school musicians that I've
played with.
Nazodesu
<mra...@cox.net> wrote:
> > Once again I'm surprised. In Orange County/Los Angeles I've looked at
> > the local music listings for over 10 years and seen them continuously
> > diminish. I know it's a time honored tradition for jazz joints to come
> > in and go out of business, but mostly it seems they are staying out.
> > And all the little happy-hours with a trio are a solo with a computer or
> > nothing at all. Again, my geographical vantage point.
>
> Well, the school bands around there are very active. You can probably get
> information from the SCSBOA (Southern California School Band and Orchestra
> Association). There are plenty of very fine high school musicians that I've
> played with.
As we ramble freely off topic, I'm not saying there aren't good
musicians in OC at the high-school level.
I only said that looking at the clubs listed in the local rags they
have dropped pretty dramatically, for all kinds of live music, since
1990 when I moved here. There use to be 3 or 4 places on Balboa to
hear--not just music--but live jazz. Now there are none that I know
of.
Paul Craven
football.
Music shouldn't have to be a contact sport.
JMK
(snip)
> Alternately, if you mug and strut while playing
> puerile stuff and/or missing changes, maybe a good ass-kicking is
> called for.
>
Oops. I was hoping you didn't notice the mugging and strutting.
It's the only way I can cover up the rampant missing of changes :)
James
droid
> Some time ago I was at a jam session which had a couple of younger players
> joining in with some of the 40-something pros. Everything was congenial
> and so forth, but some of the older players seemed like they were going out
> of their way to play at the very top of their games- almost out for blood,
> it seemed. Not that these guys should have necessarily held back, but I
> know one school of thought says jams should be supportive and nurturing and
> another says that younger players could do well by a taste of reality (and
> a swift kick in the ass). Well, the youngsters got their butts kicked, but
> it seemed like one of the younger players got very frustrated and discouraged
> and he has an incredible talent, but his tender nature couldn’t stand up
> to the cutting session. I could never resolve whether this experience might
> ever even gave it a second thought.
Came to this newsgroup today due to a long-standing interest in, "jazz
guitar." I have done my be-bop and swing thing, decades ago, and still
do this in my own way as my ears have a need to hear it. I don't
pretend to be a, "jazz player," because to be honest, the thought of
rotating around a pool of, "standards," would bore me to tears. To be
amidst a group of players, and have a guy call out x tune in y key,
makes as much sense to me as me calling out one of my originals. Fuck
the guy who would try to cut. I much prefer to have him absolutely
speechless as I unwind something I came up with that he is not privy
to. Let the cutter be a part of the audience, and do your own special
thing. I don't care what a, "jazz player," would think of this post. I
am a musician first, an innovator second, and a jazz player much
further down the line. In fact, I would go so far as to state that I
have taken what I want from jazz, and left it to its own fate. That's
my take, and I'm sticking to it.
droid
fine tune my sentiments.
So many, "jazz guitarists," spend so damn much time emulating. Let me
be BLUNT. There is not that much to some of the trains of thought.
That they have been appropriated and extended by so many is a given.
To spend so much time on the myriad of givens explains WHY there is a
diminished audience for, "jazz."
Cutting to the chase:
IF those interested in JAZZ would take their own life experiences,
their own muses, and WRITE, they would be able to contribute LIFE to
the idiom, instead of rotating around and around on what others have
done. Yes, as absurd as it may seem, it is the simple things that so
many miss. WRITE. Your own stories. Your own melodies. SING. Yep.
Learn to SING. MAKE yourself learn to sing. DO Your OWN Thing. Build
your instrumental constructs AROUND the songs/VOCALS you come up with.
It is that simple. Wake the fuck up.
Flame on. I'm outa' here. To create. Bye.
Joe Finn
>
> That's encouraging indeed. I assume since there are fewer and fewer
> paying gigs in bars/restaurants/hotels, et al (surely you won't quibble
> with that?), that many of these same kids wind up being life-long
> players, just not professionally--as are many in this group.
It depends. As a professional musician I make it my business to go out and
get the gigs. I performed almost 200 "services" last year and I've done
about 100 so far this year so I'm right on schedule. The gigs are there if
you seek them out.
> Once again I'm surprsied. In Orange County/Los Angeles I've looked at
> the local music listings for over 10 years and seen them continuously
> diminish. I know it's a time honored tradition for jazz joints to come
> in and go out of business, but mostly it seems they are staying out.
> And all the little happy-hours with a trio or a solo with a computer or
> nothing at all. Again, my geographical vantage point.
>
Sorry to hear it.
> > As far as the number of sessions go I think that they are where you find
> > them. In my area I could go to a jam seven days a week if I wanted to.
>
> Surely we're not considering that typical?
>
From having been connected to the scene over many years my experience has
been that this is pretty typical. I started going to garage band jam
sessions when I was about 12 years old. The guys that are really into it
want to play. We are highly motivated. We tend to seek each other out.
>
> I wholeheartedly disagree in every way. Music is not a game and it's
> not inherently competitive. Commerce is competitive and some people
> can't separate the two. Certainly you can work to make an audience or
> an employer like whatever you're doing better than whatever somebody
> else is doing. But that's about personal attitude, about keeping a gig
> secure, about making money. That's not what music is.
>
I know it's not a game. Tennis is a game. That was a figure a speech. Music
is a performing art, but I tend to see a lot of overlap with what you refer
to as commerce.
The competition comes about in various ways. The audition process for
instance is competition in a pure sense. If you and I need to hire a drummer
for our band we may audition several candidates before hiring anyone. What
will our decision be based on? The gig won't go to the friendliest, or the
most outgoing, or my wife's cousin's whatever. The best drummer should
properly get the job.
What if your band has a better sax player than my band? What if we play the
same room on consecutive weeks and you sell more tickets and in general do
more business than me? It's only logical that you would be back on the
schedule ahead of me under the circumstances.
What if Concord Records can only sign one new artist next year? Who will it
be? Lots of guys would love to have such an opportunity but only one can
have it this time. There is keen competition for opportunities like this.
This is the nature of the business. .......joe
Visit me on the web. www.JoeFinn.net
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
Jay Vyas
(i.e, a winner and a loser) of a cutting session. I'm not sure I'd
enjoy it if it was the only musical situation I could find. Although
music overall is not a competition nor should it be, IMHO, there are
competitive aspects to it at various times in a player's development
that are helpful, again IMHO.
When I was younger, my friends and I were qite competitive about who
could learn the tough Zeppelin riff first, etc. Then, someone from
another school came to our middle school who could play anything (it
seemed). So, we practiced harder to not be embarassed at jam
sessions. That competitiveness got us to be better players (or at
least developed our chops faster) that we would have been otherwise.
Depending on how it's handled I think getting "cut" by better players
is OK, part of musical tradition, and something many of us might look
back on with a strange fondness. If it was done with a huge dose of
mean-ness, well, then that is perhaps on the fringes of the tradition
rather than at the heart of it.
There are people who are by nature not competitive, and it seems that
avoiding cutting sessions and seeking out friendlier sessions would
make more sense. Nothing wrong with that. We have both kinds (at
least in the blues arena) that I've experienced in the San Francisco
area, and I watched plenty of good natured cutting sessions when I
lived in Boston (I was not nearly good enough to give it a go!).
Lazzerini
understand and sympathise with, but it's tough getting past the vacuous
posturing and ignorant bravado of these droid posts.
Sounds like wankfroth to me.
LAZZ
Tom Walls
says...
I think you put your finger on it, LAZZ. Don't forget to wash that
finger.
Mark Guest
lol!
Come out this Fri...it should be fun.
--
Mark Guest
JazzerWB at JahWho dot com
"JMK" <jkai...@getthisouttahere.bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:r1AL8.32505$_p6.5...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com...
Mark Guest
Great cuts!
--
Mark Guest
JazzerWB at JahWho dot com
"Tom Walls" <tw...@REMOVEcornell.edu> wrote in message
news:MPG.17691e47...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu...
Sideways Jaye
as you, I
HAVE indeed noticed that pretty much every one of my "heroes" that
I've had the
opportunity to meet has turned out to be a very kind, humble person"
Tom Lippincott nails it here as far as I'm concerned. Certainly you
could argue for the tradition of the cutting session and the positive
motivational results all day. Anyway you slice it, as an experienced
player you have the choice to be kind or a prick, humble or
self-aggrandizing as you go about playing with/competing
with/inspiring other players. The choice is yours. How do you want
to be remembered?
The point has been made that Russell Malone's story (along with the
Charlie Parker gong story, the one that "always" comes up with this
topic) involved his own cockiness - he sort of asked to be taken down
a peg.
When I'm playing with someone better and struggling to keep up, I know
I'm getting my ass kicked, I don't need anybody to point it out to me
and I'm not any less motivated to improve if nobody else points out
that I'm not keeping up. Therefore, when I'm on the other side of the
coin, I'm pretty tuned into how the other guy is feeling. One way or
another, the bottom line goal should be to make good music rather than
just to show off.
Bob Russell
la...@telus.net wrote on 6/6/02 3:21 AM:
Ditto. There's some truth in some of what he says, but it's largely drowned
out by the juvenile self-importance. Another "True Creator" steps in for
long enough to "enlighten" the rest of us. Yawn. Then there's the "you can
say what you want now; I'm gone" angle. Yawn again. Maybe this one'll
actually be gone; most of the other True Creators haven't been able to
resist further comment.
-- Bob Russell
http://www.bobrussellguitar.com
Max Leggett
Nazodesu
<dr...@fiberia.com> wrote:
I have say I don't like your semi-arrogant, "you stupid jazz players"
attitude here. Your previous post, "I took from jazz what interested
me and left it to it's own fate", I thought wholly generic and vague.
We all take from everything as suits us and leave everything to it's
own fate. You didn't discover a cure for cancer or anything.
On the other hand I have to admit the substance of your view here, sans
bile, is worthy of consideration:
> IF those interested in JAZZ would take their own life experiences,
> their own muses, and WRITE, they would be able to contribute LIFE to
> the idiom, instead of rotating around and around on what others have
> done.
The general instructional method for jazz players is not really towards
innovation. As with much Japanese art forms, it's about producing a
nuance of personal vision WITHIN a pretty rigid framework. Some think
working inside such a framework (2 hours for a movie, iambic
pentameter, even temperament, 8 bar phrases, etc.) is a ball and chain.
That's the theory. On the other hand I find they usually re-define a
new ball and chain in some nuanced personal way. I guess I find that
kind of obvious, and those who are working at the finer point within
the form are working to more exacting demands.
Thus every music-school newbie feels compelled to "break out" of the
norm by working in myriad time-signatures, tone rows and so on, when
they really aren't capable of creating a convincing simple melody. But
they see the larger more obvious things as the place to paint a target.
Mostly they can see the more refined elements and how critical they
are.
In any case as jazz players are taught we must play the blues, 100-200
jazz standards, Giant Steps, etc. Is all this valuable? Sure, to
being someone who can be "tested" by aping all this in a "cutting
session". I hate Giant Steps and Take Five; always have and not because
I can't play them. I worked hard to learn them so I could play them
because you *have to* as a jazz guy or be run off the stand. That's my
only reason. Neither tune has the slightest personal interest for me.
I can't really relax and throw all my "life" at them. And you know I
really could have used that time and energy in life for something more
useful. Like working at creating a personal vision.
Writing your own tunes and getting them played at a session is
impossible, of course, unless the tune is simple and you know all the
guys. Mostly that can't be done in that environment.
> Yes, as absurd as it may seem, it is the simple things that so
> many miss. WRITE. Your own stories. Your own melodies. SING. Yep.
> Learn to SING. MAKE yourself learn to sing. DO Your OWN Thing. Build
> your instrumental constructs AROUND the songs/VOCALS you come up with.
All great ideas if your intent is to be a good composer. But if your
intent is to be a team player, within a team environment, and you're
supposed to play a certain "position" in a select series of styles and
techniques then you have to learn all that stuff. That's really what a
jazz player does. He's practically more a tradesman.
Theoretically you can then discard it and "become yourself". But at
what point did the "becoming" part ever evidence itself as a criteria
of judgement? During sessions? Doubtful. And that "self becoming" is
a lot tougher than transcribing solos or learning to navigate difficult
songs or memorizing anything at all.
Within a very narrow range we are encouraged to be original, but to
"build on" our predecessors, etc. A lot more people can more easily
re-assemble the ideas of others. Like me.
> It is that simple. Wake the fuck up.
> Flame on. I'm outa' here. To create. Bye.
Well you can state your viewpoint or you can piss on everybody's shoes.
I'm not sure why you feel the need to take the second approach if you
have something to say. Why the shrill tone here. Is somebody getting
in your way?
Nazodesu
wrote:
> I know it's not a game. Tennis is a game. That was a figure a speech. Music
> is a performing art, but I tend to see a lot of overlap with what you refer
> to as commerce.
>
> The competition comes about in various ways. The audition process for
> instance is competition in a pure sense.
True:
> If you and I need to hire a drummer
> for our band we may audition several candidates before hiring anyone. What
> will our decision be based on? The gig won't go to the friendliest, or the
> most outgoing, or my wife's cousin's whatever. The best drummer should
> properly get the job.
I've been on both sides of the best drummer not getting the gig. We
almost always hired bass players with a van or PA when I was a kid. Of
course they all sucked, relatively speaking. Provided the players are
all of loosely the same ability the edge will go to these other
aspects. But as long as we're discussing the valid aspects of
competition, in a commerce setting of procuring a job, I have to agree
it is competitive.
> What if your band has a better sax player than my band? What if we play the
> same room on consecutive weeks and you sell more tickets and in general do
> more business than me? It's only logical that you would be back on the
> schedule ahead of me under the circumstances.
Certainly. All these criteria are commerce. As a professional
musician you HAVE to think about such matters. The degree to which
these matters take higher priority or lesser priority is everyone's own
call. But I don't find any correllary of talent, art or chops in this
calculation. There's always these lousy players that have a forever
gig in clubs and hotels because they can hustle them. Forget ability.
In any case I don't think we disagree on any point of substance. I'm
just blabbering on.
> What if Concord Records can only sign one new artist next year? Who will it
> be? Lots of guys would love to have such an opportunity but only one can
> have it this time. There is keen competition for opportunities like this.
> This is the nature of the business.
I'm not in the business any more and as such I see the ways in which
the art is sacrificed constantly for the business. But then that's my
vantage point.
Max Leggett
clips, I note] there's also the fact of all the wonderfully inventive
musicians on this list. Kleinhart, Lippincott, Van Sant, Bruno, Jordan
- my apologies to all the people I missed, but there are so many. So
what the sap is really saying is, "I have no idea what kind of music
you're playing or attempting to play, but I'm going to strut and preen
as though I'm a somebody." Another know-all blowhard on usenet. As Bob
says, Yawn.
Nazodesu
<mleg...@NOSPAMsprint.ca> wrote:
> Apart from the guy's sneering condescension [not backed up with sound
> clips, I note] there's also the fact of all the wonderfully inventive
> musicians on this list. Kleinhart, Lippincott, Van Sant, Bruno, Jordan
> - my apologies to all the people I missed, but there are so many. So
> what the sap is really saying is, "I have no idea what kind of music
> you're playing or attempting to play, but I'm going to strut and preen
> as though I'm a somebody." Another know-all blowhard on usenet. As Bob
> says, Yawn.
On the other hand all the guys you mention sound the same, are doing
the same thing, in the same way, genrally speaking. You just have to
listen to it with the right "one-size-fits-all" ears, to hear it that
way.
David C. Stephens
How can you say Kleinhaut, Bruno and Jordan "sound the same, are doing the
same thing"? They're not at all alike. I don't think that you've listened to
them.
Dave
Max Leggett
wrote:
If yiou think Lippincott's Paint The Slow Train Brown sounds the samne
as Kleinhart's Chasing Tales, then you have some auditory problems you
should address.
Thom_j.
and again my man Max is on the prowl.. hahaha :)
"Max Leggett" <mleg...@NOSPAMsprint.ca> wrote in message
news:3cff8d86....@news.sprint.ca...
> Got any sound clips, droid-boy?
>
>
> On 5 Jun 2002 20:29:28 -0700, dr...@fiberia.com (droid) wrote:
>
> >As an aside to my original, "contribution," to this post, I'm going to
> >fine tune my sentiments.
<snipped for obvious reasons>
Tom Walls
Max Leggett
wrote:
Sure, man. Using the heretofore referenced "one-size-fits-all" ears,
Brahms is indistinguishable from Beethoven, and Kenny G sounds like
John Coltrane.
Jon Fox
I was wondering if you (or anyone else) would mind sharing your strategy for
going out and getting gigs. (?) I know that many on this group are
full-time working musicians, and I think that hearing how others go about
the process would be quite beneficial to those of us constantly looking for
work.
Jon Fox
"Joe Finn" <J...@joefinn.net> wrote in message
news:3cfee...@corp.newsgroups.com...
Lawson Stone
la...@telus.net wrote on 6/6/02 3:21 AM:
> I think that hidden in there somewhere may be some sentiments I can
huh?
Just went Ponty on me
************************************************************************
"Not bad, not bad at all," Diotallevi said, "To arrive at the truth through
the painstaking reconstruction of a false text."
************************************************************************
Lawson Stone--Professor of Old Testament, Asbury Theological Seminary
Let's talk about: Jazz Guitar, Cowboy Action Shooting, Horses,the Bible
http://home1.gte.net/res09tg3/index.htm
Bob Russell
mus...@adelphia.net wrote on 6/6/02 3:18 PM:
> On the other hand all the guys you mention sound the same, are doing
> the same thing, in the same way, genrally speaking. You just have to
> listen to it with the right "one-size-fits-all" ears, to hear it that
> way.
Sure, if you have "one-size-fits-all" ears, then Joe Oliver sounds just like
Woody Shaw! But I'm not afflicted with "one-size-fits-all" ears, and I know
that Tom Lippincott isn't "doing the same thing" and doesn't sound the same
as Mark Kleinhaut, and I don't really give a damn about the musical opinions
of anybody who has "one-size-fits-all" ears.
Thom_j.
yourself in-on-at every place you can concieve of.. it works!
"Jon Fox" <jon...@colorado.edu> wrote in message
news:adojbc$l88$1...@peabody.colorado.edu...
Nazodesu
<bobrus...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > On the other hand all the guys you mention sound the same, are doing
> > the same thing, in the same way, generally speaking. You just have to
> > listen to it with the right "one-size-fits-all" ears, to hear it that
> > way.
>
> Sure, if you have "one-size-fits-all" ears, then Joe Oliver sounds just like
> Woody Shaw!
Finally SOMEBODY got the punch line! Better said: A wink is the same
as a nod to a blind horse.
Honestly though. If you really don't get it, I mean REALLY don't get
it, then "Kleinhart, Lippincott, Van Sant, Bruno, Jordan" all sound the
same to you--confusing. That's a very coarse perspective. But maybe
not to somebody who grew up on death metal where Led Zeppelin was
"roots".
And hell, I can play samba, son montuno and ranchera and
instrumentation aside they all sound the same to some jazz musicians...
Charlie Robinson
instrumentation aside they all sound the same to some jazz musicia >>
There is no one who sounds like Cowboy Copas.
Charlie Robinson Jazz Guitarist, Composer
You can hear me online at: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/robinsonchazz
or: <A HREF="http://rmmgj.iuma.com">http://rmmgj.iuma.com</A>
Jurupari
probably that would best be done anonymously as well - remember to wipe!
Joe Finn
>
> Certainly. All these criteria are commerce. As a professional
> musician you HAVE to think about such matters. The degree to which
> these matters take higher priority or lesser priority is everyone's own
> call. But I don't find any correllary of talent, art or chops in this
> calculation.
Just think about when you played in the 7th grade band. Who got to play
first chair?
The best player should have gotten the nod. Best tone. Best reader. Best
intonation. Superior ability to play time. Best dynamics. No commercial
consideration is present. The standards are clearly quantifiable.
As you go down the road a little further you are talking about things like
nuance, subtlety, sophistication, the ability to make a convincing or even
innovative stylistic statement, technical mastery, and superior interpretive
abilities. These are the sorts of things that make the better players the
better players. These are the abilities that players spend their lives
developing and they correlate directly with the opportunities that come
their way career wise.
The cream rises to the top.
Certain auditions are sometimes held with the player behind a screen. In
this way only the music is judged with no consideration as to the age, sex
or race of the player. The competitive aspects of this endeavor have always
been pretty clear to me as have the standards by which the music is to be
judged. It's the survival of the fittest.
In jazz this competition manifests itself in the cutting session. I'll tell
you the truth: when I'm at a session like this and I see someone I don't
recognize make the scene I breathe a little easier when I see he's carrying
something other than a guitar case. 8-) .....joe
Joe Finn
>
> I was wondering if you (or anyone else) would mind sharing your strategy
for
> going out and getting gigs. (?) I know that many on this group are
> full-time working musicians, and I think that hearing how others go about
> the process would be quite beneficial to those of us constantly looking
for
> work.
A lot of the work I do is as a sideman. I have established myself with
several band leaders and they continue to call me with dates. When a new
leader calls me it is based on word of mouth, my reputation and my ability
to get the job done. As a union member I get a certain number of calls as
well. I see union membership as another good opportunity to connect with
more players. And all they ever talk about is gigs.
If you want to get calls like this stay connected with your local scene as
much as possible. Network with the other players. Go to jam sessions,
rehearsals and sit in when you can. Maintain a high profile in terms of your
availability. Establish and maintain a good reputation as a conscientious
professional. Be punctual. Try to be a good team player.
As a leader the dates I play are in a dozen or so rooms where I have managed
to establish myself with the audience and the owners/managers. A lot of
times you'll play a date under someone else's leadership and eventually be
invited to do a date with your own group. Sometimes you'll be asked to play
for the door or on "open mic" night. You'll have to decide for yourself how
important this is. I don't do much of this but it can help you get your foot
in the door.
Promotional materials like CDs are helpful. Recordings will get you reviews,
airplay and interviews. These will open doors but you'll need to be willing
to follow up on the phone and even better in person with whoever is doing
the hiring. My website has been a big help in terms of getting work. Some
people are very net driven in their thinking.
My basic strategy is to keep a lot of lines in the water.
Like my attorney Bernie says, "You win a few, you lose a few. You keep on
hangin' tough." ..........joe
D.Stearns
really well or really bad (not much for middle ground). But on the overall
I've never liked the music as a contest, or boot camp, mentality... I dunno,
it just seems so uncool and uptight to me.
Anyway, as far as jazz cutting contests go, I think you've got to go against
history... and if there are any guitarists here (or anywhere else for that
matter) that think they could cut Art Tatum, well then they definitely
should be in cutting contest! But everybody else I'm suspicious of.
I think it's one thing to be confident in your art and your aesthetics; to
me that's like being content in your talent and what it is that you're
trying to say... but it seems to me quite another thing to be in a position
where you feel you've got to prove your worth by the might of what you
know... it's just the sort of thing that usually (though definitely not
always) makes me kind of hate music and musicians all the more so.
If it's all in good fun what the hell's the harm... I mean it is sort of a
thrill, well a cheap thrill anyway, to see everybody all hyped to strut
their stuff. But when it's too close to what's at the core of a person's
thing, then I think it's generally a pretty pity commentary on those
individuals' character--unless they're cutting Tatum of course, then all
bets are off!
take care,
--Dan Stearns
"Mark Kleinhaut" <markkl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3cfb...@spamkiller.newsgroups.com...
>
> Some time ago I was at a jam session which had a couple of younger players
> joining in with some of the 40-something pros. Everything was congenial
> and so forth, but some of the older players seemed like they were going
out
> of their way to play at the very top of their games- almost out for blood,
> it seemed. Not that these guys should have necessarily held back, but I
> know one school of thought says jams should be supportive and nurturing
and
> another says that younger players could do well by a taste of reality (and
> a swift kick in the ass). Well, the youngsters got their butts kicked, but
> it seemed like one of the younger players got very frustrated and
discouraged
> by the whole affair. I’ve seen this individual perform in other
situations
> and he has an incredible talent, but his tender nature couldn’t stand up
> to the cutting session. I could never resolve whether this experience
might
> help him or hurt him in the long run. I don’t know if any of the older
players
> ever even gave it a second thought.
>
> --------------------Mark Kleinhaut
> markkl...@hotmail.com
>
> Info and soundclips about:
> "Chasing Tales":
> http://www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Chasing%20Tales.html
>
> "Amphora":
> http://www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Amphora.html
>
> "Secrets of Three":
http://www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/SO3.html
>
>
>
Lazzerini
Nazodesu
wrote:
> > Certainly. All these criteria are commerce. As a professional
> > musician you HAVE to think about such matters. The degree to which
> > these matters take higher priority or lesser priority is everyone's own
> > call. But I don't find any correllary of talent, art or chops in this
> > calculation.
>
> Just think about when you played in the 7th grade band. Who got to play
> first chair?
I'm not sure where you're going, bro. First chair went to Mr. Asskiss.
He not only played as good as the best (I supposed--I didn't have the
ears to discern), but he was real good at filing charts, and making
copoies.
> The best player should have gotten the nod. Best tone. Best reader. Best
> intonation. Superior ability to play time. Best dynamics. No commercial
> consideration is present. The standards are clearly quantifiable.
You've forgotten the poitical standards. I was a big pain in the ass
about everything, and if there was a reason for the bus to leave 3
minutes early it would be because I was running 5 minutes late.
> As you go down the road a little further you are talking about things like
> nuance, subtlety, sophistication, the ability to make a convincing or even
> innovative stylistic statement, technical mastery, and superior interpretive
> abilities. These are the sorts of things that make the better players the
> better players. These are the abilities that players spend their lives
> developing and they correlate directly with the opportunities that come
> their way career wise.
>
> The cream rises to the top.
Kenny G. Peggy Lee. Jimmy Page. John Lee Hooker.
You may have a different list of great or "legendary" players who
either had no chops, or had chops far below those of their
now-forgetten peers.
> Certain auditions are sometimes held with the player behind a screen. In
> this way only the music is judged with no consideration as to the age, sex
> or race of the player. The competitive aspects of this endeavor have always
> been pretty clear to me as have the standards by which the music is to be
> judged. It's the survival of the fittest.
I'm not saying that commerce and politics always play a part. But many
of the citations you've given upstream for the inherent competitive
aspects of "music", which I won't argue with, are aspects of commerce.
"Getting the job" by whatever standards, including the blind audition
above is still about "getting a job", not about music.
> In jazz this competition manifests itself in the cutting session. I'll tell
> you the truth: when I'm at a session like this and I see someone I don't
> recognize make the scene I breathe a little easier when I see he's carrying
> something other than a guitar case. 8-) .....joe
Me too, but ain't that creepy? I use to have closed, living room
sessions with players that were all of the same skill levels and we
were really working hard on specific stuff. You might have taken your
2nd chorus on something and not quite nailed this thing you're trying
to wring out of your axe, but the guys you're working with, they're
listening to you, they're on the quest with you. Six bars before the
end of their phrase they give you the "go ahead" to try it one more
time. And you forge on, embued with additional intent by virtue of them
supporting you.
At a cutting session their method is to change keys on you when you're
stuttering. And you lose they win. There's a growth experience, right?
I'd rather do the music without the winning/losing. Maybe the only way
to do that is without the commerce, and maybe to even discuss that is
idiocy, in that those things with out commercial/capitalist value
cannot and will not survive in the universal "new world order".
I always hate that faux argument, "well if (artist) is so good where
are his gold records?", as if a failure to procure money is proof that
your music isn't good. Of all the places to unhitch art from commerce
it would seem that low-yield jazz would be one of the most likely
places.
I'll now continue to dream on.
Lawson Stone
la...@telus.net wrote on 6/7/02 2:55 AM:
> Ponty Mython?
>
>> huh?
>> Just went Ponty on me
Ahh...sorry...an academic allusion.
Ponty was a philosopher who at times launched into statements that were so
impossible to ferret through that you almost had a mystical experience just
trying to figure it out. So anytime somebody seems suddenly to switch gears
so abruptly that you can't follow, a philosopher is likely to mumble "The
guy just went Ponty on me" or something to that effect.
Charlie Robinson
impossible to ferret through that you almost had a mystical experience just
trying to figure it out.
<< Lawson Stone- >>
--------------------------------
Pontificate?
Joe Finn
.
> >
> > Just think about when you played in the 7th grade band. Who got to play
> > first chair?
>
> I'm not sure where you're going, bro. First chair went to Mr. Asskiss.
> He not only played as good as the best (I supposed--I didn't have the
> ears to discern), but he was real good at filing charts, and making
> copoies.
>
> > The best player should have gotten the nod. Best tone. Best reader. Best
> > intonation. Superior ability to play time. Best dynamics. No commercial
> > consideration is present. The standards are clearly quantifiable.
>
> You've forgotten the poitical standards. I was a big pain in the ass
> about everything, and if there was a reason for the bus to leave 3
> minutes early it would be because I was running 5 minutes late.
>
first chair based on his superior musicianship. He also played first in
different regional bands under the direction of people he didn't know. No
time to kiss up even if he was so inclined. Anyway, he's too shy for that.
> > As you go down the road a little further you are talking about things
like
> > nuance, subtlety, sophistication, the ability to make a convincing or
even
> > innovative stylistic statement, technical mastery, and superior
interpretive
> > abilities. These are the sorts of things that make the better players
the
> > better players. These are the abilities that players spend their lives
> > developing and they correlate directly with the opportunities that come
> > their way career wise.
> >
> > The cream rises to the top.
>
> Kenny G. Peggy Lee. Jimmy Page. John Lee Hooker.
>
> You may have a different list of great or "legendary" players who
> either had no chops, or had chops far below those of their
> now-forgetten peers.
>
It's a mistake to mix those who have enjoyed great popular success into this
equation. It's apples and oranges. On the one hand we're talking
musicianship and on the hand there's Bob Dylan. I don't begrudge him the
great career he's had, but the sonofabitch can't sing squat. The stuff that
appeals to the masses is not always the best music.
Same here. It's a goofy argument. Specious. One of the funny things about
the biz is that 95% of the adulation, fame and of course the money goes to
5% of the artists. Most of the 5%ers are in the pop category. From the point
of view of the layman who in all likelihood is looking through the wrong end
of the binoculars the assumption is that all musicians are rich and famous.
The public perception is thusly skewed as they generally have no first hand
experience as to how things really are. ....joe
Tom Walls
lawson...@verizon.net says...
> in article 1OYL8.780$Nr5....@news2.telusplanet.net, Lazzerini at
> la...@telus.net wrote on 6/7/02 2:55 AM:
>
> > Ponty Mython?
> >
> >> huh?
> >> Just went Ponty on me
>
> Ahh...sorry...an academic allusion.
>
> Ponty was a philosopher who at times launched into statements that were so
> impossible to ferret through that you almost had a mystical experience just
> trying to figure it out. So anytime somebody seems suddenly to switch gears
> so abruptly that you can't follow, a philosopher is likely to mumble "The
> guy just went Ponty on me" or something to that effect.
>
Oooo... that's good! Thanks, Lawson.
Charlie Robinson
<< Ponty was a philosopher who at times launched into statements that were so
impossible to ferret through that you almost had a mystical experience just
trying to figure it out.
<< Lawson Stone- >>
--------------------------------
Pontificate?
Charlie Robinson Jazz Guitarist, >>
--------------------
No wait, that has something to do with the Pope. You are making things up again
right? It is this frivolous attitude that gives this newsgroup it's bad
reputation, especially in Europe.
a wandering frank
"Charlie Robinson" <robins...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020607130844...@mb-bk.aol.com...
> << Ponty was a philosopher who at times launched into statements that were
so
> impossible to ferret through that you almost had a mystical experience
just
> trying to figure it out.
>
> << Lawson Stone- >>
> --------------------------------
> Pontificate?
No, I think he meant that Jean Luc was trying to go Ponty on him, but Lawson
wasn't taking any s^*t off him.
How's that for Ponty-mouth? I feel a sudden need to wash...
Frank
a wandering frank
session is actually useful in preparing newer jazz players for life in the
music biz. The abuse is ugly, but newer players are going to catch it in
any number of ways from club owners, leaders, failed auditions record
labels, whoever, so better to learn to develop a thick skin? Maybe the more
easily stung (like me) need to go home and shed hard with a thing to prove
before we can come back out and feel comfortable. Failure is instructive.
Don't get me wrong, I think most of the verbal abuse and attitudes are
unnecessary and like someone else said, that most of the lesson in
ass-kicking can be taught purely through the music and the failure to get
gigs, in more productive and less scarring ways. And I worry that some
really green players (albeit with potential) are going to hurt so bad that
they'll hang it up for good and deny themselves a valuable route to
self-expression, even in the privacy of their living room.
But as tough as some cutting sessions are, I think that they can teach
valuable lessons about heartbreak and the uglier sides of the business
earlier rather than later, when it's more costly. And if you survive, don't
you win a certain confidence-through-survival that keeps you going, and a
better perspective about the business as well as yourself?
I don't know, I'm just ruminating from the perspective of a hobbyist who's
had a few minor setbacks. I guess the other issue underneath that's bugging
me is the holier than thou attitude, usually implicit, of some local players
who have their own "club" and are only slightly above, at, or below my
level. More of an annoying "group politics" thing, I guess. I'm just too
busy at the moment to concentrate on breaking in and persuading, more than I
have.
Frank
Charlie Robinson
Frank
>>
--
----------------------------
I think that he might have been the father of Pontillism. You could always go
to Pont Neuf and jump in..........
Lazzerini
I think it's all just wine under the bridge.
LAZZ