getting lost during solos
rakmanenuff
someone's playing a solo, gets lost, or are so far outside
the box they're starting to confuse even themselves,
then starts playing random stuff until they're back on dry land,
ie a beginner starts playing blues, or someone might
just spout something that sounds clever, like the
half-wholetone scale until they find themselves back
within the chord structure?
"finding a way out" is one way of putting it, some people
do this every time they play solo, like it's a sport, others
simply get lost and try to bluff their way through it :)
rhan...@comcast.net
> what's a good term for this, in english?
Jazzheimers :-)
Russ
russhanchin.com
Rick Ross
"rakmanenuff" <rakma...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:37299bb4-4b6e-4838...@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
You typically hear the comment.."he got turned around on the form"
go2...@mac.com
andy...@mailinator.com
>
> someone's playing a solo, gets lost, or are so far outside
> the box they're starting to confuse even themselves,
> then starts playing random stuff until they're back on dry land,
>
being rubbish.
Marc Why
> > what's a good term for this, in english?
Hmm, the audiences usually just call that "jazz."
Marc
Joe Finn
"charles robinson" <robins...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:PL2dnY3Msv0GL33a...@comcast.com...
> The general rule is if you don't hear it don't play anything. Usually if
> you just stop you will hear something that will get you out of it.
> Charlie
That's what I would suggest too. Keep counting and keep listening.
.....joe
--
Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Derek
>"Stella By Searchlight......."
Now THAT is funny.
ott...@hotmail.com
take a tandem path, for the challenge of getting themselves back to
the Form.
Bg
tonyde...@gmail.com
Windpisser.
-TD
MQ
and you get yellow trousers.
tomb...@jhu.edu
>
> Windpisser.
That was one of Gabor Szabo's lesser albums, in my opinion.
Joey Goldstein
> what's a good term for this, in english?
"Inexperience"?
"In need of more work"?
> someone's playing a solo, gets lost, or are so far outside
> the box they're starting to confuse even themselves,
> then starts playing random stuff until they're back on dry land,
The first thing they need to learn is to just stop before it gets to
that point. Part of learning how to play is learning how to not lose
your bearings.
> ie a beginner starts playing blues, or someone might
> just spout something that sounds clever, like the
> half-wholetone scale until they find themselves back
> within the chord structure?
In my experience, most beginners can't handle the chord structure of a
blues to begin with. But the blues form is a great place to start
working on being able to address the chords.
> "finding a way out" is one way of putting it,
I think you mean "copping out".
Nobody who takes playing jazz even remotely seriously would allow
themselves to get lost on a blues unless the rhythm section was doing
something unusual.
> some people
> do this every time they play solo,
Not people I'd like to play with.
> like it's a sport,
As much as I have always hated the idea, and hate sports, there is a
certain level of athleticism that comes into playing music. Without a
certain type of physical strength we really can't play much of anything
worth playing.
> others
> simply get lost and try to bluff their way through it :)
They need to learn to stop.
On the other hand, we really don't need to know exactly what chords
we're playing on all the time either. All we really need to do is to
listen to what we're playing and to what the other guys are playing and
make decisions about whether or not we like the notes we're playing. If
you're on a bad sounding note, you're always a 1/2 step away from a note
that will sound better. But you have to be listening. And you need some
prior experience of what notes sound good on what chords. And, of
course, if the chords are going by too fast, and don't stay within any
one key for very long, then there is no time to listen and to make those
types of decisions.
But for medium tempo tunes, eventually, you don't really need to know
what the changes are. All you have to do is listen. Of course, it's
better if you listen *and* you know what the changes are too.
So, being "lost" on a blues is several orders of magnitude easier to
deal with than being lost on, say, Giant Steps. Still, it's a good idea
to set a goal for yourself that you will never get lost. Even if you
never quite wholly meet that goal it'll be good for you to try.
--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
<http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/AudioClips/audio.htm>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
rakmanenuff
> So, being "lost" on a blues is several orders of magnitude easier to
> deal with than being lost on, say, Giant Steps.
Haha, getting lost on a blues is not a good thing, but that
wasn't what I was referring to. I was referring to pentatonics
as a blag / an escape route.
> Still, it's a good idea
> to set a goal for yourself that you will never get lost. Even if you
> never quite wholly meet that goal it'll be good for you to try.
Without mentioning names, some very good players are
into the whole thing of striking random or unexpected notes
to force themselves to make an instant decision and go
somewhere with it. Like you said, you're only a halfstep
away from a different note.
So yeah, the goal would have to be to know the instrument
well enough to be able to experiment with some of that
and make it sound good.
Wow. I just tried Giant Steps for the first time and was
lost 99% of the time. But the second time I started to
hear some sort of symmetry in it and got it down to 96%.
What well known changes are considered the most difficult?
I'm listening to Stella by Starlight right now but to be
honest I don't understand where the songwriter/composer
was going with that one, I'm baffled that it's become a
popular one.
Joey Goldstein
> On Mar 20, 10:54 pm, Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>
>> So, being "lost" on a blues is several orders of magnitude easier to
>> deal with than being lost on, say, Giant Steps.
>
> Haha, getting lost on a blues is not a good thing, but that
> wasn't what I was referring to. I was referring to pentatonics
> as a blag / an escape route.
No. That's what you're referring to now.
There was no mention of pentatonics in your original post. If there had
been I might have said something about that.
Pentatonic scales are an important tool in every modern jazz player's
toolbox. Do you have a question about pentatonic scales?
>> Still, it's a good idea
>> to set a goal for yourself that you will never get lost. Even if you
>> never quite wholly meet that goal it'll be good for you to try.
>
> Without mentioning names, some very good players are
> into the whole thing of striking random or unexpected notes
> to force themselves to make an instant decision and go
> somewhere with it.
No please, mention some names.
Most of us call those "mistakes" and we usually try to not do that. But
once it's done it's good to have some strategies for recovery. Most good
jazz players are trying to play what they hear, not what they can't hear.
> Like you said, you're only a halfstep
> away from a different note.
That's not really what I said.
> So yeah, the goal would have to be to know the instrument
> well enough to be able to experiment with some of that
> and make it sound good.
>
> Wow. I just tried Giant Steps for the first time and was
> lost 99% of the time. But the second time I started to
> hear some sort of symmetry in it and got it down to 96%.
>
> What well known changes are considered the most difficult?
Reptillicus, by me.
> I'm listening to Stella by Starlight right now but to be
> honest I don't understand where the songwriter/composer
> was going with that one, I'm baffled that it's become a
> popular one.
It's just a pop tune. Maybe you should find a version with someone
singing it.
rakmanenuff
> rakmanenuff wrote:
> No. That's what you're referring to now.
> There was no mention of pentatonics in your original post. If there had
> been I might have said something about that.
What has "getting lost during solos/playing blues" got
to do with blues changes or blues songs? Blues soloing
is blues soloing no matter what the music behind it is doing.
People play "blues" over rock, funk, jazz, pop... etc.
> Pentatonic scales are an important tool in every modern jazz player's
> toolbox. Do you have a question about pentatonic scales?
Right. Let me think of a question.... sorry can't think of one...
oh yeah...How to avoid pentatonics??
> > Without mentioning names, some very good players are
> > into the whole thing of striking random or unexpected notes
> > to force themselves to make an instant decision and go
> > somewhere with it.
>
> No please, mention some names.
One concrete example.
George Benson said something about that on his DVD.
Something to the effect of "you can make *any* note
work"..."I like messing around", I'm not suggesting
that he's "lost" but he's not always playing it safe either.
> > What well known changes are considered the most difficult?
>
> Reptillicus, by me.
OK. I'll listen to that again. Your music is hot man.
My fave is the one with the abbreviated title............?..
ASLT.
LOL. Reptillicus. It's that one again :) Those changes
are nice. Haha, I've got a weird sense of humour, so
I'm gonna record a short version of Reptilicus right
now. Won't be anything like the original, but just for fun.
> > I'm listening to Stella by Starlight right now but to be
> > honest I don't understand where the songwriter/composer
> > was going with that one, I'm baffled that it's become a
> > popular one.
>
> It's just a pop tune. Maybe you should find a version with someone
> singing it.
Right... POP song? If you all say so.
Joey Goldstein
> On Mar 20, 11:52 pm, Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>> rakmanenuff wrote:
>
>> No. That's what you're referring to now.
>> There was no mention of pentatonics in your original post. If there had
>> been I might have said something about that.
>
> What has "getting lost during solos/playing blues" got
> to do with blues changes or blues songs? Blues soloing
> is blues soloing no matter what the music behind it is doing.
> People play "blues" over rock, funk, jazz, pop... etc.
They might play bluesy over anything, but the meaning of playing blues
is quite well known.
Whatever.
>> Pentatonic scales are an important tool in every modern jazz player's
>> toolbox. Do you have a question about pentatonic scales?
>
> Right. Let me think of a question.... sorry can't think of one...
> oh yeah...How to avoid pentatonics??
Why would you want to avoid them?
What do you have against them?
>>> Without mentioning names, some very good players are
>>> into the whole thing of striking random or unexpected notes
>>> to force themselves to make an instant decision and go
>>> somewhere with it.
>> No please, mention some names.
>
> One concrete example.
> George Benson said something about that on his DVD.
> Something to the effect of "you can make *any* note
> work"..."I like messing around", I'm not suggesting
> that he's "lost" but he's not always playing it safe either.
That's not really the sense of what you described earlier to my way of
thinking. A player like Benson knows full well what any note he chooses
to play will sound like before he plays it. He might choose an
unorthodox note to accent and that might lead him in an unusual
direction, but it's hardly random. There's only 12 notes anyway. How
many times do you think he's played them all?
>>> What well known changes are considered the most difficult?
>> Reptillicus, by me.
>
> OK. I'll listen to that again. Your music is hot man.
Hey, I was just joking.
But if you're serious, thanks.
> My fave is the one with the abbreviated title............?..
> ASLT.
I always had fun with that one too.
It didn't help me line up many jazz gigs though. Quite the opposite.
> LOL. Reptillicus. It's that one again :) Those changes
> are nice. Haha, I've got a weird sense of humour, so
> I'm gonna record a short version of Reptilicus right
> now. Won't be anything like the original, but just for fun.
Oh, oh.
>>> I'm listening to Stella by Starlight right now but to be
>>> honest I don't understand where the songwriter/composer
>>> was going with that one, I'm baffled that it's become a
>>> popular one.
>> It's just a pop tune. Maybe you should find a version with someone
>> singing it.
>
> Right... POP song? If you all say so.
Well, son, that's what popular music used to sound like.
It's from a movie. The Uninvited (1944).
Wasn't I Like Big Butts from a movie too?
rakmanenuff
> > LOL. Reptillicus. It's that one again :) Those changes
> > are nice. Haha, I've got a weird sense of humour, so
> > I'm gonna record a short version of Reptilicus right
> > now. Won't be anything like the original, but just for fun.
>
> Oh, oh.
Check Your Email :)
Joey Goldstein
BTW
The changes, of the blowing section, as I recall, are:
C#7sus4 |D/C# |C#7sus4 |D/C# |C#7sus4 |D/C# |C#7sus4 |D/C# / / G13b5 |
F#7(add4) C7 |A7(add4) Gmaj7b5 |F#7(add4) C7 |A7(add4) Gmaj7b5 |
F#7(add4) C7 |A7(add4) Gmaj7b5 |F#7(add4) C7 |A7(add4) Gmaj7b5 |
Fmaj7b5 Eb/A |D/Bb F/B |Cmaj7#5 Cmaj13 |Cmaj7#5 Cmaj7b5 |
Ab7alt Bb7alt |2/4 D/C# E/A |4/4 C/D | |
3/4 Ab7alt / Bb7alt |2/4 B/E D/C# E/A |
4/4 Fmaj7b5 |E/F |Fmaj7b5 |E/F |
3/4 Gmaj7 Bb13#11 / |4/4 Ab/A C13#11 |Eb7alt |Ab7alt ||
rakmanenuff
> BTW
>
> The changes, of the blowing section, as I recall, are:
>
> C#7sus4 |D/C# |C#7sus4 |D/C# |C#7sus4 |D/C# |C#7sus4 |D/C# / / G13b5 |
>
> F#7(add4) C7 |A7(add4) Gmaj7b5 |F#7(add4) C7 |A7(add4) Gmaj7b5 |
>
> F#7(add4) C7 |A7(add4) Gmaj7b5 |F#7(add4) C7 |A7(add4) Gmaj7b5 |
>
> Fmaj7b5 Eb/A |D/Bb F/B |Cmaj7#5 Cmaj13 |Cmaj7#5 Cmaj7b5 |
>
> Ab7alt Bb7alt |2/4 D/C# E/A |4/4 C/D | |
>
> 3/4 Ab7alt / Bb7alt |2/4 B/E D/C# E/A |
>
> 4/4 Fmaj7b5 |E/F |Fmaj7b5 |E/F |
>
> 3/4 Gmaj7 Bb13#11 / |4/4 Ab/A C13#11 |Eb7alt |Ab7alt ||
Thanks... Bb13#11?? I get seasick just reading that.
Did anyone here figure that stuff out?
HERE is my PSYCHOSURF version of Reptillicus:
http://www.mediamax.com/rakmanenuff/Hosted/Reptillicus.Cover.mp3
Joey Goldstein
> On Mar 21, 2:25 am, Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>
>> BTW
>>
>> The changes, of the blowing section, as I recall, are:
>>
>> C#7sus4 |D/C# |C#7sus4 |D/C# |C#7sus4 |D/C# |C#7sus4 |D/C# / / G13b5 |
>>
>> F#7(add4) C7 |A7(add4) Gmaj7b5 |F#7(add4) C7 |A7(add4) Gmaj7b5 |
>>
>> F#7(add4) C7 |A7(add4) Gmaj7b5 |F#7(add4) C7 |A7(add4) Gmaj7b5 |
>>
>> Fmaj7b5 Eb/A |D/Bb F/B |Cmaj7#5 Cmaj13 |Cmaj7#5 Cmaj7b5 |
>>
>> Ab7alt Bb7alt |2/4 D/C# E/A |4/4 C/D | |
>>
>> 3/4 Ab7alt / Bb7alt |2/4 B/E D/C# E/A |
>>
>> 4/4 Fmaj7b5 |E/F |Fmaj7b5 |E/F |
>>
>> 3/4 Gmaj7 Bb13#11 / |4/4 Ab/A C13#11 |Eb7alt |Ab7alt ||
>
>
>
> Thanks... Bb13#11?? I get seasick just reading that.
> Did anyone here figure that stuff out?
Bb7(9,#11,13) aka C/Bb7.
>
> HERE is my PSYCHOSURF version of Reptillicus:
>
> http://www.mediamax.com/rakmanenuff/Hosted/Reptillicus.Cover.mp3
Tim McNamara
<fa34d332-e0ea-4a76...@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
rakmanenuff <rakma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
After reading a few of your posts, I gotta ask... do you have any idea
what you are talking about when it comes to jazz guitar? It's hard to
tell from what you write.
Carl
said that in jazz, "There are no wrong notes, only wrong resolutions".
What's happened to that in this thread?
It happens to be that, as a player new to jazz, I sometimes lose my place
when taking solos, usually with tunes I'm not that familiar with. I WISH I
had the ability to find my way back. I would consider that a major
breakthrough!
Tim McNamara
"Carl" <crot...@NOSPAMoptonline.net> wrote:
> Hey, sorry, I'm a relative newbie to jazz guitar but I thought it's
> been said that in jazz, "There are no wrong notes, only wrong
> resolutions". What's happened to that in this thread?
There are wrong notes. But every note is in at least two contexts at
the same time- its relationship to the harmony and its relationship to
the line being played. A note that's "wrong" can still sound good if it
makes sense in the context of the line being played (then it's called
"out" rather that "wrong"). Thanks to the nature of music, a note is
never more than a half-step away from being "in," but part of the
artistry is to pick the best half-step- up or down- to achieve the best
effect.
> It happens to be that, as a player new to jazz, I sometimes lose my
> place when taking solos, usually with tunes I'm not that familiar
> with. I WISH I had the ability to find my way back. I would consider
> that a major breakthrough!
It'll come with more playing time. Your ears will improve so that you
can hear where the band is in the form. Your "feel" for where you are
in the form will improve.
rakmanenuff
>
> After reading a few of your posts, I gotta ask... do you have any idea
> what you are talking about when it comes to jazz guitar? It's hard to
> tell from what you write.
It's not like I even claim to know jazz guitar.
Jazz isn't my field, neither is "playing solos".
I make song-based music on a computer
and guitar is my second instrument.
Another Cleveland Guy
> Hey, sorry, I'm a relative newbie to jazz guitar but I thought it's been
> said that in jazz, "There are no wrong notes, only wrong resolutions".
> What's happened to that in this thread?
Reasonable question.
It may be true that there are no wrong notes, but that's a dangerous
premise for a newbie jazz player to adopt. Maybe for Miles Davis there
were no wrong notes, but then he was a master at selecting the follow-
up notes and phrasing that would make a wrong note seem brilliant.
It's a real high wire act to count on being able to get lost in the
form, not really know the tune, not know what chord you're playing
over -- and somehow miraculously "recover" by stumbling into something
really hip and innovative. Not too many players can pull that off with
any consistency. That's why cats spend a lifetime learning tunes,
exploring those tunes, memorizing the form, practicing scales, finding
ways to connect the changes, and generally getting their shit
together.
If it was easy, they'd be doing it on Star Search.
Jonathan
Florian Schmidt
> Thanks... Bb13#11?? I get seasick just reading that.
> Did anyone here figure that stuff out?
>
> HERE is my PSYCHOSURF version of Reptillicus:
>
> http://www.mediamax.com/rakmanenuff/Hosted/Reptillicus.Cover.mp3
Heh, that was refreshing..
Flo
--
Palimm Palimm!
http://tapas.affenbande.org
Another Cleveland Guy
>
> Bb7(9,#11,13) aka C/Bb7.
Huh? Did you mean C/Bb?
I never thought of it that way. Ya got any more AKAs for us, Joey?
Joey Goldstein
> On Mar 20, 11:20 pm, Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>
>> Bb7(9,#11,13) aka C/Bb7.
>
>
> Huh? Did you mean C/Bb?
I believe I meant what I said.
Hopefully it's a chord symbol you'll never actually see on any chart.
I'm just trying to point out that the 9 #11 and 13 on Bb7 happen to be a
Cmaj triad. That's all.
> I never thought of it that way. Ya got any more AKAs for us, Joey?
antal...@gmail.com
An easy way to think of 13th chords is by thinking of a 7th chord and
a triad, stacked. The triad shares the same quality as the R,3rd, and
5th of the seventh chord.
So, for example:
Cmaj13= Cmaj7 + Dmaj triad
Cmin13= Cmin7 + Dmin triad
C13= C7 + Dmaj triad
Notice that the triad is always one whole step above the root note of
the seventh chord. Also, you'll notice that by thinking this way, the
11th (which is normally sharp in a major or dominant 13th chord) is
already sharped for you.
Also: there are no half diminished or fully diminishes 7th chords with
the "13" tension(s) on it (at least to my knowledge).
Joey Goldstein
> On Mar 24, 5:49 pm, Another Cleveland Guy <jgib...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mar 20, 11:20 pm, Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Bb7(9,#11,13) aka C/Bb7.
>> Huh? Did you mean C/Bb?
>>
>> I never thought of it that way. Ya got any more AKAs for us, Joey?
>
> An easy way to think of 13th chords is by thinking of a 7th chord and
> a triad, stacked. The triad shares the same quality as the R,3rd, and
> 5th of the seventh chord.
> So, for example:
> Cmaj13= Cmaj7 + Dmaj triad
> Cmin13= Cmin7 + Dmin triad
> C13= C7 + Dmaj triad
>
> Notice that the triad is always one whole step above the root note of
> the seventh chord.
That depends on the chord type and the extensions involved; and if
you're thinking about a chord-scale relationship, on the particular
chord0scale too.
But mostly, you can count on any note that is whole step above a chord
tone being an available tension on that chord and that any note that is
a 1/2 step above a chord tone will be an avoid note.
The main exceptions to this 1/2 step avoid note rule are b9 and b13 on
dom7 chords. b9, which is a 1/2 step above the root happens all the time
as we all know. b13, which is a 1/2 step above the P5th happens too. But
on chords with a b13 we usually omit the P5th from the voicing. still,
even if the P5th is present b13 on dom7 chords is not too bad.
C7(b9,11,b13)
The tensions form a Dbmaj triad. Yes, 11 is usually considered an avoid
note, but sometimes, rarely, that sound is desirable too.
C7(b9,#11,13)
The tensions (Db F# and A) form an Amaj triad.
C7(b9,#11,b13)
The tensions (Db F# and Gb) form a Dbsus4 triad.
etc.
> Also, you'll notice that by thinking this way, the
> 11th (which is normally sharp in a major or dominant 13th chord) is
> already sharped for you.
>
> Also: there are no half diminished or fully diminishes 7th chords with
> the "13" tension(s) on it (at least to my knowledge).
The tensions associated with m7b5 chords are 9 11 and b13 (sometimes 13
too).
Usually the maj 9th is a chromatic note in whatever key the music is in,
unless the chord is functioning as VIm7b5. b9 is usually considered to
be an avoid note, but it is almost always a diatonic note in the key.
Some folks use it as an available tension anyway.
The maj 13th sounds a bit exotic on these chords and is used only rarely.
On Cm7b5(9,11,b13) the tensions form a Bdim triad.
On Cm7b5(b9,11,b13) the tensions form a Dbmaj triad.
On dom7 chords, any note that is whole step above a chord tone is an
available tension. Any not that is a 1/2 step above a chord tone will clash.
Cdim7(9,11,b13,maj7) Then tensions form a Ddim7 chord.
Regarding 7-note chord-scale relationships:
If you are applying an ionian scale color to a maj7 chord and you play
the 7-notes of the scale in 3rds starting on the root, then you get:
1 3 5 7 9 11 13 (4 is an avoid note on this chord)
The non chord tone tones form a min triad whose root is a whole step
above the chord's root.
If you are applying an lydian scale color to a maj7 chord and you play
the 7-notes of the scale in 3rds starting on the root, then you get:
1 3 5 7 9 #11 13 (no avoid notes)
The non chord tone tones form a maj triad whose root is a whole step
above the chord's root.
If you are applying an dorian scale color to a min7 chord and you play
the 7-notes of the scale in 3rds starting on the root, then you get:
1 b3 5 b7 9 11 13 (no avoid notes)
The non chord tone tones form a min triad whose root is a whole step
above the chord's root.
If you are applying an aeolian scale color to a min7 chord and you play
the 7-notes of the scale in 3rds starting on the root, then you get:
1 b3 5 b7 9 11 b13 (b13 is an avoid note on this chord)
The non chord tone tones form a dim triad whose root is a whole step
above the chord's root.
If you are applying a phrygian scale color to a min7 chord and you play
the 7-notes of the scale in 3rds starting on the root, then you get:
1 b3 5 b7 b9 11 b13 (b9 and b13 are avoid notes)
The non chord tone tones form a maj triad whose root is a whole step
above the chord's root.
If you are applying a locrian scale color to a min7b5 chord and you play
the 7-notes of the scale in 3rds starting on the root, then you get:
1 b3 b5 b7 b9 11 b13 (b9 is an avoid note)
The non chord tone tones form a maj triad whose root is a 1/2 step above
the chord's root.
If you are applying an mixolydian scale color to a dom7 chord and you
play the 7-notes of the scale in 3rds starting on the root, then you get:
1 3 5 b7 9 11 13 (4 is an avoid note)
The non chord tone tones form a min triad whose root is a whole step
above the chord's root.
If you are applying an lydian b7 scale color to a dom7 chord and you
play the 7-notes of the scale in 3rds starting on the root, then you get:
1 3 5 b7 9 #11 13 (no avoid notes)
The non chord tone tones form a maj triad whose root is a whole step
above the chord's root.
If you are applying an mixolydian b2b6 scale color to a dom7 chord and
you play the 7-notes of the scale in 3rds starting on the root, then you
get:
1 3 5 b7 b9 11 b13 (4 is an avoid note)
The non chord tone tones form a maj triad whose root is a 1/2 step above
the chord's root.
If you are applying an mixolydian b6 scale color to a dom7 chord and you
play the 7-notes of the scale in 3rds starting on the root, then you get:
1 3 5 b7 9 11 b13 (4 is an avoid note)
The non chord tone tones form a dim triad whose root is a whole step
above the chord's root.
If you are applying an mixolydian b2 scale color to a dom7 chord and you
play the 7-notes of the scale in 3rds starting on the root, then you get:
1 3 5 b7 b9 11 13 (4 is an avoid note)
The non chord tone tones form an aug triad whose root is a 1/2 step
above the chord's root.
If you are applying an locrian #2 scale color to a min7b5 chord and you
play the 7-notes of the scale in 3rds starting on the root, then you get:
1 b3 b5 b7 9 11 b13 (no avoid notes)
The non chord tone tones form a dim triad whose root is a whole step
above the chord's root.
If you are applying an jazz minor scale color to a min(maj7) chord and
you play the 7-notes of the scale in 3rds starting on the root, then you
get:
1 b3 5 7 9 11 b13 (no avoid notes)
The non chord tone tones form a min triad whose root is a whole step
above the chord's root.
Etc., etc.
So it's a good idea, after you've learned all your 7-note scales, top
practice playing the 7 notes in 3rds starting on each scale degree.
Another Cleveland Guy
>
> - Show quoted text -
Wow. I know this newsgroup sucks and all, but I learn more cool shit
here. Thanks, fellas.
antal...@gmail.com
damn... I finally find a topic I think I can answer with relative
certainty, and I get blown out of the water.
Joey Goldstein
>
> damn... I finally find a topic I think I can answer with relative
> certainty, and I get blown out of the water.
Hey, it's not a contest.
antal...@gmail.com
haha i know, i was just kidding around
rakmanenuff
> So, being "lost" on a blues is several orders of magnitude easier to
> deal with than being lost on, say, Giant Steps.
Hmm. I've just been on YouTube listening to 20 guitar
versions of Giant Steps. So far no one's come anywhere
near the Trane version, not in my estimation anyway.
There were maybe 2 good ones there, but only just.
Maybe the thing to do to understand that song
is to listen to non-guitar versions.....?
Many players are on Strats and there are also a few
Heavy Metal / Shred versions, ironically that means it
retains a certain energy level and rawness, unlike many
of the other guitar versions that have been slowed down
and smoothed out so much it kinda sounds like a different song.
The Aebersold track is at a comfortable and sensible
tempo, slower but still ok. Many of the players on YouTube
wrote in their info that they found the song very difficult,
which would explain why they played a combination of
cool stuff and junk. Don't try and tell me those dudes
weren't lost in several places, if only for half a second
at a time. (If not they must have bad taste in their choice
of notes).
Maybe it's easier to play some things on sax, but it seems
to me that many guitarists have problems with the internal
dynamics, instead of Trane's swing they seem to
be playing a long stream of relatively even notes struck with
roughly the same velocity, and with considerably
less swing or playfulness.
Another thing I'm wondering about is songs like
Sweet Georgia Brown. There aren't many guitar
versions, but the ones I saw are either manic fiddle/
country picking/ gypsy madness at the original
tempo, or "jazz guitar" versions that are MUCH
slower. For me personally that fast tempo is just
ridiculous, but the fast tempo is part of the song
isn't it? How do people here cope with those kind
of songs?
rpjazz...@gmail.com
I'm studying this post. It's got a lot of content.
Do you have any tips for how to approach this much material in bite-
sized, color/sound oriented pieces?
I'm wondering if there's some sort of organized approach to apply it
to tunes.
Rick
antal...@gmail.com
You should order Joey's book. He's written out some tunes with only
2nd string tensions. So if the root of the chord is notated to be on
the 5th string, the tension will be the 9th (flat or raised, doesn't
matter). If the root of the chord is notated to be on the 6th string,
the tension will be the 13th.
Then he'll have another tune all written out, this time with only 1st
string tensions. So you have either 13ths/11ths/9th on the first
string, depending on what string the root is on.
Last but not least, he'll combine both exercises into a tune.
I know these exercises made it easy for me to locate the tensions
quickly, but also helped me know what tensions work better on
different types of chords.
I hope you play guitar, and I hope that helps =).
Joey Goldstein
> Joey,
>
> I'm studying this post. It's got a lot of content.
>
> Do you have any tips for how to approach this much material in bite-
> sized, color/sound oriented pieces?
Just start.
> I'm wondering if there's some sort of organized approach to apply it
> to tunes.
>
> Rick
Mark Kleinhaut
> what's a good term for this, in english?
>
> someone's playing a solo, gets lost, or are so far outside
> the box they're starting to confuse even themselves,
> then starts playing random stuff until they're back on dry land,
>
> ie a beginner starts playing blues, or someone might
> just spout something that sounds clever, like the
> half-wholetone scale until they find themselves back
> within the chord structure?
>
> "finding a way out" is one way of putting it, some people
> do this every time they play solo, like it's a sport, others
> simply get lost and try to bluff their way through it :)
The repertoire of Jazz, as an idiom, involves knowing the tunes inside
and out. With practice and full imersion, the tunes get burned deep
into the brain and you will never ever get lost again. It's called
"losing the form", when you don't know where you are within the
structure of the composition. The only cause of this is not knowing
the tune well enough, with the "enough" really being a function that
varies from individual to individual based on their level of attention
and concentration in the face of distractions, which can be external
such as if someone else in band gets lost, a sudden noise, someone
talking to you etc. or internal such as wandering thoughts,
overthinking what you're doing, judging what you're doing etc.
By the way, sometimes you have to adjust to survive on the bandstand
when one or more of your bandmates loses the form and just decides to
be "somewhere" with a level of authority that must be followed- even
though it is plum wrong. Work a lot with singers and you can get very
good at this:)
Another Cleveland Guy
Amen. It's good to have you back, Mark.
Joey Goldstein
> On Mar 20, 10:54 pm, Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>
>> So, being "lost" on a blues is several orders of magnitude easier to
>> deal with than being lost on, say, Giant Steps.
>
> Hmm. I've just been on YouTube listening to 20 guitar
> versions of Giant Steps. So far no one's come anywhere
> near the Trane version, not in my estimation anyway.
> There were maybe 2 good ones there, but only just.
Not sure how that's relevant.
But it's quite understandable that *anyone* else playing GS is not going
to sound as good as Trane. Why would you expect otherwise?
> Maybe the thing to do to understand that song
> is to listen to non-guitar versions.....?
Learning a tune rarely has anything to do with what instrument it's to
be played on, unless theres an arrangement that can only be executed on
this or that instrument.
> Many players are on Strats and there are also a few
> Heavy Metal / Shred versions, ironically that means it
> retains a certain energy level and rawness, unlike many
> of the other guitar versions that have been slowed down
> and smoothed out so much it kinda sounds like a different song.
>
> The Aebersold track is at a comfortable and sensible
> tempo, slower but still ok. Many of the players on YouTube
> wrote in their info that they found the song very difficult,
> which would explain why they played a combination of
> cool stuff and junk. Don't try and tell me those dudes
> weren't lost in several places, if only for half a second
> at a time. (If not they must have bad taste in their choice
> of notes).
There's a difference between getting lost and making a mistake. You can
make lots of mistakes without really being lost.
If you do actually get lost on GS it can be quite tricky to find your
place again because each area of the tune sounds so similar to every
other area of the tune and the key is always changing.
On a blues however, it should normally be pretty easy to hear all the I
IV and V chords.
> Maybe it's easier to play some things on sax, but it seems
> to me that many guitarists have problems with the internal
> dynamics, instead of Trane's swing they seem to
> be playing a long stream of relatively even notes struck with
> roughly the same velocity, and with considerably
> less swing or playfulness.
>
> Another thing I'm wondering about is songs like
> Sweet Georgia Brown. There aren't many guitar
> versions, but the ones I saw are either manic fiddle/
> country picking/ gypsy madness at the original
> tempo, or "jazz guitar" versions that are MUCH
> slower. For me personally that fast tempo is just
> ridiculous,
So play it slower.
> but the fast tempo is part of the song
> isn't it?
Not necessarily. But folks do like to play it bright.
> How do people here cope with those kind
> of songs?
How else? Practice and get comfortable slow. Then speed it up.
Joey Goldstein
gain surety as to where they are in the form.
1. Play melodies based on the chord-of-the-moment, especially on tunes
that have lots of chords.
Eg. If you're playing on the A section of rhythm changes and all the
notes that you use to make your melodies with are in the Bb maj scale,
you might have enough musical intuition to sound really fine, but you
might not be aware of where you are in the form when the bridge comes
around. Sure, you can rely on BIAB, or your play-a-long record, or the
guys you jam with, to play the bridge in right place and you can just
follow along. But what it you're playing without *any* accompaniment?
You should still be able to play over the form of this tune.
On the other hand....If you're playing on the A section of rhythm
changes and all the notes that you use to make your melodies with are
chord tones on the chord-of-the-moment, you can't really get lost,
unless you make a mistake and foolishly try to fix it instead of just
moving on to the next chord.
So, one sure-fire way to avoid getting lost is to learn to treat each
new chord as a new event, in time, that you have to deal with.
2. Learn to play tunes with very few chords, like So What, Impressions,
Milestones (new), and Little Sunflower.
The forms of these tunes require you to learn how feel 8 bar phrases
without much external info coming at you to guide you. Unless you're
incredibly lucky in the intuition department accomplishing this will
require you to play incredibly simply, even though you're probably
capable of wanking away really impressively on each one of the scales
involved, and counting (1 2 3 4, 2 2 3 4, 3 2 3 4, 4 2 3 4, etc.) *while
you play your phrases*. You need to learn what your limits are and to
play only as much as you can actually play *without getting lost*. When
you're at the 2nd A section, you have to learn to tell yourself "Now I'm
at the 2nd A section." When you're at the top of the form, you have to
tell yourself "Top."
Sure, you can rely on a play-a-long or your band-mates for a while but
you need to be able to play over tunes like these without anybody
accompanying you.
So 1:
Play tunes with lots of chords and make up melodies from the chord tones
themselves.
and 2:
Play tunes with very few chords, and while you're improvising over the
entire chord-scale relationship, learn to count bars and make mental
notes of the A B etc. sections.
Both exercises get you to a place where *you're* in control of your
materials rather than having to rely in others to tell you where you are
in the tune.
Joey Goldstein
> There are two seemingly opposite things that a student can work on to
> gain surety as to where they are in the form.
>
> 1. Play melodies based on the chord-of-the-moment, especially on tunes
> that have lots of chords.
> 2. Learn to play tunes with very few chords, like So What, Impressions,
> Milestones (new), and Little Sunflower.
Then there are tunes in the middle of these two extremes, like
Recordame, Maiden Voyage, All Blues, Freddie The Freeloader, Green
Mountains, Eiderdown, Sea Journey, Open Your Eyes You Can Fly, etc.
There's enough time between most of the changes to get relaxed with
whatever scale is involved, bit there's also a few more chords happening
with a faster harmonic rhythm than say, So What.
Another Cleveland Guy
> Joey Goldstein wrote:
> > 1. Play melodies based on the chord-of-the-moment, especially on tunes
> > that have lots of chords.
> > 2. Learn to play tunes with very few chords, like So What, Impressions,
> > Milestones (new), and Little Sunflower.
>
> Then there are tunes in the middle of these two extremes
So in other words, play all the tunes? :-)
Joey Goldstein
> rpjazz...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Joey,
>>
>> I'm studying this post. It's got a lot of content.
>>
>> Do you have any tips for how to approach this much material in bite-
>> sized, color/sound oriented pieces?
>
> Just start.
>
>> I'm wondering if there's some sort of organized approach to apply it
>> to tunes.
>>
>> Rick
>
>
You might go over to a piano at first and just play all the 7-note
arpeggios I listed, starting on all 12 possible roots.
Hit the sustain pedal so you can hear what they sound like as chords.
Then see what happens when you omit the notes I've labeled as "avoid-notes".
See what happens if you omit the 5th, or the 9th, etc.
What happens if omit the 3rd?
Notice which other chords the upper regions of the arp happen to form.
Eg. The top 4 notes of a Cmaj9 chord (C E G B D) form an Em7 chord. Etc.
Then you should try to play all 7 notes within a single octave.
Eg. 1 3 5 7 9 11 13
becomes
1 2/9 3 4/11 5 6/13 7 1
Etc.
Then see what types of melodies you can create over the chord-type
you're studying by using those notes. See what happens if you omit the
avoid-notes. Learn some way to use the avoid-notes too.
See what types of chord voicings you can come up with where the
extensions are down in the lower regions of the voicing instead of on top.
Etc. etc.
Mick Goodrick taught me a system of modal vamps that I could use as a
backdrop to get familiar with the basic modal chord-scale sounds.
C Ionian
Cmaj7 / / / | / / G7sus4 / |repeat ad infinitum
C Lydian
C / D |C/ D / |repeat ad infinitum
C mixolydian
C7 / / / | / / Gm7 / |repeat ad infinitum
C dorian
Cm7 / / / | / /Dm7 / |repeat ad infinitum
C aeolian
Cm7 / Bb / |Ab / Bb / |repeat ad infinitum
C phrygian
Cm7 / / / | / / Dbmaj7 / |repeat ad infinitum
C locrian
Cm7b5 / / / | / / Bbm / |repeat ad infinitum
Etc.
In my book, there are vamps for the modal chord-scales derived from the
other scales used in jazz too (mel min, harm min, harm maj, diminished,
whole-tone, aug, etc.).
Joey Goldstein
Exactly!
Or least a whole bunch of them with various harmonic rhythms.
Chickenhead
That D/C# would definitely blow a few circuits for me, at least until I
heard a context. The first 8 bars looks like two triads (B and D) over a C#
pedal, or maybe just a big C#7, but since I've never heard or played it, I'm
not really qualified to comment.
Are the Maj7b5 really Maj7b5, or are they misnamed #11? That'd defnitely
fry a circuit or two for me if they were real Maj7b5, at least until I had a
context or melody; I'd probably just arpeggiate my way through until I had a
clue.
Ouch!
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:frv6a5$53p$1...@news.datemas.de...
> rakmanenuff wrote:
>> On Mar 21, 1:29 am, Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>
>>>> LOL. Reptillicus. It's that one again :) Those changes
>>>> are nice. Haha, I've got a weird sense of humour, so
>>>> I'm gonna record a short version of Reptilicus right
>>>> now. Won't be anything like the original, but just for fun.
>>> Oh, oh.
>>
>> Check Your Email :)
>
> BTW
>
> The changes, of the blowing section, as I recall, are:
>
> C#7sus4 |D/C# |C#7sus4 |D/C# |C#7sus4 |D/C# |C#7sus4 |D/C# / / G13b5 |
>
> F#7(add4) C7 |A7(add4) Gmaj7b5 |F#7(add4) C7 |A7(add4) Gmaj7b5 |
>
> F#7(add4) C7 |A7(add4) Gmaj7b5 |F#7(add4) C7 |A7(add4) Gmaj7b5 |
>
> Fmaj7b5 Eb/A |D/Bb F/B |Cmaj7#5 Cmaj13 |Cmaj7#5 Cmaj7b5 |
>
> Ab7alt Bb7alt |2/4 D/C# E/A |4/4 C/D | |
>
> 3/4 Ab7alt / Bb7alt |2/4 B/E D/C# E/A |
>
> 4/4 Fmaj7b5 |E/F |Fmaj7b5 |E/F |
>
> 3/4 Gmaj7 Bb13#11 / |4/4 Ab/A C13#11 |Eb7alt |Ab7alt ||
Chickenhead
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:fsavd0$ooe$1...@news.datemas.de...
> C7(b9,#11,13)
> The tensions (Db F# and A) form an Amaj triad.
Weird, it looks like an F# minor triad to me.
>
> C7(b9,#11,b13)
> The tensions (Db F# and Gb) form a Dbsus4 triad.
>
Weird, it looks like two notes to me -- Did you mean Db, F# and Ab?
Joey Goldstein
>
>
> "Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
> news:fsavd0$ooe$1...@news.datemas.de...
>> C7(b9,#11,13)
>> The tensions (Db F# and A) form an Amaj triad.
>
> Weird, it looks like an F# minor triad to me.
Sorry, you're right.
My bad.
For some reason I must have been thinking C13b9 (i.e. no 11th at all).
>>
>> C7(b9,#11,b13)
>> The tensions (Db F# and Gb) form a Dbsus4 triad.
>>
> Weird, it looks like two notes to me -- Did you mean Db, F# and Ab?
Oops again. Yes, the Gb shoulda been an Ab.
Thanks.
Joey Goldstein
> Never played or heard Reptillicus, but ouch. Looks like a real bear.
>
> That D/C# would definitely blow a few circuits for me, at least until I
> heard a context. The first 8 bars looks like two triads (B and D) over
> a C# pedal, or maybe just a big C#7, but since I've never heard or
> played it, I'm not really qualified to comment.
>
> Are the Maj7b5 really Maj7b5, or are they misnamed #11? That'd
> defnitely fry a circuit or two for me if they were real Maj7b5, at least
> until I had a context or melody; I'd probably just arpeggiate my way
> through until I had a clue.
>
> Ouch!
<http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=62669&content=music>
8th track from the top of the page.