desperately in need of advice
Michael Dulaney
years), I've been trying to play improvisational music. However, it seems
that no matter how many times I practice over a chord vamp, my playing
doesn't improve. Essentially, I feel like I'm never going to be a good
musician or composer. My question for some of the teachers/musicians on
this NG is: have you ever come across a musician who was doomed to writing
crappy music and improvising badly, no matter how much practice? If not,
how can I get better? I have developed a pretty good ear (I can figure out
a lot of simple music without rewinding), I have a pretty good chord
vocabulary, knowledge of all the notes on the fretboard- scales, etc...
Essentially, I lack STYLE- I play like a white boy. Any suggestions would
help.
Mike
SHUCET
teacher, or visited with another musician who might give you some advice?
Doesn't need to be a guitar player; just a good musician that you can talk to
and play music with.
Stop worrying about sounding like a "white boy." What does that mean anyway?
Do you think you would be a better musician if you magically became someone
other than who you are? White, Black, Brown, or Red isn't the issue.
There's no magic time frame. If you've been playing for six years, play
another six, then another six. You'll never reach a time when you're done.
You're not doomed, unless you convince yourself that you are. Then, nothing
will be able to help you.
crib
<< My question...is: have you ever come across a musician who was doomed to
writing crappy music and improvising badly, no matter how much practice? >>
yes.
...doesn't necessarily mean that you're one; but yeah, personally, i've come
across a few of those. they're definitely the minority -- MOST people, i think,
can rise above that level -- but they are out there.
crib
florian schmidt
<dul...@purdue.edu> wrote:
maybe you play the same licks over and over.. you say, that you have a
pretty good ear. what about your "inner ear"? do play what comes from
there (for me the ultimate goal, which i definetly have not reached), or
do you play what your hands do?
i was stuck in quite the same way as you before i started to learn jazz.
i was coming from a rock background and just played the same stuff over
and over and whenever i tried to "compose" something it sucked big time,
because i couldn't play the stuff i heard inside me (being self taught, i
didn't even play a correct blues scale)...
now, like i said, i'm far from being a superb or even decent musician,
but i started to enjoy the stuff i'm doing on the guitar.. sometimes i
enjoy the hell out of it when i play with other people and some of this
communication stuff starts to happen..
my tip: start composing little tunes.. when u walk around, do funky
things to the beat of your steps (i even do drum beats with my mouth when
climbing into the fourth floor to my place where i live).. and whenever
you do a melody that sounds good, run run run to your guitar and play it.
my impression is: to be a good musician there has to be something inside
you (some melodies, some sounds).. the great art is to truly listen to
yourself (and others) and then transfer that stuff to your instrument..
my .02$
--
florian schmidt
mista...@gmx.net
http://www.artedagencygermany.com/mista.tapas/index.html
Max Leggett
>years), I've been trying to play improvisational music. However, it seems
>that no matter how many times I practice over a chord vamp, my playing
>doesn't improve. Essentially, I feel like I'm never going to be a good
a D7 chord in first position. Took me a day to be able to grab the
positon at will. The next wall was moving smoothly between G and D7.
Perhaps 3 days. Every wall is higher and takes longer to get over than
the one before. A good teacher will help you over it. Trying to teach
yourself [which is the impression I get from reading between the
lines] can trap you, as, by definition, you don't have the experiennce
to see how to get over the wall.
>musician or composer. My question for some of the teachers/musicians on
>this NG is: have you ever come across a musician who was doomed to writing
>crappy music and improvising badly, no matter how much practice?
Not really. Only a very few muscicians can improvise and play at the
highest level, but I think damn near anyone, especially if they've
been playing for 6 years, can learn to play well. By well, good enough
for club dates, jamming with other musos.
>how can I get better?
U need a teacher.
>Essentially, I lack STYLE- I play like a white boy.
You mean like John Scofield and Jimmy Bruno? This is a problem??????
:)
duffy doherty
My advice is to sing or hum melodic lines into a small recorder as you
listen to the changes you want to improvise over. This is your true voice as
it exists currently. Learn to play what you recorded over the same changes.
This helps teach you the ability to play on your instrument what your are
hearing in your head. Soon you will become adept at hearing it and playing
it without having to record it......This works....
My2
Duffy
"Michael Dulaney" <dul...@purdue.edu> wrote in message
news:9nge3o$on7$1...@mozo.cc.purdue.edu...
Ethan Young
one...).
Later,
Ethan
"duffy doherty" <duffyd...@home.com> wrote in message
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Greg
> I have been playing guitar for 6 years. Most recently (within the last 3
> years), I've been trying to play improvisational music. However, it seems
> that no matter how many times I practice over a chord vamp, my playing
> doesn't improve. Essentially, I feel like I'm never going to be a good
> musician or composer. My question for some of the teachers/musicians on
Been there, done that - still doing it...
>
> this NG is: have you ever come across a musician who was doomed to writing
> crappy music and improvising badly, no matter how much practice? If not,
Yes, you're talking to him now :)
>
> how can I get better? I have developed a pretty good ear (I can figure out
> a lot of simple music without rewinding), I have a pretty good chord
> vocabulary, knowledge of all the notes on the fretboard- scales, etc...
> Essentially, I lack STYLE- I play like a white boy. Any suggestions would
Ha-ha! That's a good one.
>
> help.
>
> Mike
Seriously, Mike... I have heard bad players and good players. I have had my
share of self-doubt as just not to finding my own style, but whether I'd
actually ever play out.
The style will come on it's own; it's not something that you can just punch out
- you have to develop it and many times, I think, it develops seemingly on it's
own until one day somebody says, "Hey I like your tone". So, as for style, just
let it come. It will be different today than it is 5 years from now anyways, so
why fret about it?
Now, as for playing better... I have found nothing better for my playing than a
goal. The goal can be as simple as working up songs to jam with friends which
is where I am now. One of my jam partners has asked for us to work up a half
dozen songs for performance somewhere (a nursing home gig sounds better and
better). That's another goal. So, for me, learning songs right now is
paramount.
While learning songs, I want to experiment with a few things like walking bass,
bluesy bends, and fuller comping. Those are my goals within goals.
So, set short-term, attainable, bite-sized goals for yourself and get with
others to jam. Agree to work up songs first so the jams won't seem so
undirected. This will spur you on more thna you know; nothing worse than being
embarassed in front of your peers :)
Greg
sgcim
Copy a lotta solos- start with Kenny Burrell,Grant Green, and Wes
Montgomery and use some of their ideas in your solos and then analyze
them- why do they sound good? Why do your ideas sound bad? How can you
change your ideas to sound more like theirs'?
Max Leggett
>> help.
>>
Good advice. I've copied everything of Parker's that I can fit under
my fingers. Donna Lee has some ii-V-Is that are an absolute treat.
Fitting them into a Joe Pass type blues, dropping notes, slurring -
makes it sound like I know what I'm doing. Picasso said that only a
hack would plagiarise an idea - true artists simply stole. On that
basis I'm an artist. :) Everyone has studied and copied the people
who went before. Why reinvent the wheel? You don't want to get stuck
in a rut of simply playing some else's licks, even if it is Parker,
but every idea can be altered and filtered through your own technique,
the context in which you use it - eventually it becomes your own.
Copy solos from records,too. Steal everything you can get your ears
around. It'll start off as copying, but once it gets filtered through
your playing it ends up as you.
Adam Bravo
thing. But don't just put on the CD or album or tape or whatever.
Specifically, try to figure what the player is doing that makes it "hip."
"Michael Dulaney" <dul...@purdue.edu> wrote in message
news:9nge3o$on7$1...@mozo.cc.purdue.edu...
.MAtt
music do you listen to?
"Michael Dulaney" <dul...@purdue.edu> wrote in message
news:9nge3o$on7$1...@mozo.cc.purdue.edu...
Michael Dulaney
Report, Herbie Hancock, etc... However, the style of improvisational music
I'm trying to play is of the jamband type, namely Phish. As far as music
that I listen to, I have been listening to Bela Bartok, Primus, Tool,
Michael Hedges, and Talking Heads most recently.
Mike
.MAtt <noS...@spam.com> wrote in message
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.MAtt
"Michael Dulaney" <dul...@purdue.edu> wrote in message
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Michael Dulaney
thanks in advance,news:A5Xm7.110140$ZJ.12...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com...
Patrick L.
Mike, I can relate. Some of my thoughts on the subject:
When I was younger improvisation was my primary musical focus.
However, I never really reached the heights of improvisational ecstacy to
that of the likes of Wes Montgomery,
Joe Pass, Chet Baker, Mulligan, Coltrane, and others. In fact, nowhere
near it, and I have come to
the accept my limitations.
However, I discovered that I am a good arranger, and can compose a pretty
good song, and now that I've
reached fifty, my whole music agenda has changed, and I see myself more as
a composer.
Just find out what aspect of music you are good at, and go for that.
Improvisation isn't everything, and to many people,
it ain't that much. But it is heaven to listen to when the genuine article
is really happening.
Interestingly enough, about six years ago, after 35 years of guitar, I
took up piano, and I made an interesting
discovery: a certain inability which was giving me a hard time on guitar,
did not manifest on piano. I learned
that I had an inability to retain the chord structure of a song in my head
while playing, and would frequently get
lost when playing in a group.
But that isn't a problem so much on the piano since I can comp the
progression with my left hand. The "muscle
memory" of my left hand serves to anchor my right hand and keeps me from
losing my place, and thus I find improvising a real joy again. So the
point here is that you got to probe a bit to find out what is at the core of
the problem that
is holding you back. Well, I had to learn a new instrument to find that
out. Hopefully, your solution won't
be that drastic.
But here is another thing that helped me be melodic when improvising. I
would scat through jazz tunes when I would
listen to the radio. I did this until I could pretty much bebop as good as
any trumpet player or sax, well, almost.
But getting that "swing" into my head first, allowed it to manifest on my
instrument. Six years is a drop in the bucket
for being a musician. Okay, your not a genious, but most of us aren't,
either.
Hitting a plateau, i.e., a point where you don't seem to be getting any
better is common. And actual growth
is more like it is in nature, where something grows by fits and starts.
You will be on a plateau, and this will
go on for a while, then suddenly, you will have breakthrough, only to
reach another plateau and hang again,
and so on. This will go on for years.
Whatever you do, don't stop.
Patrick L.
Zappabark
or 8 years (well, not entirely, but I just stopped practicing). What really
helped me was to record myself and listen over and over and over again. You
need this feedback to learn what bothers you about your playing. For
example, you may find yourself repeating phrases that just don't work, but
are fun to play (just because you can play a neato 6-string arpeggio with
every tension at 100 miles an hour doesn't mean you should). Remember that
in order to be happy improvising, you have to play things that sound good
and right to *yourself* - the best way to achieve this (IMHO) is to listen
to your own playing and take steps to avoid those things you don't like. On
the other side of the coin, you may find that you aren't really as bad as
you think.
ZB
--
Webmaster
www.8thfloormusic.com
"Michael Dulaney" <dul...@purdue.edu> wrote in message
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Mark Kleinhaut
might be a fundamental problem for you, a lack of self-acceptance and being
comfortable in your own skin.
If you are seeking to improve as an improvisor, a critical thing you must
do is listen to yourself in real time, as you are playing, and find the next
logical step of what to play based on the LAST thing you played. A solo
is not a series of licks that fit over set chord changes, but rather, a fluid
evolving set of lines, melodic statements, with continuity from line to line
and cohesivenes throughout.
When you play, make your line relate to the prior line and keep repeating
the process. This is at least as important as playin "on" the changes and
can lead you to what some call playing "through" the changes.
One last thought....it can take lots of time and patience to get there.
Don't give up. Hope this helps a little.
--------------------Mark Kleinhaut markkl...@hotmail.com
Info and soundclips about:
"Chasing Tales": www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Chasing%20Tales.html
"Amphora":www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Amphora.html
"Secrets of Three": www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/SO3.html
Jason Wilcox
library, or from a bookshop, its got some good concepts in it that will
probably help.
By the way - if you think it sucks, thars just your biased opinion.
There are possibly quite a few people who would be glad to be where
youre at now. Enjoy it and move on at a gradual pace. Also, be aware
that nobody learns the same. Most people dont learn or improve at a
steady pace, most grow in fits and starts.
Two of the best things you can do are - record yourself lots, and teach
others - and as you improve your explanation of your personal approach,
youll find yourself developing that approach as you go along, refining,
improving, and growing. You may have a few roads to go down personally,
emotionally, or philosophically before your music can improve.
Not to sound like an ethereal, tree hugging, lotus position sitting
meditation junkie, but Free your mind and your fingers will follow !
jazzgui...@hotmail.com (I am a guitar player/teacher, Christchurch,
New Zealand)