Anyone gigging with BIAB? Results?
STRNGMN123
At a big band gig I was doing recently, a Sax player in the place next door was
using, I think, biab arrangements played thru some kind of sequencer or
keyboard, into a pa. He sounded great. I usually play solo, and sing and do
solo guitar stuff. But at times I have hauled a laptop out and used the bass
and drum parts just to give myself some variety and a break. Lately, I thought
someone said he used an SC88 for this, and a friend loaned me a Roland 1010 to
check it out. I would appreciate what others have found. Thanks in advance,
Jerry in Atlanta
Max Leggett
There's a guy who plays outside the coffee place down by the Quay
using BIAB and to say that he sucks would be overly charitable. Using
cheap unidirectional speakers didn't help, nor did his lack of ability
[to be fair, he had a passable voice] but those backing tracks were
downright lame. I spent an hour or so this morning going through some
of the styles hoping to find one that was useful. Uh uh. But I also
just spent an hour practicing with just the bass and drums which I'd
recorded onto my Roland, and they sounded ok. So, if yer gonna, really
work on the style aspect of it, overdubbing if necessary, and make
sure you use decent speakers that have a good wide cast. Even better
would be find a sympathetic double bassist and work up some stuff with
him.
Jack A. Zucker
sounds are awful. I can't imagine using it commercially.
It's a great practice tool for a limited subset of '50s jazz but that's
about it...
"STRNGMN123" <strng...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031029173523...@mb-m14.aol.com...
Gerry
Zucker <j...@jackzucker.com> wrote:
> Ethics aside, BIAB is awful and the general midi / Roland Sound Canvas
> sounds are awful. I can't imagine using it commercially.
Even if you found the need/reason to use it publicly, that same fucking
ending on the end of every single tune drives me bonkers!
> It's a great practice tool for a limited subset of '50s jazz but that's
> about it...
I think it's a great tool for practice on all manner of tunes. If it's
about cycling through the changes trying to find interesting routes or
different approaches or whatever--it will played the changes all day...
--
///--- Vote for the richest Republican. He understand the common man.
Mark Guest
desperately needed them). BIAB is beyond the pale. You'll hate yourself for
doing it.
--
Mark Guest
Mark at MarkGuest.net
www.MarkGuest.net
"STRNGMN123" <strng...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031029173523...@mb-m14.aol.com...
Rick Ross
only...backed off to floppies and played through an old Kawai combo
sequencer sound module...my seductive, incurably romantic, ultimately
uninventive guitar playing lays on top of it in coffee shops and restaurants
around my area weekly...it's cheesy but functional...the trick is to use the
simplest possible harmony for the tunes..it can't beat real bass and
drums..but some venues can only handle a solo..and it's better than killing
yourself with three hours of solo guitar...actually, joe-listener often
compliments my act..but then joe-listener doesn't post here..
"STRNGMN123" <strng...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031029173523...@mb-m14.aol.com...
John B
high end sound card and aftermarket styles. You need to check out the Yahoo
BIAB forum.
It can be done well. Jack is right about Roland sound canvas but a good
card and external synth is a completely diffferent world.
This guy is a wealth of knowledge:
"Rick Ross" <rick...@mail.usa.com> wrote in message
news:qH_nb.133588$qj6.9...@news1.news.adelphia.net...
Joe Listener
> compliments my act..but then joe-listener doesn't post here..
>
He's onto me! Quick! Run away! Run away!
RobertH446
my seductive, incurably romantic, ultimately
uninventive guitar playing lays on top of it in coffee shops and restaurants
around my area weekly..
Seductive???
what kind of joints you playing in???
hahaha
bob
Jack A. Zucker
news:13%nb.85023$W77....@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
> If you want to get serious about it, you need a decent external synth, a
> high end sound card and aftermarket styles. You need to check out the
Yahoo
> BIAB forum.
>
> It can be done well. Jack is right about Roland sound canvas but a good
> card and external synth is a completely diffferent world.
Actually, it seems that the software synths have caught up and even
surpassed many of the external ones. I wouldn't rule that out.
Jack A. Zucker
news:qH_nb.133588$qj6.9...@news1.news.adelphia.net...
drums
> only...backed off to floppies and played through an old Kawai combo
> sequencer sound module...my seductive, incurably romantic, ultimately
> uninventive guitar playing lays on top of it in coffee shops and
restaurants
> around my area weekly...it's cheesy but functional...the trick is to use
the
> simplest possible harmony for the tunes..it can't beat real bass and
> drums..but some venues can only handle a solo..and it's better than
killing
> yourself with three hours of solo guitar
I respect that but I think folks should have a goal to work towards making 3
hours of solo guitar something enjoyable. To me, playing a gig with BIAB is
too much like a day gig! :-)
Omcha
to par.
Where else can you find a group to "comp" while you practice for hours on the
same set of chords?
But using it on a real job - well - I see people do it all the time and it
sounds absolutely horrible to me.
But I have to tell you - when playing for dancers, It don't matter what
instrument you have. A damn old cardboard box would suffice. Anyway that's the
way it is out here in the wild west!
Thank goodness we have KMHD and Portland, where many folks demand real
musicians and good jazz!
Jess
Joe Finn
Jerry: Sorry, but this is a pet peeve of mine. The use of sequencers in live
performance has become more and more common in recent years but let's face
it, the sound quality is really awful and the "canned" quality of the
presentation is the height of absurdity.
Biab is good for a lot of things but it does not rise to the level of
broadcast quality sound or performance characteristics. It's great for
practicing, demos and lead sheets but actual performance is something beyond
the capability of software. Performance requires humanity. Everything else
is karaoke.
........joe
--
Visit me on the web www.joefinn.net
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
Pt
a singer.
No bass or drums.
I downloaded a midi player then downloaded midi files of the songs I
wanted to play.
The midi player allowed me to edit out any instruments I wanted so I
usually kept drums, bass and piano and recorded it from the computer
to a cassette.
Then I plugged in to the PA at the jams and it worked well and sounded
good.
Pt
Jack A. Zucker
> performance has become more and more common in recent years but let's face
> it, the sound quality is really awful and the "canned" quality of the
> presentation is the height of absurdity.
Here, here...Not only that but it contributes to the demise of the
live band. Think of how things have changed. When I was a kid, it was
awesome if you could hire a live band for a party. Today, it's awesome
of you can hire a live d-j.
Myth
"Jack A. Zucker" <j...@jackzucker.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:2f33c43f.03103...@posting.google.com...
I don't know if it's the same in the US, but here in Denmark it has become
popular to rent a jukebox with the corniest crap from the 50's & 60's as
party-entertainment. Arrrrgh........
Unknown
wrote:
> Performance requires humanity. Everything else is karaoke.
Ding ding ding! Well said.
Tim
http://timberens.com
A Website for Guitarists
Learn something...Have some fun
timb at erinet dot com
Kevin Van Sant
wrote in message <qH_nb.133588$qj6.9...@news1.news.adelphia.net> :
>..but some venues can only handle a solo..and it's better than killing
>yourself with three hours of solo guitar...
Are you kidding? Guitar is a great solo instrument. Playing solo is
also GREAT practice. A guy looking to get better will gain so much
more from dealing with three hour solo gig than noodling for the same
time with lame tracks. How is a solo gig killing yourself anyway?
It's not that hard to make unaccompanied music on the guitar.
_________________________________________
Kevin Van Sant
jazz guitar
http://www.kevinvansant.com
to buy my CDs, listen to sound clips, and get more info.
Alternate site for recent soundclips
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/kevinvansant_music.htm
JP
nowadays.
I have an separate pc that is setup to purely run gigastudio. Using well
multisampled instruments. With modules, i generally find one or two sounds
that have become the sole worth of those modules...sound canvas...i have a
hard time finding anything good to say.
I think band in abox midi files a shocking. But, they do cover the basics
ok. In terms of using these in any "real" tracking situation ..forget it.
We spend ages programing midi files to be realistic. And, often that midi
file will not be as useful when mapped to another device..another device
other than that which it was created on. General midi...is a good unisveral
solution..but i dont think it is seriously designed for scrutinising
ears...A lot of sysex data or even CC data is lost depending on the sound
device.
In regards to using them live. Horses for coarses.
It was fun when it started in the early 80's. I got my first sequencer
around 1983 .a one track sequencer from Yamaha. MSQ 01 i think from memory.
The midi (mc500) got flogged in the ninetees in a tavern/pub /bar situation.
But these types of gigs are really aimed at entertainment...not really any
musical value...more important to have a good vocalist that can communicate
to the crowed rather than sing well and not communicate. Midi and the duo
acts that have the horbn sections coming out the PAs ...i think the general
public is not impressed by it anymore. In fact i think its contributed to a
demise in the publics perception of live music.
In regard to Jazz....i dont think there is any use for it in any "Jazz'
situation.
I see a lot of acts nowadays playing in varius situations with their backing
tracks. Mostly nowadays people seem to be mixing their midi tracks down to
mini cd or something similar for convenience. But its
lifeless...boring..for me.
But...if thats waht you have to do to compete and make the rent....go for
it.
But...personally, I d rather do something else as its sucks the life out of
my love for music and guitar.
my 2 cents
JP
Joe Finn
<Tim Berens> wrote in message news:3fa113e9...@news.core.com...
> On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 00:29:48 -0500, "Joe Finn" <J...@JoeFinn.net>
> wrote:
>
> > Performance requires humanity. Everything else is karaoke.
>
> Ding ding ding! Well said.
>
> Tim
There's a story here on the grapevine about a local piano player. He happens
to be a really good player and has extensive repertoire in classical, jazz,
pop etc. Apparently he brought a drum machine with him to a solo piano gig.
I know this sounds really, really stoopid but he actually loves the drum
machine. He plugged the box in and played along with it.
He was approached by the owner of the place and told to keep playing but
turn off the machine.
To many of us sequencing is the antithesis of music. ....joe
Joe Finn
"Kevin Van Sant" <kvan...@pobox.com> wrote >
> Guitar is a great solo instrument. Playing solo is
> also GREAT practice. A guy looking to get better will gain so much
> more from dealing with three hour solo gig than noodling for the same
> time with lame tracks. How is a solo gig killing yourself anyway?
> It's not that hard to make unaccompanied music on the guitar.
> _________________________________________
> Kevin Van Sant
I agree with Kevin on this. I look forward to my solo gigs more and more. I
can do things with time, style and harmony as a soloist that I can't do in a
group setting. I also like being able to hear the subtlety of each and every
note I play. .........joe
Jurupari
>surpassed many of the external ones. I wouldn't rule that out.
for real. The eridol was impressive.
If you take what biab gives you it wont be much, but if you stick to bass and
drums and tweak it a bit, and take time to write some endings or intos if you
want them, or write arrangements in, and use a good external module, it would
beat the luck of the draw from the union hall, maybe.
If you go back and blow some of your own comping, it could be better than that.
I don't mess with it much that way, but I do know how.
Back in the dawn of midi, I worked professionally with sequences I wrote - even
had a vocal processer that would give me harmonies I wrote in.
Clif Kuplen
Charlie Robinson
>can do things with time, style and harmony as a soloist that I can't do in a
>group setting. I also like being able to hear the subtlety of each and every
>note I play. .........joe
>
I play quite a few solo gigs and have never used any type of backing. Right now
I take calls in the daytime from a place that features a lot of different acts,
when one of them cancels they get me to play solo guitar. Lately I've been
trying to see how long I can play just single note lines at fast tempos without
any chords. In that context you hear and correct immediately any technical
problems that you might be having. With a group or other backing those little
"glitches" are sometimes masked so you don't realize that they are happening.
Charlie Robinson Jazz Guitarist, Composer
You can hear me online at: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/robinsonchazz
or http://www.soundclick.com/bands/rmmgj_music.htm
Gerry
Zucker <j...@jackzucker.com> wrote:
I see no direct correlation between the advent of sequencers in live
performance and the "demise of the live band". The joints don't have
the money for a live band. I think if they weren't hiring a solo with
a sequencer they'd be hiring a solo without a sequencer.
Gerry
> > Performance requires humanity. Everything else is karaoke.
>
> Ding ding ding! Well said.
Karaoke IS humanity. Karaoke isn't a replacement for a band, it's a
replacement for a jukebox or DJ.
Gerry
wrote:
> There's a story here on the grapevine about a local piano player. He
> happens to be a really good player and has extensive repertoire in
> classical, jazz, pop etc. Apparently he brought a drum machine with
> him to a solo piano gig. I know this sounds really, really stoopid
> but he actually loves the drum machine. He plugged the box in and
> played along with it.
>
> He was approached by the owner of the place and told to keep playing
> but turn off the machine.
>
> To many of us sequencing is the antithesis of music.
So it seems. I can't believe even a simple drum machine is the
paradigm of evil. Synthesizers, sequencers, drum machines. I'm
surprised no one is carping about amplifiers and truss rods as more
modern poison.
Gerry
<juru...@aol.com> wrote:
> Back in the dawn of midi, I worked professionally with sequences I
> wrote - even had a vocal processer that would give me harmonies I
> wrote in.
But then you found Christianity?
Bob Agnew
Rick.
Rick puts on quite a show. It's like an electronic version of the one man
band, only very tastefull. Really quite impressive.
"Rick Ross" <rick...@mail.usa.com> wrote in message
news:qH_nb.133588$qj6.9...@news1.news.adelphia.net...
bob r
222...@adelphia.net.invalid wrote on 10/30/03 10:45 AM:
> I can't believe even a simple drum machine is the
> paradigm of evil. Synthesizers, sequencers, drum machines. I'm
> surprised no one is carping about amplifiers and truss rods as more
> modern poison.
Give it enough time.
--
Bob Russell
http://www.bobrussellguitar.com
CD available: http://www.cdbaby.com/bobrussell
Joe Finn
"Gerry" <222...@adelphia.net.invalid> wrote >
> I see no direct correlation between the advent of sequencers in live
> performance and the "demise of the live band". The joints don't have
> the money for a live band. I think if they weren't hiring a solo with
> a sequencer they'd be hiring a solo without a sequencer.
I'm not so sure that this is about money only. I've heard from someone in
the business that some of these djs get over $10,000 per night.
Automation [djs, karaoke, sequencers, etc.] does indeed put us musicians out
of work. I see it all the time. ......joe
Omcha
played a gig last week on the coast (4 pieces). Playing in the other room, was
a guy with more computers, amps and speakers than a music store. A lady came up
to our group, complimented us, and said "Thank God you don't use that computer
crap like they do in that other room!" I said "Are you a musician?" - She said
"Heavens no - But I know real music when I hear it!"
So looks like there is some "hope" on the horizon!
Jess
Kevin Van Sant
<20031030120431...@mb-m26.aol.com> :
>This will make your day group............. At least it did mine........We
>played a gig last week on the coast (4 pieces). Playing in the other room, was
>a guy with more computers, amps and speakers than a music store. A lady came up
>to our group, complimented us, and said "Thank God you don't use that computer
>crap like they do in that other room!" I said "Are you a musician?" - She said
>"Heavens no - But I know real music when I hear it!"
bless her!
Kevin Van Sant
<222...@adelphia.net.invalid> wrote in message
<301020030742462867%222...@adelphia.net.invalid> :
>
>I see no direct correlation between the advent of sequencers in live
>performance and the "demise of the live band". The joints don't have
>the money for a live band. I think if they weren't hiring a solo with
>a sequencer they'd be hiring a solo without a sequencer.
It's not as much the *demise* of live music as much as the reduction
of employment. Bar/restaurant owners often don't really know the
difference between mediocrity and superior art. It's all just varying
degrees of sound in a way to them. But they know that if they've
been paying $300 to get a full sounding trio and suddenly some chump
with BIAB comes in and offers to give him a "full trio" or even a
"quartet" for just $100 then he's got an easy decision to make. And
now only one musician has a paying job instead of three. AND.. a
really bad precedent has been set.
Rick Ross
"RobertH446" <rober...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031029221032...@mb-m11.aol.com...
Rick Ross
thing..for me..since my conditioning level is low...three hours would have
me quite sore...that's what I meant..
"Kevin Van Sant" <kvan...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:cs82qvghukcsko9lk...@4ax.com...
Rick Ross
"Bob Agnew" <rag...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:Doaob.84954$vj2.49509@fed1read06...
Jack A. Zucker
know make 2x what any live band would make.
"Joe Finn" <J...@JoeFinn.net> wrote in message
news:3fa13...@corp.newsgroups.com...
Kevin Van Sant
wrote in message <q7cob.9$Bf7....@news1.news.adelphia.net> :
>I can see how my comment can get inferentially twisted ...solo is a great
>thing..for me..since my conditioning level is low...three hours would have
>me quite sore...that's what I meant..
Only the first time or two, that's how you build your conditioning.
tomw
222...@adelphia.net.invalid says...
> > To many of us sequencing is the antithesis of music.
>
> So it seems. I can't believe even a simple drum machine is the
> paradigm of evil. Synthesizers, sequencers, drum machines. I'm
> surprised no one is carping about amplifiers and truss rods as more
> modern poison.
>
I'm with you. Ten years ago I would have sided with the Luddites, but at
this point it seems pretty obvious that the technology is legitimate in
it's own right. Djs are being hired by people who want djs, not people
who want bands. Some sequencers are cheesy: some musicians are cheesy.
Woo!
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
http://www.arts.cornell.edu/zeus/
Jurupari
...no, a house gig! That's almost enough to convert a body, though..
fl...@comcast.net
wrote:
>In article <301020030745282575%222...@adelphia.net.invalid>,
>222...@adelphia.net.invalid says...
>
>> > To many of us sequencing is the antithesis of music.
>>
>> So it seems. I can't believe even a simple drum machine is the
>> paradigm of evil. Synthesizers, sequencers, drum machines. I'm
>> surprised no one is carping about amplifiers and truss rods as more
>> modern poison.
>>
>
>I'm with you. Ten years ago I would have sided with the Luddites, but at
>this point it seems pretty obvious that the technology is legitimate in
>it's own right. Djs are being hired by people who want djs, not people
>who want bands. Some sequencers are cheesy: some musicians are cheesy.
>Woo!
I was at a wedding recently where there was a DJ and overheard a
conversation where a woman said 'The band is really good'.
I didn't know whether to slap my forehead, or hers.
Jack A. Zucker
technology and I have no fear of it as applied creatively to music. However,
BIAB midi files are not an example of the latter.
Sorry Gerry - There you go again. I'm going to call the Frase and have him
slap you.
Jaz
<fl...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3fa177e1....@news.interprise.net...
Joe Finn
> of employment.
Ain't it the truth. Here is a recent example. I played a wedding last month
[yes, the cat's out of the bag, I do play an occasional wedding ] and as we
were setting up a dj was also setting up across the room to take over when
the music was through. The trombone player observed, "Well, I guess there's
no possibility of overtime tonight." He could have used the extra bread and
so could I. ..........joe
Kevin Van Sant
wrote in message <3fa1a...@corp.newsgroups.com> :
>
>"Kevin Van Sant" <kvan...@pobox.com> wrote
>>
>> It's not as much the *demise* of live music as much as the reduction
>> of employment.
>
>
>Ain't it the truth. Here is a recent example. I played a wedding last month
>[yes, the cat's out of the bag, I do play an occasional wedding ] and as we
>were setting up a dj was also setting up across the room to take over when
>the music was through. The trombone player observed, "Well, I guess there's
>no possibility of overtime tonight." He could have used the extra bread and
>so could I. ..........joe
Maybe so, but you should be grateful that they didn't eliminate you
entirely. I've found this to be a more and more common situation at
weddings. They want a jazz band for the first couple of hours while
it's mellow then a DJ later when they want to rock out more. I
actually don't mind this at all. They could just hire a all purpose
GB band but usually the bands that rock well play pretty mediocre and
cheesy sounding jazz. I'm glad that people who hire me recognize and
value the real thing enough to want to include a legit jazz group in
addition to the DJ.
ANyway, the whole DJ issue isn't quite the same as the playing with
tracks issue, though they can have similar consequences.
Tasman
Gerry
wrote:
> > I see no direct correlation between the advent of sequencers in live
> > performance and the "demise of the live band". The joints don't have
> > the money for a live band. I think if they weren't hiring a solo with
> > a sequencer they'd be hiring a solo without a sequencer.
>
> I'm not so sure that this is about money only. I've heard from someone in
> the business that some of these djs get over $10,000 per night.
True enough. They'll hire anyone for 5k that will brink in 20k.
> Automation [djs, karaoke, sequencers, etc.] does indeed put us musicians out
> of work. I see it all the time.
In the general sense I agree. But I see no solos with sequencers
"replacing" quartets. I see them replacing other solos.
Gerry
<juru...@aol.com> wrote:
> >But then you found Christianity?
>
> ...no, a house gig! That's almost enough to convert a body, though..
Praise be!
Gerry
<j...@jackzucker.com> wrote:
> How did this topic morph to whether or not technology is legit? I love
> technology and I have no fear of it as applied creatively to music. However,
> BIAB midi files are not an example of the latter.
I agree completely. If you said it that way last time I don't think you
would have morphed the topic.
> Sorry Gerry...
Your apologies are welcomed.
William Barkin
"took over" after us...we played for cocktails...what's interesting to note
is that the couple specifically wanted jazz music AND dj music...I can't
fault them for wanting different sounds for they're wedding day...it's
they're wedding; they're choice...but the fact that they still wanted a
"live" jazz ensemble along with dj music pleases me...
-Bill
--------------------------
William Barkin - Fine Artist
Online Portfolio
http://www.bcn.net/~wbarkin
"Joe Finn" <J...@JoeFinn.net> wrote in message
news:3fa1a...@corp.newsgroups.com...