solo gigging with BIAB-is it possible?
Mark Kleinhaut
"ntk" <kh...@singnet.com.sg> wrote:
> I thought I would approach a small club here, to see whether they
would be
> interested in just me playing light jazz guitar accompanied by
> Band-in-a-Box. Has anybody any experience on doing a one-man gig with
> Band-in-a-box? I would like to hear about any potential problems I
may face.
> For example I think if people want to dance, and continue dancing
after a
> song, BIAB could pose a problem. Also, would the sound be acceptable
to an
> audience viz is it realistic enough to simulate a live band?
>
> If BIAB can be used for doing one-man shows, wouldn't it result in
better
> income [you don't have to share with other musicians] and easier-to-
get gigs
> [since the club needs to spend less on a band]?
>
>
How's your tolerance for scorn and ridicule when other musicians happen
into the room? Sorry, I know this is snobbish, but I think biab is
fine as a learning tool but sucks royally in performance. I do plenty
of solo gigs just on my own- Milli Vanilli R.I.P.
--
Mark Kleinhaut
Info and soundclips available at
www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Amphora.html
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Sean Andrews
with Mark, I wouldn't be caught dead with BOAB in public, unless
you used it in some unusual way, which would NOT include being
the back up for a soloist.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
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David Moss
"Sean Andrews" wrote...
> Gee, it'd probably be fine for a nursing home gig, but I agree
> with Mark, I wouldn't be caught dead with BOAB in public, unless
> you used it in some unusual way, which would NOT include being
> the back up for a soloist.
That's what you get for asking musicians whether a
computer program can replace musicians
Mark Guest
"ntk" <kh...@singnet.com.sg> wrote in message
news:8kfkfi$5fv$1...@violet.singnet.com.sg...
>
> If BIAB can be used for doing one-man shows, wouldn't it result in better
> income [you don't have to share with other musicians] and easier-to-get
gigs
> [since the club needs to spend less on a band]?
>
Aren't we all the musicians with whom you won't have to share the wealth?
And why would you want such a gig? Do you really want to lower club owners'
standards to a BIAB economy? Don't do it!!
Mark Guest
Jack A. Zucker
*TACKY*
Jack A. Zucker
Abersole tapes in the late '80s.
HORRIBLE
--
--
Jack A. Zucker
E-Mail: j...@jackzucker.com
Web : http://www.jackzucker.com
"Mark Guest" <MGu...@Muni-Net.com> wrote in message
news:8kg1sp$8jq$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net...
Thomas F Brown
as a listener I would rather hear you play just guitar without
the computer stuff. My personal preference. But if you want
people to dance, maybe the machine is a good idea.
In article <8kfnle$ulh$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Mark Kleinhaut <markkl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>In article <8kfkfi$5fv$1...@violet.singnet.com.sg>,
> "ntk" <kh...@singnet.com.sg> wrote:
>> I thought I would approach a small club here, to see whether they
>would be
>> interested in just me playing light jazz guitar accompanied by
>> Band-in-a-Box. Has anybody any experience on doing a one-man gig with
>> Band-in-a-box? I would like to hear about any potential problems I
>may face.
>> For example I think if people want to dance, and continue dancing
>after a
>> song, BIAB could pose a problem. Also, would the sound be acceptable
>to an
>> audience viz is it realistic enough to simulate a live band?
>>
>> If BIAB can be used for doing one-man shows, wouldn't it result in
>better
>> income [you don't have to share with other musicians] and easier-to-
>get gigs
>> [since the club needs to spend less on a band]?
>>
>>
Paul Craig Sanwald
: If BIAB can be used for doing one-man shows, wouldn't it result in better
: income [you don't have to share with other musicians] and easier-to-get gigs
: [since the club needs to spend less on a band]?
:
man, if you're worried about better income, you're in the wrong business.
If you want to make money join a cover band or something. Otherwise hire
some sidemen and enjoy interacting with other people as opposed to a
computer. it's one of the biggest joys of jazz.
--paul
ntk
interested in just me playing light jazz guitar accompanied by
Band-in-a-Box. Has anybody any experience on doing a one-man gig with
Band-in-a-box? I would like to hear about any potential problems I may face.
For example I think if people want to dance, and continue dancing after a
song, BIAB could pose a problem. Also, would the sound be acceptable to an
audience viz is it realistic enough to simulate a live band?
If BIAB can be used for doing one-man shows, wouldn't it result in better
Doug Allen
back up. Both used a pre-recorded cassette of tunes with good players on
the tracks. The tape was played through a large PA system and the
player's guitar amp was miked. It sounded impressive; about the same as
a tight band with a good sound engineer tweaking the audio board. Steve
Morse, at a club gig, and Frank Gamble, at a seminar, did this. Yeah,
they were playin' great!
TomLippinc
want to send me the money to pay my bills, go right ahead;
Tom Lippincott
606 N. 7th St.
Lantana, FL 33462
Bob Valentine
>I've heard people gig with automated back-up.
Yeah, its cheesy but it can work. Of course, it will work better
if you are a good looking female vocalist.
Tapes of real people is good, professionally sequenced midi
tracks probably okay, BIAB would be close to last (I guess the
worst is if you have BIAB play back
through the Adlib FM synth, or the PC speaker).
Rick Ross is the man to answer this question as an actual
practioner of the art.
>But if you want
>people to dance, maybe the machine is a good idea.
>
Shoot, you can go out and dance with them, or get drunk at the
bar.
Bob Valentine
RG
similar.
"Tacky", "Horrible", "Cheesy", "Taking food out of your fellow
musicians mouths" (or their baby's mouths), "wouldn't be caught dead",
etc...
My take is, it depends on your audience. If you're looking to perform
a 'concert' or to impress professional musicians, it's not gonna'
happen. If you're looking to provide some nice background music at a
reasonable price, go for it.
Take the time to 'arrange' your BIAB tunes a little. I use mostly
bass/drums accompaniment and only add piano, strings, and other
patches for color on the odd verse or chorus. Add intros and outros
where possible. Use the best snyth you can for the most realistic
sound, and mix the tunes down to some other medium so you eliminate
hauling a PC to the gig. (I use MDs).
Mix your set up a lot. I use a BIAB backing track for maybe every 4th
tune. I also do straight solo stuff, use a drum machine, and I've put
together additional backing tracks using just a 2nd guitar or a drum
machine/2nd guitar. All these tracks are on MD too. As the
collection grows, it gets pretty easy to accommodate 'standard'
requests.
Don't let the elites here dissuade you. Put together an hour of tunes
and play a couple of freebies (more heresy) to iron out the
technological kinks. If you find you enjoy it, go for some money gigs.
Then, if it starts working out, keep it to yourself and go back to
lurking.
Good luck!
-RG
On Wed, 12 Jul 2000 01:24:48 +0800, "ntk" <kh...@singnet.com.sg>
wrote:
Michael Ellenberger
where a quartet is overkill, one live musician with some
automated help can make for a good listening experience.
If you can "entertain" between songs all the better. I've
been pleasantly surprised by one-man-bands; once on a bay
cruise in Sarasota. The guy played guitar and sang with some
sequenced drums and accompaniment. I don't recall if he played
a footpedal bass or if it was sequenced. I only expected
dinner so the addition of music was a bonus!
Mike
--
Mike Ellenberger
Listen to some soundclips at
http://home.att.net/~grumpmeister/MikesJazzPage.html
Joe Finn
ntk wrote:
> I thought I would approach a small club here, to see whether they would be
> interested in just me playing light jazz guitar accompanied by
> Band-in-a-Box.
I reply to this suggestion only to condemn it. If the budget does not include
sidemen play the gig solo. BIAB live? You gotta be shittin' me. What's next ,
jazz guitar karioke? joe
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Mark Kleinhaut
survive in this world, but saying you do it to pay the bills is the
same thing a prostitute would say for justification. I regret this
crude analogy, but tell me how it's different. I'm not interested in
paying your bills, but if I happened into some restaruant or pub where
you were playing, I'd be the first one to come up and stick $10 in your
tip jar IF you'd agree to shut off the machine.
Mark Kleinhaut
grumpm...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> Agreed. You won't play the BlueNote but for small venues
> where a quartet is overkill, one live musician with some
> automated help can make for a good listening experience.
> If you can "entertain" between songs all the better. I've
> been pleasantly surprised by one-man-bands; once on a bay
> cruise in Sarasota. The guy played guitar and sang with some
> sequenced drums and accompaniment. I don't recall if he played
> a footpedal bass or if it was sequenced. I only expected
> dinner so the addition of music was a bonus!
>
> Mike
I think this boils down to a question of whether this is art or
entertainment. There is plenty of bad art around that makes for good
entertainement, and sometimes entertainment can be done so well that it
is indeed an art. But good art that is entertaining? Rare, grab it
when you find it.
--
Gene Mills
>survive in this world, but saying you do it to pay the bills is the
>same thing a prostitute would say for justification. I regret this
>crude analogy, but tell me how it's different
So, tell me, how is a day job different or more honorable?
Victor Magnani
> In article <20000712023426...@ng-fh1.aol.com>,
> tomli...@aol.com (TomLippinc) wrote:
> > if any of you guys who think it's dishonorable to do gigs with midi
> sequences
> > want to send me the money to pay my bills, go right ahead;
> >
> > Tom Lippincott
> > 606 N. 7th St.
> > Lantana, FL 33462
> >
> >
> Sorry Tom, I'm sure you do everything you can (or need) to do to
> survive in this world, but saying you do it to pay the bills is the
> same thing a prostitute would say for justification. I regret this
> crude analogy, but tell me how it's different. I'm not interested in
> paying your bills, but if I happened into some restaruant or pub where
> you were playing, I'd be the first one to come up and stick $10 in your
> tip jar IF you'd agree to shut off the machine.
Man, this sounds really elitist. It's totally cold to use this
prostitution analogy. I'll not take up the argument here, you could say
that any job "is just like prostitution" if you only do it to "pay the
bills". Hell, playing on a jingle is "just like prostitution". Do you
think that's "below" what someone should do?
If you provide a service that people are willing to pay you to do, do it
(hmmm, maybe legalized prostitution wouldn't be so bad, either). If that
service includes playing guitar, more power to you. If you also happen to
have a good time doing it, you're totally rockin'.
Peace
Victor
Mark Kleinhaut
I think any job we do just for the money is prostitution of sorts.
It's no different than my day job or you doing jingles or whatever we
do IF we do it just for the money. I don't hear anyone saying doing
biab assisted suicide (oops, I meant gigs)is fun or pleasurable, only
that it is commercially viable.
While it is cold to use the hooker analogy, I made that analogy on
purpose because of certain parallels between sex and music- like they
are both about interpersonal emotion and expression (I know I'm leaving
out things like procreation and cybersex). But my point is that
daygigging as an electrician, a doctor, a teacher or whatever serve
different purposes in the grand scheme of things than what the arts do
(or I feel should do). So, to sell out your art or to sell out to your
day-gig, to me, has very different implications.
If I could earn a living as an artist I'd do it without hesitation.
But in this world, most people can only pay their bills if they make it
into their vocation. Music as a vocation is the same as sex as a
vocation, an utter debasement of what it could and should be. I find
this condition very sad, mind you, and get very depressed thinking
about our crummy culture, or lack thereof, that forces this situation
upon all of us.
I wish to say I'm sorry to Tom- because I was being an asshole just to
throw this comment in his face the way I did. I feel that you, and
anyone else who has to for one reason or another use biab on the
bandstand, are the victims of our crass and immoral society.
Still, I don't undertand why you can't just play the gig solo.
P.S. I'm no angel and have been known on occasion to whore around town
a little (musically speaking, of course)
Joe Finn
Mark Kleinhaut wrote:
> I'm not interested in paying your bills, but if I happened into some
> restaruant or pub whereyou were playing, I'd be the first one to come up
> and stick $10 in yourtip jar IF you'd agree to shut off the machine.
I'll see your $10.00 and raise you another twenty. Turn off the machine....
RG
> tip jar IF you'd agree to shut off the machine.
10 bucks allows you to insult the performer? Nice. :-/
-RG
On Wed, 12 Jul 2000 16:13:22 GMT, Mark Kleinhaut
<markkl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>In article <20000712023426...@ng-fh1.aol.com>,
> tomli...@aol.com (TomLippinc) wrote:
>> if any of you guys who think it's dishonorable to do gigs with midi
>sequences
>> want to send me the money to pay my bills, go right ahead;
>>
>> Tom Lippincott
>> 606 N. 7th St.
>> Lantana, FL 33462
>>
>>
>Sorry Tom, I'm sure you do everything you can (or need) to do to
>survive in this world, but saying you do it to pay the bills is the
>same thing a prostitute would say for justification. I regret this
>crude analogy, but tell me how it's different. I'm not interested in
>paying your bills, but if I happened into some restaruant or pub where
>you were playing, I'd be the first one to come up and stick $10 in your
>tip jar IF you'd agree to shut off the machine.
>
Mark Kleinhaut
want's in a manner in which I'd like to assume he finds preferable, and
if the owner/manager gave him shit about it he'd be covered by saying
he was doing it "sans biab" at the request of a customer. Reminds me
of when I do the occasional jazz wedding and the groom says there's an
extra C-note in the deal if I refuse to take requests (which is exactly
what I told Mick Goodrick when he played at my weddding).
--
Chris Parsons
RG wrote in message ...
>RMMGJ went down this path a few months ago and the response was
>similar.
>
>"Tacky", "Horrible", "Cheesy", "Taking food out of your fellow
>musicians mouths" (or their baby's mouths), "wouldn't be caught dead",
>etc...
>
>My take is, it depends on your audience. If you're looking to perform
>a 'concert' or to impress professional musicians, it's not gonna'
>happen. If you're looking to provide some nice background music at a
>reasonable price, go for it.
>
>Take the time to 'arrange' your BIAB tunes a little. I use mostly
>bass/drums accompaniment and only add piano, strings, and other
>patches for color on the odd verse or chorus. Add intros and outros
>where possible. Use the best snyth you can for the most realistic
>sound, and mix the tunes down to some other medium so you eliminate
>hauling a PC to the gig. (I use MDs).
I saw a "band" once that consisted of a guy on guitar, and women singing,
and a Mac with BIAB. Now granted, their song selections were cheesy, but
the computer and sequenced backing tracks weren't that bad. Had they
produced more professional sounding (less canned) backing tracks it would
have been much better.
I think that if you produce some quality arrangements with real instruments,
quality synths, or both, one-man-band acts can be suitable in some
situations. I don't think you can expect to "bring down the house", but it
can work very well when the music isn't necessarily the main attraction:
coffee shops, dinning rooms, hotel lobbies, weddings, and small bars where
you can talk with your audience and "put on a show" are all good (at least,
those are the kinds of places that a one-man-act wouldn't strike me as at
all odd).
Bottom line: It is limited -- the backing tracks can't vamp a little longer
while you explore some new solo motif for the first time -- but it can be
done well. I also like RG's idea of not using backup for all of the tunes.
Throw in some solo stuff, and different kinds of backup (sequenced synths,
recorded instruments, combinations, just bass, whatever).
If you're really clever, and have the proper equipment, you can put together
a setup that lets you hear a tick in an earpiece. That way you can be
acompanied by a really sparse piano, for example. The piano could have long
rests, build-ups, etc, and will be "on-cue" if your following the tick.
-Chris Parsons.
Mark Kleinhaut
thought we're all here to talk about jazz and, more specifically, jazz
guitar.
Jack A. Zucker
Since BIAB has a sequencing option and can produce .wav files, why not just
bring a tape recorder to the gig and no instrument. Just push the play
button and go have a drink.
Chris Parsons
Mark Kleinhaut wrote in message <8kih4a$t6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>>[lots 'o snip]
>Britney Spears plays to a track also, and the kids just love it. But I
>thought we're all here to talk about jazz and, more specifically, jazz
>guitar.
Scofield used sample loops and sequences a couple weeks ago when I saw him
in Toronto. What's the big deal? Part of the drumming was real, and part
was sequenced. The drummer was effectively playing with backing tracks.
Milli Vanilli didn't actually do anything but dance and lip-sync -- big
difference. And, Britney Spears does sing live, it's just that she's
singing overtop of a recording of herself (doubling the part). Backing
tracks are common because audiences expect to hear a live sound that's as
big as the sound on the bands album -- backing tracks accomplish this.
Anyway....
I was simply suggesting some ways to make passable backing tracks for a solo
musician, be it a jazz guitarist or other. I don't think there's anything
wrong with performing this way if the performer can pull it off. With the
right stage presence and showmanship I think it can work. It may turn out
to be a bit of a lounge act, but there are plenty of people who still pay to
see those, so who cares.
If you're having fun, and your audience enjoys what your doing, your
succeeding. If there happens to be an uppity musician in the audience
giving you dirty looks for being what they think is a poser, then they're
welcome to leave. I've never heard of a venue forcing the audience to stay
and listen to the performer.
-Chris Parsons
PS: I can help you with your backing tracks if you want, Mark. :-)
RG
You're right, it's a compliment. Say Hi to Mick for me.
-RG
On Wed, 12 Jul 2000 18:56:27 GMT, Mark Kleinhaut
<markkl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >Mark Kleinhaut
>> >Info and soundclips available at
>> >www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Amphora.html
>> >
>> >
>> >Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>> >Before you buy.
>>
>>
Jonathan Byrd
>
> > I'd be the first one to come up and stick $10 in your
> > tip jar IF you'd agree to shut off the machine.
>
> 10 bucks allows you to insult the performer? Nice. :-/
Is it an insult? It could be just as easily construed as a compliment.
When provided the option, I always choose to believe I am being
complimented. (It works either way - even if I am being insulted,
nothing pisses off the other person more than taking their insult as a
compliment. ;-)
I'd say it boils down to this: If you can play live with nonhuman
accompaniment and feel good about doing it, the matter is resolved.
For me personally, I considered it, and decided that I couldn't do it.
If I were asked specifically to play live along with nonhuman
accompaniment, I'd have to politely refuse the opportunity. Because I
can afford to turn down a gig that doesn't sit right with me, it would
be a debasement of my artistic values for me to take it (though not much
of a debasement - my artistic values are already in de basement ;-). If
I needed the dough to feed my family, of course my values would be
structured differently. In that case it would be selfish for me to
refuse the gig, regardless of any relatively petty artistic misgivings I
may have.
--
Jonathan Byrd Campus Box 8039
j...@isu.edu Idaho State University
(208) 282-4256 Pocatello, Idaho, USA 83209
Jonathan Byrd
>
> And, Britney Spears does sing live, it's just that she's
> singing overtop of a recording of herself (doubling the part).
... and she dances at the same time. Ever tried to sing and dance at
the same time? Talk about difficult.
Gene Mills
marvelous players demoing all types of gear using backing tracks. I saw
ronnie foster and mike o'neal at the CADD booth kicking ass with a cheesy
backing track. The tracks were not great, but the playing was fantastic.
likewise with Robert Conti, who by the way was doing a hotel lounge gig for
years using "horrible" backing tracks. Is it shitty in comparison to
breathing humans, of course. Does the idea deserve the dogging that it's
getting? Nah.
I've even heard some guys have the balls to stick some waves on their
websites using BIAB. The nerve ;^)
Paul Craig Sanwald
:
: Scofield used sample loops and sequences a couple weeks ago when I saw him
: in Toronto. What's the big deal? Part of the drumming was real, and part
: was sequenced. The drummer was effectively playing with backing tracks.
: Milli Vanilli didn't actually do anything but dance and lip-sync -- big
: singing overtop of a recording of herself (doubling the part). Backing
: tracks are common because audiences expect to hear a live sound that's as
: big as the sound on the bands album -- backing tracks accomplish this.
:
and in jazz it's common and expected to hear interaction between the
soloist and rhythm section. Backing tracks don't effectively accomplish this.
I'm not too sure I buy the scofield argument either. It sounds to me like
he's augmenting his performance, where it sounds like the original poster's
sole purpose was to effectively replace the role of the musician.
To me this what this boils down to is a basic understanding of the
function of the different instruments in a group setting. if all the
poster wants to do is use the rhythm section as a background track,
where the bass walks 4 to the bar according to some algorithm and the
drummer gives us the 2 and the 4 all night long, then biab is fine.
unfortunately, that sort of attitude reveals a misunderstanding of the
function of these instruments in jazz, that is, to respond to and
support the soloist in what ultimately is a group conversation.
using a computer to replace the functions of other musicians robs us
(the listeners) of what (to me at least) is 95% of jazz. If the point
isn't to play jazz, or use a computer to replace other musicians, then
I personally don't have a problem with it. It might sound to the casual
listener like jazz, but what it is might be different. Kinda like
chicken mcnuggets. they taste like chicken, but they could very well
be chopped up pieces of JonBenet Ramsey for all we know.
--paul
peatea
Les Paul made his way to fame doubling with a machine.
I personally find it harder to play along with mechanical music.
Maybe you could practice to the muzak on elevators.
Hey! That's a cool idea. Elevator Gigs. :)
Pt
Nazodesu
<ttc1...@taconic.net> wrote:
> Mark Kleinhaut wrote:
>
> > I'm not interested in paying your bills, but if I happened into some
> > restaruant or pub whereyou were playing, I'd be the first one to come up
> > and stick $10 in yourtip jar IF you'd agree to shut off the machine.
>
> I'll see your $10.00 and raise you another twenty. Turn off the machine....
Hell yeah! I'll pay you 10 bucks to put down your axe and take up the
clarinet. And I'll pay you 30 bucks for head--how's that for the
prostitution angle?
What the hell are y'all talking about! You'd rather have lame oldies
on a tape system or the local radio station rather than hearing at
least ONE musicians perform whatever the hell he likes on whatever the
hell instruments please him? Not me.
Jeez, there are other bars. I'll pay you 10 bucks to go drink in
another...
--
The storm starts when the drops start dropping. When the drops stop dropping
the storm starts stopping.
John S. Clifford
> Mark Kleinhaut wrote:
>
> > In article <20000712023426...@ng-fh1.aol.com>,
> > tomli...@aol.com (TomLippinc) wrote:
> > > if any of you guys who think it's dishonorable to do gigs with midi
> > sequences
> > > want to send me the money to pay my bills, go right ahead;
> > >
> > > Tom Lippincott
> > > 606 N. 7th St.
> > > Lantana, FL 33462
> > >
> > >
> > Sorry Tom, I'm sure you do everything you can (or need) to do to
> > survive in this world, but saying you do it to pay the bills is the
> > same thing a prostitute would say for justification. I regret this
> > crude analogy, but tell me how it's different. I'm not interested in
> > paying your bills, but if I happened into some restaruant or pub where
> > you were playing, I'd be the first one to come up and stick $10 in your
> > tip jar IF you'd agree to shut off the machine.
>
> Man, this sounds really elitist. It's totally cold to use this
> prostitution analogy. I'll not take up the argument here, you could say
> that any job "is just like prostitution" if you only do it to "pay the
> bills". Hell, playing on a jingle is "just like prostitution". Do you
> think that's "below" what someone should do?
>
> If you provide a service that people are willing to pay you to do, do it
> (hmmm, maybe legalized prostitution wouldn't be so bad, either). If that
> service includes playing guitar, more power to you. If you also happen to
> have a good time doing it, you're totally rockin'.
>
> Peace
> Victor
So what's wrong with prostitution?
John C.
Michael Schuler
it took for him to come up with backing tracks like this? He might also
have been using a mix based on studio tapes of one of his albums...
Doug Allen wrote:
> I've seen two pro guitar players do solo performances using "canned"
> back up. Both used a pre-recorded cassette of tunes with good players on
> the tracks. The tape was played through a large PA system and the
> player's guitar amp was miked. It sounded impressive; about the same as
> a tight band with a good sound engineer tweaking the audio board. Steve
> Morse, at a club gig, and Frank Gamble, at a seminar, did this. Yeah,
> they were playin' great!
--
*************************************************
Michael Schuler
CAD Manager
City of Seattle - Facility Services Division
Phone 206.864.0404
Fax 206.684.0525
Email michael...@ci.seattle.wa.us
*************************************************
Happy computers are all alike;
every unhappy computer is unhappy in its own way.
*************************************************
TomLippinc
Mark;
No offense taken to your comments; I was actually feeling bad for having
hastily written and sent that rather curt message of mine. I can understand
why you and a lot of the other folks here would balk at the idea of playing
music, specifically jazz, with sequences. Just for the record; I've never done
a gig using BIAB as the "background tracks", and I have only on very rare
occasion done a solo gig with sequences (that idea really does seem a little
too cheesy to me even in the name of paying my rent, so I'll avoid it if I can,
plus I love playing solo guitar so much that I try to do that as much as I
can). I have done lots of gigs with sequences, but most of them have been gigs
where I wasn't the leader and thus didn't have any control over or say in the
matter. I DO have a steady duo gig with a percussionist/pianist that I've had
for a while now where we are more or less "co-leaders" and where we play quite
a bit (but not exclusively) with sequences. The two of us do a good bit of
playing without the sequences, but quite frankly, if we never used sequences we
wouldn't keep the gig (nor would we have gotten the gig in the first place),
and it's my bread and butter; I wouldn't be able to make ends meet without it.
Do I consider this gig "high art"? No, but I try to make it as good and honest
of a musical experience for the audience and myself as I can within the
limitations of the gig. Am I a "musical prostitute"? Perhaps, but if so, I'm
not ashamed of this. With all that said, I happen to not think there is
anything inherently "wrong" or "inferior" about synthesizers, effects, midi, or
sequencers that detract from the "purity" of any musical style. They are all
tools, the application of technology toward making music, the same as plucking
stretched strings across wood or beating on a hollow log. I don't have a whole
lot of "worldly" achievments that I can be proud of, but I'm very proud of the
fact that I've always made my living as a musician; it's the only thing I've
ever been "good" enough at to make a living doing, anyway.
Tom Lippincott
Tom Walls
They are all
>tools, the application of technology toward making music, the same as
plucking
>stretched strings across wood or beating on a hollow log.
Well said.
snip
I'm very proud of the
>fact that I've always made my living as a musician
As you should be. More power to you.
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
http://www.arts.cornell.edu/zeus/
Tom Walls
>
>RG wrote:
>>
>> > I'd be the first one to come up and stick $10 in your
>> > tip jar IF you'd agree to shut off the machine.
>>
>
>Is it an insult? It could be just as easily construed as a compliment.
IMHO it's neither. It's just another insensitive annoying thing a customer is
likely to do. "Hey, no machine; no gig, man! Please return to your seat."
Max
>>RG wrote:
>>> > I'd be the first one to come up and stick $10 in your
>>> > tip jar IF you'd agree to shut off the machine.
And I'd stick a 20 in your hand if you'd **** right off and quit
hassling me. Grief like this I need not.
Karl G. Helmer
see They Might Be Giants in a tiny bar. They were just starting out and
were playing along to backing tapes. (In case you don't know, TMBG, are
just two guys). They were doing a great show and about half way through
some guy in front started yelling for a request. Finally, at the
break between songs, one of the musicians looked at they guy and said,
"Man, we're playing to tapes here! We can't DO requests". I think the
guy was too drunk to notice that there was no bass player or drummer
because you could see it slowly dawn on the guy that, no in fact they
couldn't do requests.
made me laugh anyway,
Karl
Mark Kleinhaut
are all
> tools, the application of technology toward making music, the same as
plucking
have a whole
proud of the
> fact that I've always made my living as a musician; it's the only
thing I've
> ever been "good" enough at to make a living doing, anyway.
>
> Tom Lippincott
>
too easy to fire off a post without really thinking about it- a little
like improvising, wouldn't you say? I'd really like to hear some of
your solo playing. Also, how's that album coming along. You owe me a
copy, remember?
I've probably come accross as a purist and an elitist, among other
dirty words, but actually I have no problem whatsoever with synths and
electronic instuments as played by people- like Zawinule and Brecker,
among others. Chorus and distortion are not my cup of tea, but I agree
that they are valid tools and if used artistically, that's fine and
dandy.
Personally, I'll never warm up to backing tracks, especially in jazz,
but I understand why it's done. At least in your duo gig the two of
you can interact within the contraints of the backing tracks- so that
is far better than the solo scenario.
Good luck
--
Joey Goldstein
really enjoyed what he and his partner were doing. The arrangements were
really musical and the choice of tunes was great. From Steely Dan to
Duke. It is not a jazz gig but some real nice jazz was played that night anyways.
Like all things it depends on who is doing it and what their intentions are.
Performing with bad sequences is a bad thing. Performing with good
sequences is not as good as performing with good musicians but it can
still be pretty good. It might even be better than performing with bad musicians.
Performing just with BIAB would be a complete drag. BIAB is not a
sequencer. It is a random pattern generator and the patterns it
generates are rarely very musical. Often the chordal embellishments and
bass lines simply suck. Unless you are an absolute wiz with the Style
Maker there is no way to get a decent arrangement out of BIAB. Even then
I don't think it could be done.
On the other hand, a good arranger like Tom can make a decent
sequencer/synth rig sing.
--
Regards:
Joey Goldstein
Guitarist/Jazz Recording Artist/Teacher
Home Page: http://webhome.idirect.com/~joegold
Email: <joegold AT idirect DOT com>
Victor Magnani
> While it is cold to use the hooker analogy, I made that analogy on
> purpose because of certain parallels between sex and music-
Parallels between sex and music?? Makes me think you're doing one or the
other wrong. ;-)
Just a joke.
> Music as a vocation is the same as sex as a
> vocation, an utter debasement of what it could and should be.
I think this is a little extreme. There are lots of other, valid uses of
music which don't fall under the "artistic expression" banner. Folk music,
for example.
Not concert-recreations-of-actual-authentic-recorded-by-Peter-Gabriel folk
music, but people sitting around singing songs for the fun of it. People
would gather together, play music, sing, dance and have a good time.
Similarly, playing weddings, club dates, any other situation where the music
is serving a social function, seems to ba valid. I always thought my time
playing "Shout" for the seven-thousandth time was parallel to Bartok's
exploration of Hungarian folk music. (Kidding again, sort of). This is the
music of "everyman". Why?, I don't know. (My personal opinion is that lack
of music education in schools has deteriorated people's abilities to listen
to and appreciate anything other than the most base, vulgar crap. I think
we're in agreement as to the state of the publics tastes).
But, honestly, I get tremendous satisfaction from laying down a groove and
seeing a room full of people boogie (white man overbite, and all!). It's
different from playing "Ornithology" or "Goodbye Porkpie Hat", and it's
different from writing String Quartets, but just as valid a funciton of
music. I think music is a noble vocation. Playing music is a craft as well
as an art. Any opportunity to hone one's craft is a good one, if you
approach it with the right attitude.
It's damn hard to be a good craftsman, entertainer, leader, booker,
schmoozer. I have respect for people who can do these things well (and not
be a total prick -- I've worked for some awful leaders, too). And
sometimes, it's should just be fun to play.
Barney Kessel in and old Guitar Player mag said (and it may have come to him
from Charlie Christian, I don't remember) that there were only 3 reasons to
take you guitar out of it's case:
1) To learn something
2) To have fun
3) To make money
If you accept that "artisitic expression" falls under number one (learn
something about yourself, the world, the cosmos, to teach others what you
know/think - I guess I include teaching under learning), I've always been
hard pressed to come up with any other reasons. But I think all of the
above reasons are good ones.
Peace
Victor
Thomas F Brown
do it, but I wouldn't assume they're prostituting themselves.
Maybe they like the way it sounds.
In article <8kiddi$tnu$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Mark Kleinhaut <markkl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>In article <396CAB79...@netscape.net>,
> Victor Magnani <vmagn...@netscape.net> wrote:
>> Mark Kleinhaut wrote:
>>
>> > In article <20000712023426...@ng-fh1.aol.com>,
>> > tomli...@aol.com (TomLippinc) wrote:
>> > > if any of you guys who think it's dishonorable to do gigs with
>midi
>> > sequences
>> > > want to send me the money to pay my bills, go right ahead;
>> > >
>> > > Tom Lippincott
>> > > 606 N. 7th St.
>> > > Lantana, FL 33462
>> > >
>> > >
>> > Sorry Tom, I'm sure you do everything you can (or need) to do to
>> > survive in this world, but saying you do it to pay the bills is the
>> > same thing a prostitute would say for justification. I regret this
>> > crude analogy, but tell me how it's different. I'm not interested
>in
>> > paying your bills, but if I happened into some restaruant or pub
>where
>> > you were playing, I'd be the first one to come up and stick $10 in
>your
>> > tip jar IF you'd agree to shut off the machine.
>>
>> Man, this sounds really elitist. It's totally cold to use this
>> prostitution analogy. I'll not take up the argument here, you could
>say
>> that any job "is just like prostitution" if you only do it to "pay the
>> bills". Hell, playing on a jingle is "just like prostitution". Do
>you
>> think that's "below" what someone should do?
>>
>> If you provide a service that people are willing to pay you to do, do
>it
>> (hmmm, maybe legalized prostitution wouldn't be so bad, either). If
>that
>> service includes playing guitar, more power to you. If you also
>happen to
>> have a good time doing it, you're totally rockin'.
>>
>> Peace
>> Victor
>>
>>
>I think I was being an asshole to say what I said, but not an elitist.
>I think any job we do just for the money is prostitution of sorts.
>It's no different than my day job or you doing jingles or whatever we
>do IF we do it just for the money. I don't hear anyone saying doing
>biab assisted suicide (oops, I meant gigs)is fun or pleasurable, only
>that it is commercially viable.
>
>While it is cold to use the hooker analogy, I made that analogy on
>purpose because of certain parallels between sex and music- like they
>are both about interpersonal emotion and expression (I know I'm leaving
>out things like procreation and cybersex). But my point is that
>daygigging as an electrician, a doctor, a teacher or whatever serve
>different purposes in the grand scheme of things than what the arts do
>(or I feel should do). So, to sell out your art or to sell out to your
>day-gig, to me, has very different implications.
>
>If I could earn a living as an artist I'd do it without hesitation.
>But in this world, most people can only pay their bills if they make it
>into their vocation. Music as a vocation is the same as sex as a
>vocation, an utter debasement of what it could and should be. I find
>this condition very sad, mind you, and get very depressed thinking
>about our crummy culture, or lack thereof, that forces this situation
>upon all of us.
>
>I wish to say I'm sorry to Tom- because I was being an asshole just to
>throw this comment in his face the way I did. I feel that you, and
>anyone else who has to for one reason or another use biab on the
>bandstand, are the victims of our crass and immoral society.
>
>Still, I don't undertand why you can't just play the gig solo.
>
>P.S. I'm no angel and have been known on occasion to whore around town
>a little (musically speaking, of course)
>
>--
>Mark Kleinhaut
Thomas F Brown
>Chris Parsons wrote:
>>
>> And, Britney Spears does sing live, it's just that she's
>> singing overtop of a recording of herself (doubling the part).
>
>the same time? Talk about difficult.
Hard enough just to sing at the same time.
Thomas F Brown
Billie Holiday was a whore. Ella Fitzgerald worked in a
whorehouse. Both great musicians. Case closed.
Tom Walls
icarusi
news:8kfkfi$5fv$1...@violet.singnet.com.sg...
> If BIAB can be used for doing one-man shows, wouldn't it result in
better
> income [you don't have to share with other musicians] and
easier-to-get gigs
> [since the club needs to spend less on a band]?
I wouldn't consider using a sequencer live for 'organic' music, unless
it can randomize to overcome the mechanical 'feel'. One way round this
is to save your BIAB files as midi files and then open them in
Cakewalk and randomize using the Random Time.cal of the Run Cal in the
Edit menu. IIRC 3 ticks has usually worked although 5 is OK, 10 is
usually too much unless you want the sound of inebriation?
I think it's easier to work on arrangements on midi files in Cakewalk
rather than BIAB. You can split the instruments and rest them in
different sections to suit your performance. There are midi mixers
where you can mix and mute instruments in real time, or get a second
person to do it? You can also change tempo on the fly by assigning a
controller or program in accellarendo or decellarendo to suit.
Midi's like music, you can play it, or let it play you.
Icarusi
--
remove the 00 to reply
Jeff Gower
stopped me, so.....
My jazz singer and I played a gig last month at a new place, having
convinced the owner to check us out. We get there, play well, people
applauding, we're playing requests, etc.. Afterwards the owner said we
sounded great, BUT....we needed a "bigger sound" and that his regular
house musicians (a pop-jazzy guitar/voice duo) used a computer to sound
like a big band ("they sound like they had drums and horns and
everything! And get this: we can request any tune and they just punch a
few keys on the computer and let it play! It is great!!" - his exact
words). My singer and I just looked at each other and starting laughing
and shaking our heads. Needless to say, we won't be going back anytime
soon. Reminded me of the karaoke and DJ craze that swept the clubs (and
swept away the gigs!) several years ago (and still continues today).
Hey, if musicians want to use samplers/sequencers/computers/BIAB or
whatever the hell they use to "perform" music with these days, fine - I
won't bother with these folks. And there are plenty of people out there
who dig that kind of crap, so you won't be out of work. But I agree with
Mark 100% - it is a sign of our plasticized "culture" and the devaluation
of genuine musical expression (and don't hand me that vacuous drivel about
how music coming out of a computer is just as musically expressive as
music coming out of a guitar, either - I don't give a damn if Beethoven
himself programmed it, it is still coming out of a freakin' computer). If
none of this bothers you - if you don't mind sitting in a venue and
listening (or I should say, watching) some dork with a canned soundtrack
behind him, fine. I'll be down the street, in a different club, just me
and my acoustic guitar and my singer with just her voice, and maybe a
flutist or sax player, or perhaps a percussionist, etc., where the music
you hear is the music we are MAKING together right then and there. As
long as there are still some people left who appreciate this kind of music
making, we'll be there. When everyone starts wanting the canned variety,
we'll pack it up.
Xavier can have his swimming pool.......
Jeff
--
Jeff Gower - Quality Individual
http://www.jeffgower.com
Robert Whitaker
> the same time? Talk about difficult.
Couldn't be anymore difficult than singing and PLAYING AN INSTRUMENT at
the same time, which most of us do.
telebender
and musical honesty of prerecorded backing tracks in a live
performance. This topic seems to really generate a lot of interest.
As a long time reader of this NG I usually have enjoyed many of the
discussions here without contributing. Since I have been wrestling with
these issues myself, I decided to share a relevant experience.
In my area, the quintet that I normally work with on weekends is too
expensive for weeknight work in local clubs. Usually only solo and duo
work is available on weeknights, so I decided to supplement my band
work. I would work as a solo accompanist in a duo with a good local
singer. I would make a cd with my own backing tracks using only my flat-
top amplified acoustic guitar. This, I thought, would be more honest,
since at least I would be doing the entire instrumental performance
with the instrument that I brought to the gig.
As I began to record the tracks I found that I could often combine the
essentials of the bass part into the guitar part. Striking the muted
strings could provide some percussion. Melodies could be played using
chord extensions and inversions. I found ways to more effectively add
bass and fills while comping, often devising new left hand fingerings
and right hand picking techniques to make it all work together. In
short, the discipline of listening to my parts in the recording process
forced me to focus on parts that had always been someone else's
responsiblity in the larger group. I gained a better awareness of the
total piece. The result of all this is not really anything new. Solo
guitarists have been doing this for centuries. However, it's a little
ironic that the process of recording backing tracks became a way to
combine these parts for a solo live performance. Coincidentally, I
improved as a musician and the music got better as each piece gained
individuality.
Of course even the best solo guitar arrangement will never sound as
full as a real band. If a fuller sound is needed, I may still use my
own backing tracks for part of the show. But while I'm recording those
tracks, I'll be watching and listening for ways to make it work without
them.
Best wishes,
Eddy Lee Skipwith
Jonathan Byrd
I don't know... unlike dancing, playing an instrument doesn't involve
the kind of physical exertion that would leave most people sucking
wind. Unless you're a horn player... now THAT I'd pay to see: Somebody
who can sing and play a horn at the same time (without making their reed
brown). :-)
Jeff Gower
<david...@ifia.fzk.de> wrote:
> I don't really disagree with that sentiment, but just out of
> curiosity - some people would say exactly the same thing
> about music that comes out of a pickup and amp instead
> of out of a "real" guitar. How do you justify your choice of
> where to draw the line between acceptable and unacceptable
> technology?
Hello David. An example perhaps: as you may know, I am a big fan of Terje
Rypdal, who is a master at using effects, volume pedals, etc. to enhance
his electric guitar tone. But seeing him perform live is a revelation in
that there he is, Strat in hand, totally absorbed in expressing every bit
of emotion he can get out of that guitar, and every single tone you hear
is wrenched out of his guitar by his hands RIGHT THERE. Nothing is
pre-recorded or canned beforehand for later emission (haha). What you
hear is what he is playing in real-time. Now, I could get up there, take
the same guitar from his hands, use the same effects, and sound like Lou
Reed on a bad night. (no offense to ol' Lou - I love the guy)
A guitarist greatly influenced by Terje is Bill Frisell, who recently
stated that most of the unique milky sound he gets from his guitar is the
result of his hands (his attack and such) rather than his effects. To
what extent this is true, I don't know, but the point is made.
Amplification and effects for real-time expression are a different
ballgame than pre-recorded canned soundtrack music meant to be played
along with.
Joe Finn
Mark Kleinhaut wrote:
>
>
> Personally, I'll never warm up to backing tracks, especially in jazz,
> but I understand why it's done.
The concept of "backing tracks" is lame and abhorrent to me. It has nothing
to do with jazz. Like you Mark, I will never warm up to them. Unlike you, I
can't understand why it's done.....joe
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David Moss
"Jeff Gower" wrote...
>...(and don't hand me that vacuous drivel about
> how music coming out of a computer is just as musically expressive as
> music coming out of a guitar, either - I don't give a damn if Beethoven
> himself programmed it, it is still coming out of a freakin' computer
I don't really disagree with that sentiment, but just out of
Gene Mills
>improved as a musician and the music got better as each piece gained
>individuality.
>
>Of course even the best solo guitar arrangement will never sound as
>full as a real band. If a fuller sound is needed, I may still use my
>own backing tracks for part of the show. But while I'm recording those
>tracks, I'll be watching and listening for ways to make it work without
>them.
>
>Best wishes,
>Eddy Lee Skipwith
>
Nice common sense post Eddy!
Chris Smart
so she can *gasp* play one of her tunes.
Mark Kleinhaut (markkl...@hotmail.com) wrote:
: >
: Britney Spears plays to a track also, and the kids just love it. But I
: thought we're all here to talk about jazz and, more specifically, jazz
: guitar.
: --
: Mark Kleinhaut
: Info and soundclips available at
: www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Amphora.html
: Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
: Before you buy.
--
____________________________________________________________
http://www.braille.uwo.ca/~chriss
"Laughter is the only tenable attitude in a universe which is a joke played
upon itself"(Peter J. Carroll).
TomLippinc
>They are all
>>tools, the application of technology toward making music, the same as
>plucking
>>stretched strings across wood or beating on a hollow log.
>
>
I have to admit, I sort of "borrowed" that statement from an interview I read
some years back with Allan Holdsworth, who was answering to critics of his use
of the Synthaxe.
Tom Lippincott
TomLippinc
>too easy to fire off a post without really thinking about it- a little
>like improvising, wouldn't you say? I'd really like to hear some of
>your solo playing. Also, how's that album coming along. You owe me a
>copy, remember?
>
re; the CD. No, I haven't forgotten; I've actually accumulated quite a little
list of people I owe a copy to. I JUST got a ZIP disk with all the graphics
yesterday and hopefully will be sending everything off to the duplicators in
the next few days. To tell you the truth, from some of your recent comments, I
was beginning to worry that you'd demand your CD back once you'd heard mine.
No, I didn't use BIAB! But I did (and do) make liberal use of different
effects (including some loops from a Boomerang phrase sampler, which in a sense
is sort of "sequencing", albeit on the fly) and guitar synth on the CD; be
forwarned.
As far as solo guitar, once my website is up and running, I'm going to have a
few solo clips there.
>I've probably come accross as a purist and an elitist, among other
>dirty words, but actually I have no problem whatsoever with synths and
>electronic instuments as played by people- like Zawinule and Brecker,
>among others. Chorus and distortion are not my cup of tea, but I agree
>that they are valid tools and if used artistically, that's fine and
>dandy.
>
Okay, I'll be waiting (with some trepidation) to know if you found my use of
effects and synth "artistic."
>Personally, I'll never warm up to backing tracks, especially in jazz,
>but I understand why it's done. At least in your duo gig the two of
>you can interact within the contraints of the backing tracks- so that
>is far better than the solo scenario.
>
>Good luck
>--
>Mark Kleinhaut
The percussionist I work with jokingly calls himself the "de-cheesifier"
because (in addition to helping provide the aforementioned honest to goodness
human interaction) he ends up using brushes and blasticks on a ride cymbal a
lot of the time and even uses his bongos and congas like a snare at times. Like
I said, I certainly don't consider that gig to be "high art;" we have a joke
that the name of our group is "bubble in the paint" due to our usual
"wallpaper" status at the restaurant.
Tom Lippincott
Tom Walls
says...
The image probably appealed to me because I'm particularly fond of beating on
logs.
David Moss
"Joe Finn" <ttc1...@taconic.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:396E28D6...@taconic.net...
> The concept of "backing tracks" is lame and abhorrent to me. It has
nothing
> to do with jazz. Like you Mark, I will never warm up to them. Unlike you,
I
> can't understand why it's done.....joe
Imagine Wes came back to earth for one concert, playing
with a good recorded backing track. You have free tickets.
Would you give them away? Of course not. Obviously it'd be
preferable to hear Wes interacting with real musicians, but I
for one would be so intent on watching Wes play that the
backing track wouldn't really disturb me.
What I'm trying to say is, if the question is backing track or
live musicians, the answer is obvious - but if the question is
backing track or no music, I'd go for the former.
Lawson Stone
7/12/00 10:33 PM:
>
> Is it an insult? It could be just as easily construed as a compliment.
> When provided the option, I always choose to believe I am being
> complimented. (It works either way - even if I am being insulted,
> nothing pisses off the other person more than taking their insult as a
> compliment. ;-)
>
> I'd say it boils down to this: If you can play live with nonhuman
> accompaniment and feel good about doing it, the matter is resolved.
Let me add another factor into this.
First off, I'm an amateur player. I can assure you, none of you will every
hear me play. No danger that your high musical ethos will every be
compromised by hearing my hacking with BIAB backing--you won't make it to
the venues I play unless you are a house guest or just in the wrong
bookstore at the wrong time.
In the 10 years I've struggled to learn jazz guitar, I have met only one or
two other musicians in my area who would play with me in the first place,
and they weren't primarily interested in jazz. The jazz musicians around
here just aren't interested in amateur players. There is not a single jazz
guitar teacher in this county or in any surrounding counties.
So what do I do? I am just not sufficiently convincing as a pure solo player
to hold down 2 hours worth of music when I hit the bookshop every 6 or 8
weeks to play for them. Using BIAB every 3rd tune of so provides some needed
support and a change of pace.
We don't all live in New York. Some of us just have to find our musical
partners in the computer.
If any of you musical fundamentalists ever wants to move to Kentucky and
hang out with amateurs, you will be warmly welcomed. In the mean time, we
shall have to make do with what we can.
*****************************************************
"Go sleep it off Ike; you talk too much for a fighting man"--Wyatt Earp
Lawson Stone-Professor of Old Testament, Asbury Theological Seminary
Jazz Guitar, Cowboy Action Shooting, Leathercraft, Horses, Old West
http://lawsonstone.home.mindspring.com/index.html
Lawson Stone
markkl...@hotmail.com wrote on 7/12/00 6:29 PM:
> I think I was being an asshole to say what I said, but not an elitist.
> I think any job we do just for the money is prostitution of sorts.
> It's no different than my day job or you doing jingles or whatever we
> do IF we do it just for the money. I don't hear anyone saying doing
> biab assisted suicide (oops, I meant gigs)is fun or pleasurable, only
> that it is commercially viable.
>
> W
Hi Mark,
I hope you know how much I respect you and appreciate your music!
But I think what you say here is tragically flawed. "any job we do just for
the money" is simply not prostitution. It's called taking responsibility to
pay your own way through this world.
Now "doing whatever I have to, regardless of the ethics, to get money" would
be different.
My grandad worked at about 10 different jobs all through his life just to
put food on the table. He never expected anyone to see what he did as "art"
and assume he deserved a stipend for it. He would actually be insulted to
think the world owed him a living. He was not a prostitute.
When I was working on my PhD I knew many students who were postively
brilliant in their fields of study, and while scholarships covered their
academic expenses, living in a university in the middle of an old
Northeastern city was still expensive. They just found jobs--MacDonalds, the
public library, carpentry, maintainence crew--those are the ones I can
remember. While not rungs on the career ladder, these are all decent,
honest, honorable jobs and to accept one to earn a living is not
prostitution. Likewise, a musician who can employ their talent to make a
living isn't being a prostitute, or anything close to it.
We all--not just musicians, but everyone--have to live in an edgy,
uncomfortable and inconsistent match between our ideals and the demands of
life. We may disagree with someone else's solution, but brand that
"prostitution" is a kind of artistic fundamentalism that is no more useful
or attractive in music than it is in religion.
I hope you'll rethink your assessment of people who are dedicated to making
a living, who simply refuse to a drag on others,expecting some kind of hand
out or charity, and who will work at whatever decent and honest job they can
find if that's necessary to support themselves.
As we are acquainted, and as you know my appreciation for your work, I hope
you'll accept this in the spirit with which I offer it.
I beg you, reconsider not just your rhetoric, but your actual underlying
assumptions.
Lawson Stone
jcl...@mediaone.net wrote on 7/13/00 1:33 AM:
> So what's wrong with prostitution?
An ignorance of what prostitution really is probably accounts for the gross
misuse of it as a pejorative metaphor for making a living.
Mark Kleinhaut
Lawson Stone <lawso...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> in article 8kiddi$tnu$1...@nnrp1.deja.com, Mark Kleinhaut at
> markkl...@hotmail.com wrote on 7/12/00 6:29 PM:
>
Hi Lawson, I think you make your point very eloquently. This has become
a hot topic here lately which really doesn't have much to do with jazz
guitar, but regardless, I have been giving some serious thought to the
underlying assumptions of this issue. And I have come to the
conclusion that there is absolutely nothing wrong with prostitution. It
is as hard and honest work as anything else mentioned and the real
insult in all of this conversation has been to cast aspersions on the
"worlds oldest profession".
David Moss
"ntk" wrote...
> I thought I would approach a small club here, to see whether they would be
> interested in just me playing light jazz guitar accompanied by
> Band-in-a-Box. Has anybody any experience on doing a one-man gig with
> Band-in-a-box? I would like to hear about any potential problems I may
face.
> For example I think if people want to dance, and continue dancing after a
> song, BIAB could pose a problem. Also, would the sound be acceptable to an
> audience viz is it realistic enough to simulate a live band?
>
> If BIAB can be used for doing one-man shows, wouldn't it result in better
> income [you don't have to share with other musicians] and easier-to-get
gigs
> [since the club needs to spend less on a band]?
So, ntk, did we answer your question?
Joe Finn
David Moss wrote:
>
>
> Imagine Wes came back to earth for one concert, playing
> with a good recorded backing track. You have free tickets.
> Would you give them away? Of course not.
I see your point.
It sounds exactly like a recurring dream of mine, only I'm on the bandstand,
too. When I wake up I know Wes will never return so I don't dwell upon the
hypothetical.
BTW, thanks for making the chord diagram thing available. I hope it's OK for me
to take it out for a test drive.....joe
David Moss
"Joe Finn" wrote...
> BTW, thanks for making the chord diagram thing available. I hope
> it's OK for me to take it out for a test drive.....joe
Absolutely, it's for everyone here. Enjoy!
Jonathan Byrd
>
> Imagine Wes came back to earth for one concert, playing
> with a good recorded backing track.
Assuming that only God and Satan have the power to bring back Wes, I'd
boycott the concert on the principle that I don't condone the work of
Satan.
;->
Sean Andrews
>if any of you guys who think it's dishonorable to do gigs with
midi sequences
>want to send me the money to pay my bills, go right ahead;
>
>Tom Lippincott
>606 N. 7th St.
>Lantana, FL 33462
>
Sorry Tom, I see your point. Reading all these responses has
been very interesting. Anything anyone does to get by from day
to day, I have no quarrel with. BTW, I would love to get a copy
of your disc when you have something ready.
>
-----------------------------------------------------------
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
Thomas F Brown
Chris Smart <ch...@uoguelph.ca> wrote:
>Hey, don't forget Britney is apparently taking guitar lessons. :)
>so she can *gasp* play one of her tunes.
That's good, because on her cover of the Stones' "Satisfaction",
they left off the guitar riff. D'oh!
Nanette Mitchell
been a lot of talk about displaced musicians, but I find this argument
fatuous in this context. The only gigs I can imagine in which one would
play solo with sequenced backing are exactly the kind which Lawson is
talking about: bookstores, coffee houses, restaurants, etc. The whole idea
behind these sorts of gigs being solo is that there is simply not enough
money available to pay two people (unless you really think a bass player
would be interested in splitting $50 with you for 2 or 3 hours work).
I've not played out much over the last year and a half due to a ridiculous
work load at my day job, but when I was playing on a regular basis, I did
solo guitar and vocals and I elected to keep it just that--solo guitar and
vocals. And while I feel that this self-imposed constraint puts great
demands on my playing that has advanced it in ways nothing else would have
(in other words, it has been very good for my playing) that's all well and
good for me, but I can certainly understand how this, no matter how well it
is done, might become tedious to the average listener. The above mentioned
gigs are not jazz concerts, they are not attended by jazz aficionados, they
are meant to be light entertainment, to lend a certain class and enhancement
to an otherwise pedestrian situation. I really don't know of many
non-guitar players who would be content to sit and really listen to even a
full hour of just solo guitar. I think that's why classical guitar concerts
are attended for the most part by amateur classical guitarists. So for
those who elect to play solo with sequenced backing, as long as it is
working for them, why not?
As for the arguments I keep reading to the effect that performing with
sequenced backing is sacrilege to the holy alter of jazz art, or
prostitution... Well, this first one seems so self-evidently silly I find
it hard to even frame a response, but how about this: no, Charlie Parker did
not die for my sins. As for the second: this is stretching the simile a
bit thin, don't you think? Prostitution is fucking for money. Now that we
live in a post-Christian society this doesn't sound so bad, but back in the
days when the word took on it's negative metaphoric connotations, it stood
for immoral commerce. So if that's what's implied by those who have used
the word in this context--um, how is it supposed to be immoral? Tasteless,
maybe, but immoral? Really?
Don
Portland, Or.
Lawson Stone <lawso...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:B594A05B.AFE5%lawso...@mindspring.com...
> in article 396CF250...@isu.edu, Jonathan Byrd at j...@isu.edu wrote
on
> 7/12/00 10:33 PM:
> Let me add another factor into this.
>
> First off, I'm an amateur player. I can assure you, none of you will every
> hear me play. No danger that your high musical ethos will every be
> compromised by hearing my hacking with BIAB backing--you won't make it to
> the venues I play unless you are a house guest or just in the wrong
> bookstore at the wrong time.
*snip*
So what do I do? I am just not sufficiently convincing as a pure solo
player
> to hold down 2 hours worth of music when I hit the bookshop every 6 or 8
> weeks to play for them. Using BIAB every 3rd tune of so provides some
needed
> support and a change of pace.
>
> We don't all live in New York. Some of us just have to find our musical
> partners in the computer.
>
> If any of you musical fundamentalists ever wants to move to Kentucky and
> hang out with amateurs, you will be warmly welcomed. In the mean time, we
> shall have to make do with what we can.
>
Willie K. Yee, MD
then got COMPLETELY OUT OF HAND. Nevertheless, here is what I found that
should answer this question for once and for all:
P R E S S R E L E A S E
For Immediate Release
------------------------------------------------------
PG Music, Inc.
29 Cadillac Avenue
Victoria, BC V8Z IT3 CANADA
Phone: 1-888-PGMUSIC
Web site: www.pgmusic.com
------------------------------------------------------
PG MUSIC ANNOUNCES ENHANCEMENTS TO BAND-IN-A-BOX 10.0
PG Music, Inc., is pleased to announce some of the 487 enhancements to
be added to the upcoming version 10.0 of its Band-in-a-Box for Windows.
Many of these features have been added to make Band-in-a-Box a viable
alternative to unreliable live musicians in performance situations,
including:
1. Gigging enhancements
* Security module: Developed in cooperation with Police and
Security Equipment Company of Orem, Utah, this includes a 10,000 watt
non lethal stun device for protecting users from irate mobs of
displaced, unemployed musicians. Software includes alternate modes such
as:
- Bouncer - stuns patrons when triggered by the word "request"
- Clubowner Manager - displays "I QUIT!!!" on the screen and
kicks the clubowner's dog on the way out.
* StageManager module: Includes controllers for lighting, disco
balls, and fog machines
* Musician's manager - guaranteed to increase your performance
income by 5%. Available by license as an option for 15% of your income
for musical activities, as well as all future rights to any recordings
of your performances in any preset or future medium.
2. "Performer" patches - In order to humanize your performance
experience, these and other patches will be included as user selectable
options to Band-in-a-Box.
* Female vocalist - Integrating BIAB v 9's lyric feature with PG
Music's proprietary voice reproduction technology, this patch will allow
BIAB to perform vocals to well known standards. Will arbitrarily change
keys, and alter chorus lengths and entrances in the middle of songs.
* Crossover shredder - Features 256 types of distortion, overdrive,
and deathmetal grunge. Because of memory requirement to support this,
soloist uses only pentatonic scales. Includes fireworks interface for
StageManager module.
* Egomaniac - Ignores all other musicians and takes over entire
performance. Can be integrated with above two Performer patches.
* Drinker - Performance deteriorates as evening progresses. has two
modes, "Frank," which deteriorates at same rate as audience, and "Dino,"
which deteriorates faster the the drunkest person in the audience.
* Trombonist - includes rate tables applications for life insurance
which will be displayed at every opportunity
3. "Personalities" which integrated BIAB Styles, Soloist, and additional
programming to present a genuinely interactive performance. Examples
include:
* "Django" - When BIAB icon is clicked, BIAB may start immediately
or begin 90 minutes to several hours after gig was supposed to start.
* "Charlie" - this module presents an brilliantly innovative Style,
but will cease to function after a few years, leaving behind only a few
recorded performances as its legacy.
* "Jim" - The program offers a deceptively simple, but beautiful
and elegant style. Once you figure you have understood it, it develops
in a new and unexpected direction, often in conjunction with other
"Personalities."
* "Buddy" - This program has two modes, Gig mode in which it
glowers at you and mutters invectives during the performance, and Bus
Mode, in which tirades, insult, and profanities will go on, limited only
by disk space. The program may fire or hire the performer in either
mode, sometimes both on a given night.
* "Miles" - Disables microphones so that performer cannot
communicate with audience. Works only when computer has back facing
audience.
* "Emily" - At last! a beautiful interface for Band-in-a-Box! This
improvement incorporates the termination feature of "Charlie."
* "Jimi" - a sophisticated version of Crossover Shredder, which
will ignite the performers guitar at the end of the performance.
* "Jaco" - a version of "Charlie" applied to the bass part of BIAB
All of the above Personality modules will be available together in a
special "Band From Hell" package.
4. Oliver Gannon's Jazz Guitarist teaching modules will be replaced by
your choice of one of two teaching modules:
* George V - generates chord solos for seven string guitar which
are unplayable by any living human player. In instructional mode, can
print out seven volumes of instruction, of which most players will not
be able to complete the first.
* Jimmy B - generates blindingly fast solos. Comes with the
following templates for
- Microsoft Word: product endorsement contracts
- Quicken: basic finances for musicians
- Netscape Navigator: Web pages for instant recognition
5. Many miscellaneous refinements including features such as "Zen
Guitar" which replaces the opening Tips screen with sayings and koan
like "Do d'Addario flatwounds contain the Buddha nature?"
As always, PG music welcomes user feedback and suggestions for other
features to be included in the next version of Band-in-a-Box for
Windows.
--
Willie K. Yee, M.D. http://www.bestweb.net/~wyee
Developer of Problem Knowledge Couplers for Psychiatry
http://www.pkc.com
Webmaster and Guitarist for the Big Blue Big Band
http://www.bigbluebigband.com
Remove "DONTSPAM" from return address to reply.
ntk
This is ntk here, the original poster of this thread. I really didn't mean
to generate so much heat over my question. But really, all I wanted to do
was earn some pocket money playing light, danceable jazz music, not 'Giant
Steps' or 'Ornithology' etc. I don't think I am defacing the altar of jazz.
Overall, I am glad some people feel my way: Of course I like to play with
other musicians, but we have to think about Economics. I mean the Economics
of hiring a band for club owners and function organisers. [see my new
thread ]
ntk.
David Moss <david...@ifia.fzk.de> wrote in message
news:8kndr2$ute$1...@hiknews1.fzk.de...
ri...@nospam.bway2.com
don't like.. :)
Rick
John S. Clifford
Nanette Mitchell [a/k/a "Don"] wrote:
[snip]
> Prostitution is fucking for money. Now that we
> live in a post-Christian society this doesn't sound so bad, but back in the
> days when the word took on it's negative metaphoric connotations, it stood
> for immoral commerce.
[snip]
If nothing else, we've all learned a lot about prostitution. Now, what to do
with this knowledge?
John C.
Mr.Will
I know that this topic has unleashed a huge vault of emotions for and agains
the use of the BiaB product and playing shows with it.
The only thing that I think to that is that many of these places who would HIRE
a musician to play accompaied by a BiaB are those without any regard for what
show they are getting - they want cheap background sounds, but want someone
there so it doesn't look like a tape recorder or whatever.
OK as a musician and all, I suppose its right to feel angry at that sort of
venue, but not everyone is into the same thing, i.e. jazz and musical purity.
It seems the argument is about performing shows, but I think we should just
think about WHERE these shows are being performed. Nobody would perform in
Ronny Scotts in london backed by a BiaB.......in your local cafe they might
though. The audience isnt there to even hear you sometimes.......why not take
the money and do what is appropriate at the different times?
I play the djembe and djun djuns - African drums basically. Sometimes the
people we play for don't have enough money to pay for the full group, so
certain members do the show and that way we can taylor to what people want. The
net result is that we play MORE by doing MORE shows. I reckon if we'd been
stubborn and said "it just wouldnt sound right without three balafon/djembe, we
refuse to play" we would probably have had half the number of shows........
Anyway - I just feel that perhaps the arguments stem from not talking about
playing in the same sorts of situations.....
Mr.Will
Planet Sound Community Arts
http://www.planetsound-arts.co.uk
Thomas F Brown
Nanette Mitchell <jazzy...@dsl-only.net> wrote:
>Prostitution is fucking for money. Now that we
>live in a post-Christian society this doesn't sound so bad, but back in the
>days when the word took on it's negative metaphoric connotations, it stood
>the word in this context--um, how is it supposed to be immoral? Tasteless,
>maybe, but immoral? Really?
My understanding is that the early Christians criticized prostitution
in order to distinguish themeselves from "that other church over there"
where prostitution was part of the religion, and was done at the house
of worship. Homosexuality was criticized for similar reasons. It was
about market share, with morality being the justification.
Nanette Mitchell
death under Mosaic law. Christianity's origins were as an offshoot of
Judaism with some amendments to the dietary laws and the circumcision
covenant. To this day Judaic law is the heart of Christian morality. Ever
heard of the Ten Commandments?
Don
Portland, OR
Thomas F Brown <tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> wrote in message
news:8kqhta$5krk$1...@news.jhu.edu...
Thomas F Brown
Nanette Mitchell <jazzy...@dsl-only.net> wrote:
>Hardly! Both prostitution and homosexuality were offenses punishable by
>death under Mosaic law. Christianity's origins were as an offshoot of
>Judaism with some amendments to the dietary laws and the circumcision
>covenant. To this day Judaic law is the heart of Christian morality. Ever
>heard of the Ten Commandments?
This is hardly my field of expertise, but I'm pretty sure there were
many more competing sects when Christianity first emerged. The fact
that there was one that had similar rules does not invalidate my
observation.
David Moss
"Willie K. Yee, MD" wrote...
> P R E S S R E L E A S E
> For Immediate Release
It hardly needs saying... but, LOL!
Lawson Stone
wyeeN...@bestweb.net wrote on 7/15/00 3:07 AM:
> This started out as a reply so some comments made on this thread, and
> then got COMPLETELY OUT OF HAND. Nevertheless, here is what I found that
> should answer this question for once and for all:
>
> P R E S S R E L E A S E
> For Immediate Release
SNIP
God bless you Dr. Yee!
Now I have to clean my keyboard and screen, which are covered with
half-chewed bagel, mixed with whatever soaked in as they passed through my
nose, and of course, coffee.
I should know better than to eat and read this NG.
God bless you child. You have provided the Final Word on this topic!
PS: When does it come out for MAC?
Lawson Stone
jcl...@mediaone.net wrote on 7/15/00 3:04 PM:
>
>
> Nanette Mitchell [a/k/a "Don"] wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> Prostitution is fucking for money. Now that we
>> live in a post-Christian society this doesn't sound so bad, but back in the
>> days when the word took on it's negative metaphoric connotations, it stood
>> for immoral commerce.
>
> [snip]
>
> If nothing else, we've all learned a lot about prostitution. Now, what to do
> with this knowledge?
>
> John C.
>
This has to be the most naive, almost innocent, interpretation of
prostitution I've ever heard.
Sex is a small part of prostitution. Then there's getting the crap beat out
of you by your pimp. Then there's not getting the money because your pimp
takes all but the very least amount you can get by on. Then there's johns
who are violent, drunk, diseased, drug-addicted, etc.
Of course standing on street corners in the worst part of town at 3 AM
getting into cars with strange men is really fun and fulfilling, too!
If it's just intercourse for income, why do so many prostitutes who try to
leave "the line" end up dead in sewers?
Sex is, sadly, the smallest part of the life of a prostitute. Prostitution
is men profiteering on the bodies and minds of women who have no other
options, no hope, and no future.
Am I the only person who has actually been acquainted with former
prostitutes? How could such a smart bunch of guys be so ill-informed?
Lawson Stone
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu wrote on 7/15/00 8:34 PM:
> In article <g1Tb5.19361$MT.4...@news-west.usenetserver.com>,
> Nanette Mitchell <jazzy...@dsl-only.net> wrote:
>> Prostitution is fucking for money. Now that we
>> live in a post-Christian society this doesn't sound so bad, but back in the
>> days when the word took on it's negative metaphoric connotations, it stood
>> for immoral commerce. So if that's what's implied by those who have used
>> the word in this context--um, how is it supposed to be immoral? Tasteless,
>> maybe, but immoral? Really?
>
> My understanding is that the early Christians criticized prostitution
> in order to distinguish themeselves from "that other church over there"
> where prostitution was part of the religion, and was done at the house
> of worship. Homosexuality was criticized for similar reasons. It was
> about market share, with morality being the justification.
>
>
With all due respect, Tom, this just shows that you are out of your field.
Church history, like other academic subjects, is immensely more complex and
multifaceted than this rather simplistic and reductionistic claim.
I expected better from one of your intelligence, analyical tact, and wit.
Lawson Stone
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu wrote on 7/16/00 8:25 PM:
> This is hardly my field of expertise, but I'm pretty sure there were
> many more competing sects when Christianity first emerged. The fact
> that there was one that had similar rules does not invalidate my
> observation.
Tom,
what you said was not an "observation." It was an opinion, unsupported at
that. History is complex. Imagine how complicated an involved the behavior
of a single person is. Now project that person into the past and populate
the world. That's one way to view history.
Obligatory jazz content: jazz is an improvised art form; historiography is
not.
Thomas F Brown
Lawson Stone <lawso...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>This has to be the most naive, almost innocent, interpretation of
>prostitution I've ever heard.
>
>Sex is a small part of prostitution. Then there's getting the crap beat out
>of you by your pimp. Then there's not getting the money because your pimp
>takes all but the very least amount you can get by on. Then there's johns
>who are violent, drunk, diseased, drug-addicted, etc.
>
>Of course standing on street corners in the worst part of town at 3 AM
>getting into cars with strange men is really fun and fulfilling, too!
>
>If it's just intercourse for income, why do so many prostitutes who try to
>leave "the line" end up dead in sewers?
>
>Sex is, sadly, the smallest part of the life of a prostitute. Prostitution
>is men profiteering on the bodies and minds of women who have no other
>options, no hope, and no future.
>
>Am I the only person who has actually been acquainted with former
>prostitutes? How could such a smart bunch of guys be so ill-informed?
Sounds to me like he's been hanging with call girls, while
you've been hanging with hookers.
Thomas F Brown
Lawson Stone <lawso...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>> My understanding is that the early Christians criticized prostitution
>> in order to distinguish themeselves from "that other church over there"
>> where prostitution was part of the religion, and was done at the house
>> of worship. Homosexuality was criticized for similar reasons. It was
>> about market share, with morality being the justification.
>>
>>
>With all due respect, Tom, this just shows that you are out of your field.
>Church history, like other academic subjects, is immensely more complex and
>multifaceted than this rather simplistic and reductionistic claim.
I'm sure it's more complex, but my understanding is that this is
a piece of the explanation. The problem is that when you're
dealing with such weakly-documented history, there are always
many different plausible interpretations of the same phenomenon.
I will try to find the book in which I read this.
Lawson Stone
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu wrote on 7/17/00 10:10 PM:
>
> I'm sure it's more complex, but my understanding is that this is
> a piece of the explanation. The problem is that when you're
> dealing with such weakly-documented history, there are always
> many different plausible interpretations of the same phenomenon.
> I will try to find the book in which I read this.
Before calling it "weakly documented," hit a library. Find "The Ante-Nicene
Fathers" which are a primary source on church history prior to 400 AD. Then
you can look at the Nicene fathers, which will take you up a few more
centuries. There are thousands of pages here, thousands.
There are also archaeological materials, inscriptions, etc. that provide
quite a bit more than "weakly documented" history.
Before you rely on a single book that states the viewpoint you like, ask in
your own field if you'd consider that solid, critical thinking.
Church history, like any other fields, has its traditionalists, then the
revisionists, then the reconstructionists, and a whole bunch more.
Are you really prepared to pass judgment on an entire 2000 years of serious
human endeavor based on cursory reading of even a handful of books?
I really thought you understood critical analysis better than that!
Nanette Mitchell
the use of the word in the context being argued implied immorality? And how
does it relate to the discussion of the propriety of sequenced backing for
live performance? Obviously something I wrote struck a nerve with you. Was
it my reference to living in a post-Christian society? I can assure you I
didn't come up with that one; I got it from the noted Christian writer
Francis Schaefer. Perhaps it was my comment that *sex* (I'll refrain from
the Anglo Saxonism since maybe that was the emotional trigger) for money
doesn't sound so bad these days. Do you disagree that the idea of sex for
money does not bear the same moral weight as in the past? If so, how does
that affect my final question: "how is performing with sequenced backing
immoral?"
If it's my innocence and naiveté on the subject of prostitution that you
object to, or merely my reluctance to include all the corrollorative aspects
of it in my little definition of it for the sake of our discussion, I fess
up: I don't know, nor have I ever known any prostitutes or ex-prostitutes
(well, maybe I do, but if I do, I don't know that I do). What's more I
don't want to know any. (Oooo, I'm really feeling bold now--what's the
politically correct feminist catch-phrase? ...*empowered!*) I intend to
remain blissfully ignorant of all things prostitute, including prostitutes
and ex-prostitutes. Well...unless another HBO special comes on about
prostitutes where they're filmed by hidden cameras, and interviewed and
stuff, 'cause that's just too juicy to pass up.
Another thing that I'm ignorant about is how to change this fucking...ooops,
sorry...this darned heading with my wife's handle on to my address.
Don
Portland, OR
Lawson Stone <lawso...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:B598E324.B42C%lawso...@mindspring.com...
> in article 39707DF7...@mediaone.net, John S. Clifford at
> jcl...@mediaone.net wrote on 7/15/00 3:04 PM:
>
> >
> >
> > Nanette Mitchell [a/k/a "Don"] wrote:
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> >> Prostitution is fucking for money. Now that we
> >> live in a post-Christian society this doesn't sound so bad, but back in
the
> >> days when the word took on it's negative metaphoric connotations, it
stood
> >> for immoral commerce.
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > If nothing else, we've all learned a lot about prostitution. Now, what
to do
> > with this knowledge?
> >
> > John C.
> >
>
> This has to be the most naive, almost innocent, interpretation of
> prostitution I've ever heard.
>
> Sex is a small part of prostitution. Then there's getting the crap beat
out
> of you by your pimp. Then there's not getting the money because your pimp
> takes all but the very least amount you can get by on. Then there's johns
> who are violent, drunk, diseased, drug-addicted, etc.
>
> Of course standing on street corners in the worst part of town at 3 AM
> getting into cars with strange men is really fun and fulfilling, too!
>
> If it's just intercourse for income, why do so many prostitutes who try to
> leave "the line" end up dead in sewers?
>
> Sex is, sadly, the smallest part of the life of a prostitute. Prostitution
> is men profiteering on the bodies and minds of women who have no other
> options, no hope, and no future.
>
> Am I the only person who has actually been acquainted with former
> prostitutes? How could such a smart bunch of guys be so ill-informed?
>
Nanette Mitchell
Are you trying to make the point with your, um, observation that the early
Christian church's prohibition on both prostitution and homosexuality were
not really moral issues but a subject of market strategy? Like when Peter
finally agreed with Paul that Jesus was not just the Messiah for the Jews,
but that uncircumcised Gentiles should be included in the Church, they had
like a power meeting where they said something like, "We've got to identify
ourselves as different from those worshipers of Diana, whose priestesses
have sex with the male worshipers as a religious tribute, because the fact
that they're pan theists who sacrifice animals to their gods and we're
monotheists who don't sacrifice animals is not enough. You know, what we
should do is go after that big male, sex-hating market out there and make
sex outside of marriage a sin. That'll get us a lot of converts!"?
So if that's your point, are you consequently trying to imply that
when...whoever it was who said when someone played a solo gig with BIAB
backing they were prostituting jazz...they weren't making an moral or
ethical judgment, but were talking about taking market share? 'Cause if
that's what you're getting at all I can say is ...Huh?!
Don
Portland,OR
Thomas F Brown <tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> wrote in message
news:8kt5nl$1mkvd$1...@news.jhu.edu...
> In article <eQkc5.34069$MT.11...@news-west.usenetserver.com>,
> Nanette Mitchell <jazzy...@dsl-only.net> wrote:
> >Hardly! Both prostitution and homosexuality were offenses punishable by
> >death under Mosaic law. Christianity's origins were as an offshoot of
> >Judaism with some amendments to the dietary laws and the circumcision
> >covenant. To this day Judaic law is the heart of Christian morality.
Ever
> >heard of the Ten Commandments?
>
Mark Cleary
All these post at once and I have not heard from you since ?? Did they kick
you out of the Parish or let some else preach this week. I know what happen,
the Bishop told you he was removing your faculties now you can have time to
post to the NG.
Oh, please forgive same Savior, wrong religious tradition! Please post more
often I always read yours because at least I know I am getting the real thing
( jazz guitar nut). At least with BIAB I can always try a new lick before the
actual gig.
Your Old Friend
Mark
15th week in Ordinary time
2000.
Lawson Stone wrote:
> in article 8kt5nl$1mkvd$1...@news.jhu.edu, Thomas F Brown at
> tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu wrote on 7/16/00 8:25 PM:
>
> > This is hardly my field of expertise, but I'm pretty sure there were
> > many more competing sects when Christianity first emerged. The fact
> > that there was one that had similar rules does not invalidate my
> > observation.
>
> Tom,
> what you said was not an "observation." It was an opinion, unsupported at
> that. History is complex. Imagine how complicated an involved the behavior
> of a single person is. Now project that person into the past and populate
> the world. That's one way to view history.
>
> Obligatory jazz content: jazz is an improvised art form; historiography is
> not.
> *****************************************************
> "Go sleep it off Ike; you talk too much for a fighting man"--Wyatt Earp
> Lawson Stone-Professor of Old Testament, Asbury Theological Seminary
> Jazz Guitar, Cowboy Action Shooting, Leathercraft, Horses, Old West
>
> http://lawsonstone.home.mindspring.com/index.html
--
Mark Cleary makes music on the finest guitars available
Hollenbeck Guitars the finest in handmade jazz guitars
http://www.hollenbeckguitar.com/
Thomas F Brown
Lawson Stone <lawso...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>Before calling it "weakly documented," hit a library. Find "The Ante-Nicene
>Fathers" which are a primary source on church history prior to 400 AD. Then
>you can look at the Nicene fathers, which will take you up a few more
>centuries. There are thousands of pages here, thousands.
>
>There are also archaeological materials, inscriptions, etc. that provide
>quite a bit more than "weakly documented" history.
>
>Before you rely on a single book that states the viewpoint you like, ask in
>your own field if you'd consider that solid, critical thinking.
>
>Church history, like any other fields, has its traditionalists, then the
>revisionists, then the reconstructionists, and a whole bunch more.
>
>Are you really prepared to pass judgment on an entire 2000 years of serious
>human endeavor based on cursory reading of even a handful of books?
>
>I really thought you understood critical analysis better than that!
Hi Lawson, judging from your comments, I get the feeling that
I've indavertently taken the wrong side in an academic debate
I didn't even know existed. I wasn't intending to pass judgment
on one side of the debate or the other; I was just passing along
what I thought was an interesting and pertinent factoid from my
admittedly skimpy secondary reading on the topic.
Thanks for the cites to the primary sources, but that is
getting way over my head. Also, when I said that this
history is "weakly documented", I was speaking from my
own perspective as someone who does a lot of 19th and
20th century historical research. Compared to the archival
resources I work with, B.C.E. history is extremely skimpy.
yrs, t
Thomas F Brown
Nanette Mitchell <jazzy...@dsl-only.net> wrote:
>Help me out here, cause I'm having a hard time following your reasoning.
>Are you trying to make the point with your, um, observation that the early
>Christian church's prohibition on both prostitution and homosexuality were
>not really moral issues but a subject of market strategy?
Lawson has objected to the crude way I framed that statement, and
he knows way more about this topic than I do. Let me say something
from my own realm of expertise: ideological premises, including
morality, nearly always include a component of self-interest.
That doesn't mean that people aren't trying to be high-minded;
it just means that it's easier to be moral when you define
morality in such a way that's convenient to your worldly
interests.
>So if that's your point, are you consequently trying to imply that
>when...whoever it was who said when someone played a solo gig with BIAB
>backing they were prostituting jazz...they weren't making an moral or
>ethical judgment, but were talking about taking market share? 'Cause if
>that's what you're getting at all I can say is ...Huh?!
Yes, this is how it connects to jazz guitar. It's easy
to rail against the immorality of using electronic back-up
and putting musicians out of work when it's your own job
that's on the line. It's a very convenient thing when
your morals and your financial interests are so closely
aligned. Because if they contradict, then you have to decide
which one to discard first, and that's a tougher nut to
crack.
Lawson Stone
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu wrote on 7/18/00 2:43 AM:
>
> Hi Lawson, judging from your comments, I get the feeling that
> I've indavertently taken the wrong side in an academic debate
> I didn't even know existed. I wasn't intending to pass judgment
> on one side of the debate or the other; I was just passing along
> what I thought was an interesting and pertinent factoid from my
> admittedly skimpy secondary reading on the topic.
>
I suppose I overreacted, but hey! Most of the time here, I'm behind the
curve. As a jazz guitarist, I don't have much to offer; but then somebody
(you) said something on a subject I actually have qualifications and
training in, so I dove in! I am sure you and I are well enough acquainted
from our YEARS on this group that you took no offense, nor did I.
> Thanks for the cites to the primary sources, but that is
> getting way over my head. Also, when I said that this
> history is "weakly documented", I was speaking from my
> own perspective as someone who does a lot of 19th and
> 20th century historical research. Compared to the archival
> resources I work with, B.C.E. history is extremely skimpy.
>
Fair enough, although many people don't realize just how well-documented
many periods of ancient history are, especially when you want to know the
quality of sources, not just quantity.
Even the 19th century can be hard. I'm a Wyatt Earp/Tombstone buff, and you
wouldn't believe how hard it is got get good sources for that infamous 30
seconds on October 26, 1881.
Well, friend, we are, and have been way off topic, so I think I'll retire
from the discussion of church history on the NG. I'm happy, though, to chat
with you by private e-mail.
You stirred me from my boredom with this group, btw, and I posted the first
things I've posted for many months. Thanks!
Lawson Stone
Mitchell at jazzy...@dsl-only.net wrote on 7/18/00 3:10 AM:
> So if that's your point, are you consequently trying to imply that
> when...whoever it was who said when someone played a solo gig with BIAB
> backing they were prostituting jazz...they weren't making an moral or
> ethical judgment, but were talking about taking market share? 'Cause if
> that's what you're getting at all I can say is ...Huh?!
>
Hey Don,
Who would have ever guessed that merely asking about BIAB on a gig would
lead to such metaphysical heights of rumination!
This is a deep, wide-ranging crowd!
Somwewhere I hear Jimmy Bruno laughing his tail off!
Lawson Stone
Mitchell at jazzy...@dsl-only.net wrote on 7/18/00 2:22 AM:
> So how does your expatiated definition of prostitution amend my point that
> the use of the word in the context being argued implied immorality? And how
I actually agree. Those who compare playing for money with prostitution are
implying that such playing is immoral. that's what I objected to in the
first place. I don't think anybody doing something legal, moral, and
honorable (which playing music, even mediocre music certain is) and being
(under) paid for it is doing anything that could compare with prostitution.
I was jumping in AGAINST the analogy.
> does it relate to the discussion of the propriety of sequenced backing for
> live performance? Obviously something I wrote struck a nerve with you. Was
I think we're on different tracks. The use of sequence tracks was said to be
needed in some cases to get a paying gig, and someone else said "doing it
for the money" was like prostitution. I think chimed in that I thought that
was a bad analogy because prostitution is so much more dehumanizing and
demeaning, not to say also dangerous, than accepting payment for playing
music that is below my artistic ideals.
I had no objection at all to your allusion to post-Christian society. I read
the same books and agree with it.
> it my reference to living in a post-Christian society? I can assure you I
> didn't come up with that one; I got it from the noted Christian writer
> Francis Schaefer. Perhaps it was my comment that *sex* (I'll refrain from
> the Anglo Saxonism since maybe that was the emotional trigger) for money
> doesn't sound so bad these days. Do you disagree that the idea of sex for
> money does not bear the same moral weight as in the past? If so, how does
> that affect my final question: "how is performing with sequenced backing
> immoral?"
>
The "f word" didn't set me off emotionally, although this NG in the years
I've been here (since The Founding) has avoided trashy talk and kept the
dialogue on a higher plane than that--but it's irrelevant for the moment.
I felt your f---g for money was simply a sadly reductionistic distortion of
the reality of prostitution. It's kind of like saying "capital punishment is
just offing a few baddies" or abortion is just "pumping a few little buggers
into the sink." On on level, accurate; but not on any level of discourse
that is really meaningful.
As for sex for money not having the same moral weight as at earlier periods,
it depends on your view of morality. If you think it's just public opinion,
something we basically vote up or down, maybe so. If you think certain
things are right or wrong because they conform or fail to conform to a
transcendant and objective standard, then the current acceptance of
prostitution is simply an indicator of how sick our society is.
> If it's my innocence and naiveté on the subject of prostitution that you
> object to, or merely my reluctance to include all the corrollorative aspects
> of it in my little definition of it for the sake of our discussion, I fess
Actually this is all there was. I'm acquainted with a few women who were "on
the line" and who also did the "upscale call girl" thing, and the emotional
damage, not to mention threats to their lives, health, and safety, is
enormous. Maybe my personal acquaintances caused me to see the issue
differently.
> up: I don't know, nor have I ever known any prostitutes or ex-prostitutes
> (well, maybe I do, but if I do, I don't know that I do). What's more I
> don't want to know any. (Oooo, I'm really feeling bold now--what's the
> politically correct feminist catch-phrase? ...*empowered!*) I intend to
> remain blissfully ignorant of all things prostitute, including prostitutes
> and ex-prostitutes. Well...unless another HBO special comes on about
> prostitutes where they're filmed by hidden cameras, and interviewed and
> stuff, 'cause that's just too juicy to pass up.
>
You can certainly stay blissfully ignorant of anything you want to, as long
as you don't try to pronounce on the subject, which you did ;-) (gotcha!).
As for me, most here know by trade I am a clergyman, and I can't avoid
associating with "prostitutes, tax collectors, and sinners." So maybe being
the friend of some sinners has made me jealous for their dignity and
personhood. Baggage, baggage, baggage.
> Another thing that I'm ignorant about is how to change this fucking...ooops,
> sorry...this darned heading with my wife's handle on to my address.
>
Can't help you there, sir.
I appreciate your thoughtful and helpful reply. I think we are somewhat off
topic here, so I am going to leave off any more posts on the prostitution
thread other than to reply to what's on the board right now. I'd be happy to
continue conversations by private e-mail, though.
All the best
Lawson Stone
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu wrote on 7/18/00 3:14 AM:
> In article <cKPc5.49977$MT.16...@news-west.usenetserver.com>,
> Nanette Mitchell <jazzy...@dsl-only.net> wrote:
>> Help me out here, cause I'm having a hard time following your reasoning.
>> Are you trying to make the point with your, um, observation that the early
>> Christian church's prohibition on both prostitution and homosexuality were
>> not really moral issues but a subject of market strategy?
>
> Lawson has objected to the crude way I framed that statement, and
> he knows way more about this topic than I do. Let me say something
> from my own realm of expertise: ideological premises, including
> morality, nearly always include a component of self-interest.
>
I'll chime in saying Tom is right. From my own tradition, Jesus said "If
anyone would SAVE HIS LIFE, let him lose it for my sake." The last part, the
call to self-sacrifice, is the way to "Save one's life." At least in the
judeo-christian tradition, morality is not pure altruism. Rather, moral
principles are seen to be part of God's creation, and when we obey moral
laws, we align ourselves with God's creative purpose, and hence we are more
in harmony with the world and God. This of course, is in our best
self-interest.
> That doesn't mean that people aren't trying to be high-minded;
> it just means that it's easier to be moral when you define
> morality in such a way that's convenient to your worldly
> interests.
>
On of my profs once said that if Jesus had said, "If you deny self, take up
your cross, and follow me, you will burn forever in HELL" Peter would have
been justified in saying "Foooey on you!" I'm at a very conservative
protestant school, btw.
>
>> So if that's your point, are you consequently trying to imply that
>> when...whoever it was who said when someone played a solo gig with BIAB
>> backing they were prostituting jazz...they weren't making an moral or
>> ethical judgment, but were talking about taking market share? 'Cause if
>> that's what you're getting at all I can say is ...Huh?!
>
> Yes, this is how it connects to jazz guitar. It's easy
> to rail against the immorality of using electronic back-up
> and putting musicians out of work when it's your own job
> that's on the line. It's a very convenient thing when
> your morals and your financial interests are so closely
> aligned. Because if they contradict, then you have to decide
> which one to discard first, and that's a tougher nut to
> crack.
>
Excellent observation.
A classical player friend of mine knows all the theory we use in jazz, but
he can only use it when he's "writing" music. He's astonished that jazz
players use all this theory in "real time" as we improvise. Morals and
ethics have to engage at the point of our actual practice, whether playing
guitar, or whatever.
That's why I tend not to like it when we frame discussions like this in
terms of analogies between compromises that are merely distasteful (a jazz
purist playing a country gig to pay bills) versus actions that are generally
recognized as wrong and widely observed to be injurious (like prostitution).
Such analogies ultimately help nobody, but serve only to show how inflexible
we are and how little we know about at least one element of our analogy.
Geeeze, guys, I never thought my seminary degree would be needed here.
Maybe...it isn't?
After replying to this round of messages (it's mid-evening, Tuesday) I am
dropping out because we're a bit OT. I would love to discuss these issues
privately, though, with anyone who wants to.
Thomas F Brown
Lawson Stone <lawso...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>Well, friend, we are, and have been way off topic, so I think I'll retire
>from the discussion of church history on the NG.
Yeah, but we're not talking about church history, we're talking
about morality, and that is relevant to the biab discussion.
My point about the source of sanctions against various forms
of sexuality is relevant to the debate, I think.
Ideologies are a form of social control, and social control
nearly always has an instrumental motivation, even when
it is expressed in terms of morality.
The reason why social control is expressed in terms of
morality is that it's easier to get people to go along
with the program voluntarily than it is to force them.
So you have to convince them that what you want them
to do is the "right thing to do", because it's moral.
This holds true for sanctions against the expression of
sexuality, and it holds true for the biab debate. It's
impractical to force musicians not to use biab. You
can, however, try to convince them that it's immoral.
Lawson Stone
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu wrote on 7/19/00 2:05 AM:
> In article <B59A76F7.BB16%lawso...@mindspring.com>,
> Lawson Stone <lawso...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>> Well, friend, we are, and have been way off topic, so I think I'll retire
>> from the discussion of church history on the NG.
>
> Yeah, but we're not talking about church history, we're talking
> about morality, and that is relevant to the biab discussion.
> My point about the source of sanctions against various forms
> of sexuality is relevant to the debate, I think.
>
Fair enough, although given your discussion below, your own statements about
the subject are likewise an attempt at social control, so one could be
tempted to ask why they should submit to yours?
> Ideologies are a form of social control, and social control
> nearly always has an instrumental motivation, even when
> it is expressed in terms of morality.
>
I find this "true as far as it goes." If you said "only" a form of social
control, I think that would be a mistake, a reductio ad absurdum. It is
worth asking whether individuals need controlling, and I think we all agree
that they do. We don't want people resorting to violence without due cause.
We don't want bankers using our money certain ways. So the assumption behind
the reduction of morality to social control is that somehow this drains
moral convictions of their seriousness fails. Humans for millenia have
demonstrated that they need something to control them. Better an
internalized set of moral standards than a political or military compulsion,
hence religion in it's most spiritual forms is the best support for moral
behavior.
> The reason why social control is expressed in terms of
> morality is that it's easier to get people to go along
> with the program voluntarily than it is to force them.
> So you have to convince them that what you want them
> to do is the "right thing to do", because it's moral.
>
Somehow this makes the whole project sound disingenuous, and I am not
certain that is a just claim.
> This holds true for sanctions against the expression of
> sexuality, and it holds true for the biab debate. It's
> impractical to force musicians not to use biab. You
> can, however, try to convince them that it's immoral.
>
Again, though, I think there is a different. Great harm has come to society
and individuals through a practice like prostitution. I am not really sure
that much harm comes from a hack like me using BIAB at a gig, except that it
might make it my last if some on this group had their way. What this
suggests, of course, is that only a few will ultimately decide it's immoral,
because they have the sense to recognize that morality functions best when
it addresses profound issues, and becomes bastardized when employed to
regulate behavior that is clearly not directly moral or immoral.
And considering jazz's origins, ties to drugs, organized crime, personal
exploitation and abuse (the Buddy Rich Syndrome) etc. I find it humorous
that concerns about morality arise at all from the jazz community,
especially on such a piddly point as some nobody playing in a bookstore
using BIAB.
Tom, you are always good for a stimulating discussion. Thanks.