Fingerstyle Jazz Player Using Nails
R@yZor
fingerstyle jazz player but I'm not sure if any of them use nails to play?
Thanks,
-Ray
Gerry Scott-Moore
<"R@yZor"> wrote:
> Is there a fingerstyle jazz guitar player that uses nails? I know a few
> fingerstyle jazz player but I'm not sure if any of them use nails to play?
Do you mean explicitly on steel-string? Most of the classically trained
nylon-string jazz guitarists play with their nails. Charlie Byrd, Earl
Klugh, Romero Lumbambo (usualy misspelled Lubambo), etc. The Brazilian
guys kinda go both ways between nails and fingers, apparently related
to their emergence from bossa or samba, but then primarily they don't
play jazz per se.
--
///--- Nazodesu no more.
Adam Gottschalk
"R@yZor" <rfe...@earthlink.net> wrote:
Although my interaction with both these fingerstyle players is now quite
some time ago, I know that when I had a lesson or two with Howard Morgen
(well known 7-string jazz player and author of a number of popular
educational books), he described his being very serious about the upkeep
of his nails, keeping them just the right length, filed, smooth, etc.
On the other hand, I also did a week workshop with the inimitable Tuck
Andress and he described his having given up completely on using any
fingernails at all. I think, especially with his somewhat "over the top"
style, he had more of tendency to break nails than most might.
I have come to lean more toward Tuck's approach than Howard's as far as
my own playing goes, but it's mostly because if there will be finger
picking, I just prefer the more fleshy sound of no fingernails.
Jurupari
finding it's the best approach for me.
Clif Kuplen
Gerry Scott-Moore
Gottschalk <ad...@adamgottschalk.nospam.net> wrote:
> Although my interaction with both these fingerstyle players is now quite
> some time ago, I know that when I had a lesson or two with Howard Morgen
> (well known 7-string jazz player and author of a number of popular
> educational books), he described his being very serious about the upkeep
> of his nails, keeping them just the right length, filed, smooth, etc.
>
> On the other hand, I also did a week workshop with the inimitable Tuck
> Andress and he described his having given up completely on using any
> fingernails at all. I think, especially with his somewhat "over the top"
> style, he had more of tendency to break nails than most might.
Jeez--who are you studying with now?
> I have come to lean more toward Tuck's approach than Howard's as far as
> my own playing goes, but it's mostly because if there will be finger
> picking, I just prefer the more fleshy sound of no fingernails.
Do you play more nylon or steel? I prefer the nail sound, but
maintaining them using steel-string is just impossible. And I have a
hard time changing stance and technique on Nylon string so I usually
use pads there to cause it's easy.
When I sit down to play bona-fide classial guitar though, I get out my
footie, but the guitar on the elevated left knee, pivot my right wrist
up and to the left and play with the nails. Poorly, for the amount of
time I invest in it.
Then I spend 20 minutes working on my naiis.
Gerry Scott-Moore
<juru...@aol.com> wrote:
> I quit using nails in August. I'm still not completely used to it, but I'm
> finding it's the best approach for me.
And now using pads exclusively? Or a pick?
R@yZor
player use fingernails?
Earl Klugh uses nails? I have his solo album and the sound seems to have a
"fleshy" feel to it. I always thought he doesn't use nails.
"Gerry Scott-Moore" <222...@adelphia.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:011220021103344482%222...@adelphia.net.invalid...
Jurupari
>
No, just pads. They pretty much turn into nails anyway, I didn't remove *all*
my nails but cut them about a mm above the quick so they don't address the
string or break anymore. I really like it, but I'm not 100% yet.
As Richard Bornmann notes, it's much easier to use the right hand to play
fretboard stuff too.
I did go back to my 175 as a result, since for my inexperienced hand, the
narrower neck on my DeArmond presents an accuracy problem. I may want a Turser
instead for a cheapie play out guitar.
Clif
Adam Gottschalk
Gerry Scott-Moore <222...@adelphia.net.invalid> wrote:
> Jeez--who are you studying with now?
Unfortunately no one. At the moment, I'm 5 days away from the LSAT, the
4 hours of my life which potentially will determine much of my future,
both near-future and more distant. And the Logical Reasoning stuff is
totally kickin' my butt...
Gerry Scott-Moore
<"R@yZor"> wrote:
> Earl Klugh uses nails? I have his solo album and the sound seems to have a
> "fleshy" feel to it. I always thought he doesn't use nails.
I don't listen to Klugh much, but you're right; I too think of him
having a muted attack. Best to say I don't know.
Jurupari
>totally kickin' my butt...
knowing it is really good for being intuitive about chord subs and
reharmonization, though - similar processes of mentation..Good luck, or rather
may you focus optimally.
..a delayed AHA! That explains your precise dissection of the Wes/tone thread
- if that's any guide, you're better than some of the perpetrators of district
court PIP opinion you find around here! :o)
Clif
EHHackney
first, but the nail grabs the string and releases it.
I know that James Taylor uses nails and Chet Atkins did. A lot of
"thumbpicker" country players use nails, too. (Not jazz players, per se.)
Ralph Towner uses nails on both nylon and 12-string (steel). Anybody know
about Martin Taylor?
I should note here that my hands are very dry, which makes the pads slick and
sort of scratchy. They just don't grab the string. If I had moister hands
with softer fingertips, flesh might work better for me.
Hack
--//--
Tom Lippincott
>Now that you mentioned it, do you know of any steel string jazz fingerstyle
>player use fingernails?
>
Lenny Breau used a thumb pick and nails on his other fingers (i, m, a and c).
I use nails and play both nylon and steel strings. I have to wear fake nails
on my i, m and a fingers, though.
Tom Lippincott
Guitarist, Composer, Teacher
audio samples, articles, CD's at:
http://www.tomlippincott.com
R@yZor
I tried using pads and I find them very awkward even after a few weeks of
practice. I just can't get use to them. They affect my speed when scaling
and I can't get the solid, fuller sound I get from nails. I feel that I
don't have control of the string too.
"Jurupari" <juru...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021201153440...@mb-fs.aol.com...
Bob Agnew
while simultaneously wiping the other notes in the chord with the nails of
his middle, ring and little finger! It took a long time for folks to figure
out how he was playing all those notes simultaneously.
"R@yZor" <rfe...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:yNsG9.11010$ta5.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Steve Carl
Ralph Towner on nylon and 12-string steel.
Steve Carl
Gerry Scott-Moore
Lippincott <tomli...@aol.comnospam> wrote:
> I use nails and play both nylon and steel strings. I have to wear fake nails
> on my i, m and a fingers, though.
You go to local nail-parlor and have them done every two weeks? You
get a good rate for only three fingers?
EHHackney
>I have to wear fake nails
>on my i, m and a fingers, though.
>
I have been using the "James Taylor" method - that I read about in Guitar
Player magazine a few years ago. I paint a thin layer of superglue on my nail,
from the tip about 1/3 of the way back, then dip the nail in acrylic nail
powder. Sometimes I put on a couple of coats. I have tried glue-on fake
nails, pro acrylic nails, and stick-on silk fabric and superglue, and the JT
method still works best for me. BTW, I don't know if James Taylor still does
it this way.
Hack
--//--
Richard Bornman
> Is there a fingerstyle jazz guitar player that uses nails? I know a few
> fingerstyle jazz player but I'm not sure if any of them use nails to play?
> -Ray
Ray,
You have it backwards!
For fingerstyle playing on nylon or steel, nails are generally the
norm!
Proponents of the nail-less attack are few and far between...In fact
the only well known pads-only jazz player I can think of would be
Kevin Eubanks.
Richard
Max Leggett
I used to use Player's Nails, but the last time I saw my old CG
teacher he said he preferred cutting up old ping pong balls.
thom_j.
"Max Leggett" <mleg...@nospam.ca> wrote in message
news:3deacfe4...@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
I betcha' Mr. PingPong wasnt happy about this Max! :^)
Tom Lippincott
>> I use nails and play both nylon and steel strings. I have to wear fake
>nails
>> on my i, m and a fingers, though.
>
>You go to local nail-parlor and have them done every two weeks? You
>get a good rate for only three fingers?
>
>--
>///--- Nazodesu no more.
>
I'm a do it yourself-er. I've thought about going somewhere to have them done
professionally but it works fine when I do them myself, and it's easier and
cheaper that way.
EHHackney
>Subject: Re: Fingerstyle Jazz Player Using Nails
>From: "thom_j." thom_...@yahoo.com
>Date: 12/1/2002 8:38 PM Mountain Standard Time
>Message-id: <X6KcnQ_sq9h...@comcast.com>
THAT made me laugh!
Hack
--//--
thom_j.
"EHHackney" <ehha...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021202000658...@mb-bg.aol.com...
Somedays Hack, I'm even funny! :^) cheerio thom'ee'O
mba...@duke.edu
:>
: I used to use Player's Nails, but the last time I saw my old CG
: teacher he said he preferred cutting up old ping pong balls.
That's become a fairly common thing to do among classical players who use
any sort of fake nail. When I was playing classical seriously, I
experimented with a bunch of different material to replace the player's
nails, and ended up settling on cutting up Fender light picks.
One thing I've observed about jazz players who use nails is that they
generally don't get very good tone compared to someone like, say, Bream.
I think this is because a lot of folks don't realize (or maybe care?) that
classical players generally strike the string at a very oblique angle,
with the nail at maybe 60 degrees to the string. That's how you get that
crystal clear round tone that you hear Bream and other get.
Mike Babyak
Margaret Wilson
semihollowbody with 1252s. I keep my nails long enough to really use 'em,
but short enough that they don't "catch" on the strings.
Regards,
Margaret
"R@yZor" <rfe...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:yNsG9.11010$ta5.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Andrew Hoyt
> "R@yZor" <rfe...@earthlink.net> wrote :
>
> > Is there a fingerstyle jazz guitar player that uses nails? I know a few
> > fingerstyle jazz player but I'm not sure if any of them use nails to play?
> > -Ray
>
Martin Taylor uses nails. So do I ('cept when I break one).
Andy
EHHackney
>semihollowbody with 1252s. I keep my nails long enough to really use 'em,
>but short enough that they don't "catch" on the strings.
Hi Margaret. How long do you keep your nails? Do you put stuff on them?
Hack
--//--
Mark Guest
Have you tried using an emery board on the pads of your fingers? Works well
on my dry skin.
--
Mark Guest
Mark at MarkGuest.net
www.MarkGuest.net
"EHHackney" <ehha...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021201172421...@mb-mq.aol.com...
Margaret Wilson
I try to keep them about 1/4" over the edge of the pad on all fingers except
the thumb. I can't seem to shape my thumbnail so it won't catch on the
strings. So I cut this nail short and have developed a callous on the side
of the thumb pad. No one seems to have noticed that my thumb is nailless!
:-)
I'm one of the fortunate few with tough nails, so I don't put a thing on
them. I keep the nails on my left hand clipped short, and my right hand as
mentioned above.
Do you still have your RL3? I still have my RL4 but am not as happy with it
as I once was. I've got a new bridge on order and may lighten the strings.
Someone else mentioned wrapping the strings around the tail piece. Any
thoughts on this?
Regards,
Margaret
P.S. We're gettings lots of snow here today in Michigan, roads are bad, but
it sure is pretty! :-)
"EHHackney" <ehha...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021202125605...@mb-fy.aol.com...
EHHackney
as I once was. I've got a new bridge on order and may lighten the strings.
>
>Margaret
>
Interesting. My affection for my RL-3 was short-lived also. It came with 12s,
which I changed to 11s. I think it helped, but didn't get it. I have sold
it.
I was looking seriously at a Yamaha AEX1500. It's the Martin Taylor Yamaha.
It has a neck humbucker and bridge piezo. I thought that combination might be
good for fingerstyle. Instead, though, I have ordered a Godin LGX-SA. It has
two humbuckers and a piezo bridge, plus synth access. I have played a couple
of these Godins and I liked them both. It should be in this week and I'll post
a review after the shake-down. It is interesting that fingerstyle jazz guitar
seems to me to need a different kind of guitar than one for playing with a
pick.
>Someone else mentioned wrapping the strings around the tail piece. Any
>thoughts on this?
My gut feel is that wraping the strings around the tailpiece will not make any
difference. I wondered if it was the pickups. I'm not sure what
Duncan-designed means, but I thought about replacing the neck pickup with a
real Duncan - but didn't.
>P.S. We're gettings lots of snow here today in Michigan, roads are bad, but
>it sure is pretty! :-)
>
We live in the eastern foothills of the mountains east of Albuquerque. It has
been very dry here for the last several years and are hoping for a hellaciously
snowy winter. Not much yet, though.
Regards,
Hack
--//--
EHHackney
>Hack,
>
>Have you tried using an emery board on the pads of your fingers? Works well
>on my dry skin.
>
>--
>Mark Guest
>Mark at MarkGuest.net
>www.MarkGuest.net
>
OUCH! I guess that's a thought. Makes me think about the old safe-cracker
movies before they had all the electronics.
I live in New Mexico and it is very dry. More so in the winter. I should use
lotion on my hands more often, but don't.
Hack
--//--
Mark Kleinhaut
ehha...@aol.com (EHHackney) wrote:
(snip)
It is interesting that fingerstyle jazz guitar
>seems to me to need a different kind of guitar than one for playing with
a
>pick.
I never found that to be true. I go back and forth with nails (trimmed just
like Margaret described) and picks on several different steel and nylon string
guitars, and they all work fine.
Interesting thread, by the way. I have really lucky nail strength and only
have problems when I let them grow to long (read, neglect them). I like
to eat carrots!
--------------------Mark Kleinhaut
markkl...@hotmail.com
Info and soundclips about:
"Chasing Tales":
http://www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Chasing%20Tales.html
"Amphora":
http://www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Amphora.html
"Secrets of Three": http://www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/SO3.html
Joey Goldstein
Tom Lippincott wrote:
>
> >
> >Now that you mentioned it, do you know of any steel string jazz fingerstyle
> >player use fingernails?
> >
>
> Lenny Breau used a thumb pick and nails on his other fingers (i, m, a and c).
As does Lorne Lofsky. And Lorne has exceptionally long nails. I don't
know how he keeps them up, or why he feels he needs them that long, or
what he does if he breaks one. Lorne plays an Ibanez Strat with .012 to
.052 roundwounds. He uses a plain .020 G.
> I use nails and play both nylon and steel strings. I have to wear fake nails
> on my i, m and a fingers, though.
>
> Tom Lippincott
> Guitarist, Composer, Teacher
> audio samples, articles, CD's at:
> http://www.tomlippincott.com
--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
<joegold AT sympatico DOT ca>
Mark Kleinhaut
"Mark Kleinhaut"
(snip)
>Interesting thread, by the way. I have really lucky nail strength and only
>have problems when I let them grow to long (read, neglect them). I like
>to eat carrots!
>
Vengence from usenet gods can be swift and merciless. Within 5 minutes of
posting this I caught my 3rd finger nail on the bathroom door, tearing it
accross its width. I'm never posting about nails again!
PJBMHB
>but short enough that they don't "catch" on the strings.
is there anything nastier, tactilely, than snagging a fingernail on a metal
guitar string? makes fingernails on a chalkboard seem wonderful in comparison!
=-) PJ
Spencer Seidel
and c).
>
I have heard that Lenny kept his nails unusually long as well.
Spence
--
http://www.UltimateGuitarChordTrainer.com
Gerry Scott-Moore
<ehha...@aol.com> wrote:
> Instead, though, I have ordered a Godin LGX-SA. It has two
> humbuckers and a piezo bridge, plus synth access.
Which methodology do you intend to use to drive midi access? Roland or
otherwise? Do you have a GR30?
Gerry Scott-Moore
<nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> As does Lorne Lofsky. And Lorne has exceptionally long nails. I don't
> know how he keeps them up, or why he feels he needs them that long, or
> what he does if he breaks one. Lorne plays an Ibanez Strat with .012 to
> .052 roundwounds. He uses a plain .020 G
Very interesting. I assume you've seen him perform; do you think his
attack with the be-nailed fingers is "light"?
Does he use thumb/first finger for fast single-note pasages.
That guy is such a player!
Gerry Scott-Moore
<zapp...@aftersleeves.orgNOSPAM> wrote:
> > > Lenny Breau used a thumb pick and nails on his other fingers (i, m, a
> and c).
> >
>
> I have heard that Lenny kept his nails unusually long as well.
Before playing the nylon extensively I use to keep my nails quite long
as well. But then, while plaing steel-string, I would grind them down.
So I'd even their shape out a bit and then I'd find myself using heavy
attack, or playing for a long period or something and have to shape
them again. But mostly the were long in between.
Joey Goldstein
Gerry Scott-Moore wrote:
>
> In article <3DEBC9DF...@nowhere.net>, Joey Goldstein
> <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>
> > As does Lorne Lofsky. And Lorne has exceptionally long nails. I don't
> > know how he keeps them up, or why he feels he needs them that long, or
> > what he does if he breaks one. Lorne plays an Ibanez Strat with .012 to
> > .052 roundwounds. He uses a plain .020 G
>
> Very interesting. I assume you've seen him perform;
Yes. He's a friend of mine. We played together in rock bands when we
were kids and we still play together every once in a while.
> do you think his
> attack with the be-nailed fingers is "light"?
Yes, but he seems to have found a way to sound like he's digging in too.
> Does he use thumb/first finger for fast single-note pasages.
Mostly, yes.
> That guy is such a player!
Sure is.
> --
> ///--- Nazodesu no more.
--
Margaret Wilson
12s,
> which I changed to 11s. I think it helped, but didn't get it. I have
sold
> it.
Hmm, how did you sell it, and how bad a beating did you take on the price?
I've been keeping an eye on these of late (on Ebay, that is), and while some
don't sell at all, others go for better prices. A new RL5 minus case just
went for $479 + shipping. I've hung onto my RL4, because I'm often sorry
after I sell stuff! Also, I haven't found another small semihollowbody that
I really like. I've been looking at the Carvin AE-185 with Holdsworth
pickups, but I can't get over that acoustic bridge looking kind of strange
on a tele-shaped guitar....
> > I was looking seriously at a Yamaha AEX1500. It's the Martin Taylor
Yamaha.
> It has a neck humbucker and bridge piezo. I thought that combination
might be
> good for fingerstyle. Instead, though, I have ordered a Godin LGX-SA. It
has
> two humbuckers and a piezo bridge, plus synth access. I have played a
couple
> of these Godins and I liked them both. It should be in this week and I'll
post
> a review after the shake-down. It is interesting that fingerstyle jazz
guitar
> seems to me to need a different kind of guitar than one for playing with a
> pick.
I'll look forward to your post!
> >Someone else mentioned wrapping the strings around the tail piece. Any
> >thoughts on this?
>
> My gut feel is that wraping the strings around the tailpiece will not make
any
> difference. I wondered if it was the pickups. I'm not sure what
> Duncan-designed means, but I thought about replacing the neck pickup with
a
> real Duncan - but didn't.
Duncan Designed means that the pickups are designed by Duncan but made in
Korea. They're supposed to be better than the average Korean-made pickup,
but who knows? I don't want to put too much money into a guitar only to
sell it at a loss, so I've left the pickups alone ... for now, anyway.
> We live in the eastern foothills of the mountains east of Albuquerque. It
has
> been very dry here for the last several years and are hoping for a
hellaciously
> snowy winter. Not much yet, though.
I'll try to send some snow your way. ;-)
Regards,
Margaret
Don Mitchell
> Is there a fingerstyle jazz guitar player that uses nails? I know a few
> fingerstyle jazz player but I'm not sure if any of them use nails to play?
>
>
> -Ray
>
>
The only player I know of who definitely does NOT use nails is Tuck
Andress. Joe Pass used nails. You could clearly see them, long, shaped
and glossed on a cover of Guitar Player magazine many years ago, and see
him using them on his Hot Licks video of solo guitar. Martin Taylor
uses nails. Earl Klugh absolutely uses nails. The guy's got beautiful
right hand technique. Lenny Breau used nails and a thumbpick, as do
most country fingerstylists. Howard Morgen and Alan De Mause use nails.
If I recall correctly from the videos on his web site, Phil de Guy
uses nails. Also, from the videos on his web site, I think Bob Conti
plays with nails.
I play nylon strings almost exclusively these days, and use the best
classical right hand technique I know how (=nails), but also use nails
when I play my steel string guitars fingerstyle. I do have La Bella
nylon tape-wound strings on my archtop, and Elixir coated strings on my
semi-solid Warren. Years ago I used to paint my nails with various
hardeners and clear polishes, but I found the longer I played, the
tougher they got. Now, for many years, I've used them natural with no
problems. The main concession I make is at work where I always try to
wear gloves when I'm working with the tools (I'm a foreman in a welding
shop).
--
Don
visit Don's web site at: http://members.dsl-only.net/~jazzman
EHHackney
>otherwise? Do you have a GR30?
The Godin synth access guitars use the Roland 13-pin system. That means you
have to have a Roland synth, or something similar, before you can go to midi.
I have an older, GR-09 Roland synth.
Hack
EHHackney
>Hmm, how did you sell it, and how bad a beating did you take on the price?
>I've been keeping an eye on these of late (on Ebay, that is), and while some
>don't sell at all, others go for better prices. A new RL5 minus case just
>went for $479 + shipping. I've hung onto my RL4, because I'm often sorry
>after I sell stuff!
I sold the RL3 to a friend of my brother. My brother is a country player,
singer, song-writer and knows a whole bunch of players. I sold it for $400
with the case, and I paid the shipping and insurance. I had paid close to $600.
Once I decide to sell an instrument I am resolved to losing money. And I find
that there are more instruments that I regretted buying than regretted selling.
Maybe there is a 12-step program for guitarist out there somewhere.
P.S. We got snow last night. We have over half a foot so far and it is still
coming down. May have to delay my shopping trip to town, but that's o.k..
Jurupari
Still transitioning
A couple of things. I tried it when I first went fingerstyle about 14 years
ago, and found what you did. Yet I've always had issues with nails, like
breaking all winter, and that I wasn't really touching the guitar - it kind of
felt like chopsticks if you get the analogy.
Recently somebody really laid into my playing here, and I thought, shit, if I
sound that bad anyway, what do I have to lose, so I thought I'd give it a try.
It's still transitioning, and I've been at it since Aug 17th.
I found that there are DOZENS of attenuations to attack that simply don't exist
with nails - wrist pitch, wrist angle, downstroke pressure, wrist
repositioning, playing 'on point' like a ballet dancer for speed, and playing
with the pad of the thumb and a straight wrist to get a fatter funk - blues-
swamp attack, and on and on.
I've found I need a somewhat wider neck, and I really like the deeper arch in
my 175 since it makes the angle of address to the strings more comfortable. a
tele or strat might just kick my ass now, but I did a country session a couple
of weeks ago on my AS200 and that felt ok.
I can actually do some music using the right hand on the fretboard too, but I'm
letting this develop on its own.
The upside is I'll have the same hand whenever I pick up the guitar, and my
time and attack feel much more connected when everything's working right.
I've found I can execute a lot of the tougher stuff I'm tying to do a little
better, but going back to the wider neck has made a double stop with my little
finger really challenging. (I do that in an exposed place in a head I'm working
on, and it buzzes more than it will later, I hope!)
I can play at about the same speed as before, but I seem to get a lot more
clarity if it's going ok. It still takes doo damn long to warm up, but that's
getting better too.
I love the sound of chordal and multiple voice playing this way - I can
clawhammer my fingers like a banjo frailer and get some nail, but at this
point, getting nail is mostly a clam, and an awful one! - I don't have complete
control over that yet, but it's getting better with the 175.
So far, so good.
Clif
tomw
markkl...@hotmail.com says...
>
> "Mark Kleinhaut"
> (snip)
> >Interesting thread, by the way. I have really lucky nail strength and only
> >have problems when I let them grow to long (read, neglect them). I like
> >to eat carrots!
> >
>
> Vengence from usenet gods can be swift and merciless. Within 5 minutes of
> posting this I caught my 3rd finger nail on the bathroom door, tearing it
> accross its width. I'm never posting about nails again!
Damn! I use my nails about once a blue moon these days, but I keep them
trimmed and ready to go, and it makes me feel totally off-balance to
have a broken nail. The worst are the ones that don't break but just
tear into the quick, guaranteeing about a month of messed up nail.
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
http://www.arts.cornell.edu/zeus/
Phil
Metheny, Howard Morgan...lots of others too I would imagine. I do and my
teacher from years ago did; I can't imagine any other way.
Phil