God I love this Ramirez

[Nate Najar]

I have Charlie Byrd's Ramirez 1a here at the house. I'm making a record in tribute to Charlie in January, so I have this guitar on loan so I can practice on it and I'll be playing it on the record. I've played it in concert a few times the past few years but this is the first time I've had a chance to really bond with it.

first things first, it's impossible to play. It's an extra wide neck (54mm) and extra long scale (664mm) and the neck is a club. AND the action is ridiculously high. stupid high. and I like high action. the neck is slightly bowed, but not really bad, especially considering the age of the guitar. Apparently at this point in time they were building them like this on purpose. Whatever reason, I'm getting very used to it and it is just a joy to play. The high action and large neck make certain things much more comfortable to play- single note lines for instance. 6 string chords are nearly impossible, but a strong left hand never hurt anyone!

But the thing about this is, the tone is unreal. It sounds like a mellow old spanish guitar. In the last few weeks I have played a large number of high end concert classicals (I'm in the market for a new guitar), and they all sounded great, and of course all different, but none sounded anything like this. The best way to describe the sound is moody. it has a depth and character to it. and it's powerful. ridiculously loud, but super balanced, and very round and mellow. I've been practicing all evening and I'm taking a little break and I'm just so excited I wanted to post about it.

N

[Gerry]

I've come to believe that good classical guitars don't become great
guitars until they've had someone play a few thousand hours on them.
How long did Charlie play this guitar?
--
Where words fail, music speaks. -- Hans Christian Anderson

[Mondoslug]

Very, very cool Nate. Good luck!

[TD]

Yea man. That axe sounds great. The action is high, sure, but it seems
to be significative of these nylon string guitars. The "RamByrd" is
surprisingly loud and I don't think the same sort of volume can be
achieved on much lower action, unmiked. We rarely come across a non-
bowed classicals due to the 'no-truss zone'. I find that we cannot
judge the instrument by our usual ( arch-top, thinline, and solid-
body) standards. We simply have to adjust and, rather than considering
it a constraint, it can be quite rewarding; because by approaching it
differently it is possible to open new doors for ourselves, musically
and technically speaking. I love my new Antonio Aparicio AA-70, for
example. I think it sounds and plays great for the money. Straight
ahead!!

-TD

[Norm Karin]

> How long did Charlie play this guitar?

I'd like to know this too. I saw Charlie back in the mid-80s and he
was using a Takamine. Interestingly, so was Christopher Parkening.

NK

[Nate Najar]

On Wednesday, November 30, 2011 12:08:38 AM UTC-5, Gerry wrote:

> I've come to believe that good classical guitars don't become great
> guitars until they've had someone play a few thousand hours on them.
> How long did Charlie play this guitar?

Charlie bought this guitar new, so he had it since the mid seventies. The date on the label is 1974. He used it on many record dates, some concerts and played it at home. He used an ovation with the great guitars because he could get loud with it and keep up with barney, and then switched to the takamine because it was more like a guitar than the ovation!

N

[Graham]

On Nov 30, 2:35 pm, TD <tonydecap...@gmail.com> wrote:
> We rarely come across a non-
> bowed classicals due to the 'no-truss zone'.

Also worth noting that classical guitars often have an amount of
intentional 'bow' in the neck which seems quite pronounced if you're
used to other types of guitar. As far as I know, this is because the
nylon strings need more room to vibrate, and so the 'bow' was
traditionally needed to get more volume out of the strings without
fret buzz.

My classical guitar (a Juan Camps) is quite unusual in having a truss
'wire' in the neck, so a limited amount of adjustment can be made to
this. Which I found quite handy, as for playing at home I preferred
to take the neck 'bow' down a fraction.

[Greg/oasysco]

On Nov 29, 10:18 pm, Nate Najar <n...@natenajar.com> wrote:

That's cool! If there is any residual mojo from that guitar you don't
need, please email it to me :)

[Tim McNamara]

In article
<27961640.1042.1322667954562.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqcm37>,

Understandable, I never liked his sound with the Ovation. Pickups and
amps for acoustic and nylon string instruments have improved
dramatically. I find however that my Turner RN-6 sounds the closest to
an acoustic instrument when amplified. I suspect that the qualities
that make a great classical guitar acoustically are counterproductive
when trying to amplify it.

--
Your time is limited. Don't waste it living someone else's life.

Steve Jobs 1955-2011

[rpjazzguitar]

How high are we talking about? Could you measure it and let us know?

[TD]

On Dec 1, 3:25 am, rpjazzguitar <rpjazzgui...@gmail.com> wrote:
> How high are we talking about? Could you measure it and let us know?

Blood pressure or testosterone?

[Tim Berens]

On Nov 29, 10:18 pm, Nate Najar <n...@natenajar.com> wrote:

> I have Charlie Byrd's Ramirez 1a here at the house.

Nate:

I love my Ramirez too. I bought it new in 1982 and have played it
nearly every day since, except for when I was injured. There is
something magical about these guitars. Maybe it's Spanish sweat
mixed in with the finish.

I had the action lowered on mine many years ago -- just a bit, but it
was enough to make it much more comfortable to play.

I know a player who didn't want to lower the action on her Ramirez, so
instead she raised the neck. She hired a luthier to place a thin
layer of ebony over the top of the existing neck, thus raising the
neck to the strings. It allowed the action to stay high to get that
great Ramirez projection while making it much easier to play.

My Ramirez will be with me until the very end. I can't imagine ever
parting with it.

Tim
http://timberens.com

[Nate Najar]

On Thursday, December 1, 2011 3:25:10 AM UTC-5, rpjazzguitar wrote:
> How high are we talking about? Could you measure it and let us know?

I don't have a proper way to measure it, although i keep meaning to get one of those little metal rulers.... but I can tell you it is ridiculously high. nearly prohibitively high. to some people it is probably way too high to play. I prefer high action and am used to it, and this is a stretch for me.

N

[rpjazzguitar]

Well, if you can measure it with a little metal ruler, it can't be
THAT high.

[TD]

The trick is to be high when you measure it.

[mark cleary]

That does not make sense. Action is the height of the strings over the
frets. She lowered the action if the strings were closer to the frets.
Raising the fingerboard up is the same as lower the action. In any case my
guess is the sound of this guitar has to do with the fact that it has higher
action. High action on a guitar in general does increase the volume,
projection, and clean sound. It is always a trade off in how to handle the
way the guitar plays and sounds. If a player can handle the action higher
then most of the time they get a better sound. In my years as a player and
repairman most players a looking for the lowest action they can
get..............and the sound will not be quite the same as higher action.
The best example of this from the jazz guitar is Barney Kessell, he got a
great full sound but his action was higher than most modern players like.

Deacon Mark Cleary

Epiphany Church.

"Tim Berens" wrote in message
news:f802392d-4ea3-4246...@cu3g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...

[TD]

I agree, high action on a good neck is where it's at for me, at least.
I copped the idea when I studied with Raney back in my teens. Tal used
high action back then too. That sound generating from the thicker
strings with non-low action is masculine as a mofo, but again it gets
down to what's personal. I guess it's easier to play very fast ( in
many cases just to be fast , but not all...{Jim Hall uses very low
action and light strings},) on low action. I don't think the action
should be so high that it defeats the purpose. It can be very
difficult to the point of not feasible to play chords utilizing ultra
high action. And intonation can also factor in. It's all personal, so
it really doesn't matter.

-TD

[thomas]

I'm guessing that Tim's friend's motivation was to maintain the same
string height above the soundboard while still bringing the
fingerboard closer to the strings. She didn't want to mess with the
bridge.

On Dec 1, 6:47 pm, "mark cleary" <mclear...@comcast.net> wrote:

[mark cleary]

Whatever you do TD, is sounds great to my ears. Your touch is very precise
and generally that is a sign of higher action or more tension on the
strings. I personally like a medium action at the most but I like the string
tension to be high. One way to get better sound with lower action is
increase string tension. This was one of reason my late friend Bill
Hollenbeck put a higher arch on his guitars. The bridge/saddle created a bit
more of an angle an the tension is higher. I have 4/64 and 5/64 on the high
and low e strings at the 12th fret. maybe tab bit lower even. However with
a 25 1/2 inch scale and a better angle I still get project and sound out of
the guitar. Certainly the top has to be carved correct and voiced but that
is another story.

My typical repair stuff is these guys bring me their Fenders and say the
need absolutely the lowest action they can get. All of them are trying
basically to have action that is like 3-2/63 and 4/64 and less if the guitar
will take it. Then they wonder why the sound at times tails off on solos and
bending, not to mention fret buzz out the rear.

Could explain why I listen to Tony D and Joe Giglio. I always hand them my
Hollenbeck if they want to try out a jazz box and the first thing they
mention is " it plays really easy with those ropes you have for strings"
..............I don't think they have ever venture to other possibilities. I
just love a Les Paul with some nice flat wounds of about 12-52 you can get a
lot of sound of them in many styles with that set up. Maybe bending is a
problem but nice for rhythm work.

Deacon mark

"TD" wrote in message
news:c3eef64f-7bce-425f...@l19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...

[Tim Berens]

On Dec 1, 6:47 pm, "mark cleary" <mclear...@comcast.net> wrote:

> That does not make sense. Action is the height of the strings over the
> frets.

I make no claims about understanding how guitars are built. Perhaps
"lower the action" was the wrong phrase to use. I dunno.

I do know that my friend had a luthier lay a thin veneer of ebony
fingerboard over the existing fingerboard to raise the neck up to the
strings. The exact reason why, I'm unclear. My guess is that the
Ramirez sound is based on some interesting geometry involving the
strings and the soundboard, and raising the neck kept that geometry in
place.

The results are amazing. The guitar plays like a dream and has that
rich Ramirez sound. Perhaps a visit to rec.music.classical.guitar
could clear up how this happens. Several luthiers inhabit that
region.

Tim
http://timberens.com

[Nate Najar]

On Thursday, December 1, 2011 11:40:43 PM UTC-5, Tim Berens wrote:

Yeah Tim, the neck on my ramirez is in pretty good shape- so any bow or warping is minimal. but the action is still ridiculous. and the saddle is REALLY low. as in too low to lower any more. which means that the angle of everything was decided upon and built on purpose and probably contributes to the sound. it is a freaking cannon. and moody as hell with a ton of depth.

N

[mark cleary]

Well I am a luthier and guitars are funny business the craving and bracing
pattern have mostly to do with the sound. In particular the bracing on a
classical guitar has much to do with the sound and then or course the set
up. Some guitars even with high action play well and seem to defy what you
might think, it is the nature of wood and interaction. Another thought is
that classical guitars have a long scale and that increases the tension. If
the action is ridiculously high as Nate said that might need to be dealt
with if the player was really having issues. I think what I would do is
exactly as your friend did. I would pull the fingerboard up and raise the
action with an ebony veneer, or in other words make the fingerboard thicker.
Actually this would be pretty easy to do as assuming you can get the
fingerboard off the guitar without a struggle. If they used hide glue it
would be easy to heat the puppy up and put it back down. I also think it
would not change the sound much if any. No sense in struggling with huge
high action if you love the guitar and are fighting it. Sounds like your
friend took the guitar to the correct luthier. I have done similar repairs
on flat tops and archtops, but never on a classical guitar. I don't get a
lot of work on classicals because not many are played around here and they
tend to be cheap replaceable type guitars.

Deacon Mark Cleary

"Tim Berens" wrote in message

news:3328c21d-f3d3-483b...@r28g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...

[zepa]

I love my Ramirez too. I don't recall the model, but it's a Classical
with
a cutway. Excellent.
My main nylon guitars have been the Ramirez, one Yamaha NCX900R, and
one (Brazilian luthier from Rio de Janeiro) Maruricio Barros 7
strings.
Depending on the situation, I have used my Godin Multiac ACS, but
that's
a complete differente animal, of course.

ZP

[guitarannie]

Funny story about the word mellow.
Years ago (1969) I was trying guitars at Studio City Music.(Los
Angeles) They supplied violins etc to the LA Philharmonic. I had a
Yamaha that I was having one of the first Pizeo pickups installed
(made by Gibson with individual saddle pieces) I really liked my
Yamaha. After playing a few Ramirez's I liked my $160 Yamaha better
The only guitar that I found that had more projection and brilliance
than my Yamaha was by Ignacio Fleta $5,000. The Ramirez's were around
$2,000

http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?intObjectID=5356754

This guitar was even. No matter where I played it, the volume of the
note was the same. I got into a discussion with the sales/repair guy.
I also sold guitars. I told them that I had customers who were buying
a guitar for their child and they asked me for a "Mellow" guitar. The
violin repair guy (who was German) asked me if I knew what the
dictionary definition of mellow was. I did not. He said "Over-ripe,
almost rotten" .
If I have a brilliant classical guitar I can mellow it with technique
but I cannot make a mellow guitar sound brilliant.

My Yamaha was eventually stolen, Along with my 1966 Gibson es-345
stereo.

[guitarannie]

I'm not meaning to hijack the Ramirez thread but this is cool. If I'd
only had $5,000 in 1969
http://www.guitarcentre.com.au/Fleta.html

John Williams played one.
The modern concern guitar has evolved from various plucked instruments
of many cultures over hundreds of years. This long history culminated
in nineteenth century Spain through the genius of Antonio de Torres
(1817-1892) who finally established the shape and structural design of
the present day guitar. It is a testimony to Torres that some of the
finest guitars built today are direct copies of instruments he made
over 100 years ago.

One maker who used Torres as inspiration was the great Barcelona
luthier Ignacio Fleta (1897-1977). Fleta was an accomplished violin,
cello and guitar maker who, after hearing the great Andres Segovia in
the '50s decided to concentrate almost entirely on the construction of
concert guitars. Segovia and several other concert artists starting
using Fletas and soon has name was established alongside those of
Hauser, Bouchet and Hernandez y Aguado as one of the greatest makers
of the modern era.

Ignacio Fleta has been described as the 'Stradivarius of the guitar'.
This description is particularly apt as Fleta borrowed many
constructional ideas from his violin making background such as the arm
to body dovetail joint, a radical departure from the 'Spanish' method
of building the arm and body as one unit during construction. This,
together with inspirational ideas for internal strutting and top
thicknessing, proved instrumental in achieving the distinct Fleta
sound.

In the mid '60s Fleta, along with several other makers, began to
substitute the traditional European spruce soundboard for that of
American cedar. The 1961 and 1972 guitars, previously used by John
Williams for concert and recording work, represent the zenith of these
major periods of Fleta's work and are two of the finest concert
guitars ever made.

Still being constructed in Barcelona by his sons Francisco and
Gabriel, Fleta guitars, like Stradivarius violins and Steinway pianos,
continue to be one of the first choices for concert and recording
artists to this day.

Ignacio Fleta best described the exquisite sound of his guitars when
he expressed that it was his aim to give the guitar a 'human' voice -
a philosophy surely attained and to be enjoyed now and for generations
to come.

[TD]

On Dec 10, 10:55 am, guitarannie <guitaran...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm not meaning to hijack the Ramirez thread but this is cool. If I'd

> only had $5,000 in 1969http://www.guitarcentre.com.au/Fleta.html

There have been 'stradivarius' and even consanguineous so called
equivalents to the Stradivarius. I bet old Antonio had many babes.

-TD

[Nate Najar]

funny you mention the fleta. I have never personally encountered one but always wanted to. Charlie Byrd played a fleta for many years. He replaced his hauser (1929 hauser that used to belong to segovia) with a brand new fleta in the late fifties. He played the fleta until he got this ramirez!

N

[thomas]

On Dec 10, 10:55 am, guitarannie <guitaran...@gmail.com> wrote:
<

> This description is particularly apt as Fleta borrowed many
> constructional ideas from his violin making background such as the arm
> to body dovetail joint, a radical departure from the 'Spanish' method
> of building the arm and body as one unit during construction.

"Arm"? Is this an Australian thing?

[guitarannie]

My dad used to rave about Segovia's Hauser
I'm glad you're digging the Ramirez. I have no classical guitars
anymore - don't like the flat neck and lack of sustain. But i wasn't
very good at classical music.