Swing in the line
Dallas Selman
swing much, my fingers don't seem to want to do that....really sucks.
oasysco
> Anybody know a good excercise to get some swing in my lines. My lines don't
> swing much, my fingers don't seem to want to do that....really sucks.
You mean a swing feel or a swing musical sound? I wonder if Joe Finn
has some such stuff on his site - http://www.joefinn.net or JAZ at
http://www.sheetsofsound.net/
Greg
mylesja...@gmail.com
> swing much, my fingers don't seem to want to do that....really sucks.
learn 4-8 bars of a charlie christian solo. loop it over and over in
a program like transcribe and play it hundreds (or thousands) of times
trying to make it sound exactly like him.
myles
Dallas Selman
like a row of farts!
"oasysco" <wilder...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:65047e86-d8a3-46af...@k39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Mark Kleinhaut
Yuk, I'd rather eat mudpies than ever do shit like that. Swing comes
from within- from the heartbeat and breathing rhythms of the body,
from the gait when you walk, the hips, the arms, the head bob, you
know what I mean?
The easiest "exercise" is to sing the lines you want to play. Does it
swing when you sing it? Does it swing inside your head when you hear
it? Pull it from your inside and push it out....in your mind's ear,
then singing, then finally playing it. If it's not in your head it
will never come out the fingers:0)
mylesja...@gmail.com
then don't.
myles
Mark Kleinhaut
Phil
I agree -- play along with something that sounds swingin' to you and
try and mimic the feel. Experimenting with different fingerings for a
phrase might also help -- I think, by and large, a solid swing feel is
facilitated by idiomatic, guitaristic fingerings. As opposed to crazy
stretches and weird, non-intuitive fingerings.
The ol' metronome on 2 and 4 trick also is helpful.
Also, maybe play along with professional tracks -- like the Jamie
Abersold play-along stuff. I can only swing as good as the drummer
and bassist are.
tomb...@jhu.edu
>
> I agree -- play along with something that sounds swingin' to you and
> try and mimic the feel.
Agree.
> Experimenting with different fingerings for a
> phrase might also help -- I think, by and large, a solid swing feel is
> facilitated by idiomatic, guitaristic fingerings. As opposed to crazy
> stretches and weird, non-intuitive fingerings.
Major agree. Lose the LH pinky and pluck with RH thumb and see if it
doesn't start to feel better.
> The ol' metronome on 2 and 4 trick also is helpful.
>
> Also, maybe play along with professional tracks -- like the Jamie
> Abersold play-along stuff. I can only swing as good as the drummer
> and bassist are.
Major disagree. Play without any backing at all. If you can't swing by
yourself then you can't swing at all.
sheets
stuff is the way to accomplish that. I wouldn't listen to guitarists
though. Play along with Miles' Kind of Blue.
Nice Dan from UK
I always liken playing jazz to speaking a foreign language. I guess
you're doing the equivalent in music of trying to speak with a good
convincing accent in language. So I would go with the listen, absorb
and practice method. I guess there are no shortcuts with that.
Phil
Hey, 2 out of 3 ain't bad! :)
Actually I still think trying to play a melody/solo against a hip
backing track can make it obvious out where you rush, lag, etc. You
can fool yourself when playing solo -- those extra beats you add when
trying to find a position/shape, etc. don't seem so obvious.
Dallas Selman
players must take for granted. What I forgot to mention is I am an upright
bass player (no electric) and I swing like crazy when I need to on bass.
But, I have a really weak left hand ring finger as a consequence, you rarely
use that finger except in the high register (backache register on the
upright), and a strong pinky, but its a problem for guitar.
"Phil" <pdem...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7b77c51b-f54f-4d46...@q39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
hw
"Dallas Selman" <marine...@shaw.ca> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:qm8mj.2871$ow.2298@pd7urf1no...
> Ya know these are interesting comments on a subject most accomplished
> players must take for granted. What I forgot to mention is I am an
> upright bass player (no electric) and I swing like crazy when I need to on
> bass. But, I have a really weak left hand ring finger as a consequence,
> you rarely use that finger except in the high register (backache register
> on the upright), and a strong pinky, but its a problem for guitar.
in that case learn some sam jones cello solos and play them on the lower
four guitar strings. even wes copped some sam jones licks ;)
Joey Goldstein
> Anybody know a good excercise to get some swing in my lines. My lines
> don't swing much, my fingers don't seem to want to do that....really sucks.
When you play a string of swing 1/8s learn to accent the upbeats as
opposed to the downbeats.
Make up lines with 2 or more upbeats in a row contrasted with some
downbeats.
One of the main things that distinguishes a swing feel from any other
feel you are likely to play is he swing upbeat. So it stands to reason
that accenting the upbeats might help it sound like you're playing swing.
Obviously, there's much more to it, but that's a good start, IMO.
learn 4-8 bars of a louis armstrong solo. loop it over and over in
a program like transcribe and play it hundreds (or thousands) of times
trying to make it sound exactly like him.
--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
<http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/AudioClips/audio.htm>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
Joey Goldstein
Oy Marky.
What are we gonna do with you?
Just because you've stayed away from doing those types of things, and
you've come out sounding real good, doesn't take away from the fact that
most guys who know how to swing have done precisely what Myles is
suggesting.
Max Smith
There might have been some justification for Charlie Christian or Jimmy
Raney or Tal Farlow or even Wes Montgomery to say "I don't listen to
guitar players; I listen to horn players", because there weren't that
many guitar players to listen to. Now that there are thousands of
swinging guitar recordings available can we retire that cliche? I don't
know about you, but I play the guitar because I like the sound of the
guitar - nothing against Miles (or Jack) - of course we should listen to
Miles and Bird and Pres and Basie, but Wes Montgomery, Grant Green,
Kenny Burrell, George Benson, Ed Bickert (and they didn't name it "The
Swinging Guitar of Tal Farlow" for nothing)and many other guitarists
swing just fine to me!
Max S.
enamon
etc and listen to it ......dont try to play along with it..its too
hard.
give up the "hand strength" idea its BS.
listen to lots of bop and it will absorb all by itself and come out in
your playing.
Tone
> Ya know these are interesting comments on a subject most accomplished
> players must take for granted. What I forgot to mention is I am an upright
> bass player (no electric) and I swing like crazy when I need to on bass.
> But, I have a really weak left hand ring finger as a consequence, you rarely
> use that finger except in the high register (backache register on the
> upright), and a strong pinky, but its a problem for guitar.
I think a majority of 'the masters' I've seen on youtube use 3 fingers
most of the time. Granted its 1st, 2nd, 3rd, but you may be better off
finding fingerings that sort of reinforce your pinky with your ring
finger than trying to bring your ring finger up to the level of the
others.
I attended a clinic w/Robben Ford where he explained that he used his
pinky constantly because he wanted to change a habit of never using
it. So he ended up using it instead of his ring finger... still three
fingers just different ones :) And really it looked more to me like
the ring finger just sort of shadowed the pinky, like they were one
finger. He seemed a little embarrassed by it but he has nice phrasing
so its not there was anything to apologize for Whatever works.
Dallas Selman
"Tone" <a.ko...@computer.org> wrote in message
news:98426536-88d0-426c...@i3g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
oasysco
> Swing feel. I try to emulate Herb Ellis or Charlie Christian but I sound
> like a row of farts!
Now, the real question is... are the farts staccato or legato? <g>
Greg
>
> "oasysco" <wilderkom...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
oasysco
Max Smith
>
> learn 4-8 bars of a louis armstrong solo. loop it over and over in
> a program like transcribe and play it hundreds (or thousands) of times
> trying to make it sound exactly like him.
>
I think Ralph Ellison defined "swing" as "music played in the style of
Louis Armstrong"
Max S.
Al
> like a row of farts!
If it smells good, it is good.
Dan Adler
> swing much, my fingers don't seem to want to do that....really sucks.
Actually, most jazz players today don't swing any more in the
traditional triplet-y meaning of the word. I'm trying to swing less.
Swing sounds old fashioned.
sheets
Nobody swung like Miles or Basie. Start off listening to the best. We
still can't retire that cliche. It still applies unfortunately.
neod...@gmail.com
> swing much, my fingers don't seem to want to do that....really sucks.
Listen, listen and listen: Lester Young and Paul Desmond are two
exceptional examples of swing...if harmony is the vocabulary of jazz,
swing is the pronounciation. As musicians, we have much to learn from
listening to the guys that came before us, regardless of their chosen
instrument.
It's about note placement within the bar and beat: Jazz/swing
interpretation is in triplet feel, where most American music is
sixteenth note feel, i.e., each beat is subdivided into 3's, rather
than even 4s.
Basie (and a number of West Coast style players) played a bit behind
the beat, where the boppers and mroe East Coast players played a bit
in front (the challenge was keeping the tune from dragging or being
rushed).
You have to listen to it...years ago I had a teacher demonstrate by
playing a 32 bar solo on a single note and he swung his ass off....as
he pointed out at the time, "it may not have been very melodic or
interesting, but it swung".
www.VintageArchtop.com
Barney Kessel
and I must say, this is a fascinating thread!
-Thomas
hw
"sheets" <jackz...@gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:569e06ec-26e0-425a...@f10g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
grant green swung as hard as miles, he was up there with the best of the
best.
sheets
> grant green swung as hard as miles, he was up there with the best of the
> best.
Disagree. One of the true marks of greatness is in the number of
imitators and whether it transcends the instrument. Can you name any
great saxophonists or pianists or trumpeters who have copied Grant
Green?
Mark Guest
> listen to lots of bop and it will absorb all by itself and come out in
> your playing.
That's my opinion, too, FWIW. Doing the intensive, repetitive
exercises suggested by others seems like an abbreviated form of
becoming conversant in a jazz idiom. If my playing were stronger, I'd
state my opinions louder.
All the best,
Mark Guest
Jazz Guitar
www.myspace.com/markguest
Music produces a kind of pleasure which human nature cannot do
without."
Confucius (c.551-479 BC)
hw
strongly disagree (as usual ;)) the true mark of greatness is greatness.
period. how many trumpet players have copied monk? how many saxophone
players have copped ray brown licks? how many piano players learned django
solos? charlie christian solos? name a saxophone player that modelled his
playing after errol garner. if thoses cats don't make it into your
"greatness list", what can i say...
but ask scofield about grant, or benson (who wouldn't have had any clue as
what to play with McDuff without Grant). ask peter bernstein, sonny
greenwich, martino. ask lou donaldson or dr. lonnie smith if you need that
kind of validation to appreciate a player. heck, ask mccoy tyner. they'll
all tell you the same thing, that grant was one of the greatest of all
times.
but actually all you'd have to do is listen to his records ;)
Dallas Selman
"Dan Adler" <d...@danadler.com> wrote in message
news:2bc5c76a-ac87-4e4c...@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Keith Freeman
> your playing.
> get those "proper" box sets of dexter,stitt,miles trane, bud powell
> etc and listen to it ......dont try to play along with it..its too
> hard.
I would suggest finding a player whose swing you like, but who doesn't play
too many notes (Dexter or Pres, perhaps) and playing along, trying to cop
the feel rather than the notes.
-Keith
Clips, Portable Changes, tips etc.: www.keithfreemantrio.nl
e-mail: info AT keithfreemantrio DOT nl
pmfan57
> "sheets" <jackzuc...@gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitragnews:cc834b5f-105d-47ed...@i3g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Greatness is greatness. Holger is right. Few copied Bach because he
was at the end of his era, but all knew he was great (in fact the
"greatest," with apologies to Muhammad Ali)
Dan Adler
> On Jan 24, 3:56 pm, mylesjazzgui...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Jan 24, 3:40 pm, "Dallas Selman" <marinesur...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> > > swing much, my fingers don't seem to want to do that....really sucks.
>
> > a program like transcribe and play it hundreds (or thousands) of times
> > trying to make it sound exactly like him.
>
>
> Yuk, I'd rather eat mudpies than ever do shit like that. Swing comes
> from within- from the heartbeat and breathing rhythms of the body,
> from the gait when you walk, the hips, the arms, the head bob, you
> know what I mean?
>
> The easiest "exercise" is to sing the lines you want to play. Does it
> swing when you sing it? Does it swing inside your head when you hear
> it? Pull it from your inside and push it out....in your mind's ear,
> then singing, then finally playing it. If it's not in your head it
> will never come out the fingers:0)
>
> www.markkleinhaut.com
Woody Allen: I was thrown out of NYU for cheating on my Metaphysics
final. I looked within the soul of the boy sitting next to me.
tom walls
>
> I am old, I am 67 years old and want to swing like an old fuk.
>
>
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
paul
> Disagree. One of the true marks of greatness is in the number of
> imitators
maybe for you personally this is true, but it's hard to formulate a
strong argument that makes this true for most, mainly because it would
mean that people who have highly idosyncratic, hard to imitate styles
wouldn't often be candidates for greatness which is clearly not the
case (monk, frisell, ornette, miles, etc).
tomb...@jhu.edu
>
> > Major disagree. Play without any backing at all. If you can't swing by
> > yourself then you can't swing at all.
>
>
> Actually I still think trying to play a melody/solo against a hip
> backing track can make it obvious out where you rush, lag, etc. You
> can fool yourself when playing solo -- those extra beats you add when
> trying to find a position/shape, etc. don't seem so obvious.- Hide quoted text -
I think we're talking about two different skill sets that are related
and yet distinct. One is about fitting into an existing groove and
contributing to it. The other is about investing your own line with
swing, whether or not you have collaborators.
tomb...@jhu.edu
I've sat across from Robben and watched his LH up close. He uses his
ring finger to bolster his pinky. The pinky will fret, but the ring
finger will be pushing up against the pinky to give it more meat
support.
sheets
> Oy Marky.
> What are we gonna do with you?
> Just because you've stayed away from doing those types of things, and
> you've come out sounding real good, doesn't take away from the fact that
> most guys who know how to swing have done precisely what Myles is
> suggesting.
I think there's something to that. If memory serves me correctly, Mark
also never transcribed. I see Mark as a freak of nature in that some
of the things he can do make no sense from an educationaly standpoint
and it seems as if they truly come from some alternative energy source
above. I'm not sure it's good advice for mortals to follow in the
footsteps of someone with that kind of freakishly great ability.
sheets
> "sheets" <jackzuc...@gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitragnews:cc834b5f-105d-47ed...@i3g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> strongly disagree (as usual ;)) the true mark of greatness is greatness.
> period. how many trumpet players have copied monk?
Thousands -> Wynton, Blanchard, Dizzy, etc. They've all transcribed
Monk.
> how many saxophone
> players have copped ray brown licks?
Lots more than you apparently know. Brecker was a huge bass player fan
and copied lots of bass licks. But you're stretching what I'm saying.
Ray Brown was a great bassist and timekeeper but he was not a great
soloist in the traditional melodic sense.
> how many piano players learned django
> solos? charlie christian solos? name a saxophone player that modelled his
> playing after errol garner.
Lots. Nat King Cole copied Garner. You're applying a very select bit
of restrospective here.
> but ask scofield about grant, or benson (who wouldn't have had any clue as
> what to play with McDuff without Grant). ask peter bernstein, sonny
> greenwich, martino. ask lou donaldson or dr. lonnie smith if you need that
> kind of validation to appreciate a player. heck, ask mccoy tyner. they'll
> all tell you the same thing, that grant was one of the greatest of all
> times.
Yes, he was great but he was no Miles.
> but actually all you'd have to do is listen to his records ;)
I was listening to Grant since the early '70s.
sheets
Who's solos are dissected in major jazz studies programs?
paul
> On Jan 25, 12:25 pm, paul <pcsanw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 25 Jan, 10:19, sheets <jackzuc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Disagree. One of the true marks of greatness is in the number of imitators
>
that's a completely different question, which is also (imo) not in any
way indicative of greatness. just because they're not analyzing woody
shaw solos at the new school doesn't mean he's not a jazz great.
to the original point, you have to have two qualities to have
imitators. you have to have something to imitate (a style), and that
style has to be imitatable. this is simply not the case for a large
subset of jazz greats (the aforementioned monk, frisell, etc).
hw
> On Jan 25, 10:42 am, "hw" <nospam...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> "sheets" <jackzuc...@gmail.com> schrieb im
>> Newsbeitragnews:cc834b5f-105d-47ed...@i3g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
>> strongly disagree (as usual ;)) the true mark of greatness is greatness.
>> period. how many trumpet players have copied monk?
>
> Thousands -> Wynton, Blanchard, Dizzy, etc. They've all transcribed
> Monk.
thousands? ;)
>> how many saxophone
>> players have copped ray brown licks?
>
> Lots more than you apparently know. Brecker was a huge bass player fan
> and copied lots of bass licks. But you're stretching what I'm saying.
> Ray Brown was a great bassist and timekeeper but he was not a great
> soloist in the traditional melodic sense.
see the thread title (i do disagree with the assessment that ray was not a
great soloist though)
>> how many piano players learned django
>> solos? charlie christian solos? name a saxophone player that modelled his
>> playing after errol garner.
>
> Lots. Nat King Cole copied Garner. You're applying a very select bit
> of restrospective here.
Nat was no sax player, i thought your point was about being copied by other
instruments? btw Nat King Cole was not influenced by Garner, he was playing
in his famous piano style long before Garner hit the scene (when cole
recorded sweet lorraine erroll's first recording was still a few years
away), . Earl Hines and Tatum were his influences. in fact erroll was
influenced by nat king cole (and freddie green, another one of the greatest,
though certainly not in the "traditional melodic sense"...)
>> but ask scofield about grant, or benson (who wouldn't have had any clue
>> as
>> what to play with McDuff without Grant). ask peter bernstein, sonny
>> greenwich, martino. ask lou donaldson or dr. lonnie smith if you need
>> that
>> kind of validation to appreciate a player. heck, ask mccoy tyner. they'll
>> all tell you the same thing, that grant was one of the greatest of all
>> times.
>
> Yes, he was great but he was no Miles.
of course he was no miles, he was grant, which is the point.
>> but actually all you'd have to do is listen to his records ;)
>
> I was listening to Grant since the early '70s.
then you should know better ;)
pmfan57
> "sheets" <jackzuc...@gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitragnews:ed7d4dcb-7d38-4daa...@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
It's funny that while Tatum was an influence on Cole, Cole later
became an influence on Tatum in the sense of his trio format with
guitar, bass and piano. Cole was a tremendous influence on pianists
that came after him as well, including Oscar Peterson and Bill Evans
(!), not to mention Ray Charles and Horace Silver and many others.
sheets
> then you should know better ;)
OK, how about I agree that Grant swings his ass off and certainly
there would be no Benson without Grant. I guess I've painted myself
into this corner but my real point is not to limit yourself to
guitarists. I didn't mean to imply that Grant was not one of the
greatest players in history. :)
Max Smith
Well, Miles was great, too, but he was no Grant Green.
Is it a contest?
Does the statement "Miles swung harder/better/more than Grant Green"
really have any value - when both those players (and many more suggested
above) swung more harder/better/or whatever than most of us ever will?
Isn't that the beauty of this - that all these great jazz players
have/had their own style and personality?
Why is it that a musician (Green) who was selected as a sideman by so
many other great jazz musicians (Lee Morgan, Herbie Hancock, Larry Young
and many others) and who's own albums featured Elvin Jones, McCoy Tyner,
Joe Henderson and many other truly great players gets evaluated (by a
fellow who, if I am not wrong, has done nothing to compare with any of
those accomplishments) by a dismissive "but he was no Miles".
Well I guess we should just throw away any recordings we have except for
Miles', since all those other players may be great, "but they're no Miles".
Would the original poster be irreparably harmed by listening to Grant,
or Wes, or Kenny Burrell, or Barney Kessel - I don't think so.
Max S.
tomb...@jhu.edu
>
> Would the original poster be irreparably harmed by listening to Grant,
> or Wes, or Kenny Burrell, or Barney Kessel - I don't think so.
Barney Kessel couldn't swing and wasn't a real improviser:
hw
which of course is a valid point. after all grant modelled his playing
mostly after saxophonists (parker), too. when he was in his formative years
there were not many guitar players on par with the horns (except jimmy
raney, who was a huge influence on grant. i think i posted before about a
special solo by raney that has grant's trademark lick and also hints at
where he got his fabulous understated vibrato from). i also agree that
guitar players to some extend still have work to do to catch up with the
stuff the top horn players are capable of playing. although with people like
rodney jones, adam rogers, vic juris, mclaughlin et. al. we have proof that
it can be done. still this thread is about swing and grant certainly was
swinging as hard as anyone you want to put against him. and he was pushing
the envelope in the 60s, played with trane's rhythm section and did stuff
with larry young that was unheard of. wes certainly considered him an
"avantgarde player" and even plays some grant influenced stuff on "portrait
of wes". we should be proud of him.
Max Smith
Haha - since when is a reference to some other poster's opinion on some
old thread an authoritative source on who swings?!
I'll admit it - I'm not that huge a Kessel fan, either, but I have heard
him playing some nice swinging arrangements, whether they are improvised
or not - and he seems to swing nicely on that Lester Young/Oscar
Peterson record (and I can't imagine them waiting around for Barney to
compose a solo) - and by the way, is the Basie band or Duke's band
swinging when they are playing a chart, or can you only swing when you
improvise?
Max S.
tomb...@jhu.edu
Hey, I didn't say I agreed with that post. I think that when Barney
hits a groove, he swings as good as anybody on any instrument. I do
agree that he's more of a licks player than a pure improviser, but so
what? Pure improvisers often bore me. They're usually more impressive
than entertaining. One thing you can say about BK -- he knew how to
set a mood with every piece he played. He was never a boring musician.
sheets
> tombr...@jhu.edu wrote:
> > On Jan 25, 4:05 pm, Max Smith <mlsp...@insightbb.com> wrote:
> >> Would the original poster be irreparably harmed by listening to Grant,
> >> or Wes, or Kenny Burrell, or Barney Kessel - I don't think so.
>
> > Barney Kessel couldn't swing and wasn't a real improviser:
>
> >http://tinyurl.com/29kn9k
>
> Haha - since when is a reference to some other poster's opinion on some
> old thread an authoritative source on who swings?!
When the player is Doug Wamble, it's at least something to look
seriously at, whether you agree or not. Doug is a *MONSTER* player.
gant...@comcast.net
the Continental" and most any other Horace Silver tune that catches
your fancy 10 times a day. Listen to anything by Art Tatum, Charlie
Parker, Oscar Peterson, The Count Basie Band - the list goes on and on
but those are all great places to start. Don't even pick up your
guitar for a month. Listen, listen and listen some more. Dance
around your house snapping your fingers. Learn to sing the heads of
all your favorite tunes. When you're finally ready to pick up your
guitar again don't try to solo. Place rhythm. Find the groove. Once
you have it it'll show up in your solos without even trying.
Good luck!
Gantt
gant...@comcast.net
Sorry.
Gantt
On Jan 25, 9:32 pm, "ganttm...@comcast.net" <ganttm...@comcast.net>
wrote:
> Place rhythm.
gant...@comcast.net
And the reason to play rhythm is that if your solos swing like crazy
and your 'comping sucks no one is going to want to play with you so
you won't get any gigs and all your swinging solos will only happen in
your living room!
Gantt
On Jan 25, 9:36 pm, "ganttm...@comcast.net" <ganttm...@comcast.net>
wrote:
pmfan57
But Oscar Peterson says otherwise. So you can't just go by how good
the player is who said it. Look how much Keith Jarrett and Wynton
disagree with each other. What does that show?
Max Smith
He definitely had well conceived arrangements - not just blowing
sessions (which can be great in their own way) - I think he conceived of
the guitar as a little band in his hands, with the chord punches and
conterpoint and call and response stuff - and you gotta love the
van-dyke beard and ascot!
Max S.
Max Smith
Can't argue with that - he's not just good - he's deep.
Max S.
sheets
doesn' t mean they are automatically right but each of them has valid
points and a deeper understanding than most.
hw
do we have to go through this shit *again*?
Formerly Sideways
> doesn' t mean they are automatically right but each of them has valid
> points and a deeper understanding than most.
Geez, does it have to be a contest and a ranking all the time?
Obviously, both Miles Davis and Grant Green (and Louis Armstrong) have
a lot to offer any aspiring guitarist. Among other things, it's
fascinating to see how Green translated his Charlie Parker influence
to the guitar.
I respect your opinion, Jack, but the knee-jerk reaction that the
guitar is somehow not an important instrument in jazz is kind of
narrow-minded and not particularly helpful on a guitar discussion
board, don't you think?
I say this having read your later post saying that both Miles and
Grant swung their ass off. You have certainly done your homework, but
I still feel compelled to add my 2 cents.
Doug Wamble has a lot to offer, and his sometimes inflammatory
comments in this group have ultimately been more thought-provoking
than anything. I've enjoyed trading a couple emails with him and I
think he's a good player and a good guy.
On the other hand, I don't think Max Leggett (I think it was Max) was
totally off base remarking that Doug's "Barney doesn't swing" comments
were ill-timed as Barney was in the last throes of his horrible
illness at that point.
Beyond that, although Barney Kessel is still not my cup of tea at all,
my very favorite guitarist, who plays both modern and traditional
styles with undeniably tremendous depth, swing, and facility, was very
influenced by Barney. That doesn't necessarily refute the "Barney
doesn't swing" argument, but it suggests that he may have something to
offer, after all.
Mark Kleinhaut
LOL....this is funny stuff...."freak of nature"? I'm flattered, but
c'mon on.....
sheets
>
> LOL....this is funny stuff...."freak of nature"? I'm flattered, but
> c'mon on.....
I'm serious. It's akin to Pat Martino advising young improvisers to
forget practicing and just play from the gods as the sun rises.
Greger Hoel
> Hey, I didn't say I agreed with that post. I think that when Barney
> hits a groove, he swings as good as anybody on any instrument. I do
> agree that he's more of a licks player than a pure improviser, but so
> what? Pure improvisers often bore me. They're usually more impressive
> than entertaining. One thing you can say about BK -- he knew how to
> set a mood with every piece he played. He was never a boring musician.
Couldn't agree more.
--
Aldri så godt at det ikke er galt for noe
Max Smith
I kinda feel the same way about Kessel as I do about Johnny Smith - I
don't know if he worked it all out in advance or improvised all or part
of his "jazz" recordings - but they sure sound good to me and they are
guitar playing at a very high level (esp. Johnny Smith).
And compared to the interchangeable low-tuned, riff-bound,
knuckle-dragging, mangy, foul-mouthed, poorly dressed, over-tattooed
slag you find in every month's issue of most guitar mags - they are all
gods (and Herb Ellis, too).
Max S
tomb...@jhu.edu
Good musicians often say really stupid things.
tom walls
>
> And compared to the interchangeable low-tuned, riff-bound,
> knuckle-dragging, mangy, foul-mouthed, poorly dressed, over-tattooed
> slag y
Let's leave my motherinlaw out of this! (in homage to Max Leggett)
tonyde...@gmail.com
> Anybody know a good excercise to get some swing in my lines. My lines don't
> swing much, my fingers don't seem to want to do that....really sucks.
When swing must become an exercise the world will surely come to an
end. Outside of listening to the tradition (masters; Charlie
Christian, Louis Armstrong, Lester Young, Bird and Bud Powell come to
mind immediately), being able to displace accents at will is a
powerful tool towards attaining your goal. Often, it is a right hand
problem (plectrum), sometimes not. There is a huge difference, btw,
between players who *think* they are swinging and those who actually
do swing.
-TD
Max Smith
> On Jan 24, 3:40 pm, "Dallas Selman" <marinesur...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>> Anybody know a good excercise to get some swing in my lines. My lines don't
>> swing much, my fingers don't seem to want to do that....really sucks.
>
> When swing must become an exercise the world will surely come to an
> end. Outside of listening to the tradition (masters; Charlie
> Christian, Louis Armstrong, Lester Young, Bird and Bud Powell come to
> mind immediately), being able to displace accents at will is a
> powerful tool towards attaining your goal.
There's a lot in what you say - if you aren't *immersing* yourself in
music that swings (the players you mention above should be more than
sufficient), no amount of explanations about rhythmic displacement or
triplet subdivision will help you swing - those are not *prescriptions*
that will make you swing, but rather *descriptions* of those who already
swing.
Dallas, when you listen to music - are you listening while doing
something else - driving, eating, working, thinking about other stuff -
or are you sitting down in comfortable chair with an adult beverage
(optional) and giving yourself nothing else to do other than *hear* the
music - without analysis - just hearing and enjoying the sound?
Max S.
Another Cleveland Guy
> Anybody know a good excercise to get some swing in my lines. My lines don't
> swing much, my fingers don't seem to want to do that....really sucks.
The more I read the replies and think about this, I think this is
largely a generational issue. I don't have any specific advice to add
to what's been said, except that the original poster should have been
born sooner.
For musicians of a certain generation, swing was what you grew up
hearing. It wasn't all you heard by any means, but it was around
enough that you couldn't really avoid it. Every time Johnny Carson
came back from a break you'd hear Severinson's band swinging their
asses off. Some nights they'd get a featured spot. All the late night
talk shows had swinging bands, and as good as the late night bands are
now, it ain't the same thing.
Swing was part of pop music too. Sinatra, Ella, Louis, Nat and Torme
were on prime TV regularly, and and I don't recall any musicians of my
generation asking about exercises they could play to get a feel for
swing. I'm not being critical of this generation, but it's a fact. I
don't think you can grow up on hip hop and suddenly just fall into
swing.
The only thing I can offer is that if you didn't grow up hearing a
particular idiom, you need to really immerse yourself in it to get a
feel for it. Years ago I lived in Cincinnatti, where I played on a lot
of country music recording sessions. I thought I could BS my way
through a country tune well enough, until I played sessions with some
REAL country players. The truth was that I didn't respect the idiom. I
found that even the simplest rhythm guitar parts were challenging to
play authentically. I don't think I ever did fully nail it.
So I'll just add an "Amen" to all of those who said to listen to the
greats. Listen to them a whole lot. And good luck.
Jonathan
Mike C.
news:cf874b5f-55ab-42be...@m34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 25, 12:25 pm, paul <pcsanw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 25 Jan, 10:19, sheets <jackzuc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Disagree. One of the true marks of greatness is in the number of
>> > imitators
>>
>> maybe for you personally this is true, but it's hard to formulate a
>> strong argument that makes this true for most, mainly because it would
>> mean that people who have highly idosyncratic, hard to imitate styles
>> wouldn't often be candidates for greatness which is clearly not the
>> case (monk, frisell, ornette, miles, etc).
>
> Who's solos are dissected in major jazz studies programs?
>
Certainly not your favorites: Stevie Ray, Eric Johnson, George Benson, etc.
I guess they must suck.
Dallas Selman
of all sorts for 50 years, almost to the exclusion of any other music. I
play double bass, I swing. On guitar its a finger/muscle thing not the ear-
I know what I want to hear. I am try to play out of the Herb Ellis books
(withthe CD's of course).
Thanks everbody for all the sage advice, glad some of you had fun bumping
into each other's egos!
"Another Cleveland Guy" <jgi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7a78d7db-fad5-4087...@b2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
sheets
> "sheets" <jackzuc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
My favorites are Coltrane, Bird, McCoy, Herbie, Miles, etc. You get
points for the cheap shot though.
sheets
> I guess they must suck.
By the way, what is it about Americans that make them hold grudges and
look for opportunities to make cheap shots?!? I've been working all
week with a team of engineers from Dalian, China and one of the most
remarkable things about them is that they are overwhelmingly positive
and it's surprising that the typical dark and sarcastic come-back that
americans seem to delight in does not seem to be a personality trait
of theirs. I know this is a sweeping generalization and that I am
guilty as much as the next american but it's a very interesting
observation...
Max Smith
> On Jan 27, 1:57 pm, "Mike C." <Funkifi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I know this is a sweeping generalization
Well, you are an expert on sweeping, Jack...
Max S.
Max Smith
> I know this is a sweeping generalization
Well, you are an expert on sweeping, Jack...
Max S.
Mike C.
So, sucking aside, although you've said that Stevie Ray is a favorite in the
past, if the major jazz studies programs don't dissect Stevie Ray, Eric
Johnson, George Benson, etc., then they're not great? Is this another corner
you've painted yourself into?
And the question would be as you stated it: who's solos are dissected in
major jazz studies programs? Any idea, or are you just guessing? Let's see,
if a musician isn't a major influence on musicians of other instruments,
then he/she isn't a one of the greats, and if his/her solos aren't dissected
by the majority of major jazz studies programs, then he/she isn't one of the
greats.
Anything else? Any particular shoe size they should be in order to be a
candidate for greatness? I'm actually more interested in a real response to
Paul's statement: "maybe for you personally this is true, but it's hard to
Joe Finn
<jackz...@gmail.com> wrote
>
> By the way, what is it about Americans that make them hold grudges and
> look for opportunities to make cheap shots?!? I've been working all
> week with a team of engineers from Dalian, China and one of the most
> remarkable things about them is that they are overwhelmingly positive
> and it's surprising that the typical dark and sarcastic come-back that
> americans seem to delight in does not seem to be a personality trait
> of theirs. I know this is a sweeping generalization and that I am
> guilty as much as the next american but it's a very interesting
> observation...
This is an interesting thread. What, pray tell, does your work with Chinese
engineers have to do with jazz? Your long history of singling out non jazz
guitar players for praise here means exactly what? What does this say about
your knowledge of what may or may not be going on in "major jazz studies
programs"? Slapping & popping?
You've spread a lot of self serving manure around here for years so don't
get too exited when somebody calls you on it. Cheap shot my ass.
You reap what you sow. ...........joe
--
Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net
sheets
> <jackzuc...@gmail.com> wrote
>
>
>
> > By the way, what is it about Americans that make them hold grudges and
> > look for opportunities to make cheap shots?!? I've been working all
> > week with a team of engineers from Dalian, China and one of the most
> > remarkable things about them is that they are overwhelmingly positive
> > and it's surprising that the typical dark and sarcastic come-back that
> > americans seem to delight in does not seem to be a personality trait
> > of theirs. I know this is a sweeping generalization and that I am
> > guilty as much as the next american but it's a very interesting
> > observation...
>
> This is an interesting thread. What, pray tell, does your work with Chinese
> engineers have to do with jazz?
It's called a conversation. You've never taken something out of the
original context?
> Your long history of singling out non jazz
> guitar players for praise here means exactly what?
That I have diverse interests.
> What does this say about
> your knowledge of what may or may not be going on in "major jazz studies
> programs"?
Nothing. My knowledge of university studies comes from studying and
teaching jazz guitar at the university level as well as doing clinics.
> Slapping & popping?
What about it?
> You've spread a lot of self serving manure around here for years so don't
> get too exited when somebody calls you on it. Cheap shot my ass.
>
> You reap what you sow. ...........joe
WTF Joe?!? You have a serious anger problem. When you wanted a free CD
Review to help you sell a few CDs you didn't mind sending me your CD
for review, encouraging me to post on the subject (I still have the
emails) but now that we've had some disagreements I'm a self-serving,
manure slinging jerk.
Take it offline Joe. I already apologized publicly last time we had a
disagreement but you could not see it within yourself to apologize
back. I'm still puzzled what I've said here that so offends you? All I
can ascertain is that you've done exactly what I've described above
which is to harbor resentment towards me for some past infraction and
then use any opportunity you can to throw pot shots.
Whateva dude.
Max Smith
Of course your friends in China are cheerful because they take the long
view and they know that soon, our great-great-grandchildren will be
their great-great-grandchildren's servants, assuming they can find a use
for a half a billion self-absorbed, overfed illiterates whose primary
skills appear to be eating, playing video games, talking and texting
about nothing on cell phones and constantly monitoring the scintillating
personal lives of celebrity morons.
It took them a while to realize that they didn't need bullets or bombs
to beat us, just the one thing we love and can't get enough of - more
cheap crap - we love to pay the lowest price for everything, no matter
what the cost.
But now they've got it figured out, so of course they are very optimistic.
Max S.
tomb...@jhu.edu
> Jack,
>
> Of course your friends in China are cheerful because they take the long
> view and they know that soon, our great-great-grandchildren will be
> their great-great-grandchildren's servants, assuming they can find a use
> for a half a billion self-absorbed, overfed illiterates whose primary
> skills appear to be eating, playing video games, talking and texting
> about nothing on cell phones and constantly monitoring the scintillating
> personal lives of celebrity morons.
>
> It took them a while to realize that they didn't need bullets or bombs
> to beat us, just the one thing we love and can't get enough of - more
> cheap crap - we love to pay the lowest price for everything, no matter
> what the cost.
>
> But now they've got it figured out, so of course they are very optimistic.
Also, it's next to impossible to blow Sheets of Snark (tm) in a
foreign language. You pretty much have to be a native to do SoS.
tom walls
And that, gentlemen, is the long and short of it.
Formerly Sideways
I've been working all
> week with a team of engineers from Dalian, China and one of the most
> remarkable things about them is that they are overwhelmingly positive
> and it's surprising that the typical dark and sarcastic come-back that
> americans seem to delight in does not seem to be a personality trait
> of theirs.
Which is exactly why I objected to your comment that Grant Green was
not up to Miles' standard of swing. What's the point? Listening to
Grant Green is a good idea for any guitarist, isn't it? Doesn't mean
they don't listen to other things, as well. Why did you feel
compelled to throw in the qualifiers?
Mark Kleinhaut
>
> - Show quoted text -
Jack, you're wasting your time with a putz. Ignore and move on.
jimmyb
I agree with Mark. once you try to disect a swing feel it no longer
has any feel at all
jimmyb
> On 25 Jan, 14:58, sheets <jackzuc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 25, 12:25 pm, paul <pcsanw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On 25 Jan, 10:19, sheets <jackzuc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Disagree. One of the true marks of greatness is in the number of imitators
>
>
> way indicative of greatness. just because they're not analyzing woody
> shaw solos at the new school doesn't mean he's not a jazz great.
>
> to the original point, you have to have two qualities to have
> imitators. you have to have something to imitate (a style), and that
> style has to be imitatable. this is simply not the case for a large
> subset of jazz greats (the aforementioned monk, frisell, etc).
Because usually the teacher can't play well enough to inspire his
students
jimmyb
> get those "proper" box sets of dexter,stitt,miles trane, bud powell
> etc and listen to it ......dont try to play along with it..its too
> hard.
>
> give up the "hand strength" idea its BS.
>
> listen to lots of bop and it will absorb all by itself and come out in
> your playing.
Yes it defintely does work that way. Just listen!
Joe Finn
>
> WTF Joe?!? You have a serious anger problem. When you wanted a free CD
> Review to help you sell a few CDs you didn't mind sending me your CD
> for review, encouraging me to post on the subject (I still have the
> emails) but now that we've had some disagreements I'm a self-serving,
> manure slinging jerk.
Firstly, I'm not angry. I'm not sure how you got that impression.
I've done several cds and have sent out hundreds and hundreds of promotional
and review copies. Sending one to you is something I don't recollect. I'll
try not to make that mistake again.
Nobody called you a jerk either.
>
> Take it offline Joe. I already apologized publicly last time we had a
> disagreement but you could not see it within yourself to apologize
> back. I'm still puzzled what I've said here that so offends you? All I
> can ascertain is that you've done exactly what I've described above
> which is to harbor resentment towards me for some past infraction and
> then use any opportunity you can to throw pot shots.
When Ira Gitler coined the phrase "Sheets of Sound", he was looking
for a way to describe the monumental and historic breakthroughs of
John Coltrane. Your appropriation of this term for commercial purposes
is odious and without originality. Neither does your work profit from
such a comparison because Coltrane's achievements are to a book of
guitar licks what a formula one Ferrari is to a little girl's bike
with training wheels.
Besides, the whole approach is flawed. Learning 500 hot guitar licks
does not a great improviser make. The best improvisation goes way beyond
all the scale/chord stuff, all the licks and all the rest of the formulaic
approaches that are the antithesis of spontaneity. The best improvisation
is dealing directly with the origination of fresh thematic material and
developing it in context.
Finally, your use of this newsgroup to incessantly hawk this product of
yours is getting really old. This together with the many wonderful clips
you continue to post and your obsession with selling equipment here is
tiresome indeed. Transforming a jazz newsgroup into a jaz newsgroup must be
awfully hard work, but you should try it from this end. ...joe
RickH®
Yeah Mel Torme can swing.
I agree with the whole listening, immersion, theory, if you listen to
a lot of jazz you'll swing. But there are different feels of swing,
there's the dixieland St Louis Blues kinda swing, the "old Benny
Goodman" kinda swing songs like Rose Room, theres the Broadway
showtune kinda swing that gets much of its accent from the lyrics and
dance, theres the lightfooted Fred Astair "foxtrot" kinda swing,
theres the more muscular Gene Kelly April In Paris kinda swing, theres
the Bop swing and theres the modern minor blues kinda swing that
begins to go funk, theres Western swing, theres the Cherokee kinda
swing where the melody doesnt swing but the solos do, theres the Basie
big band kinda swing, on and on.
Now to the OP what kind of swing were you talking about?
tonyde...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
I had the great privilege and honor to work with Mel Torme about 32
year ago. Yes, he did swing and he swung playing drums too. Mel put up
with no jive, either. If a player was not cutting the mustard, he'd
get booted off the stand pronto. I imagine the OT meant swing in the
sense of the antithesis of *stiffness*, which may be considered gold
in certain other idioms. It matters not if swinging within or without
a specific style; swinging means swinging; period, whether you play
triplets or not (I'll keep playing the hell out of triplets for my
mix; even if and when I do my quartal and intervallic groove). Part of
swinging is also telling a mf'n story when playing and not merely
treating playing like its baseball. Music is the home run.
-TD
Mark Kleinhaut
> <jackzuc...@gmail.com> wrote
Joe, this level of personal attack on Jack only serves to illustrate
what a douchebag you are. Jack was in a discussion with someone else
that had absolutely nothing to do with you, yet you go and stink up
the joint with ill informed personal attacks. What the frick is wrong
with you? Do everyone here a big favor and go get some counseling, or
at least get back on your meds.
jimmyb
> <jackzuc...@gmail.com> wrote
wow! how did this get so fucked up? It is only opinions from various
folk. Jack is a great player and has written a fine book. We should
all be happy that some other musician is trying to make a living and
getting what he deserves for his efforts. Be happy for any guitar
player making a go of it, especially one that is successful like Jack
What is the matter with guitar players.
I know I have some views that are not the accepted norm of jazz
education but that doesn't make me a bad person. Either take or leave
it. Of course we all think we are right . I see no need for this
type of posting, it proves nothing, helps no one and just casts a real
negative almost stupid vibe over all the good info here. It makes all
the good look not so good. Give it some thought everyone! and get
back to me....
in other words - lighten the fuck up, it's only music, none of us are
flying the shuttle or performing open heart surgery!
cl...@claymoore.com
> in other words - lighten the fuck up, it's only music, none of us are
> flying the shuttle or performing open heart surgery!
Crap! I was planning to do both of those things later this week and
now you go and say this.
tonyde...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Personally I am OK with all of it Jimmy, I just don't want anybody
suck'n off my scene.
-T
Kevin Collins
LOL, well to follow that one up: there must be a newsgroup somewhere
where cardiothoracic surgeons are flaming one another over practice
methods and the promotion thereof. That'd be about as much use to your
aortic valve repair technique as some of these posts have been to the
OP about his swing feel.
-Kevin
gant...@comcast.net
that has nothing to do w/ who swings longest or hardest or bestest and
hopefully won't offend anyone. It just occurred to me that my
playing took on a whole new aspect when i began singing the lines that
I played. The first thing that happened was that I could no longer
play those constant streams of 1/8th notes punctuated by occasional
1/6th not triplets when I found a 3 note per string scale that seemed
to fit the changes. I had to breath. That made me stop playing every
now and then. What a concept. I think that in itself helped the
"swing" factor quite a bit. It certainly made me more melodic and
occasionally more rhythmically inventive.
And now, back to the...
Gantt
Kevin Collins
wrote:
> Wow! I just thought of something that no one seems to have mentioned
> that has nothing to do w/ who swings longest or hardest or bestest and
> hopefully won't offend anyone. It just occurred to me that my
> playing took on a whole new aspect when i began singing the lines that
> I played. The first thing that happened was that I could no longer
> play those constant streams of 1/8th notes punctuated by occasional
> 1/6th not triplets when I found a 3 note per string scale that seemed
> to fit the changes. I had to breath. That made me stop playing every
> now and then. What a concept. I think that in itself helped the
> "swing" factor quite a bit. It certainly made me more melodic and
> occasionally more rhythmically inventive.
>
> And now, back to the...
>
The fight, or the hockey game? The singing and resting idea is a great
one, btw. I think it's about time I get back to doing some of that, as
my playing has taken a turn for the "more dense/eggheaded", lately.
Thanks!
-Kevin
gant...@comcast.net
> On Jan 29, 3:33 pm, "ganttm...@comcast.net" <ganttm...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
> > Wow! I just thought of something that no one seems to have mentioned
> > that has nothing to do w/ who swings longest or hardest or bestest and
> > hopefully won't offend anyone. It just occurred to me that my
> > playing took on a whole new aspect when i began singing the lines that
> > I played. The first thing that happened was that I could no longer
> > play those constant streams of 1/8th notes punctuated by occasional
> > 1/6th not triplets when I found a 3 note per string scale that seemed
> > to fit the changes. I had to breath. That made me stop playing every
> > now and then. What a concept. I think that in itself helped the
> > "swing" factor quite a bit. It certainly made me more melodic and
> > occasionally more rhythmically inventive.
>
> > And now, back to the...
>
Gantt