jazz 101

[dunlop212]

I have been playing around with the old Gershwin tune, S'Wonderful.

A vanilla look at the first 8 bars looks like this

Eb | | Edim | | Fm7 | | Bb7 |

Of course, I would not play Eb, Fm7, or Bb7, especially since they are
each two bars. I know lots of chord subs to deal with sitting on the I
chord for two bars, and of course the II V can be handled a hundred
ways.

But I have a big hole in my chord knowledge when it comes to diminished
chords. I know lots of diminished chord shapes, and of course each of
those shapes can be moved up and down the neck, because diminished
chords can use eny note in the chord as a root. So I find myself faking
a chord sub just by playing inversions.

This is all because of my appalling ignorance of the whole diminished
chord thing. I can never keep straight the difference between
diminished, half diminished, m7b5, etc.

I am away from the guitar right now, and am trying to do this in my
head, so I hope I have this right: that Edim is also a Bb7, right? So
would Bb7 chords be a reasonable substitution?

Is this a I VI II V progression with the diminished chord substituted
for the VI? If so, is Cm7 something to play with?

I guess the short question here is what do pros do when they are
comping and see two bars of a diminished chord on the chart?

[JP]

Hi,

You are a bit out of whack. Edim is not a Bb7.

Take any chord tone of your diminished chord. Lower it a half step. And
then what ever note your you have is the root of Dom7b9 chord that the
diminished chord can fuctuion as.

So
Edim

E G Bb Dbb (or C#)

lower each half stop

Eb Gb A C

so Edim = Eb7b9, Gb7b9, A7b9, C7b9

So...in your progression...the C7b9 stands out as a a suitable sub...the
Edim functioning as V/ii (v of the iimi7 chord)

Hope that helps

JP

"dunlop212" <ed_h...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:1120399615....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

[Patrick Hanrahan]

"dunlop212" <ed_h...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:1120399615....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> I have been playing around with the old Gershwin tune, S'Wonderful.
>
> A vanilla look at the first 8 bars looks like this
>
> Eb | | Edim | | Fm7 | | Bb7 |

> This is all because of my appalling ignorance of the whole diminished

> chord thing. I can never keep straight the difference between
> diminished, half diminished, m7b5, etc.

Diminished = R, Minor 3rd, Diminished 5th, Diminished 7th.

Half Diminished is BIGGER. = Root, Minor 3rd, Diminished 5th, MINOR 7th.
It a bit confusing, like subtracting negative numbers. [14 -(-6) = +20]
What? I subtracted something and it got bigger????

So confusing that it has lead to the Oxymoron 'Fully Diminished'!

Think of it this way:

Major to Minor, Minor to Half Diminished, Half Diminished to Diminished.
The chord is getting smaller. Or the distance from note to notes are
getting closer and closer, like a room that's shrinking in size.
Particularly the root and the 7th:

R 3rd 5th 7th

E G# B D# = Major

E G B D = Minor 7th

E G Bb D = Half diminished or [minor 7th b5]

E G Bb Db = Diminished 7th

> I am away from the guitar right now, and am trying to do this in my
> head, so I hope I have this right: that Edim is also a Bb7, right? So
> would Bb7 chords be a reasonable substitution?

E dim = Its C7b9.
E G Bb Db
3 5 b7 b9

Is this a I VI II V progression with the diminished chord substituted
> for the VI? If so, is Cm7 something to play with?

I think the E dim can be seen as a Vi dim chord in 1st inv. Or as a V/ii.
You colud use a Cmin7 and it will work becuse of Fith Fall:
I IV Vii iii vi ii V I
But not if eveyone elses is playing E Dim7th or C7b9.

> I guess the short question here is what do pros do when they are
> comping and see two bars of a diminished chord on the chart?

I'll let the Pro's answer that one ;) But try playing around with C7b9's
like xx89109 [Bb E A Db]
Allso check out Tom's site for the Big 3
http://www.tomlippincott.com/big3.php
That will help understand Diminished as Dom7b9's

[Joey Goldstein]

dunlop212 wrote:
>
> I have been playing around with the old Gershwin tune, S'Wonderful.
>
> A vanilla look at the first 8 bars looks like this
>
> Eb | | Edim | | Fm7 | | Bb7 |
>
> Of course, I would not play Eb, Fm7, or Bb7, especially since they are
> each two bars. I know lots of chord subs to deal with sitting on the I
> chord for two bars, and of course the II V can be handled a hundred
> ways.

Chord charts are not meant to be taken literally in most playing
situations, especially jazz.
However, playing Ebmaj7 instead of Eb does not really constitue chord substitution.
Even doing things like playing a chormatic approach chord to Ebmaj7 (eg.
Dmaj7) on the weak beats (Eg. 2 or 4) isn't really chord substitution.
That stuff is just called embellishment.
IMO

> But I have a big hole in my chord knowledge when it comes to diminished
> chords. I know lots of diminished chord shapes, and of course each of
> those shapes can be moved up and down the neck, because diminished
> chords can use eny note in the chord as a root. So I find myself faking
> a chord sub just by playing inversions.
>
> This is all because of my appalling ignorance of the whole diminished
> chord thing. I can never keep straight the difference between
> diminished, half diminished, m7b5, etc.
>
> I am away from the guitar right now, and am trying to do this in my
> head, so I hope I have this right: that Edim is also a Bb7, right?

No. Edim7 here is functioning as C7b9/E, V7-of-IIm (written in an
analysis as "V7/IIm").
Edim7/C = C7b9
Note: IIm7 is Fm7. Its related V7 chord is C7.

> So
> would Bb7 chords be a reasonable substitution?
>
> Is this a I VI II V progression with the diminished chord substituted
> for the VI? If so, is Cm7 something to play with?

You're getting closer here.
VIm7 is often converted to VI7 (more rightly called V7/IIm) when it
moves to IIm7. The maj 3rd of the VI7 chord is an artificialy created
leading tone that targets the root of IIm7. The process is called
"tonicization". I.e. The root of IIm becomes a temporary tonic of a
secondary key, in this case, the key of F minor.

> I guess the short question here is what do pros do when they are
> comping and see two bars of a diminished chord on the chart?

Inversions of dim7 chords work, as well as voicings/inversions of C7b9.
It's a good idea to have some sort of a logical movement, especially in
the bass, at the point of the chord change into the Fm7 chord, so be
careful how far away from Edim7 or C7b9 you get.
The logical predecessors to the F bass would be E (the original
movement), C (the functional root movement), or G (the upper neighbor
tone). Also, Gb7 is the tritone substitute dominant of C7. Using Gb7 as
an approach chord to Fm7 can be very effective too.

--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

[Willie K. Yee, MD]

Another way to think of it:

The E diminished is supposed to "lead" you to the Fm7 chord, just like
the Bb7 leads you Eb.

Therefore, you can play ANYTHING over this chord as long as the last
note is one ore 1/2 step away from a note in the Fm7th. That note will
then resolve the melody line to the Fm7th note. An F#m7th or Em7th
arpeggio for example will work.

The notes may not be part of the E diminished chord or scale, but it
does not matter. What matters it will be the resolution.

On 3 Jul 2005 07:06:55 -0700, "dunlop212" <ed_h...@bellsouth.net>
wrote:

[dunlop212]

(sound of hand hitting forehead) C7b9, of course. Call it musical
dyslexia.

Then patch together something that heads toward that II V that comes
after it (and maintain that momentum all the way back to the I).

Thanks guys.

PS: What other standards stay on a diminished chord for two bars?

[Kurt Shapiro]

My 3 cents:

"Half-diminished" is just a shorthand term for -7(b5), a/k/a "minor seven
flat five." Unlike a diminished seventh, a half diminished has a major
third between the 5th and 7th. For example, in the key of C major, B
half-diminished is just BDFA. B diminished (as opposed to half-diminished)
would be B D F Ab.

The standard inside Berklee extensions for a half-diminished (-7b5) would be
Pb2 or T9, T11, Tb13 ("P" means passing tone, "T" means tension). For
example, in the key of C, a B half-diminished would be a C major scale B C D
E F G A (1 Pb2 b3 T11 b5 Tb13 b7)

OR

In the key of D minor, however, you would probably use T9 instead of Pb2, so
you'd get T9, T11, Tb13. Thus a D "melodic minor" scale: B C# D E F G A (1
T9 b3 T11 b5 Tb13 b7).

"Diminished" is a very different animal from a "half-diminished." For a
true diminished, the standard inside yada yada chord extensions are any note
a half step below a chord tone. For example, a B diminished seventh (Bo7)
would have chord tones B D F Ab and extensions A# C# E G (T7 T9 T11 Tb13).

However, as Joey G pointed out, I usually find full diminished (as opposed
to half-diminished) chords in fake books or chord charts are usually
functioning as some type of dominant 7th over a non-root note, and thus the
chord really takes a different set of extensions than a true diminished.
For example, charts often might say Bo7 (B diminished seven), when what's
really going on is a G7b9 over its third (G7b9/B).

When I run across a diminished chord, I don't take it for granted that it's
a true diminished and usually stay away from non-melody-note extensions
until I've had a chance to analyze it, unless of course I hear something
obvious.

If you really must go diminished, one of my fav subs is major triads spaced
a minor third apart starting on any note a half-step below a chord tone.

For example, on C dimininished, using major triads B D F Ab

B D# F# = T7, b3, b5
D F#A = T9, b5, o7
F A C =T11, o7, Root
Ab C Eb = Tb13, Root, b3

I think faking a chord sub by using inversions, as you said you are doing,
is an excellent idea, at least until you've had chance to really analyze the
situation. Just watch that 7th.

As usual YMMV, your ear is the ultimate arbiter, and Goldstein'll probably
straighten me out and explain it better.

"dunlop212" <ed_h...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:1120399615....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> But I have a big hole in my chord knowledge when it comes to diminished

[Kurt Shapiro]

In order save some of our regular members some valuable time, I have
precomposed their various responses.

Richard Bornman: "I have posted a clip of Benson playing over a diminished
chord at [url omitted], thus proving again Benson is the greatest guitar
player since J.S. Bach."

Joey Goldstein: [logical explanation, most likely. But occasionally . . .]
"actually the square root of pi is E sum over the planet jupiter, and
Shapiro's got it wrong."

Jack Zucker: "Have you bought my book?, Sheets of Sound" [this is a great
book, BTW]

GregD: "Hey, I just bought a new guitar, and I'm thinking about buying . .
. "

Mark Kleinhaut: "You boys are such a bunch of idiots." [compared to
Kleinhaut, this is probably true].

David Raleigh Arnold: "You don't need the answer. Buy my book."

Max Leggett: "Tally Ho, old chap! Have you heard the one about the . . . "

Five Sharp: "Estuzen veerdoten vahsgutten. Check out my guitar face while
I'm playing a diminished chord on this beautiful vintage guitar."

Joe Finn: "Get a teacher."

Willie K. Yee: "It's about sex."

Johnny Asia: "Viva la Revolution!"

Pat Smith: "Carr Rambler."

Tim Berens: "I suggest you approach a diminished chord by first giving up
meat."

Kevin Van Sant: "Okay, it was me. I confess."

PT: "What is the origin of the word 'diminished?'" By the way, I may be an
old fart, but I'm having a blast and my girlfriend's younger than your
wife."

Clif K a/k/a Jurupari: "In my system, a diminished chord is formed by
altering a major scale with . . . And George Bush is a freakin' murderous
communist scumbag." [no dispute on this last point]

Charles Robinson: "Back when I was playing with King Oliver . . . "

Jimmy Bruno: "Bornman, I'm gonna' kick your ass! This isn't just about
guitar anymore! Aww . . . hell with it."

"dunlop212" <ed_h...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:1120399615....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

[Five Sharp]

LOL!

#####

"Kurt Shapiro" <kurtWITHOUTT...@hoNOtmSPAMailTHANKS.com> schreef
in bericht news:S9GdnbOcMPV...@comcast.com...

[Max Leggett]

On Sun, 3 Jul 2005 13:21:09 -0700, "Kurt Shapiro"
<kurtWITHOUTT...@hoNOtmSPAMailTHANKS.com> wrote:

>In order save some of our regular members some valuable time, I have
>precomposed their various responses.

Jolly wizard, what!!

[juru...@aol.com]

Now that I've partially resuscitated from laughing my ass off at Kurt's
post downthread, I guess I'll risk an answer.

Guilty and remorseless, btw, Kurt! When I read that I was glad I
wasn't Joe Pass, or I'd have swallowed a pick.

The #1 dim7 almost always sounds like an altered 6 chord, so anything
(in Eb) made from C#melodic or F harmonic minor body parts is going to
smell like an altered secondary dominant at 6.

If you really really want something else, you can sub Em7b5-A7b9
somewhere in there or mix it with the 6 dominant.

And Bush is a comsymp draft-dodgin' Cheney sock puppet, but I
digress.....

Clif

[get...@gmail.com]

Inspired!
Ken Willinger
http://homepage.mac.com/getken/

[tomb...@jhu.edu]

dunlop212 wrote:
>
> PS: What other standards stay on a diminished chord for two bars?

"Caravan" is a good one for practicing diminished sounds. You get 12
bars non-stop (the Ellington-Tizol tune, not the Van Morrison).

I also seem to recall an original blues by Jim Hall that had a lot of
dim chords, but I can't remember the title of it.

[Max Leggett]

On 3 Jul 2005 14:03:38 -0700, "juru...@aol.com" <juru...@aol.com>
wrote:

>Now that I've partially resuscitated from laughing my ass off at Kurt's
>post downthread, I guess I'll risk an answer.
>
> Guilty and remorseless, btw, Kurt! When I read that I was glad I
>wasn't Joe Pass, or I'd have swallowed a pick.
>
>The #1 dim7 almost always sounds like an altered 6 chord, so anything
>(in Eb) made from C#melodic or F harmonic minor body parts is going to
>smell like an altered secondary dominant at 6.
>
>If you really really want something else, you can sub Em7b5-A7b9
>somewhere in there or mix it with the 6 dominant.

Quand je joue le Em7b5-A7b9, je toujours bouve un Ricard so my
fingaires zey wiggle avec le grand complexite.

[mark (sixstringtheoryDOTcom)]

If I may take the liberty of revising one of your responses...

>
> David Raleigh Arnold: "You don't need the answer. Buy my book."
>

That would be incorrect. Without a doubt the response would be:

David Raleigh Arnold: "Do my tech."

[Unknown]

On Sun, 3 Jul 2005 13:21:09 -0700, "Kurt Shapiro"
<kurtWITHOUTT...@hoNOtmSPAMailTHANKS.com> wrote:

>In order save some of our regular members some valuable time, I have
>precomposed their various responses.
>

100 points for Kurt. That was the funniest post I've read it a long
time.

It's hard to believe a carnivore could come up with something so
funny.

Tim

http://timberens.com
A Website for Guitarists
Learn something...Have some fun
timb at erinet dot com

[juru...@aol.com]

my
fingaires zey wiggle avec le grand complexite.

sans fingaires, peau complexite....

Digitte Bardot

[Keith Freeman]

> I also seem to recall an original blues by Jim Hall that had a lot of
> dim chords, but I can't remember the title of it.

Careful.

-Keith

Music samples, tips, Portable Changes at
http://home.wanadoo.nl/keith.freeman/

E-mail: keith DOT freeman AT wanadoo DOT nl

[Willie K. Yee, MD]

On 3 Jul 2005 14:28:22 -0700, "tomb...@jhu.edu" <tomb...@jhu.edu>
wrote:

"Careful". It's a 16 bar blues.

[Willie K. Yee, MD]

On Sun, 3 Jul 2005 13:21:09 -0700, "Kurt Shapiro"
<kurtWITHOUTT...@hoNOtmSPAMailTHANKS.com> wrote:

>In order save some of our regular members some valuable time, I have
>precomposed their various responses.

>Willie K. Yee: "It's about sex."
>>

>> Eb | | Edim | | Fm7 | | Bb7 |
>>

You caught me at an odd moment on that one.

My usual reply would be:

Do NOT play ANY scale over this. Scales bad. Scales make you sound
like . . . sound like . . . like . . . like ME.

[Kurt Shapiro]

Wasn't sure how folks would react, but once I hit that "send" button it was
too late.

"Kurt Shapiro" <kurtWITHOUTT...@hoNOtmSPAMailTHANKS.com> wrote in
message news:S9GdnbOcMPV...@comcast.com...

[ott...@hotmail.com]

I don't think Jim's tune had a lot of Diminished, to me it sounded like
b9b5, or basic Alt chords?? Not 100% sure tho.
Bg

[dunlop212]

Hey; even though it's my thread, I file enough dumb posts here to merit
a a spoof response. I am going to do my own:

"dunlop212 replied

No you moron, Gibson stopped using clear knobs in 1948. As if one of
you MIK playing plebes would know. Now can someone tell me the
difference between a 7th and major 7th chord?"

[Tom Walls]

In article <S9GdnbOcMPV...@comcast.com>,
kurtWITHOUTT...@hoNOtmSPAMailTHANKS.com says...

>
> In order save some of our regular members some valuable time, I have
> precomposed their various responses.
>
>
>

Right on target!
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus

[Jimmy Bruno]

That's pretty funny, but after meeting RB I wouldn't say that. He's is a
very nice guy
"Tom Walls" <tw...@cornell.edu> wrote in message
news:dae7pb$6e3$4...@ruby.cit.cornell.edu...

[Jon Fox]

Kurt Shapiro wrote:
> In order save some of our regular members some valuable time, I have
> precomposed their various responses.
>

Hilarious.

Jon

--

www.jonfoxjazz.com

[charles robinson]

Kurt Shapiro: "If you just put a bass string on there where the little E
string usually goes you can eliminate the need for diminished chords
altogether":)

Charlie

"Kurt Shapiro" <kurtWITHOUTT...@hoNOtmSPAMailTHANKS.com> wrote in
message news:S9GdnbOcMPV...@comcast.com...

[Kurt Shapiro]

My apologies JB.

I know you buried the hatchet for RB some time ago, but the possibilities
for hilarity from when you chewed him out were just too good to resist.

Besides, even though you're a bad-ass, we all suspect you're getting a bit
long in the tooth for fisticuffs.

Yikes, I could be next!

"Jimmy Bruno" <ji...@jimmybruno.com> wrote in message
news:nq2dnXiYDr4...@comcast.com...

[Kurt Shapiro]

My ultimate goal is to dispense with keyboard players. ;-)

"charles robinson" <robins...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:FdmdnZu_qqa...@comcast.com...

[Kurt Shapiro]

Ahh, yes. I do stand corrected.

"mark (sixstringtheoryDOTcom)" <mark2741@no_chance_spammers_verizon.net>
wrote in message news:eq_xe.31869$Cm6.20801@trndny02...

[jimmyb]

No apology necessary. I think it's funny too. ! Poor Richard