Non functioning dominants
Guy Snape
have been lurking.
I've started listening to the Emily Remler lessons at allthingsemily.com
and the first part is about using melodic minor over non functioning
dominant chords, e.g. D mel minor over a G7 that doesn't resolve to C or
Cm. She gives the example of the the second chord (G7) in Desafinado,
which I know works the same way as in Take the A Train. Off the top of
my head, the second and fourth chords in Stella spring to mind.
Is there a list anywhere of other examples, or can anyone suggest any
others?
Thanks,
- guy
paulmitc...@gmail.com
wrote:
Check this thread from a few months ago concerning the function of the
II chord in 'Donna Lee':
Guy Snape
Thanks Paul, that's a great thread that I'd not seen before.
- guy
richieb
wrote:
How about any blues progression....
..richie
t...@timberens.com
wrote:
> I've started listening to the Emily Remler lessons at allthingsemily.com
> and the first part is about using melodic minor over non functioning
> dominant chords,
I say, let those lazy non-functioning dominants get out and find
themselves a function. Why should I have to play scales over them
when they are too lazy to function for themselves?
This is yet another example of how this liberal jazz is creating a
downbeat-to-coda nanny state.
Function on your own, you lazy, non-functioning dominant chords.
Tim Berens
http://timberens.com
Rick Stone
news:626Vl.36788$OO7....@text.news.virginmedia.com...
In my experience, Dominants where this usually sounds good are 13(#11) chord
(or at least can be extended that way) and usually sit on the:
bII7, II7, bIII7, IV7, bV7, bVI7 and bVII7
But while this is "generally" true, as always you need to LISTEN. What is
the tune asking for?
Musically Yours,
Rick Stone
email: rick...@rickstone.com
website: http://www.rickstone.com
Visit me on MySpace at: http://www.myspace.com/rickstonemusic
Check out my Electronic Press-Kit online at:
http://www.sonicbids.com/rickstone
Check out my recordings at http://www.cdbaby.com/all/jazzand
Watch my videos on YouTube at: http://www.youtube.com/user/jazzand
thomas
That's why we have all these illegal Mexican harmonies sneaking into
our country, sniffing around our bass lines, and stealing resolutions
from the good, hard-working American dom7th chords.
On-topic: Pretty much any standard tune with a II7 will take a #11 on
that chord and sound good. Who cares what scale it comes from? If you
have to think scale-wise, then if the II7 resolves to iimin7, you can
also use the melodic minor scale that gives you the altered chord.
That one sounds good at the end of the harmony, right before it
changes to the minor seven. So if you have two bards of II7, you can
think lydian mel minor on the first bar, and then think altered mel
minor on the second bar.
Joey Goldstein
The term is really "non dominant functioning dom7 chord". It means a
dom7 chord type that is does not have dominant function within the key.
Most dom7 chords *with D funct* are pretty easy to spot because they
resolve to a chord whose root is up a P4th or down a P5th from the root
of the dom7 chord. Eg. G7-C.
The so-called "tritone-substitute dominant chord" is a substitute chord
for a D funct dom7 chord whose root is built a tritone away from the
root of the D funct dom7 chord. Eg. Db7 is the tritone sub ("SubV7") for
G7 as V7 in the key of C or C minor. So G7-C becomes Db7-C. Both the G7
and the Db7, in this case, are said to possess D funct in the key.
So, the only two dom7 chords that actually have D funct are V7 and SubV7.
But D funct dom7 chords also have several deceptive cadences.
Most typically the V7 chord will resolve to a chord that is a
"like-function substitute" for the I (or Im) chord, i.e. it will resolve
to another T funct chord whose root is not the tonic of the key.
Egs.
D T
V7 I
G7 C
D T
V7 VIm
G7 Am
D T
V7 IIIm
G7 Em
This also means that these same deceptive cadences apply to the SubV7
chord as well.
SD D T
IIm7 SubV7 I
Dm7 Db7 C
SD D T
IIm7 SubV7 VIm7
Dm7 Db7 Am7
The concept can be widened so that any time a V7 or SubV7 chord moves to
a diatonic chord other than I it can be seen as a deceptive cadence.
So V7 and SubV7 are *always* dominant function dom7 chords.
This is also true of secondary dominant chords (and their related SubV7
chords) because a secondary dominant chord is functioning as V7 in the
secondary key.
The non-dominant-function dom7 chords will always have at least one note
that is not a member of the diatonic scale(s) associated with the key,
and they have to be a chord that can not be seen to be resolving in the
manner that a true V7 or SubV7 (or secondary dominant or secondary
tritone substitute dominant) chord resolves in.
Often these chords have what is called "subdominant minor function"
(SDM) within the key. So they do have a harmonic function, it's just not
D function. SDM function chords are chords that have a similar sound and
function to the SD chords of the parallel minor key. [The parallel minor
key to C major is C minor.]
There is no SDM function within minor keys. In minor keys these chords
are simply SD chords. The characteristic note of SD chords in minor keys
is scale degree b6. Eg. In C minor, most of the chords that contain Ab
will have SD function. Within the key of C major, many chords that
contain Ab will be said to have SDM function.
In a nutshell, SDM chords sound similar to and function similarly to IVm.
The most common examples of non-dominant-function dom7 chords, in my
experience, are: IV7, bVII7 and bVI7.
In C major, bVII7 would be Bb7 when it does not progress to Am. If it
does progress to Am then it would be SubV7/VIm.
Eg.
T D SD SDM T
I V7/IV IV bVII7 I
C C7 |F Bb7 |C ||
In C major, bVI7 would be Ab7 when it does not progress to G7. If it
does progress to G then it would be SubV7/V.
Eg.
T SDM T
I bVI7 I
C |Ab7 |C ||
In C major, IV7 would be F7 when it does not progress to Em. If it does
progress to Em then it would be SubV7/IIIm.
Eg.
T SDM T
I IV7 I
C |F7 |C ||
IV7 is a special case of SDM function because it contains scale degree 6
rather than scale degree b6. But it is seen as deriving from the
parallel minor key by means of the parallel melodic minor scale. I.e. In
the key of C minor the chord F7 occurs as the chord built on scale
degree 4 of the c mel minor scale.
The lydian dominant scale (aka lyd b7) from the root of the chord is the
most often used chord-scale on IV7, bVII7 and bVI7.
In C: on F7 use F lyd b7 (the 4th mode of C mel minor), on Bb7 use Bb
lyd b7 (the 4th mode of F mel minor), on Ab7 use Ab lyd b7 (the 4th mode
of Eb mel minor).
Another common instance of non-dominant-function dom7 chords is when
dom7 chords are used in what is called "constant structure harmony" or
"planing". The chord progression for the old pop/rock tune Bad Bad Leroy
Brown is a great example of this type of non-dominant function dom7 chords.
C7 | |D7 | |E7 |F7 |G7 F7 |C7 |
The only D funct chord in that progression G7.
The 2nd chord of Desafinado or of Take The A Train (often labelled as
"II7") is often cited as an example of a non-dominant-function dom7
chord. But that's not a correct analysis IMO. In both of these
progressions the II7 chord *does* proceed to V7, but it is a delayed
resolution owing to the fact that the IIm7 chord is interpolated between
the II7 and the V7 chords. The omission of the IIm7 chord would hardly
affect either progression in any significant way. Therefore the correct
analysis is really just V7/V rather than "II7".
Regardless of the functional analysis it is common to apply a
chord-scale of lyd b7 from the root of these chords when playing on
them, even though a more basic default would mixolydian.
The lyd b7 scale is also the most common default for most players on
most SubV7 and secondary SubV7 chords.
In C:
On Db7 (as SubV7) moving to C, use Db lyd b7 (Ab mel min)
On Eb7 (as SubV7/IIm) moving to Dm, use Eb lyd b7 (Bb mel min)
On F7 (as Subv7/IIIm) moving to Em, use F lyd b7 (C mel minor)
On Gb7 (as Subv7/IV) moving to F, use Gb lyd b7 (Db mel min)
On Ab7 (as Subv7/V) moving to G, use Ab lyd b7 (Eb mel min)
On Bb7 (as SubV7/VIm) moving to Am, use Bb lyd b7 (F mel min)
[Note: There is no V7/VII, so there is also no SubV7/VII.]
It's good to know that...
The lyd b7 sound used on a SubV7 chord is identical, in most ways, to
using the "altered dominant scale" on the original V7 chord.
Egs.
Db lyd b7 = G altered
Eb lyd b7 = A altered
etc.
Here are some other chord-scale relationship generalities that usually
apply:
On V7 in a major key, the default chord-scale will be mixolydian from
the root of the chord (the 5th mode of the major scale built on the
tonic of the key).
On V7 in a minor key, the default chord-scale will be mixolydian b2b6
from the root of the chord (the 5th mode of the harmonic minor scale
built on the tonic of the key).
Secondary dom7 chords that resolve to a diatonic chord of the primary
key in which the chord of resolution contains a major 3rd, will normally
take the mixolydian scale from the root of the dom7 chord (same as the
5th mode of the major scale built on the root of the target chord).
On D7 as V7/V, use D mixolydian (aka G major).
On C7 as V7/IV, use C mixolydian (aka F major).
Secondary dom7 chords that resolve to a diatonic chord of the primary
key in which the chord of resolution contains a minor 3rd, will normally
take the mixolydian b2 b6 scale from the root of the dom7 chord (same as
the 5th mode of the harmonic minor scale built on the root of the target
chord).
On A7 as V7/IIm, use A Mix b2b6 (aka D harm min).
On B7 as V7/IIIm, use B Mix b2b6 (aka E harm min).
On E7 as V7/VIm, use E Mix b2b6 (aka A harm min).
Now, oftentimes V7 in a major key is coloured as if it were V7 in a
minor key. So it is not uncommon at all to hear G Mix b2b6 or G altered
sounds on G7 as V7 in the key of C major.
The same approach can be extended to V7/V and V7/IV.
The same type of thing *can* happen in minor keys but tends not to.
I.e. It is rare to use G Mix sounds on G7 as V7 in C minor.
Ditto for V7/IIm, V7/IIIm and V7/VIm.
Hope that's not too confusing and is helpful.
--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
<http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/AudioClips/audio.htm>
joegold AT primus DOT ca
Joey Goldstein
BTW
The 2nd chord of Stella is usually written as A7. The 4th chord is F7.
The primary key of this tune is Bb major and the opening progression is
Em7b5 |A7 |Cm7 |F7 |Fm7 |Bb7 |Eb |Ab7 |Bb .....
Em7b5 A7 forms a II-V progression in the key of D minor.
Dm is the IIIm chord in Bb major, so this progression is usually
analyzed as \IIm7b5_V7/IIIm. The fact that the next chord is not
actually IIIm (Dm) makes this a deceptive cadence, but the A7 still has
D function in the secondary key of D minor.
In the key of Bb major, F7 will *always* have D function, unless it is
part of a snippet, of some sort, from a secondary key.
The fact that the chord immediately following F7 here is not Bb does not
change this. The progression does in fact proceed to a chord that does
have Bb as its root (Bb7) and has a major 3rd.
The Bb7 is analyzed as V7/IV. The preceding Fm7 is therefore analyzed as
Bb7's related IIm7, \IIm7_V7/IV ("2-5-of-4").
Eb is just the IV chord.
So, the only non-dominant-function dom7 chord here is Ab7, bVI7.
Here's the typical analysis of this progression...
Bb:
SD D SD D SD D SD SDM T
\IIm7___V7/IIIm \IIm7_V7/ \IIm7_V7/IV IV bVI7 I
Em7b5 |A7 |Cm7 |F7 |Fm7 |Bb7 |Eb |Ab7 |Bb
Now, the 1st time through this progression the key of bb major is not
really confirmed until we arrive at the 1st Bb chord. so the 1st time
through this tune is fraught with all sorts of ambiguities. But after
the first few bars the key is pretty firmly entrenched in the ear.
[Note: The original chord for the 1st and 2nd bars of this tune was
Dbdim7, bIIIdim7 - an approach chord to IIm7.
bIIIdim7 is closely related to V7b9/V (C7b9).]
Guy Snape
> Hope that's not too confusing and is helpful.
Very helpful, thanks Joey, your effort is appreciated.
- guy
jessele...@comcast.net
Tim:
With out a doubt - that is the funniest post ever posted!
Jess
Derek
Thanks for the analysis.
Joey Goldstein
> Damn Joey. That looks like a good start on a Master's Thesis.
>
> Thanks for the analysis.
I'll have to get my bachelor's first.
Gerry
> Derek wrote:
>> Damn Joey. That looks like a good start on a Master's Thesis.
>>
>> Thanks for the analysis.
>
> I'll have to get my bachelor's first.
If you wanted one, you could likely get that with some kind of
placement test and a note from the professors at the university you
work at.
--
Dogmatism kills jazz. Iconoclasm kills rock. Rock dulls scissors.
Paul K
> Derek wrote:
>> Damn Joey. That looks like a good start on a Master's Thesis.
>>
>> Thanks for the analysis.
>
> I'll have to get my bachelor's first.
>
Nah, just convince RMMGJ university administrators to award you an honorary
doctorate. you dont need no stinkin Bachelor's.
--
Paul K
http://www.youtube.com/TopologyPaul
http://www.soundclick.com/paulkirk
http://php.indiana.edu/~pkirk/
Joey Goldstein
> On 2009-06-03 09:09:33 -0700, Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> said:
>
>> Derek wrote:
>>> Damn Joey. That looks like a good start on a Master's Thesis.
>>>
>>> Thanks for the analysis.
>>
>> I'll have to get my bachelor's first.
>
> If you wanted one, you could likely get that with some kind of placement
> test and a note from the professors at the university you work at.
Well, I might be looking into various ways to get my Bachelor's degree
over the next little while. I've been thinking about this again for some
reason.
When I was at Berklee I was in their Diploma Program (which I dropped
out of after 7 semesters) as opposed to the Degree Program so I never
took any of the academic subjects.
So, for me to get a BMus degree now I'd have to take quite a few
academic subjects, which I'm still not looking forward to.
Plus, my transcripts of my marks at Berklee are pitiful. C's and B's.
Too much pot, not enough ear training, I guess.