Guitarists in the role of soloing without another harmony instrument
ray...@yahoo.com
I'm looking for some recordings of guitarists in the role of soloing
without another harmony instrument (I play w/ drums, voice and bass).
Does Wes have some good examples of that or is the piano always
there? Also any strategies for soloing would be interesting to
discuss. Pass and NHOP seems like a good place to look- Pass uses
lots of chords alternating with a really active single note thing. I
notice that it is easy to allow too much space and it gets boring if I
do so. Any ideas? thanks
Rob
pmfan57
The "Poll Winners" albums with Shelly Manne, Barney Kessell and Ray
Brown are a good place to start for this format. There are 5 and all
are worth having.
pmfan57
Here's Barney with Don Thompson on bass and Terry Clarke on drums.
pmfan57
Another one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xJzcabD-XA
Mark Guest
Kenny Burrell, uh... any guitar trio... the list goes on
All the best,
Mark Guest
Jazz Guitar
www.myspace.com/markguest
Music produces a kind of pleasure which human nature cannot do
without."
Confucius (c.551-479 BC)
On May 7, 2:00 pm, rayf...@yahoo.com wrote:
Kevin Van Sant
message
<4877e2f7-5aca-473f...@u12g2000prd.googlegroups.com> :
Well, more often as it happens, it can get boring because there isn't
enough space.
There are a ton of recordings of guitar trios or
guitar/horn/bass/drums quartets. Hall/Desmond quartets will give you
years of material to work on. I love Peter Bernstein in this role or
setting. Jesse Davis' "the setup" or Jay Leonhart's "Group 15 plays
Monk" or Lee Konitz's "Parallels" are all great. (I'm not just
throwing that word around either). I really like Jesse van Ruller's
concepts in this setting too. ...and Kreisberg. But just listen to
the Keith Jarrett trio or Bill Evans to listen for "strategies". It
rarely gets any better than that.
_________________________________________
Kevin Van Sant
http://www.kevinvansant.com
CDs, videos, mp3s, gigs, pics, lessons, info.
Joe Finn
news:4877e2f7-5aca-473f...@u12g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
I'd recommend any of Jimmy Bruno's trio work. Steve Herberman and Fred Fried
are wonderful trio players too. Jim Hall recorded various trios and duos
that are classics.
Part of what makes this configuration work is playing the form really strong
and hitting chord tones. Playing solo gigs is good practice for duo and trio
work. As a soloist you have to make a strong and convincing thematic
statement and then develop it. With bass and drums it's similar but you just
leave a little more space. ......joe
--
Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net
Another Cleveland Guy
I always liked Bruce Forman's approach to trio playing. Check out his
Still of the Night CD if you can still get it.
335p...@gmail.com
Jim Hall
the recordings with Paul Desmond are essential. Get 'em.
Jim Hall - Live
Jim Hall with Ron Carter - Alone Together
Sonny Rollins The Bridge - with Jim Hall
Wes Montgomery Trio w/ Mel Rhyne
Joey Goldstein
Most of the records that Ed Bickert is on fit that description.
Especially with Paul Desmond of Fraser Macpherson or Rob McConnell (no
Boss Brass).
Many of Jim Hall's records as well. Especially with Sonny Rollins and
Art Farmer.
--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
<http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/AudioClips/audio.htm>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
tomb...@jhu.edu
I only know of several tracks that Wes recorded without another
chordal instrument. First is that Nat Adderley album from the 50s,
which has one or two tracks with tpt/gtr/bass. Then I think one of
his albums with his brothers has a standard guitar trio cut, but I
can't recall which cut it is.
rpjazz...@gmail.com
Their album, Glad to Be Unhappy, sold me on jazz guitar. I've been
listening to it for more than 40 years.
The best part is Jim Hall's comping.
My only comment about guitar trio is to choose your bassist wisely. I
also play in a guitar, voice, bass and drums trio (bassist sings).
We've worked some with the bass playing chords (roots thirds and
sevenths, usually) and, that can often sound pretty good. Check out
Nosso Trio on youtube for an example.
In fact, that's an answer to your question. Search youtube for Nelson
Faria and check out the Nosso Trio videos.
Jon Fox
Rob -
One of my favorites is Joe Pass' "Intercontinental" (g/b/d trio). You may
want to check that out.
--
*************************************
Jon Fox
Instructor of Commercial Music
McLennan Community College
www.jonfoxjazz.com
Jon Fox
news:fvst4b$i9u$1...@news.datemas.de...
Playing solo gigs is good practice for duo and trio
> work. As a soloist you have to make a strong and convincing thematic
> statement and then develop it. With bass and drums it's similar but you
> just leave a little more space. ......joe
>
> --
> Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net
>
I actually find it rather difficult going back and forth between solo gigs
and gigs with a bass but no other comping instrument. If I am not careful
and if I'm still in 'solo mode', I end up stepping on the bassist in a trio.
I play VERY differently in a trio than when solo.
charles robinson
The two basic ways that most guys use is in that situation is to comp for
themselves or have chord melody passages flow through their lines. Some
use combinations of both. Grant Green though, on his Blue Note recordings
called "Standards", plays single string solos throughout with the only a few
chords being played on the endings of some tunes. He manages to get that
open sound to work to his advantage on those.
Charlie
charles robinson
chopping up sentences up on here.) Those Grant things are still worth
checking ----
Charlie
"charles robinson" <robins...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:-YednZDXCbHtmL7V...@comcast.com...
>
> <ray...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:4877e2f7-5aca-473f...@u12g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>> Howdy all,
>> I'm looking for some recordings of guitarists in the role of soloing
>> without another harmony instrument (I play w/ drums, voice and bass).
>> Does Wes have some good examples of that or is the piano always
>> there? Also any strategies for soloing would be interesting to
>> discuss. Pass and NHOP seems like a good place to look- Pass uses
>> lots of chords alternating with a really active single note thing. I
>> notice that it is easy to allow too much space and it gets boring if I
>> do so. Any ideas? thanks
>> Rob
>
> The two basic ways that most guys use to comp for themselves or have
Joe Finn
"Jon Fox" <jf...@mclennan.edu> wrote
>
> I actually find it rather difficult going back and forth between solo gigs
> and gigs with a bass but no other comping instrument. If I am not careful
> and if I'm still in 'solo mode', I end up stepping on the bassist in a
> trio. I play VERY differently in a trio than when solo.
That's interesting. One of the things about a solo gig is that you tend to
take liberties with the tempo, meter, key signatures, arrangements, etc.,
that you just can't do in an ensemble setting. As a soloist you can be
really free with the music and you can take it to places where bassists and
drummers fear to tread. It's true that if you did the same thing with a
bassist it wouldn't work too well.
What I was pointing out was that playing solo gigs is good practice for duo
and trio
work because of the command of the material the soloist must have. Playing a
regular solo gig will give the player a very confident and comfortable
working knowledge of his repertoire. Gene Bertoncini's advice was that a
student ought to get a little weekly solo gig where they pay you $20 and a
sandwich in order to work up a real confident command over his material.
Taking these abilities into the duo/trio configuration is what I was
referring to. It's a very beneficial thing. .....joe
Another Cleveland Guy
> Many of Jim Hall's records as well. Especially with Sonny Rollins and
> Art Farmer.
Several people have mentioned Jim Hall. The thing with Jim Hall is
that his approach -- especially his approach to comping -- is so
singularly unique that I'm not sure you can get a lot out of trying to
"lift" his stuff.
Don't get me wrong, I love his playing. For me, he can do no wrong.
But his approach to comping isn't exactly something you can grab onto
and use. Or at least I haven't found it to be so. It's probably
instructive, and certainly inspiring, to give him a listen. But I
can't think of anybody whose comping is strongly reminiscent of Jim
Hall. There are a bunch of players who sound kinda like Wes or Pass or
any number of other players, but Jim Hall goes his own way, and I
haven't heard anybody really latch on to that approach.
He's one of a kind.
Jonathan
Joe Finn
>Several people have mentioned Jim Hall. The thing with Jim Hall is
>that his approach -- especially his approach to comping -- is so
>singularly unique that I'm not sure you can get a lot out of trying to
>"lift" his stuff.
>Don't get me wrong, I love his playing. For me, he can do no wrong.
>But his approach to comping isn't exactly something you can grab onto
>and use. Or at least I haven't found it to be so. It's probably
>instructive, and certainly inspiring, to give him a listen. But I
>can't think of anybody whose comping is strongly reminiscent of Jim
>Hall. There are a bunch of players who sound kinda like Wes or Pass or
>any number of other players, but Jim Hall goes his own way, and I
>haven't heard anybody really latch on to that approach.
>He's one of a kind.
>Jonathan
We both obviously love Jim Hall's playing. He's a true original. Don't be
too quick to conclude that you can't learn from his recordings though. The
duo with Red mitchell is a real favorite of mine comping wise.
I'm hosting the Jim Hall page that was created by Willie Yee. It has a lot
of general information and some Michael Pettersen transcriptions of Hall's
playing.
http://www.joefinn.net/html/jim_hall_page.html
Enjoy! .........................joe
tonyde...@gmail.com
Hall and Pass as bookends. Completely different styles, yet a good
recorded history accessible to your needs.
-TD
Another Cleveland Guy
>
> We both obviously love Jim Hall's playing. He's a true original. Don't be
> too quick to conclude that you can't learn from his recordings though. The
> duo with Red mitchell is a real favorite of mine comping wise.
>
I haven't got that one; I'll have to check it out.
rpjazz...@gmail.com
genius at creating spare comping lines -- outlining the harmony in a
very sophisticated way, leaving lots of space and creating beautiful
textures, all without unreachable chops.
It's peripheral to the OP, but I think it's worth listening to Ralph
Sharon behind Tony Bennett. He does countermelody in ways which really
work and I don't often hear on guitar.
Max Smith
Joe Finn wrote:
> Gene Bertoncini's advice was that a
> student ought to get a little weekly solo gig where they pay you $20 and a
> sandwich in order to work up a real confident command over his material.
Sure, the only problem these days is finding a place to play solo guitar
where you can get paid $20 OR a sandwich, much less both.
The Other Max
ray...@yahoo.com
Sweet, thanks Tony. Can't lose with those guys, eh?
Rob
Jon Fox
Joe -
Don't get me wrong, I agree that performing solo can help a player gain an
overall command of the instrument and repertoire. I just wanted to point
out that I, at least, have to be careful not to make that jump from solo to
combo playing without respect for the different environment. It has been a
big adjustment for me in the past, and I wanted to let other folks know that
it is something to consider when comparing solo playing to trio (or whatever
size group) playing.
For me the concern isn't so much the arrangement issues you allude to above
(although those are obvious considerations, as well), but more about the
'orchestration', if you will; Which roles I fill as a solo performer, as
opposed to the role or roles I fill as a member of a group.
paulmitc...@gmail.com
I think Jim Hall has had a profound influence. Scofield, Metheny,
Abercrombie and Goodrick have all acknowledged the pivotal role that
Hall's playing on recordings such as 'The Bridge' and 'Undercurrent'
had in their own development. It was exactly Hall's approach rather
than the surface mannerisms of his music that most attracted Sco and
company.
Elektrik Hendrik
> Howdy all,
> I'm looking for some recordings of guitarists in the role of soloing
> without another harmony instrument (I play w/ drums, voice and bass).
> Does Wes have some good examples of that or is the piano always
> there? Also any strategies for soloing would be interesting to
> discuss. Pass and NHOP seems like a good place to look- Pass uses
> lots of chords alternating with a really active single note thing. I
> notice that it is easy to allow too much space and it gets boring if I
> do so. Any ideas? thanks
> Rob
-Portrait of Wes
-Standards- Grant Green
-Midnight Blue- Kenny Burrrel
-Question and Answer
and all the Jim Hall and Barney Kessel stuff already mentioned.
Mark Guest
> Don't get me wrong, I agree that performing solo can help a player gain an
> overall command of the instrument and repertoire. I just wanted to point
> out that I, at least, have to be careful not to make that jump from solo to
> combo playing without respect for the different environment. It has been a
> big adjustment for me in the past, and I wanted to let other folks know that
> it is something to consider when comparing solo playing to trio (or whatever
> size group) playing.
>
> For me the concern isn't so much the arrangement issues you allude to above
> (although those are obvious considerations, as well), but more about the
> 'orchestration', if you will; Which roles I fill as a solo performer, as
> opposed to the role or roles I fill as a member of a group.
Using solo approaches when in duo/trio situations works fine for me.
I'll often set up a tune solo, using tempo variations, more extreme
phrasing, then when the bass joins in we have a pretty well-defined
starting point. Using the "right" bassist helps. But yes, I do
remember that I'm playing with others and try to stay out of the
bassist's way.
Your Name Here
I understood Jonathan's comments as referring to Hall's comping, not his
overall influence (and in particular is soloing). I have to agree that I
haven't heard many jazz guitarists who comp like Hall does. It goes beyond the
Freddy Green thing which most players do. I've never heard any comping by
Abercrombie, Scofield, or Goodrick that sounds anything like Hall's. Metheny
sometimes gets into a similar vibe, but he has his own thing which is more
"Americana" to my ears. I ocsionally try to emulate Hall's comping in duo
situations, but I can't come close to the fluency he has at it. I love when he
does the calypso-type comping.
Of course, those guys (metheny, abercrombie, scofield, goodrick, etc) are
strongly influenced by Hall's soloing (Abercrombie told me when I met him a
few weeks ago that his two main influences were Wes and Hall.)
Paul K
ray...@yahoo.com
> <rayf...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Joe,
Can you amplify a bit on "playing the form really strong". I not
clear on what you mean.....
Rob
Joe Finn
"Max Smith" <mls...@insightbb.com> wrote in
>
> Sure, the only problem these days is finding a place to play solo guitar
> where you can get paid $20 OR a sandwich, much less both.
>
> The Other Max
I think that's an overly pessimistic outlook. I'm pretty sure I could play
eight or nine times a week if I really wanted to. A small cafe and solo
guitar is a match made in heaven. It takes very little initiative to make
this happen. .......joe
Joe Finn
"Jon Fox" <jf...@mclennan.edu> wrote >
>
> Joe -
>
> Don't get me wrong, I agree that performing solo can help a player gain an
> overall command of the instrument and repertoire. I just wanted to point
> out that I, at least, have to be careful not to make that jump from solo
> to combo playing without respect for the different environment. It has
> been a big adjustment for me in the past, and I wanted to let other folks
> know that it is something to consider when comparing solo playing to trio
> (or whatever size group) playing.
That's a good point. There are certainly some very important differences to
consider. I see similarities as well. It's like one of my students famously
observed, "It's the same only different....".
> For me the concern isn't so much the arrangement issues you allude to
> above (although those are obvious considerations, as well), but more about
> the 'orchestration', if you will; Which roles I fill as a solo performer,
> as opposed to the role or roles I fill as a member of a group.
That's true too. When I play solo it's as if I'm playing a duet with the
silence. I know that sounds a little goofy but the room itself feels as if
it is my "silent partner". This is not so obvious with bass and drums.
.............................joe
Another Cleveland Guy
>
> I think Jim Hall has had a profound influence. Scofield, Metheny,
> Abercrombie and Goodrick have all acknowledged the pivotal role that
> Hall's playing on recordings such as 'The Bridge' and 'Undercurrent'
> had in their own development. It was exactly Hall's approach rather
> than the surface mannerisms of his music that most attracted Sco
> and company.
Oh, I certainly agree that Jim Hall has had a profound influence. But
the essence of his playing, especially his comping, is his unique
approach to thinking about music. Maybe that's what you mean by his
"approach rather than the surface mannerisms."
Lots of people are influenced by Jim Hall, but I can't think of
anybody who really sounds like him. That's my point. Jim Hall's stuff
is just not all that "liftable." His influence has been getting really
smart, thoughtful players to think a little differently about music,
not getting everybody to cop his licks.
Joe Finn
> Joe,
> Can you amplify a bit on "playing the form really strong". I not
> clear on what you mean.....
> Rob
I like to use different rhythm treatments to define the form. The A section,
bridge, interlude coda, etc. I also play in different registers to achieve
the same effect. In fact you can use an entire range of textures, harmonies,
etc. to reinforce the definition of the form.
On a typical song form you might play the first 16 with the fingers and an
alternating bass. For the B section you could go with a block chord approach
using downstrokes with the thumb. Good drummers do this all the time. The
way they vary the groove from one section to the next is what creates a kind
of tension and release that is consistent with the form. You'll also find
it's a good idea to create a little setting to introduce the next section in
the same way that a drummer might play a fill to bring in the bridge or the
top of the form, etc.
So the idea is to use some musicality to emphasize and humanize the
compositional form. If you play the same groove all the way through the form
you'll be doing what a drum machine does. .................joe
Kevin Van Sant
<user...@isp.net.invalid> wrote in message
<PM00044CC...@129-79-94-30.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu> :
>> I think Jim Hall has had a profound influence. Scofield, Metheny,
>> Abercrombie and Goodrick have all acknowledged the pivotal role that
>> Hall's playing on recordings such as 'The Bridge' and 'Undercurrent'
>> had in their own development. It was exactly Hall's approach rather
>> than the surface mannerisms of his music that most attracted Sco and
>> company.
>
>I understood Jonathan's comments as referring to Hall's comping, not his
>overall influence (and in particular is soloing). I have to agree that I
>haven't heard many jazz guitarists who comp like Hall does. It goes beyond the
>Freddy Green thing which most players do. I've never heard any comping by
>Abercrombie, Scofield, or Goodrick that sounds anything like Hall's. Metheny
>sometimes gets into a similar vibe, but he has his own thing which is more
>"Americana" to my ears. I ocsionally try to emulate Hall's comping in duo
>situations, but I can't come close to the fluency he has at it. I love when he
>does the calypso-type comping.
>
>Of course, those guys (metheny, abercrombie, scofield, goodrick, etc) are
>strongly influenced by Hall's soloing (Abercrombie told me when I met him a
>few weeks ago that his two main influences were Wes and Hall.)
I think Paul (the other Paul) was spot on. It seems obvious to me
that those guys mentioned as well as Peter Bernstein all have clear
debt to Jim Hall in their respective approaches to comping. As Paul
(the other one) says, it was his concept and approach rather than
surface mannerisms (good way to put it). It's all rooted strongly
in Hall's melodic approach to comping. No so much specific rhythmic
patterns or anything like that.
_________________________________________
Kevin Van Sant
http://www.kevinvansant.com
CDs, videos, mp3s, gigs, pics, lessons, info.
pmfan57
Some guys are so unique you can't really copy stuff without it being
obvious copying (Metheny comes to mind). But even for those players,
an approach can be gleaned from the playing.
It's clear to me that Goodrick, Metheny, Scofield, Frisell and
Abercrombie all in some sense fall into a "Jim Hall School." None of
them lift too much directly, but have been influenced by at least a
part of the Hall aesthetic.
Another Cleveland Guy
> It's clear to me that Goodrick, Metheny, Scofield, Frisell and
> Abercrombie all in some sense fall into a "Jim Hall School." None of
> them lift too much directly, but have been influenced by at least a
> part of the Hall aesthetic.
Yep, Hall's definitely got lots of aesthetic influence floating around
out there.
Tim McNamara
couple of weeks ago, and would recommend considering learning a bit
about his type of approach. On his "Art of Solo Guitar" DVD he presents
some interesting things about using partial chords to harmonize any
melody note or any note in a solo. He focuses in particular on the
half-diminished chord (finding at least eight melody notes on any string
and voicings to go with them, although for the sake of hearing clearly
the melody note is usually on the B and high E strings), but of course
the same approach could be applied to any chord.
His demonstrations were fascinating, such as showing that the melody of
the first 16 bars of ATTYA is almost completely played on the 3rds of
the chords; he then played the chords while playing a new melody on the
5ths which maintained a sense of the melody while changing the emotional
tone. Any chord tone or extension can be harmonized this way, of
course, it was just interesting to hear a fluid direct comparison of
those sounds.
His facility with putting moving lines below or around the melody is
also amazing and part of what makes his music interesting and
compelling. For a soloist, mastering some of this would be very helpful
in making one's playing more interesting.
Of course, dagnabit, he fired up the yen I've have for a nylon string
guitar so I've bought one and am now bidding on another somewhat better
instrument. Aaaaarrrggghhh! Darn inspiring musicians, anyway! I
haven't had a classical guitar for 20 years, when I foolishly traded
mine for an amp. Ah, the folly of youth!
Max Smith
I'm sure you're right, Joe, but the downside is that after getting all
those gigs, I'd be stuck listening to some guy (me) playing solo jazz
guitar for 10-25 hours a week - I can think of a lot less distasteful
(and efficient) ways to earn $20 and a sandwich...
Besides, if I want to learn to play solo jazz guitar, I can do it at
home, and save myself the gas money, the wear and tear on my gear, the
indifference of customers, and the insensitivity of club/restaurant
owners - and play whatever tunes I like, as long as I feel like it and
wear pajamas if I want to.
The Other Max
RobSm
wrote:
Max...I think the point is that you can't do it home. You might
believe so but I take the othe view.
A bit of discipline & effort and the ever present fear of failure ( in
reasonable control) will do wonders.
Time in the spotlight (wherever it is) will be it's own reward. ...
...and some sandwiches are good...
Joe Finn
>
> ......I think the point is that you can't do it home. You might
> believe so but I take the othe view.
>
> A bit of discipline & effort and the ever present fear of failure ( in
> reasonable control) will do wonders.
That's what I was about to say. When you are playing in public your mind is
much more focused than it is at home. Even while performing informally in a
humble little cafe somewhere you'll bring more concentration to your effort
than you can at home.
My advice is to play somewhere where the food is great.
.............joe
Kevin Van Sant
in message <g0394h$q57$1...@news.datemas.de> :
>That's what I was about to say. When you are playing in public your mind is
>much more focused than it is at home. Even while performing informally in a
>humble little cafe somewhere you'll bring more concentration to your effort
>than you can at home.
Absolutely. you can work on a lot of things and make great progress
at home, but there is really no substitute for what performing can do
to bring it all together. Your playing will grow in leaps and bounds
if you can score a weekly solo gig.
Joe Finn
>
> Absolutely. you can work on a lot of things and make great progress
> at home, but there is really no substitute for what performing can do
> to bring it all together. Your playing will grow in leaps and bounds
> if you can score a weekly solo gig.
Yep.
I've said this here before. No matter how much I practice it is never as
beneficial as actual performance time. The woodshed does not have the
immediacy of the bandstand. ........joe
Claus Rogge
--
Latest record "Know Greed" at the iTunes store:
http://tinyurl.com/57ots3
at cdbaby:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/rogge
Max Smith
The Other Max
Chickenhead
and stinky gardening clogs while drinking buckets of coffee.
Still, I've had lonely miserable solo $50-and-a-sandwich gigs generate $300
to play solo for 2-3 hours corporate gigs. The trick is doing those little
gigs without giving the impression that you're always willing to do a gig
for $50 and a sandwich. And, truth be told, it's kind of hard to motivate
myself to sit down and play solo like that at home; I end up getting
distracted, or practicing something instead of just playing. There is a
certain discipline to having to actually play music that's tolerable to
listen to. Some of you may not need that, but if I'm not forced to play
listenable music, I'll often end up going off on tangents and end up
practicing something too specific to be musical. There's nothing like
having people listening.
"Max Smith" <mls...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:Z-SdnVpPTaauj7jV...@insightbb.com...
zepa....@gmail.com
Paul, I think the way how Bill Frisell comps has a lot do with Jim
Hall's.
ZP
paulmitc...@gmail.com
of Fame.
This got me thinking that Hall sounds nothing much like Freddie Green
(the quasi-acoustic comping on Undercurrent's 'My Funny Valentine'
notwithstanding) yet he has on many occasions remarked on his love for
Green's playing and less is more philosophy. Maybe there's an
alternate history of jazz guitar to be written that charts a straight
line between Freddie Green, Jim Hall and the 'Berklee brigade'.
The Other Paul