The market for handmade jazz guitars is dead

[mcle...@comcast.net]

I see this guitar on ebay and I know the builder, this should be a fantastic
guitar. Then I see I cannot seem to sell anything these days and it just
tells me that all the work in a handmade guitar is for
nothing...............no one cares.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2007-Apollo-archtop-guitar-hand-made-by-Ted-Megas-/231329067462?pt=Guitar&hash=item35dc4971c6

In my way of thinking this guitar above has been built and put together by a
real good builder and would be far above other offerings. Cannot even get a
bite a $5000.
Deacon Mark Cleary
Epiphany Roman Catholic Church

[Lord Valve]

Man, that's a *seriously* gorgeous guitar.

It looks to me like the F-holes aren't holes, but are
actually inlays. (I'll admit to not being able to see
all that well...) Is that right?

Never heard of this builder (but then, I'm an organist)
but he ought to be world-famous by now if that one's
representative of what he turns out. I'm going to send
that link to a rather famous buddy of mine who plays
rather well. ;-)

Lord Valve
Organist

[SB]

Yea, if the axe matters to you then it is worth the time and money to have the custom axe and keep it. I know a guy that invested in DAs, has them in glass cases. I saw one of his axes online in the EU for $2500 two months ago, no cutaway, very old DA . Sad. I have handmade guitars and I consider them worthless to anyone but to myself. You don't need a huge axe to sound good anymore; we invented electronics. The best sound I've ever heard is from my thin line axe. Sounds better than the expensive big axes I have. It is carved spruce, but the Armstrong humbuckers are giving it life and not the carved spruce top. Plus it was $2k cheaper than the others I have, plus it is much more comfortable to play. My M16 weighs a couple of pounds more than my modern thin line axe. It is almost as good as a tele for comfort. Joe Puma, I think, invented the thin line archtop with J. DAq. circa 1970. Keep the axe Mark.

[thomas]

I think those are f-hole plugs, to damp the feedback.

[ott...@hotmail.com]

Yeah, Ted Megas is one of the big boys in the Luthier department, I Believe.

I'm sure there are quite a few reasons for lack of sales of these items.

1) the Economy and especially lack of gigs.
2) The guys that play carved top archtops are retiring or close to it.
3) The new guys use effects to some extent, thinner or sold body guitars work better for that scenario.
4) Too much availability of $500 import archtops, (Ibanez etc) that can do a credible job, and you're not afraid to leave it on the bandstand.
5) Fear of airline travel with them?
I Would think though that there might still be a market in Europe and Asia for hand made guitars though??

Bg

[ott...@hotmail.com]

Oh Yeah, and fear of traveling with anything with Ebony or Ivory bits on it and having it confiscated.

[SB]

Bg, you are totally right on all accounts. However, I never have had trouble on airlines with my axe. Gilad Heckselman plays all over the world endlessly and just uses a gig bag and he fights to carry it on planes abroad. Otherwise he gate checks the axe. The modern archtop is like Kurt Rosenwinkel's DA, a light axe, thin line, ideal for travel. Almost as good as a solid body for travel. The new axes that people like Victor Baker make, and others, are smaller (14 inch), lighter, but still hollow and arched. Feedback is a huge issue with fat axes like my lam. Ed Cherry has to put duct tape on the top f-hole to avoid it. My thin line has no f-holes but it is hollow. Very modern design with no feedback. Puma's thin line had no f-holes either, he designed it with an oval hole under the PU. When I was a kid I went to Jimmy DAs shop in Huntington and thought it was a rock guitar. He also used a gig bag for the D'Aquisto. Imagine that !!! Puma was way ahead of his time. Good advice is to keep your axe. Worth way more to us than anyone will pay. I doubt anyone will steal it for the ebony. But they will crush it. TSA doesn't even look inside the case either. One time TSA asked me to play a tune for them. They couldn't care less. Too funny. Never sell an axe: we need all of them for old age.

[Tim McNamara]

Given the huge number (relatively) of luthiers making archtops there is
still a market, but at the $10,000 end of teh spectrum the market is
always going to be small. And a lot of luthiers seem to be shooting for
that range, rather than the $2,500-3,000 rage that is suitable for the
gigging musician. But maybe that's not ever really been the market for
top end archtops- sure, Johnny Smith played D'Angelicos but they cost
about what a Gibson cost in those days. That's why you saw them in
clubs.

So the $5,000 price tag is going to be a limiter for most potential
buyers. Ted Megas is not exactly a household name among guitarists,
unlike say Benedetto, even though he has a great reputation among those
who know. The headstock on that guitar is one of the most tasteful
shapes I have ever seen, the finish looks superb and the wood selection
is outtanding. I think that's what would likely attract a buyer rather
than his name- but not that many people have $5,000 laying around that
they can spare for a guitar.

And perhaps adding insult to injury is that the acoustic tone is no
longer even heard by most of the audience- they hear the pickup and the
amp, not the sound of wood and air that the luthier spent so many hours
crafting. Heck, on the bandstand I can't even hear the acoustic sound
of my archtop over the drums, horns and bass.

[SB]

Agreed. All of this is absolutely true. It used to piss me off until I spoke with Kurt, gHex, and few others on the subject. They are much more interested in having some archtop that can sing like the older ones, but few if any are interested in a big guitar these days. Some are even moving to ergo axes. It is all about sustain pedals and getting the sound they want with gear and having a light weight axe for travel and comfort. The market for 16 inch plus axes is drying up. For 3K you can get a handmade axe made to your specs from Victor Baker, and others. Mostly 14 inch models, and absolutely beautiful designs. So I could either grasp onto the past or move to the modern ideas. I did both. I can see both sides of it. So I got a laminate axe, a carved axe, and a carved thin line, all under $10K total. All have plus and minus attributes. I loved the lam so much that I beat up the pegs and nut and it needs repair. The lam sounds great. But as you said: no acoustic sound at all compared to the boost from the electronics. None of the modern players want L5s or 175s. They let go of the past and moved on. Like I said Puma was way ahead of his time. He got the same sound from a thin line in the 1970s, without the feedback issues.

[rpjazzguitar]

The idea of spending $5000 for a guitar that I've never played, based on a picture, and made by a luthier I've never heard of (not that my ignorance means much -- he may be great and may be widely known among archtop players) ... but, I can't imagine writing the check.

I can imagine paying a few thousand for a custom guitar and I can imagine paying serious money for certain instruments that I admire. An original New Yorker, a late 30's L5, a George Gobel L5, maybe a few others. Maybe a 50's P90 175.

To put this in context: I recorded a CD last year. I did half the tunes with the cheapest guitar I own, a Yamaha Pacifica 012. And, I like the sound I got. You can buy them most days on CL for $75. It's also the guitar I practice on daily. I couldn't get that sound from a humbucker guitar. Disclosure: I didn't solo on any of those tunes except for one where the arrangement called for fuzz. If I had to solo clean, I probably would have played a different guitar.

[fritz jones]

Builders like Megas still have pretty full waiting lists for orders.
Selling one second hand one is the difficulty.

[Steve Freides]

IMHO, this is one of those situations where the instrument is worth xxx
"to the right buyer." If you were interested in it, you are one of
those people, but this might have to be listed and relisted and
rerelisted for months on end before the right buyer who _is_ interested
happens to notice it.

Might be worth it for the builder to accept it on consignment, or for a
shop that specializes in boutique archtops to do the same. At least
that way, more of the right potential buyers would be looking at it.

Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.

-S-

[Jonathan Byrd]

On Thursday, September 25, 2014 6:45:17 PM UTC-7, thomas wrote:
>
> I think those are f-hole plugs, to damp the feedback.

It kind of looks like that on the first pic, or maybe the inside of the back is just appears white from the camera flash. You can see the notched wood (kerf?) through the f-hole on the pickguard closeup (fourth pic), and I suspect the last pic is looking through the f-hole at the serial number and date sticker on the inside of the back.

[thomas]

Good eye--I agree, it's just the flash lighting up the back wood. You can see the pickup cable going through the f-hole. That means it's not a plug.

[Tony Done]

>
> And perhaps adding insult to injury is that the acoustic tone is no
> longer even heard by most of the audience- they hear the pickup and the
> amp, not the sound of wood and air that the luthier spent so many hours
> crafting. Heck, on the bandstand I can't even hear the acoustic sound
> of my archtop over the drums, horns and bass.
>

A few months back I inquired in this group about the logic of spending
big $ on a carved top archtop, and then using skinny strings and a
covered humbucker pickup (ie acoustic tone killer) to capture the sound.
I didn't get a convincing answer, so I'm guessing that the attraction is
functional art plus the tone when played unamplified for the owner's
personal satisfaction. Though skinny strings makes me wonder about the
latter possibility.

That question could be the reason for their decline, though I think that
there will always be a solid, if small, niche market. Like lutes. :)

--
Tony Done

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=784456

http://www.flickr.com/photos/done_family/

[Gerry]

Is the CD commercially available?
--
Dogmatism kills jazz. Iconoclasm kills rock. Rock dulls scissors.

[Gerry]

Good analysis, Bobby.

[rpjazzguitar]

I used to go fishing a Honda Accord. I caught my share of fish.

But, I became uncomfortable in the motel parking lot where everybody else had trucks and SUVs. So I got a Ford Explorer and I felt better. I didn't catch any more fish.

For some reason, I don't play an archtop. You'd think I would.

[Tim McNamara]

On Thu, 25 Sep 2014 23:27:35 -0700 (PDT), SB <simon...@cox.net> wrote:

> For 3K you can get a handmade axe made to your specs from Victor
> Baker, and others. Mostly 14 inch models, and absolutely beautiful
> designs. So I could either grasp onto the past or move to the modern
> ideas. I did both. I can see both sides of it. So I got a laminate
> axe, a carved axe, and a carved thin line, all under $10K total. All
> have plus and minus attributes. I loved the lam so much that I beat up
> the pegs and nut and it needs repair. The lam sounds great. But as you
> said: no acoustic sound at all compared to the boost from the
> electronics. None of the modern players want L5s or 175s. They let go
> of the past and moved on.

Hmmm. Modern players like Pete Bernstein (Ziedler carvetop with
floater), Jonathan Kreisberg (ES-175), Julian Lage (Linda Manzer
carevetop), Gilad Hekselman (Gibson Howard Roberts, now I think a Victor
Baker), Anthony Wilson (Monteleone carvetop), Chico Pinheiro
(Benedetto), Bobby Broom (Hofner Jazzica), Russell Malone (Gibson Super
400 and other archtops), etc. I think there is more heterodoxy about
gear for jazz guitarists than there used to be and that it's a good
thing, but I think it's a stretch to say jazz guitarists have
universally "moved on" from archtop guitars. Some have- Rosenwinkel,
Monder, Stern, Scofield for example- although now I think of it those
guys are not the newest generation of jazz guitarists on the scene;
they've all been around a while. The new guys seem prone to playing
archtops...

[Tim McNamara]

On Fri, 26 Sep 2014 07:12:40 -0700 (PDT), fritz jones
<odo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Builders like Megas still have pretty full waiting lists for orders.
> Selling one second hand one is the difficulty.

Selling a custom anything used is a problem. The people in that market
want something custom made for themselves...

[2cts]

LOL, funny, they could go for like a special hehe ;=)

Be sure it will keep be gone on

+

[Tim McNamara]

On Sat, 27 Sep 2014 10:08:26 +1000, Tony Done <tony...@bigpond.com>
wrote:

>
> A few months back I inquired in this group about the logic of
> spending big $ on a carved top archtop, and then using skinny strings
> and a covered humbucker pickup (ie acoustic tone killer) to capture
> the sound. I didn't get a convincing answer, so I'm guessing that the
> attraction is functional art plus the tone when played unamplified for
> the owner's personal satisfaction. Though skinny strings makes me
> wonder about the latter possibility.
>
> That question could be the reason for their decline, though I think that
> there will always be a solid, if small, niche market. Like lutes. :)

Well, I have a carvetop with a floater made by a guy in Great Falls MT
named Matt Cushman. I have no idea how many he's made and I suspect
mine is one of his early ventures. The finish and details are not as
perfect as his more recent instruments appear to be. The acoustic sound
is great and it satisfies the voluptuous aesthetic of the archtop guitar
very well. I like it a lot and of all my guitars it is my wife's
favorite. The reasons for owning it are not so much practical as
artistic- such an instrument puts me in a particular frame of mind and
makes for a very satisfying playing experience.

That said, on playbacks of gigs I think I tend to actually play better
on my Tele and I notice I get more positives from the rest of the band
when I play that rather than the archtop. I get more positives from the
audience with the archtop than with the Tele. I have no idea what that
means.

[Tony Done]

I think your motives are as I suggested - functional art that gives you
personal satisfaction. I also understand the audience thing - they
listen with their eyes as well as their ears. I play mostly acoustic
blues, and when I was gigging I used to play a 1934 Gibson L-00 and a
1932 National style O. I reckon that those of the audience who
recognised the instruments likely had a higher opinion of my playing as
a result. "He must be good, he plays a ********". :)

[SB]

Gilad Hex plays a 14 inch VB and has the f-hole stuffed with a midi synth and dumped the Howard Roberts axe years ago. Seems most play 16 inch.. very few are playing 17 or 18 inch guitars, and even fewer rely on the acoustic sound of the big archtops. Even the less expansive Benedettos are thinner and smaller. His new line is mostly thin line axes bambino and benny, 14 inch. The vast majority of Victor Baker's sales are for 14 inch guitars, selling a 16 once in a while. The Jimmy Bruno Sadowsky is 14 3/4 inches, and 2 inches thick (much smaller than the old fat axes). The trend is more electronics, less expensive, and easier to travel, smaller axes. They are all arctops, just modernized is all.

[van]

they go for $7500 new, so $5,000 for a used one is still pretty high.

[Lord Valve]

I'll wager Stradivarius violins didn't sell for three million bucks
back when Antonio was crankin' em out. ;-)

Lord Valve
Organist

[mcle...@comcast.net]

This is sort of funny and only Jimmy D'aquisto really had to deal with it.
His guitars would actually were being sold used when he was alive for more
cash because a person could get one right away. I know Ted is a fine builder
and sure loved his Blue Guitar the one I had time to spend a bit with, and
frankly I find the buy it now a better option than paying more to get it
right from Ted. If he gets $7500 for them now and I wanted one I rather pay
$5000 as long as the guitar was what I liked. Having one build sometimes the
expectations are less than anticipated. If you play one that is for sale and
it is your liking then get it because you already know the guitar.

As far as archtops and custom guitars it is true.............it is not the
guitar, it is the player. I guess I just have been around carved tops too
long and they are still my first love, give me one over anything build-in.

Deacon Mark Cleary
Epiphany Roman Catholic Church

"van" wrote in message
news:d256b22a-a20b-456f...@googlegroups.com...

[rpjazzguitar]

I've heard one of the young guys on that list quite a bit, with different guitars.

I know he loves the fancy archtop and sounds great with it. But, he sounded as good with several other guitars.

[SB]

On Saturday, September 27, 2014 12:35:42 PM UTC-7, rpjazzguitar wrote:
> I've heard one of the young guys on that list quite a bit, with different guitars.
>
>
>
> I know he loves the fancy archtop and sounds great with it. But, he sounded as good with several other guitars.

Mark is right. Used archtops are not worth much. New archtops are selling pretty well however. Keep your guitars !!!