Would be a waste to pick an easy song that stays in one key or doesn't
do things that are hard to figure out. What is a song that will be
really challenging to understand the chords, keys, etc etc?
Thanks,
Jim
Giant Steps (Coltrane)
Falling Grace (Swallow)
All the Things You Are (Kern)
Infant Eyes (Shorter)
Blue in Green (Miles/Bill Evans)
Try "Bluesette" on for size.
Once it "clicks" for you, you'll enjoy the hell out of it.
I certainly do. ;-)
Lord Valve
Organist
> My teacher told me to pick a song from the real book, because we are
> going to go through it together to figure out the changes and how to
> play it (and play over it).
>
> Would be a waste to pick an easy song that stays in one key or
> doesn't do things that are hard to figure out.
This depends on where you are in your jazz development. If you can blow
over "All The Things You Are," "Four," "Stella By Starlight," etc. and
not get lost or play wrong notes then you are ready to move ahead. If
not, then don't.
Don't underestimate the learning potential of a "simple" tune like "All
Blues." You can learn almost everything you need to know about playing
jazz from a tune like that: how to solo using chord tones, major
pentatonic, minor pentatonic including the blues scale, "cross keys"
(e.g., using the F,Eb or Bb major with the G blues), dominant scales,
tonal centers, substitutions, outside and inside playing, etc. That's
not even touching the rhythmical possibilities which are as or more
important but harder to write in prose. You could very profitably spend
a year at the graduate studies level on "All Blues" all by itself and
come out at the end prepared for a lot of what you will deal with in
playing jazz music.
> What is a song that will be really challenging to understand the
> chords, keys, etc etc?
"Speak No Evil," "Joy Spring" and "Jaco" spring to mind immediately. Or
of course "Giant Steps" if you want to be really macho.
--
Just a box of rain, I don't know who put it there
Believe it if you need it or leave it if you dare
I don't know what level you're at, but maybe something like All Blues
would cover some Modes and playing in 3/4, but still have time to
think of the changes because they don't go by too quickly?
Bg
In reviewing some of the other suggestions, and based on my admittedly
limited experience, here are my impressions of them-
I personally, believe it or not, find All Blues too difficult to do justice
to, despite that it looks to be so easy from the lead sheet. It's true that
there's a lot to learn from it, but I think perhaps too much for the
beginner, and it is all in one key, so not quite meeting your criteria. When
we play it, it sounds too much like a standard 12-bar blues. Making this
sound as Davis intended it is harder than it seems. Tim is understating it
when he tells you not to underestimate this tune. He's forgotten how good he
is... ;-)
Giant Steps: very hard for a beginner because it has far too many fast
moving key changes. If you really want to be challenged, be my guest, but I
think you'd like to feel some success a little earlier on than this will
allow. Of course, you could tackle it at 1/4 speed... :-) I think a better
suggestion would have been Coltrane's Central Park West, which has a similar
structure but is played at a slower tempo (I think?).
Bluesette- perhaps a very good suggestion, but has many, many key changes
and a difficult melody to navigate. It's not a tune many of us grew up
knowing and that just makes it more difficult to learn.
My opinion- start with ATTYA, learn a lot, and keep your ego intact too...
Hey, just one beginner to another... take my suggestions as you will. Good
luck.
I also think ATTYA is a good one. You have a few devices in that tune
such as II,V,I's in a couple of keys, Major to Minor, turnaround to II
on the first Gmaj7, chords scale on the Cmaj7 chord and diminished
throughout the song. You can spend a lot of time learning these
concepts. That's what I've been doing with Jimmy Bruno.
Stan
Aw, shucks <blush>. (Actually not all that good...)
> Giant Steps: very hard for a beginner because it has far too many
> fast moving key changes. If you really want to be challenged, be my
> guest, but I think you'd like to feel some success a little earlier
> on than this will allow. Of course, you could tackle it at 1/4
> speed... :-) I think a better suggestion would have been Coltrane's
> Central Park West, which has a similar structure but is played at a
> slower tempo (I think?).
>
> Bluesette- perhaps a very good suggestion, but has many, many key
> changes and a difficult melody to navigate. It's not a tune many of
> us grew up knowing and that just makes it more difficult to learn.
>
> My opinion- start with ATTYA, learn a lot, and keep your ego intact
> too... Hey, just one beginner to another... take my suggestions as
> you will. Good luck.
There is a reason that ATTYA is one of the songs most often found in
professional jazz musicians' repertoires.
It's not in mine.
It's one of those tunes that just didn't sit right in my head.
(OK, some could well argue that my head isn't right to
begin with, and that's certainly a defensible position. ;-)
I can't stand Stephane Grappelli, either...sue me. In fact,
I don't care for the violin in Jazz much at all, for some reason,
although I did dig some of the electric stuff done by
Jean Luc Ponty and the cat from Seatrain - Richard
Greene, I think. No problem with the instrument in the
bluegrass or classical genres, though. <shrug>
Anyway, Bluesette...has a bit of everything - circle
of fifths chord motion, some II-V-I, plenty of scale-wise
melody lines, and (important, I'd say, from the standpoint
of learning to improvise) no blue notes at all in the
melody. It's in 3/4, too, which swings nice and hard,
although there is a version or two out there in 4.
(Here's one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcKkNZc4goU )
I came to this tune via Jimmy Smith, an Oliver Nelson
arrangement, as I recall. It just locked right into my head,
all nice and logical-like. Smith does it in F. I learned
it (out of memory of having heard it twice) in G
for some reason, and that's the key i still do it in,
40-odd years later. And Toots wrote it in Bb. ;-)
Lord Valve
Organist
... >I can't stand Stephane Grappelli, either...sue me. In fact,
>I don't care for the violin in Jazz much at all, for some reason,
>although I did dig some of the electric stuff done by
>Jean Luc Ponty and the cat from Seatrain - Richard
>Greene, I think. No problem with the instrument in the
>bluegrass or classical genres, though. <shrug>
>
Surely you've heard of Joe Venuti? Here he is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4V_OwyeatOw
Fred
Sure, I heard of Venuti.
He's a gas to watch; I have the same complaint
about him as I do about most jazz violinists: the
TONE. I just can't stomach that whiny/scrapy/wheezy
screechy stuff. Electric violin - the solid or hollow
kind, with magnetic and piezo pickups, is
much more tolerable. And I like cats who don't
slither their pitch all over the place, too. It's
not that I think Grappelli and Venuti (and that
chick who's popular right now, whatsername)
are bad musicians or suck or anything, it's
just that jazz violin gives me a headache. ;-)
And bein' an organist (and having been a
trombonist and an upright bassist) I have
some pretty high standards as far as pitch
goes - which is why, I guess, I never spent
much time listening to slide guitarists (even
the vaunted Duane Allman, who - for my
money - didn't play in tune all that well)
until Derek Trucks hit the scene. Dude
never misses. (Check out some of his
work on Trane's tunes...spooky good.)
Here's a "tolerable" violin tune...for me,
anyway: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKkMvBvyqvE
And here's another...not jazz, but so what:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eFi4p_m3K4
Check Greene's ride starting at 1:43 - really
skillful wah-wah work, you don't hear a lot of
that with violin. (From 1971!)
Lord Valve
Organist
Girl From Ipanema. The bridge is in three keys.
The Song Is You. Not complicated in the A section, but it moves
around in the bridge.
Desafinado moves around a good bit. And, it's good to work on the
syncopated melody.
But, I agree with Tim. You can learn almost everything you need by
working on a simple tune.
Regina Carter?
Bg
Hi Jim,
I think almost any of the bossa nova hits will fit the bill - Ipanema,
Corcovado, How Insensitive, Wave, Desafinado, Triste, Once I loved.
They're great tunes and offer plenty of interesting harmony to play
over, plus they tend to lay really nicely on guitar for chord melody
arrangements.
Clay Moore
My own favorite jazz violinist is Michel Urbaniak. (Probably playing
in the jazz violin "tradition", but I couldn't begin to trace lines
from earlier guys. But I do hear an Eastern European influence in
there someplace—rather than the French lilt of Grapelli.) And I do
hear what you're saying about the tone and the pitch, but I happen to
actually enjoy that as an expressive quality in the violin, esp. the
electric violin (as I do Derek Trucks, Sonny Landreth on slide). Heck,
way back in the day, this one LP actually had me thinking about
learning to play violin. (Note: Urbaniak himself started out as a jazz
sax player with a few albums to his credit before revealing the violin
side of his music, and, AFAIK, he's never looked back.)
My favorite Urbaniak album, by far, is (currently) called "Jazz
Legends". It's actually a relatively recent CD reissue of 1970s LP
(date approx.) originally called "Jazz From The Big Apple" or
something very much like it. With legendary jazz rhythm section
featuring jazz greats like Ted Dunbar, Kenny Barron, Buster Williams,
and Roy Haynes. Composers are Horace Silver, Wayne Shorter, along with
a few Urbaniak tunes (very much melding with the other "standards").
It swings with a sweet, dark tone and an "up" kind of energy.
Definitely one of my favorite jazz albums ever. You might want to
check out some clips at Amazon's .mp3 page for this album:
http://www.amazon.com/Jazz-Legends/dp/B00127HYIG/ref=mb_oe_o
Larry
Cool to hear his name again. One of the LP's I wore out in the 70's was
a fusion type album he did with his vocalist wife Urzula Dudziak - it
may have been called "fusion" for all I know. It was ear opening.
Another violinist, known more for guitar work, is Elec Bacsik. His
album that impressed me was also from the 70's or 80's and consisted of
Parker and Gillespie tunes. "Bird and Dizzy" may have been the title.
It was just killer, or so it seemed at the time, and once again I wore
it out.
I'd love to have them both again...
--
Travis
Yup. It's called "Fusion" and it's from 1974. I actually have that
one, too, and definitely remember liking it. Comparatively speaking,
though, I'm honestly not too familiar with it in the middle of my
rather sizable collection from over the years. I'll definitely be
bringing it up now on your high recommendation, so thanks!
And it might interest you to know that it's available at Amazon. (No,
I don't work for them!) Here's the link I found while looking for
that other album I was talking about earlier:
Michael Urbaniak Fusion:
http://www.amazon.com/Fusion-Michal-Urbaniak/dp/B0013AYUOI/ref=sr_1_2_digr?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1309658747&sr=1-2
So it's still available on CD or download. Hope this helps scratch
that itch!
(BTW, that Urbaniak album I mentioned earlier is actually titled
"Music for Violin & Jazz Quartet : N.Y.5 ". Again, *most* highly
recommended. As a plus, Ted Dunbar has some really nice, swinging
solos on this album, too.)
Larry
> My own favorite jazz violinist is Michel Urbaniak. (Probably playing
> in the jazz violin "tradition", but I couldn't begin to trace lines
> from earlier guys. But I do hear an Eastern European influence in
> there someplace�rather than the French lilt of Grapelli.) And I do
> hear what you're saying about the tone and the pitch, but I happen to
> actually enjoy that as an expressive quality in the violin,
Me too, me too. I like the way it was used in early string bands and jug
bands, even though some of the playing was really miserable.
esp. the
> electric violin (as I do Derek Trucks, Sonny Landreth on slide). Heck,
> way back in the day, this one LP actually had me thinking about
> learning to play violin. (Note: Urbaniak himself started out as a jazz
> sax player with a few albums to his credit before revealing the violin
> side of his music, and, AFAIK, he's never looked back.)
>
> My favorite Urbaniak album, by far, is (currently) called "Jazz
> Legends". It's actually a relatively recent CD reissue of 1970s LP
> (date approx.) originally called "Jazz From The Big Apple" or
> something very much like it. With legendary jazz rhythm section
> featuring jazz greats like Ted Dunbar, Kenny Barron, Buster Williams,
> and Roy Haynes. Composers are Horace Silver, Wayne Shorter, along with
> a few Urbaniak tunes (very much melding with the other "standards").
> It swings with a sweet, dark tone and an "up" kind of energy.
In 1978 I had a few sessions in the same rehearsal studio as Michael
Urbaniak and Ursula Dudziak. He was a very down to earth and friendly
guy. Arto Lindsay was rehearsing a band in that studio too, FWIW.
Most tunes in the real book stay in one "key." How many key signature
changes are you confronted with? Take the tunes others mentioned here
( that reveal cyclic movement) plus other tunes like My Romance,
Autumn in NY, End of a Love Affair ad infinitum and take them through
several *modulations*. The learning is in the transposing and
negotiating the changes respectively, concerning improvisation. There
are no difficult keys, only ones that you tend to shy away from,
because you might *assume* they are difficult. You can achieve great
results with the Blues, and I Got Rythmn alone. In the end result, you
may continue to favor certain keys, but at least you can rest easy at
night.
-TD
> Most tunes in the real book stay in one "key." <snip>
>
> -TD
Okay, I'll bite. Why do you say that?
--
Travis
> In article <9784b2ec-9049-4293-9fb7-6da09aa4da99
> @g2g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>, tonyde...@gmail.com says...
> > snip
>
> > Most tunes in the real book stay in one "key." <snip>
> >
> > -TD
>
> Okay, I'll bite. Why do you say that?
I think he means the majority of the tunes have tails in the same key as
the heads.
If you're considering the overall key, internal
modulations don't count, really. Of course,
you could always shed any of those tunes
in multiple keys, like Parker (and others)
did back in the day. I'm doing a bit of that
myself these days; it's good for me, and I
often come up with different stuff while
soloing in the "new" key because of the
way the instrument is physically structured.
But I'm tellin' ya, the shift from C to C# on
a keyboard instrument is godawful, compared
to the guitar. And truth be told, if I'm on some
gig somewhere (it could happen... ;-) and I'm
called on to play something I know in one key
in another that's nasty (like C# or F#) I'm gonna
grab that cheat wheel and torque the output
up from whatever key I know it in to whatever
key they want it in. After all...you guys occasionally
use capos, no? ;-)
Lord Valve
Organist
> After all...you guys occasionally
> use capos, no? ;-)
>
> Lord Valve
> Organist
No. We're jazz guitarists and play everything in all 12 keys...on one
string...even chords.
--
Travis
Speakin' of cheat wheels, there was a feller around here that played
at a house party on the home owner's piano, that had a device that
moved the keyboard for transposing , an older upright piano it seems.
So leader calls a tune in a crappy key, he slides the keyboard to
compensate and all's well.
Problem is, the damn slide wouldn't go back down to the original
position, and piano dude had to transpose the rest of the night. :-)
Bg
> In article <4E10A921...@ix.netcom.com>, detr...@ix.netcom.com
> says...
>
> > After all...you guys occasionally
> > use capos, no? ;-)
> >
> > Lord Valve
> > Organist
>
> No. We're jazz guitarists and play everything in all 12 keys...on one
> string...even chords.
>
I only use my pinky finger. <bronx cheer> ;-)
LV
Ah, somebody famous used to compose/play everything in F#.
He also had one of those sliding-keyboard acoustic
pianos. He'd just slide it around until things sounded
right, and his pukes would write it out in whatever key
it ended up in. Irving Berlin! (Couldn't remember for
a minute there...gettin' old. ;-)
Lord Valve
Organist
I only refer to Capo di tutti capi. (same cheer)
-TD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5J0t-Fgn6AE
On Jul 2, 3:16 pm, Lord Valve <detri...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> "Scratchy tone"? You're listening to the stereo, not the music. This
> scratchy tone mf swings his balls off:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5J0t-Fgn6AE
Sure - plenty of energy there.
Whiny tone, and questionable intonation. And
don't hand me that "speed" excuse - if classical
cats can play Pagannini in tune, jazz cats have
no excuse.
Did it swing? Sure. Do I like it? Nope. Sue me. ;-)
Lord Valve
Organist
I know one tune that may or may not be right for you pedagogically, but
if you want a nightmare pick "You're Everything" by Chick Corea. You'll
find a leadsheet on one of the "New" Real Books.
I just came from a rehearsal for a gig tomorrow, which was supposedly "a
couple of standards, let's just get together to check some of the
arrangements" and now I have to solo one this tune, played at the speed
of light. While I'm listening to the original and trying to play over
the record I remembered this thread, so there you go.
Enjoy!
This might have been mentioned. I skipped ahead. If you are new to
playing over changes, pick a simple tune that stays in one key or
modulates ( moves to another key once). Jamey Abersold has good
suggestions in his free jazz handbook on his site. Hal Crook's amazing
book, has a recommended tune list for beginners.( How to Improvise).
Blue Bossa, All Blues, Satin Doll,On The Trail,....all fit this bill.
When studying to learn the principles, IMHO simpler is usually better.
A song like "Satin Doll" provides a great introduction to how jazz songs
move; ditto "I Got Rhythm" which is one of the two songs Bird said he
learned. "Blue Bossa" is a superb introduction to the minor ii-V-i
progression.
It's tempting to be macho and think you have to study complicated songs
in order to learn how to play jazz, but IMHO it's better to take the
building block approach and learn small units of things well and then
learn to string them together to play a "Joy Spring" or a "Stella By
Starlight."