Altered chords
Maxarno
Sometimes in a chart one see e.g. Bb7alt and in the same tune one can see
chords like Eb b9#5 or #9b5. aren't they altered too ?.
Is there a specific reason ?
Those fingerings were a G7 alt
X6668X
X4544X
XX9866
Sorry for my altered english
Max
Robby
alt is GBDbD#FAbA#. Often looked at as 7th mode of Ab melodic minor
scale: G Ab Bb B Db Eb F.
Joey Goldstein
In some of Bill Leavitt's books you'll sometimes see an Dom7(alt5) or a
Dom7(alt9) chord symbol. This is an older technique that you don't see
too much these days.
Alt5 means "if you are going to voice a 5th in the chord or stress a 5th
in your melody it should be either b5 or #5". It also means that a maj
13th will clash with something else (the melody perhaps) that is going
on. The quality of the 9th is up to you and a sense of good taste.
Alt9 means "if you are going to voice a 9th in the chord or stress a 9th
in your melody it should be either b9 or #9". The quality of the 5th
and/or the 13th is up to you and a sense of good taste.
You see chord symbols like these in older style big band arrangements
where the rhythm section might clash with some of the writing if the
unaltered notes were sounded.
Dom7(alt) means both simultaneously. All 5ths are altered. All 9ths are
altered. But it also means that there should be no P5th, that any 13ths
should be flat and that any 11ths should be sharp (since #11 and b5 are
enharmonic equivalents as are #5 and b13).
So the only un-altered notes in a Dom7(alt) chord are 1 3 and b7 (b7 is
the normal 7th of a dom7 chord). This is a shell voicing for a dom7
chord. The additions that are supposed to be allowed on a Dom7(alt)
chord are b9, #9, #11 and b13. So the chord scale is usually thought of as:
1 b2 #2 3 (#4)b5 #5(b6) b7 1
This is enharmonically equivalent to a Melodic Minor scale beginning a
half step above the Dom7(alt) chord's root.
But many players take this chord symbol to mean Dom7(free for all). You
will hear many real good players use P5ths, maj 13ths and even some maj
9ths when they see this chord symbol. IMO they are just using creative
license. If they are good players it can sound great. If they are not
they will sound out of place at best.
--
Regards:
Joey Goldstein
Guitarist/Jazz Recording Artist/Teacher
Home Page: http://webhome.idirect.com/~joegold
Email: <joegold AT idirect DOT com>
jshoot
changes. So check out what the melody note is to better understand what
voices of the chord might be best. Those other chords that the book does
not list as Alt chords *could* be labeled as alt chords. It is just the
discrepant way the chart.
JazzLOCO
alterations to the 7th chord, such as the 9th, 11, and 13th... What
alteration of the extensions you use depends on what note is playing on the
melody at that time... I don't know if that helps, but I just wanted to add
that to your comment... thanx
Jesus "ELVIS"Almenas
Jazz Guitarist, Composer, Director...
Joey Goldstein
JazzLOCO wrote:
>
> when an Alt cord appears(i.e. Calt7)
Sorry but that should read C7alt not Calt7. Calt7 is not a recognized
chord symbol in any jazz circles that I am aware of.
> it means that you can use any
> alterations to the 7th chord, such as the 9th, 11, and 13th...
I'm sorry again but that is not true. I've explained to the best of my
ability in an earlier post in this thread what the Dom7alt chord symbol
is supposed to mean. Take it or leave it but that's what it means in the
jazz community at large.
> What
> alteration of the extensions you use depends on what note is playing on the
> melody at that time...
Of course that is good advice always.
But a writer who uses the Dom7alt chord symbol should have two
situations in mind.
1. The written melody should work well with most voicings of
Dom7#5(b9 #9 #11)
2. On the blowing the solists, the accompanist and the bassist should
consider that the altered scale is the focus of harmonic and melodic
activity for the duration of the altered chord.
The Dom7alt chord symbol implies a certain amount of creative control on
the part of the arranger. He is saying that at this point in the tune on
this particular Dom7 chord that maj 9ths, P5ths and maj 13ths are not
desireable. If he wanted to leave it up to the players to interpret the
quality of the Dom7 chord at their own discretion he should have written
a simple Dom7 chord symbol instead.
> I don't know if that helps, but I just wanted to add
> that to your comment... thanx
>
> Jesus "ELVIS"Almenas
> Jazz Guitarist, Composer, Director...
--
David Moss
"Joey Goldstein" wrote...
> I'm sorry again but that is not true. I've explained to the best of my
> ability in an earlier post in this thread what the Dom7alt chord symbol
> is supposed to mean.
Pretty clear explanation too, IMHO.
I was interested to see in Mark Levine's book the pianists's
subtly different perspective - as a guitarist, I learnt (here on
the newsgroup) that G7alt means when comping, play (G) B F
with EITHER Db or D# AND/OR Ab or A#, according to
what sounds good and what's within reach of my fingers - and
when soloing, it means play Ab mel minor while remembering
that G B F are the important chord tones.
Levine's explanation is, the symbol G7alt means ALL the
notes G Ab A# B Db D# F, regardless of whether you're
playing chords or single notes - in either case you'll actually
be playing a subset of those notes of your choice, so there's
no reason to make a distinction. I kind of like that way of
looking at it.
(Maybe it should be G Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F? Aaaah, who cares!)
JAlbin1916
>Dom7(alt) means both simultaneously. All 5ths are altered. All 9ths are
>altered. But it also means that there should be no P5th, that any 13ths
>should be flat and that any 11ths should be sharp (since #11 and b5 are
>enharmonic equivalents as are #5 and b13). [Snip]
>But many players take this chord symbol
>to mean Dom7(free for all). ...
I often find that unaltered 13ths, and even 11th's sounds fine where some
variant on Dom7(alt) is written in a lead sheet. This usually suggests to me
that it should have been written as a plain old dom7 chord. I guess this
ultimately leads back to the "fake books are wrong; the Real Book is Really
Wrong" discussions.
Because of the pervasiveness of this kind or error in both fakebooks and legit,
published lead sheets, I find it pretty hard *not* to read Dom7(alt) as
Dom(free for all). Consequently, I view pretty much any variant on a Dom7 as
"alter and extend according to harmonic and melodic context" and ignore the
specific written voicing.
-John
Nuke "hatespam" to reply
Joey Goldstein
What if the chart had been written by a musician you knew personally and
whose musical judgement you respected?
jimmyb
inexperienced players. Harmony, in a jazz band (trio, quartet etc) is
horizontal NOT vertical
"David Moss" <david...@ifia.fzk.de> wrote in message
news:8mrpio$8hl$1...@hiknews1.fzk.de...
Thomas F Brown
jimmyb <jbg...@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
>it means nothing when soloing unless you are playing with amatuers or
>inexperienced players. Harmony, in a jazz band (trio, quartet etc) is
>horizontal NOT vertical
I'd say it's both horizontal and vertical. I mean, if you hear
the soloist playing an altered dominant while you're comping,
aren't you more likely to play an alt chord for him? That's the
vertical part.
The horizontal part is that if you have a good diminished
thing going on while the soloist has a good altered scale
thing going on at the same time, it just creates more tension
leading up until you both finally resolve into major. So
in that sense I totally agree with you that the chord
symbol means little or nothing, especially on a dom7 chord.
JAlbin1916
>>I find it pretty hard *not* to read Dom7(alt) as
>> Dom(free for all). Consequently, I view pretty much any variant on a Dom7
as
>> "alter and extend according to harmonic and melodic context" and ignore the
>> specific written voicing.
>What if the chart had been written by a musician you knew personally and
>whose musical judgement you respected?
>
I trust *lots* of people's musical judgment better than my own :) So, I'm more
than willing to take direction. I guess under those circumstances I lean more
toward playing it as written, and then watching out on the blowing choruses.
In any event, I think the key is always to listen, pay attention, and look like
you meant it when you play a clam.
Joey Goldstein
reharmonising stuff on the fly. It goes sort of counter to the overall
spirit of jazz but can also help to keep things organised.
When GB writes an altered chord symbol he means it and he'll get a
little ticked off at you if you emphasize many sounds from outside of
that pitch set.
William Leavitt also has comments through out his books that to freely
alter chords that are not indicated as altered and visa versa is in his
words "madness".
In a pop music written arrangement situation and even in a jazz big band
I've always thought that the chord symbols should be interpreted as
literally as possible, assuming that the writer knows what he is doing.
When playing some types of jazz with a piano player it is sometimes wise
to map out your chord-scales beforehand to avoid potential rubs too.
In a jazz setting where I am the only chordal instrument however I only
pay lip service to the chord symbols on a lead sheet.
--
mike
"I'm copying this tune off the record, I don't have the sheet
music, the chord has a #9 or something, rather than make a
mistake, I don't have time, figure it out for yourself!"
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Nicholas Delonas
jalbi...@aol.comhatespam says...
> In any event, I think the key is always to listen, pay attention, and look like
> you meant it when you play a clam.
LOL!
Like I always say, "if you're going to play badly, do it with gusto!"
--
Nick Delonas
My band: http://ironia.net
My cult: http://cultv.com
My day job: http://digitalsg.com
jshoot
>Harmony, in a jazz band (trio, quartet etc) is
>horizontal NOT vertical
What if you rotate it 90 degrees?
icarusi
news:8n1kd1$c4p$1...@husk.cso.niu.edu...
Yes! Try to explain it to a cellist ( the upright bassist is already
confused!)
Icarusi
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