Solo Scales and Melody Over Recordame (Joe Henderson)
Paul
A HM or A Dorian >> Am
C Dorian >> Cm, F7, BbMaj7
Bb Dorian >> Bbm7, Eb7, AbMaj7
Ab Dorian >> Abm7, Db7, GbMaj7
G Dorian >> Gm7, C7
E Altered or A HM >> FMaj7, E7#9
Again, if anyone can suggest other scale
options, please do.
And I've noticed that very few guitarists
will try this saxophone melody on Youtube.
My theory is because it's not a very
natural line to play on guitar, and most
guitarists don't sight read very well,
and mainly want to wail over changes.
The only guitarist who actually plays
the head melody is this Victor Kamper
fella:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EI0bUVLuqL8
He plays very smoothly on both
the melody and the solo.
Do you all agree that he's fingering this melody
the "correct" or easiest way? In particular,
the A, B, A in the first part of the 4th measure,
he plays the A on the second string, 10th fret.
I'm aware that it looks easier, because you are
already in the 8th fret position, but it's difficult to
just barre the 1st and 2nd strings at the 10th
fret, because the G on the 2nd string comes
very quickly afterwards.
I found pretty much alternate picking to be
best....
southtexasguitarist
Other Am flavors include A melodic minor, A minor pentatonic, E min
pent, and B min pent. A more advanced scale is the 1/2/whole
diminished, starting with a whole step from A. Try Ab/A for a chord if
you're trying out the diminished.
> C Dorian >> Cm, F7, BbMaj7
Technically this isn't C Dorian, but a ii V I into Bb major, which is
repeated in the keys of Ab, Gb, and F.
> Bb Dorian >> Bbm7, Eb7, AbMaj7
> Ab Dorian >> Abm7, Db7, GbMaj7
> G Dorian >> Gm7, C7
> E Altered or A HM >> FMaj7, E7#9
>
> Again, if anyone can suggest other scale
> options, please do.
> And I've noticed that very few guitarists
> will try this saxophone melody on Youtube.
> My theory is because it's not a very
> natural line to play on guitar, and most
> guitarists don't sight read very well,
> and mainly want to wail over changes.
Who knows why there aren't more guitarists playing this a on youtube,
but it's an easy melody and an easy tune. I play it in my current
group and have in many other groups and sessions.
>
> The only guitarist who actually plays
> the head melody is this Victor Kamper
> fella:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EI0bUVLuqL8
>
> He plays very smoothly on both
> the melody and the solo.
>
> Do you all agree that he's fingering this melody
> the "correct" or easiest way? In particular,
> the A, B, A in the first part of the 4th measure,
> he plays the A on the second string, 10th fret.
> I'm aware that it looks easier, because you are
> already in the 8th fret position, but it's difficult to
> just barre the 1st and 2nd strings at the 10th
> fret, because the G on the 2nd string comes
> very quickly afterwards.
The melody is easy to finger starting in 5th position, but it's also
easy in 9th position, or in 2nd position if you're down an octave. 7th
position is more awkward because of the string skips, but again it's
not that hard of a melody. That said, I normally play it similarly to
the guy on youtube.
>
> I found pretty much alternate picking to be
> best..
No comment here.
Clay
Paul
> On Dec 26, 3:58 am, Paul <quiller...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > So far I'm using:
>
> > A HM or A Dorian >> Am
>
> Other Am flavors include A melodic minor, A minor pentatonic, E min
> pent, and B min pent. A more advanced scale is the 1/2/whole
> diminished, starting with a whole step from A. Try Ab/A for a chord if
> you're trying out the diminished.
>
Good ideas. I keep forgetting about the MM scale,
but it's very beautiful. Amazing how just one note change
can affect the entire feel of the lines you play.
I never noticed that the B min pent. starting on the A
note is something of a "genderless" scale, with no third
or sevenths. Sounds interesting, but I'll have to play
with it a bit more.
And you mean the Diminished WH, right? That was
cool as well, especially dovetailed to the C Dorian. Ab/A
is a bit far out, but it does fit the scale. Something
like: x 0 6 5 4 4 ? The lines from the scale sound
better than the chord!
> > C Dorian >> Cm, F7, BbMaj7
>
> Technically this isn't C Dorian, but a ii V I into Bb major, which is
> repeated in the keys of Ab, Gb, and F.
>
Well, I was chastised for being an elitist Jazz snob
who thinks too much, so I didn't want to say C Dorian,
to F Mixolydian, to Bb Major (Ionian)! :)
The point is that it's all just different
modes of the same scale and the same notes, but
the chord changes happen so fast, there's no real
need to think about modes.
> > Bb Dorian >> Bbm7, Eb7, AbMaj7
> > Ab Dorian >> Abm7, Db7, GbMaj7
> > G Dorian >> Gm7, C7
> > E Altered or A HM >> FMaj7, E7#9
>
> > Again, if anyone can suggest other scale
> > options, please do.
> > And I've noticed that very few guitarists
> > will try this saxophone melody on Youtube.
> > My theory is because it's not a very
> > natural line to play on guitar, and most
> > guitarists don't sight read very well,
> > and mainly want to wail over changes.
>
> Who knows why there aren't more guitarists playing this a on youtube,
> but it's an easy melody and an easy tune. I play it in my current
> group and have in many other groups and sessions.
>
>
It's not as easy a melody as Autumn Leaves! haha....
Rick Stone
> So far I'm using:
>
> A HM or A Dorian>> Am
> C Dorian>> Cm, F7, BbMaj7
> Bb Dorian>> Bbm7, Eb7, AbMaj7
> Ab Dorian>> Abm7, Db7, GbMaj7
> G Dorian>> Gm7, C7
> E Altered or A HM>> FMaj7, E7#9
Sounds like you're not paying attention to the resolutions. There are a
ton of things you could be doing with the V7 chords in all those ii-7 V7
I progressions (how about altered, or harmonic minor, or diminished,
whole-tone, etc.) and you've got to come out on the I chord, which also
has options (major, lydian, major pentatonics on the root, 5th or 2nd,
etc.) If you start looking at the tune as a series of scales though, I
think you'll drive yourself nuts. The real deal is to learn the scales
that go with chords SO WELL that you no longer need to "think" about it.
Personally, I just think the chords, or sometimes even just the key
centers. I'm often "aware" of certain scale choices I might be making,
but that's not really what's driving my playing.
> Again, if anyone can suggest other scale
> options, please do.
Even though this is the popular way to teach jazz improvisation
nowadays, it's not really all about "scales" per se. You should spend a
lot of time practicing them to be sure, but not just "running" them, but
rather learning to USE them to build melodic content around chord
changes. Why not start out by learning licks and phrases over common
chord progressions like the ii-7 V7 I, and then analyze those to see
what's going on. Play them in a bunch of positions on the neck and
through different keys, and learn to hear and visualize the chords they
go with. Then start coming up with your own by changing the ones you've
learned.
> And I've noticed that very few guitarists
> will try this saxophone melody on Youtube.
> My theory is because it's not a very
> natural line to play on guitar, and most
> guitarists don't sight read very well,
> and mainly want to wail over changes.
Sight-reading has really nothing to do with playing a tune like this
(unless you've lived in a cave somewhere and never heard it and then
were suddenly expected to play it from a lead sheet). The truth is that
anybody who plays these songs has heard and/or played them THOUSANDS of
times. It becomes very intuitive and is not a heavy left-brain activity.
> The only guitarist who actually plays
> the head melody is this Victor Kamper
> fella:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EI0bUVLuqL8
I don't know, this "Rick Stone" character hopefully doesn't suck at it
either; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSPm3IdLNN8
> He plays very smoothly on both
> the melody and the solo.
He does a very decent job.
> Do you all agree that he's fingering this melody
> the "correct" or easiest way? In particular,
> the A, B, A in the first part of the 4th measure,
> he plays the A on the second string, 10th fret.
> I'm aware that it looks easier, because you are
> already in the 8th fret position, but it's difficult to
> just barre the 1st and 2nd strings at the 10th
> fret, because the G on the 2nd string comes
> very quickly afterwards.
>
> I found pretty much alternate picking to be
> best....
There is no "correct" fingering, but I've played the tune for about 30
years and he seems to be making a lot of the same choices. Whatever
"works" is "correct."
--
Musically Yours,
Rick Stone
Website: http://www.rickstone.com
Recordings: http://www.cdbaby.com/all/jazzand
Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/jazzand
Myspace: http://www.myspace.com/rickstonemusic
EPK: http://www.sonicbids.com/rickstone
unknownguitarplayer
I get the impression that you think there's a secret club of guitar
players where we agree to all play the same stuff. It's just not that
way, Paul, and you've seen that broad range of interpretation in the
last one of these open questions you posted. I don't mean to
discourage you from asking questions and taking advantage of the many
knowledgeable and generous folks who post here. But I would suggest
that you wait until you hit a real roadblock, and not use up the
opportunity on something like Recordame, that you can figure out by
listening and thinking.
Recordame is a wonderful Joe Henderson tune, but it has become one of
those "Blue Bossa" / "Killer Joe" kind of tunes that students move
onto after tacking "All Blues" and "So What". It's a good tune to
learn on, because it is a transition from modal playing (the first 8
bars) to changes that moves through a couple of keys. There's nothing
the least bit intimidating about the melody, and it could be that
people don't play it on youtube posts out of copyright concerns.
In approaching tunes, one way to look at them is to ask what is
different about a particular tune that distinguishes it from others.
One thing to notice in Recordame is that in the first 8 bars the
melody is emphasizes the 6th of each minor chord. That should give
you plenty of information about how to play (and not to play) on those
2 chords. Another distinctive feature is parallel harmony in the
first 8 bars, which opens other possibilities.
The questions you are asking make the tune more complicated than it
is. To quote an old violin player named Einstein: "Make everything as
simple as possible, but not simpler".
kentburnside
Years ago my wife and I tried to learn ballroom dancing. It was a
miserable experience for me; I spent all my time counting and thinking
about my steps, rather than simply enjoying the flow of the music (and
holding my wife close). I bring this up because the approach to
improvisation you're suggesting here reminds me a lot of those dancing
lessons. Remember Bird's advice: Learn it all, practice it all, then
forget it all and just play. As Rick says here, and as Mark Levine
says in <Jazz Theory>, think KEY rather than chord or scale; the
descending 2-5-1 progressions in "Recorda Me" are a great place to
work on this (also the bridge in "Cherokee").
Jimmy Bruno has pointed out somewhere that the obsession with modes/
scales is great for analyzing what's already been played--for example,
on a recording--but not so great for improvising in the moment.
Once you memorize it, "Recorda Me" is actually a pretty nice tune on
guitar--you can play the melody in two different octaves, and if you
play it in the higher one there are several easy chord grabs with the
melody note on top.
Kent Burnside
www.kentburnside.com
www.facebook.com/kentburnside
www.reverbnation.com/kentburnside
Paul
Well, I posted: "C Dorian >> Cm, F7, BbMaj7"
Which implies Bb Major over the whole 2-5-1, and not
thinking about modes.
kentburnside
Point taken. However, your real goal is to get to the point where
you're not even thinking that consciously. For example, when your
finger hits an A note over those changes, ideally you're not thinking
that it's the 6th of Cm, the 3rd of F7, and the M7th of Bb--your ear
already knows what that A is going to sound like over all three of the
chords, and leads your hand where it needs to go, then takes you to
the next note and the next to execute whatever melodic idea is going
through your mind.
This sounds kind of airy-fairy, but after you improvise over these
tunes long enough it starts to happen organically. George Benson
mentioned once that he knows, for example, what an E note will sound
like against any C chord, any G chord, and so on. That's really the
mindset we're all striving for :)
Joey Goldstein
>
> Well, I posted: "C Dorian>> Cm, F7, BbMaj7"
>
> Which implies Bb Major over the whole 2-5-1, and not
> thinking about modes.
There are a few reasons why a player might want to think in terms of
modal scales as opposed to "key-scales" (i.e. the major or minor scales
traditionally associated with the major or minor key the music is in at
any particular time), and there's a few reasons why a player might want
to think in terms of key-scales vs modal scales.
1. When the music is actually modal it makes very little sense to think
in terms of keys or of key-scales.
Modern modal music often involves changes in mode as opposed to to
traditional modal music which tended to stay within a single mode for
the entire piece.
2. When naming and enumerating a scale in relation to the root of a
chord (other than the I or Im chord) as part of the study of the
relationship between the scale in question and that chord, it often
makes sense to name the scale with a modal name.
3. In non-modal music where passages of the harmony are static on a
single chord other than I or Im it often makes sense to think as if the
root of that chord is some sort of temporary modal tonic as opposed to
the actual tonic of the key the music is really in.
4. On the other hand, in music with a busy harmonic rhythm in which all
of the chords involved are diatonic to a single major or minor key, it
usually makes more sense to not think in terms of modes or modal scales
but to think in terms of the scale most closely associated with that key.
The first 4 bars of Recordame set up a modal vamp on A dorian.
This is differentiated from a traditional key feeling of A minor by the
emphasis on F# in the melody and in the backing arrangement.
The progression lasts long enough to be felt as a temporary tonal
centre, a modal tonal centre.
For this passage I think it makes more sense to be thinking about the A
dorian scale as opposed to the G major scale.
[On the other hand, the Am chord is always preceded by E7, so this
really is a traditional key of a minor here. But the tonic chord has a
dorian modal colouring associated with it. This knowledge might also
lead to other non-dorian approaches to playing off of this change. I.e.
Try playing off of it the same way you'd play off of the Im chord in A
minor.]
The next 4 bar passage starts on Cm7 and sounds like a transposition of
the first 4 bars with it's melody and background arrangement that also
emphasizes the maj 6th above the root. IMO It makes more sense to be
thinking about C dorian here as opposed to Bb major.
[Notice also that the Cm chord is *not* preceded by G7 which makes for
an even stronger case to treat this chord modally.]
But that's only true for 3.5 bars and then the F7 arrives - on its way
to Bb.
From bar 8 of the tune into bar 9 it is much more sensible to be
thinking in terms of the Bb maj scale as opposed to the C dorian scale.
While the rhythm section is on F7 and/or Bb it makes *no sense* to be
thinking about C dorian.
Thru the other IIm7_V7-I progressions in this tune, which all move
fairly quickly it makes no sense to be thinking in terms of the dorian
scale built on the IIm7 chords. It makes much more sense to think in
terms of the resolution points, i.e. the tonics, of the keys that are
involved. Ab major, Gb major and F major (see below).
My only exception to that is the F chord on which my ears tell me to
play F lydian as opposed to F major.
The B nat in F lyd helps to foreshadow the coming E7 chord and the
return back to the key of a minor.
Now, you can also try lyd on all the other maj chords, but the #4/#11
will tend to sound a bit more forced on those chords, because of the
surrounding harmony.
As others have suggested, these scale choices above are just simple
defaults and there are lots of other ways that one might approach using
scales and or arpeggios over this chord progression.
--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
<http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/AudioClips/audio.htm>
joegold AT primus DOT ca
Gerry
> Remember Bird's advice: Learn it all, practice it all, then
> forget it all and just play.
This quote morphs endlessly. As cited in "Bird Lives" ('71), Parker
once told someone: "First you learn your instrument, then you learn
your music. Then you forget all that shit and blow."
--
-- Gerry
charlieguitar
>
> - Show quoted text -
Without going into a whole lot about scales and modes,try to think of
things like tri-tone subs and extended chords and other possibilities
will present themselves immediatly.Just playing off the Dorian mode or
it's related major scale for 2/5/1's can become boring fast. A good
test is to play Henderson's solo and try to identify the notes that
don't belong to those scales for each key center and you will discover
the limitations to that method.Joe Pass for instance only thought of
major,minor and seventh chords while adding his own subs,extesions
etc.The same can done when looking for material to play over changes.
Charlie
Paul K
>>
>
> Well, I posted: "C Dorian>> Cm, F7, BbMaj7"
>
> Which implies Bb Major over the whole 2-5-1, and not
> thinking about modes.
>
>
Like many of the other upstream posts, I'd agree that you might consider
the harmonic movement rather than just chord-scale, provided your goal
is to learn the language. At the very least, on the II-V-I make it sound
like you recognize that's what i happening. Eg use Joe Pass's trick on
II-V-I into Bbmaj of playing Bbmi7 on the II-V and BbMaj on the I.
That said, if I wanted to play a chorus where I wanted to think
chord/scales I might do something like this with pentatonics:
Ami: F# m7b5 pentatonic
Cmi: Am7b5 pentatonic
Cm7-F7-Bbmaj: Gm7pentatonic/Abm7 pentatonic/Am7pentatonic
Bbm7-E7-Abmaj: Em7pentatonic-> Ebmi7b5 pentatonic
Abm7-Db7-Gbmaj: Bm7pentatonic->Cmi7b5 pentatonic
Gm7-C7-Fmaj: Dm7pent/Ebm7pent/Em7pent
E7#9: Bm7b5 pentatonic
I'd probably get bored with this halfway through the chorus and try
something else. But the point of writing these down is to indicate
1. at least think of a V-I as a unit and choose scales that resolve (eg
up or down a half step)
2. pentatonics have fewer notes than 7 note scales, and so are a little
bit more melodic, in the sense that their structure is easier to hear.
3. Some of these are pretty out, so you'll have to analyze them to see
why/if they make sense.
--
Paul K
http://www.soundclick.com/paulkirk
http://www.youtube.com/user/fibrationboy
http://mypage.iu.edu/~pkirk/
rpjazzguitar
If you look at the pickup and the first three bars, you'll see that
the melody uses the following notes .. A B C E F# G. If you reorganize
them you get A C E G B F#. That's Am13, give or take an 11th. And, if
you look at the value of the individual notes, you find that he leans
on the F# (half note) and the root, ninth and seventh for quarter
notes. So, that gives you an idea about which notes to play (and which
to emphasize) to get the same sort of sound as the melody. Since
there's a G and not a G#, it's neither A harm minor or A melodic
minor. A dorian fits.
But, that doesn't mean you can't play something different during a
solo. I'm just pointing out what the melody does. I think the G#
sounds good and A melodic minor is a good choice. The F in A harm min
gives a different sound than the F# (which gives the melody its
character) so maybe A harm min isn't quite as good a choice.
But, all of this is kind of a post-hoc review. In reality, hearing an
Am6 or Am13 isn't that difficult. The 6 notes in the melody should be
easy to hear. After that, you've got A# C# D D# F and G#. Try them
all. Figure out the ones you like. Figure out the ones that tend to
sound like clams (don't expunge them, just treat them carefully). Then
you've got your basic scale - if you want to think that way.
Better yet, take the various ideas that people have offered and try to
learn the sounds.
Then, when you play the tune, sing a line in your mind and play that.
Rick
Paul
You mean like instead of just Bb Major scale over Cm, F7, BbMaj7,
play Cm, B7, BbMaj7, and sneak the B Lydian b7 scale in between?
It sounds good when I play it slowly, but the dominant
7th chord only lasts for 1/2 a measure!
That's a good sounding idea, but I'll have to practice it! haha
Paul
I certainly do not think about the notes, once I have
learned the scale shapes I want to use. Really, they are
all just shapes for me to play with. But if you play what
sounds "good", it's gonna start fitting into the modes in some
form or another. Certainly my solo phrasing depends on
which chord I'm on in the 2-5-1, and there are certain
stock licks that fit this progression. But I'm certainly
not thinking like Al Di Meola, where he's supposedly
consciously aware of where all the 3rds and 7ths are
for each chord, so he knows where to end a phrase!
I'm still just playing by ear, and playing what
sounds good to me, within the scale shapes I
have chosen and practiced with. But I'm finding
that a bit of homework DOES make a difference,
and certainly gives you more options to chose
from.
Paul
> There's plenty of info in earlier posts, but I'd add this point.
>
> If you look at the pickup and the first three bars, you'll see that
> the melody uses the following notes .. A B C E F# G. If you reorganize
> them you get A C E G B F#. That's Am13, give or take an 11th. And, if
> you look at the value of the individual notes, you find that he leans
> on the F# (half note) and the root, ninth and seventh for quarter
> notes. So, that gives you an idea about which notes to play (and which
> to emphasize) to get the same sort of sound as the melody. Since
> there's a G and not a G#, it's neither A harm minor or A melodic
> minor. A dorian fits.
>
> But, that doesn't mean you can't play something different during a
> solo. I'm just pointing out what the melody does. I think the G#
> sounds good and A melodic minor is a good choice. The F in A harm min
> gives a different sound than the F# (which gives the melody its
> character) so maybe A harm min isn't quite as good a choice.
>
The HM is more of a gypsy sound, and I tend to play it
a lot. But the MM is very pretty, and fits this melody better,
as you mention. Although the solo should really depart from
the main melody to some degree, especially later.
But yeah, I'm sounding a bit too much like a Django clone!
There's enough of them already! haha
> But, all of this is kind of a post-hoc review. In reality, hearing an
> Am6 or Am13 isn't that difficult. The 6 notes in the melody should be
> easy to hear. After that, you've got A# C# D D# F and G#. Try them
> all. Figure out the ones you like. Figure out the ones that tend to
> sound like clams (don't expunge them, just treat them carefully). Then
> you've got your basic scale - if you want to think that way.
>
> Better yet, take the various ideas that people have offered and try to
> learn the sounds.
>
> Then, when you play the tune, sing a line in your mind and play that.
>
> Rick
I just saw "The Genius Within", with Glenn Gould. His mother
taught him to sing everything that he played, but then he couldn't
stop
as he got older, and recording engineers had to struggle to minimize
his singing.
But it's good advice, because if you can play anything on your
instrument that you can sing (assuming you aren't the worst singer!) ,
you
have gone quite a ways....
Paul
Bands tend to play very fast, mainly due to a hyperactive
drummer, so I just use the E Altered over both FMaj7 and E7#9,
even though the major 3rd of the F is missing.
There's some Doug McKenzie piano jazz guy on
Youtube, who does tricks like playing virtually ANYTHING
for a very short time, and gets away with it as long as
he resolves to something that makes harmonic sense.....
Paul
> On 12/26/2010 4:58 AM, Paul wrote:
>
> > So far I'm using:
>
> > A HM or A Dorian>> Am
> > C Dorian>> Cm, F7, BbMaj7
> > Bb Dorian>> Bbm7, Eb7, AbMaj7
> > Ab Dorian>> Abm7, Db7, GbMaj7
> > G Dorian>> Gm7, C7
> > E Altered or A HM>> FMaj7, E7#9
>
> Sounds like you're not paying attention to the resolutions. There are a
> ton of things you could be doing with the V7 chords in all those ii-7 V7
> I progressions (how about altered, or harmonic minor, or diminished,
> whole-tone, etc.) and you've got to come out on the I chord, which also
> has options (major, lydian, major pentatonics on the root, 5th or 2nd,
> etc.) If you start looking at the tune as a series of scales though, I
> think you'll drive yourself nuts. The real deal is to learn the scales
> that go with chords SO WELL that you no longer need to "think" about it.
> Personally, I just think the chords, or sometimes even just the key
> centers. I'm often "aware" of certain scale choices I might be making,
> but that's not really what's driving my playing.
>
The Altered scale on the V7 sounds good, and surprise,
surprise....it's the same scale as the Lydian b7 scale of the
tritone sub! Nice!
You mean you haven't figured out how to keep
playing while turning the volume knob?? jk!! haha
Tough gig....no drummer.....
Rick Stone
> On Dec 26, 7:35 am, Rick Stone<rickst...@rickstone.com> wrote:
>> I don't know, this "Rick Stone" character hopefully doesn't suck at it
>> either; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSPm3IdLNN8
>
> You mean you haven't figured out how to keep
> playing while turning the volume knob?? jk!! haha
>
> Tough gig....no drummer.....
Hey Paul, I'm playing BOTH pickups, so there are two volume controls and
it takes a little longer to get both of them right. I'm actually
starting to use a volume pedal on gigs for that reason, but I was
traveling light in Italy (just the guitar and a Korg Pandora box and
using whichever amp the club provided. On my Comins with the single
floating pickup and volume knob within reach on the pickguard, I'm
pretty good at riding it (to do fade-ins etc. ala Phil Keagy).
I'm actually fine with playing without a drummer. Unless it's a great
drummer, I prefer playing duo.
Tim McNamara
<943bea41-f797-412f...@u25g2000pra.googlegroups.com>,
Paul <quill...@gmail.com> wrote:
Well, no. Specifying C Dorian suggests you're thinking about modes.
specifying Bb major would suggest you're thinking about tonal centers.
:-)
Your questions are stimulating some interesting conversation, not only
about the "how to" aspect but about elucidating philosophies of playing
jazz.
--
"It is not unfrequent to hear men declaim loudly upon liberty, who, if we may
judge by the whole tenor of their actions, mean nothing else by it but their
own liberty � to oppress without control or the restraint of laws all who
are poorer or weaker than themselves." Samuel Adams
Tim McNamara
<3245daa6-cdfd-4a65...@c17g2000prm.googlegroups.com>,
Paul <quill...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 26, 9:59 am, kentburnside <ksburns...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > This sounds kind of airy-fairy, but after you improvise over these
> > tunes long enough it starts to happen organically. George Benson
> > mentioned once that he knows, for example, what an E note will
> > sound like against any C chord, any G chord, and so on. That's
> > really the mindset we're all striving for :)
>
>
> I certainly do not think about the notes, once I have learned the
> scale shapes I want to use. Really, they are all just shapes for me
> to play with.
This is fundamentally different from a horn or piano player who must
know the note being played against the chord, because their fingering
patterns are different for every key unlike the guitar. Guitar lends
itself to autopilot playing of shapes without knowing the notes being
played. It is an easy instrument to play and an extremely difficult one
to master.
> But if you play what sounds "good", it's gonna start fitting into the
> modes in some form or another. Certainly my solo phrasing depends on
> which chord I'm on in the 2-5-1, and there are certain stock licks
> that fit this progression. But I'm certainly not thinking like Al
> Di Meola, where he's supposedly consciously aware of where all the
> 3rds and 7ths are for each chord, so he knows where to end a phrase!
Knowing where the guide tones are at all times will help one's phrasing
tremendously. Without that there is a tendency for one's playing to
sound random and not really associated with the song (unfortunately this
is all too common and all too accepted in jazz); with them and one's
solos sound like they actually relate to the harmony.
charlieguitar
>
> - Show quoted text -
You are on the right track now, You could even just play off the B7
and for get about the C-7 Dorian.
Charlie
335
I think it was Dizzy who said he liked to think of a rhythmic idea
first and then try to fit a phrase or line to that rhythm. It's a
good way to practice at least part of the time because it makes you
hear in phrases and it also forces you to play what you are able to
hear and not just noodle around with sounds the scales might
suggest.
The really tough part of thinking of a tune in terms of a glossary of
scales is that you put a lot of time into vertical note against chord
kind of thinking to the possible detriment of learning to play
coherent rhythmic horizontal phrases that have a strong resolution.
You need to have both, scale knowledge and melodic development chops
that will make your ideas come alive rhythmically. But you can have
supposedly wrong notes - that don't fit the scale - in your phrases if
you resolve them.
There's nothing wrong with basing your solo ideas off the original
melody at first or maybe use a rhythmic motive from the tune with your
own note choices which don't have to be really complicated. Stick
close to the melody at first and see where that takes you.
Joey Goldstein
>
> Bands tend to play very fast, mainly due to a hyperactive
> drummer, so I just use the E Altered over both FMaj7 and E7#9,
> even though the major 3rd of the F is missing.
The easiest thing to play thru both those chords is the C major scale.
F lyd = C maj starting on F
E mix b2b6 = A harm min starting on E = C major with G# instead of G
But G sounds fine too on E7. So use both the G and the G# too if you
like, or one or the other.
> There's some Doug McKenzie piano jazz guy on
> Youtube, who does tricks like playing virtually ANYTHING
> for a very short time, and gets away with it as long as
> he resolves to something that makes harmonic sense.....
>
Paul
> In article
> <3245daa6-cdfd-4a65-a994-ed3a5c453...@c17g2000prm.googlegroups.com>,
>
> Paul <quiller...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Dec 26, 9:59 am, kentburnside <ksburns...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > This sounds kind of airy-fairy, but after you improvise over these
> > > tunes long enough it starts to happen organically. George Benson
> > > mentioned once that he knows, for example, what an E note will
> > > sound like against any C chord, any G chord, and so on. That's
> > > really the mindset we're all striving for :)
>
> > I certainly do not think about the notes, once I have learned the
> > scale shapes I want to use. Really, they are all just shapes for me
> > to play with.
>
> This is fundamentally different from a horn or piano player who must
> know the note being played against the chord, because their fingering
> patterns are different for every key unlike the guitar. Guitar lends
> itself to autopilot playing of shapes without knowing the notes being
> played. It is an easy instrument to play and an extremely difficult one
> to master.
>
There are scale "shapes" or patterns on piano too, and you can
auto pilot to some degree on them as well. But just because there
are scale shapes doesn't mean you can start and end phrases
anywhere, and it will fit the progression.
> > But if you play what sounds "good", it's gonna start fitting into the
> > modes in some form or another. Certainly my solo phrasing depends on
> > which chord I'm on in the 2-5-1, and there are certain stock licks
> > that fit this progression. But I'm certainly not thinking like Al
> > Di Meola, where he's supposedly consciously aware of where all the
> > 3rds and 7ths are for each chord, so he knows where to end a phrase!
>
> Knowing where the guide tones are at all times will help one's phrasing
> tremendously. Without that there is a tendency for one's playing to
> sound random and not really associated with the song (unfortunately this
> is all too common and all too accepted in jazz); with them and one's
> solos sound like they actually relate to the harmony.
>
Well, for this song, there are some licks I play that
definitely start on the 4th tone of the iim7 (of the 2-5-1), which
sound good, but again, I didn't consciously think about this
when I found these licks....i just found them.
But it's certainly true, where you start and end a
phrase does matter.
rpjazzguitar
> I think it was Dizzy who said he liked to think of a rhythmic idea
> first and then try to fit a phrase or line to that rhythm. It's a
> good way to practice at least part of the time because it makes you
> hear in phrases and it also forces you to play what you are able to
> hear and not just noodle around with sounds the scales might
> suggest.
This post (including the snipped parts) is well said.
The limitation of chord scale theory is that you can use it and still
not be making good music. You have to play ideas that hang together
rhythmically and melodically. Players who are really good at those
things often play lines that do not easily emerge out of chord/scale/
mode relationships.
Paul
>
>
>
> Paul <quiller...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Dec 26, 8:14 am, kentburnside <ksburns...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > As Rick says here, and as Mark Levine says in <Jazz Theory>, think
> > > KEY rather than chord or scale; the descending 2-5-1 progressions
> > > in "Recorda Me" are a great place to work on this (also the bridge
> > > in "Cherokee").
>
> > > Jimmy Bruno has pointed out somewhere that the obsession with
> > > modes/ scales is great for analyzing what's already been
> > > played--for example, on a recording--but not so great for
> > > improvising in the moment.
>
> > Well, I posted: "C Dorian >> Cm, F7, BbMaj7"
>
> > Which implies Bb Major over the whole 2-5-1, and not thinking about
> > modes.
>
> Well, no. Specifying C Dorian suggests you're thinking about modes.
> specifying Bb major would suggest you're thinking about tonal centers.
> :-)
>
> Your questions are stimulating some interesting conversation, not only
> about the "how to" aspect but about elucidating philosophies of playing
> jazz.
>
Well, one side of the NG complains that you think too
much, and the other feels you don't think enough!
LoL! Clearly, there are countless ways to skin
a Jazz cat. But overall, complexity gives you more
options, and you can always simplify.
Why is modal thinking so demonized here? It
has certainly helped me communicate ideas, and
understand some harmonic concepts. It's not
that complicated. It's just a major scale, starting
with different root notes, with funny Greek names
given to each mode. Pretty simple really.
I don't see why you cannot also think in
terms of tonal centers as well....
(God, I hope this doesn't start a Modal-flame war)
:)
Paul
> On 12/26/2010 9:56 PM, Paul wrote:
>
> > On Dec 26, 7:35 am, Rick Stone<rickst...@rickstone.com> wrote:
> >> I don't know, this "Rick Stone" character hopefully doesn't suck at it
> >> either; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSPm3IdLNN8
>
> > You mean you haven't figured out how to keep
> > playing while turning the volume knob?? jk!! haha
>
> > Tough gig....no drummer.....
>
> Hey Paul, I'm playing BOTH pickups, so there are two volume controls and
> it takes a little longer to get both of them right. I'm actually
> starting to use a volume pedal on gigs for that reason, but I was
> traveling light in Italy (just the guitar and a Korg Pandora box and
> using whichever amp the club provided. On my Comins with the single
> floating pickup and volume knob within reach on the pickguard, I'm
> pretty good at riding it (to do fade-ins etc. ala Phil Keagy).
>
> I'm actually fine with playing without a drummer. Unless it's a great
> drummer, I prefer playing duo.
>
I find that there's nothing like a good drummer to keep
everyone together....but no drummer is better than a
bad one.......
:)
Gerry
> There's some Doug McKenzie piano jazz guy on
> Youtube, who does tricks like playing virtually ANYTHING
> for a very short time, and gets away with it as long as
> he resolves to something that makes harmonic sense.....
Hmm. That's always worked pretty well for me...
--
-- Gerry
335
>
> Why is modal thinking so demonized here? It
> has certainly helped me communicate ideas, and
> understand some harmonic concepts. It's not
> that complicated. It's just a major scale, starting
> with different root notes, with funny Greek names
> given to each mode. Pretty simple really.
>
> I don't see why you cannot also think in
> terms of tonal centers as well....
>
> (God, I hope this doesn't start a Modal-flame war)
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
I don't think it's demonized. Maybe a few people do that.
Some guys think in terms of modes and chord scales and some don't.
Others have studied modes intensely to the point where they don't
think about it when they play, but they know it and hear it
intuitively. It takes a lot of practice and experience to get to that
point.
The downside of over emphasizing a highly theoretical approach is you
risk spending a lot of your time over analyzing things to the point
where you may become paralyzed by too much information. Get on the
bandsatnd thinking about which scale to play on which chord and you'll
probably grind your gears.
If you are too caught up in that you risk not developing other things
you need to play well such as developing your ear, or you miss working
on the other components that go into a good solo... rhythm, structure,
motivic development, resolutions etc. You don't necessarily need a
long list of every possible scale to do those things.
Strictly focusing on modes and chords scales won't teach you that
other stuff and it is not meant to. You have to combine learning the
modes and chord scales with intensive practice and application to
tunes to learn the other components in music. Hopefully you have a
lot of time to practice.
Rick Stone
I think that the thing you need to keep in mind about "chord scale
theory" is that it was a device invented by people who ALREADY knew how
to play and they were overlaying it on more organic systems that were
already well in place. They had heard and played these tunes a million
times, knew the melodies and the chords well and already had a developed
a vocabulary for the music. Then they looked at what notes they were
using around the chord tones and started thinking about what scales were
being formed. Four notes in a chord is already MOST of the puzzle, it's
not difficult to figure out which 3 notes go in between those. Of
course, once you start messing around with substitutes and alternate
scales, you've got some additional creative avenues that you can pursue.
But with out the BASIC foundations of the tunes and the music, scales
aren't going to make you sound like a jazz player.
Should you know scales and be totally fluent in them? Absolutely! But
it won't make you a jazz player unless you're REALLY doing all that
other stuff (learning TONS of melodies, licks, phrases, arpeggios, etc.)
listening to and imitating great players, and learning to tell a story
with all of this.
And YES, Dizzy was right on the money. If your rhythms are good, a lot
of other things will fall into place almost automatically!
Rick Stone
> Well, one side of the NG complains that you think too
> much, and the other feels you don't think enough!
>
> LoL! Clearly, there are countless ways to skin
> a Jazz cat. But overall, complexity gives you more
> options, and you can always simplify.
>
> Why is modal thinking so demonized here? It
> has certainly helped me communicate ideas, and
> understand some harmonic concepts. It's not
> that complicated. It's just a major scale, starting
> with different root notes, with funny Greek names
> given to each mode. Pretty simple really.
>
> I don't see why you cannot also think in
> terms of tonal centers as well....
>
> (God, I hope this doesn't start a Modal-flame war)
>
> :)
I don't know about "demonizing" modal playing. I just think that it's
been somewhat overemphasized at the expense of other things.
I also wouldn't stop with the major scale. Ideas derived from the major
and its modes probably only make up at most about 30-50% of what most
jazz improvisors play. You REALLY need to deal with the jazz melodic
minor, harmonic minor, harmonic major (and all of their modes) as well
as the various pentatonics (major, minor 69, dom 9, dom b9, and all of
their modes, etc.), then of course the symmetrical scales; diminished,
whole-tone, augmented, and a few odd-ball curiosities like the
double-harmonic scale (the "Misilou" scale), and some others you might
find along the way.
But when push comes to shove, it's about playing PHRASES which is both a
lot simpler, and a lot more complex than reducing things down to "which
scale should I play on which chord."
And besides, THAT information is EASILY obtainable in a number of books
that ANYONE studying this music should have on the shelf (or better
still on their piano or music stand). Mark Levine's "Jazz Theory Book"
is one of the best and is often sited here, but even the now 35+ year
old "Improvising Jazz" by Jerry Coker would give the original poster
more than he would need in terms of answers and methodology to learning
and practicing jazz tunes (and it's an inexpensive little paperback
http://www.amazon.com/Improvising-Jazz-Fireside-Jerry-Coker/dp/0671628291/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1293474583&sr=8-1
.
Joey Goldstein
>
> But it's certainly true, where you start and end a
> phrase does matter.
>
The thing about targeting 3rds and 7ths in your lines isn't so much a
phrasing issue as it is a coherence issue.
Phrases can start and/or end on any note that makes sense for the phrase.
We target 3rds and 7ths in our lines so that our lines will strongly
reflect the harmony, even if our lines are heard on their own without
any accompaniment.
Bass players tend to target roots and 5ths in their lines.
If you're targeting 3rds and 7ths, then between the two of you the
entire chord is sounded out contrapuntally with just 2 voices.
Even without a bass line, when you target 3rds and 7ths in your lines
the harmony tends to become explicit in the listener's ear.
Your comment earlier about Al Dimeola possessing some incredible ability
to target 3rds and 7ths shows your naivety.
That's just basic musicianship.
AD has lots of incredible stuff going on in his playing, but it's not
his ability to target 3rds and 7ths.
As a matter of fact, the most common way to comp through 7th chords in a
jazz setting involves what are called "shell voicings".
Shell voicings are 7th chords with the 5th omitted, and if you're
playing with a bass player (or even if you're not) you may choose to
omit the root as well.
So shell voicings are also sometimes called "3-7 voicings".
The point being that if you already know how to comp using shell
voicings, then you already know all the places on the fretboard when the
3rds and 7ths of your chords happen to lie.
Here's some grips for shell voicings on Recordame, with the 3rds and
7ths (or 6ths) on the upper two strings;
Am7 - X X 7 X 8 8
Cm7 - X X 10 X 11 11
F7 - X X X 10 10 11
Bbmaj7 - X X 8 X 10 10
Bbm7 - X X 8 X 9 9
Eb7 - X X X 8 8 9
Abmaj7 - X X 6 X 8 8
Abm7 - X X 6 X 7 7
Db7 - X X X 6 6 7
Gbmaj7 - X X 4 X 6 6
Gm7 - X X 5 X 6 6
C7 - X X X 5 5 6
Fmaj7 - X X 3 X 5 5
E7 - X X 2 X 3 4
So, on your 1st string you have the following guide tone line:
C on Am7
Eb on Cm7
Eb on F7
D on Bbmaj7
Db on Bbm7
Db on Eb7
C on Abmaj7
Cb on Abm7
Cb on Db7
Bb on Gbmaj7
Bb on Gm7
Bb on C7
A on Fmaj7
G# on E7 (try G nat too)
Learn to hear that line as a melody in its own rite.
Then start looking for ways to embellish it rhythmically and with
neighbour tones.
With these shell voicing grips we've also isolated another guide tone
line on the 2nd string:
G on Am7
Bb on Cm7
A on F7
Etc.
Learn to hear that line as a melody in its own rite.
Then start looking for ways to embellish it rhythmically and with
neighbour tones.
Then work on ways to use both lines simultaneously.
Try jumping from one line to the other.
Try linking the two lines together with passing tones.
Then work out the shell voicings that place the 3rds and 7ths on strings
2 and 3 and learn to play off of those guide tone lines.
Then do string pairs 3 and 4, 4 and 5 and 5 and 6.
Also work out the 3-7 voicings that use non-adjacent strings for the
3rds and 7ths.
Now you know where all the 3rds and 7ths of the entire tune across the
entire fretboard happen to lie.
As you can see, this has very little to do with the regular
position-playing-oriented scale fingerings and/or arpeggio fingerings.
If you're playing off of position-playing-oriented-fingerings for scales
and/or arpeggios then it's good to work out where all the 3rds and 7ths
are as well. But it's harder to visualize this stuff from a
position-playing perspective.
I.e. the shell voicings approach is easier.
Joey Goldstein
> The limitation of chord scale theory is that you can use it and still
> not be making good music.
That's a limitation of *any* theory or any technique.
That has nothing to do with the usefulness or lack of it of chord-scale
theory.
> You have to play ideas that hang together
> rhythmically and melodically.
The main thing that will make you sound like a jazz player is not your
note choices.
It's the usage of jazz rhythms.
Many players will tell you that jazz line playing is like melodic drumming.
This notion of starting with the rhythm first and finding notes that fit
the rhythm that you want to play is really the ticket if you want your
music to swing.
> Players who are really good at those
> things often play lines that do not easily emerge out of chord/scale/
> mode relationships.
Can you please give me a few examples of lines that work over changes
that seem to defy analysis via chord-scale theory?
I know that there are indeed lines like that out there.
But they are not nearly as common as you seem to be implying.
Many lines that look like they might be unintelligible from a
chord-scale perspective are simply making use of things like chromatic
approach notes into the notes of the scale, or are switching scales
mid-phrase.
Joey Goldstein
>
It's a malaise that seems to be pervading all through jazz ed circles
these days.
I don't really get it either.
To classically trained musicians who have studied medieval modal music
it's a conceptual difference.
That music involved all sorts of ideas, notions, practices, rules, etc.
that contemporary modal music does not.
So they get all bent out of shape when jazzers start talking about modes
because we are generally-speaking ignorant of all of that music.
Jazz guys might object to either or both the modal scale names or the
idea of chord-scale-relationships as a whole.
The main objection seems to be that because the inventors of this music
did not think in terms of these ideas then we shouldn't think that way
either.
Of course there's some merit to this.
If you want to learn to play the types of jazz that those guys played
then learning to play the way that they learned to play makes sense.
The chord-scale concept came out of the needs of jazz educators in the
60s looking for a way to codify and teach the music that came before them.
It's an abstract approach to note choice over a pre-determined
progression of chords.
Some people don't do well with abstract thought.
My attitude is that if the educational tools of today were available in
the 20s, 30s 40s and 50s then those guys would have been foolish to
ignore it all.
rpjazzguitar
> Can you please give me a few examples of lines that work over changes
> that seem to defy analysis via chord-scale theory?
No. Because that's not what I said. What I said is that some play
lines that do not emerge easily from chord scale theory. I'm confident
that there will often be a sensible post-hoc explanation of why they
sounded good. But, were they created with those ideas consciously in
mind? Maybe. Clearly they are the product of a developed ear. Theory
is certainly useful in the process of developing one's ear.
The phrases I like are, invariably, rhythmically strong and melodic.
My point is that a player who is strong melodically and rhythmically
will find himself with a great deal of flexibility harmonically. Andre
Bush, for example, writes (and plays) this way.
Joey Goldstein
>>
>> Can you please give me a few examples of lines that work over changes
>> that seem to defy analysis via chord-scale theory?
>
> No. Because that's not what I said.
Sorry. That's what I thought you were saying by implication.
My bad.
> What I said is that some play
> lines that do not emerge easily from chord scale theory.
The whole point of the development of chord-scale theory was to explain
stuff that had been created prior to its invention.
> I'm confident
> that there will often be a sensible post-hoc explanation of why they
> sounded good.
Sure.
But I'm not talking about just any sensible post-hoc explanation.
I'm talking about an explanation based on the chord-scale relationships
involved.
There aren't many lines that can't be "explained" along the lines of
chord-scale-relationships.
That's because there's always a chord-scale-relationship active on some
level, assuming that the music has chords and melodies that harmonize
with those chords.
> But, were they created with those ideas consciously in
> mind?
If the theory is any good then that qualification should be irrelevant.
Were Bach and Beethoven writing with Piston's rules and analysis methods
in mind?
Of course not.
Does that make Piston's work irrelevant?
I don't think so.
Can we not analyse Bach and Beethoven using Piston's methods anyway?
Of course we can.
His methods were designed for that very purpose.
> Maybe. Clearly they are the product of a developed ear. Theory
> is certainly useful in the process of developing one's ear.
>
> The phrases I like are, invariably, rhythmically strong and melodic.
> My point is that a player who is strong melodically and rhythmically
> will find himself with a great deal of flexibility harmonically. Andre
> Bush, for example, writes (and plays) this way.
Paul K
>>
>
> Well, one side of the NG complains that you think too
> much, and the other feels you don't think enough!
>
> LoL! Clearly, there are countless ways to skin
> a Jazz cat. But overall, complexity gives you more
> options, and you can always simplify.
>
> Why is modal thinking so demonized here? It
> has certainly helped me communicate ideas, and
> understand some harmonic concepts. It's not
> that complicated. It's just a major scale, starting
> with different root notes, with funny Greek names
> given to each mode. Pretty simple really.
Paul, As I read this thread I dont see that modal thinking is being
demonized, but rather that players with more experience than you are
giving you advice on other things to think about which are more likely
to help you move forward.
For example, when you suggest playing Cdorian over Cm F7 Bbmaj it
points to where you are as an jazz improvisor, a stage many of us went
through early on and a standard mark of a beginner (for example it
doesnt address the problem with playing a 4th on a Maj chord, nor does
it address the resolution implied by a II-V-I) Virtually every response
in this thread was "OK, now that you can find scales with no "wrong"
notes, then you should next try to (focus on 3rd and 7ths, try a tritone
sub on the V, etc)"
As far as demonizing modes, or chord/scale, etc, my interpretation is
that the goal of most hobby jazz players is to be able to blow in a
bebop inspired style convincingly on "great american songbook" type
tunes. Modes and chord-scale approaches are useful to know, but are
probably less important (and hence more frequently dismissed) for this
goal than having available a bag of II-V-I and blues licks (notes and
rhythms) culled from the standard bebop language. Modes and chord/scale
thinking becomes important as you move towards more advanced improvisation.
--
Paul K
http://www.soundclick.com/paulkirk
http://www.youtube.com/user/fibrationboy
http://mypage.iu.edu/~pkirk/
kentburnside
Joey,
Can you clarify this "malaise" comment a bit? Jazz ed circles seem to
be one of those settings where modes are actually studied the most
exhaustively.
Kent Burnside
Joey Goldstein
I'd rather not. lol
> Jazz ed circles seem to
> be one of those settings where modes are actually studied the most
> exhaustively.
Let me change it then to circles where jazz ed is discussed.
Like here.
> Kent Burnside
rpjazzguitar
> > But I'm certainly
> > not thinking like Al Di Meola, where he's supposedly
> > for each chord, so he knows where to end a phrase!
>
One way to think about this is that you need to know all the notes in
the chords you're using and every place they exist on the guitar.
Then, in playing a tune, it's useful to know which notes stay the same
from one chord to the next and which ones change. That's useful in
comping, because it's a key to voice leading your part. It's also
useful in soloing, if you want to think about it in this way.
Say, for example, you're playing Cmaj7 to C7. You might think C Ionian
to C mixolydian. That's useful (and second nature to experienced
players). You will avoid clams if you do it that way.
You might also want to think that the difference between Cmaj7 and C7
is that the B drops to Bb. If you want to really clearly outline the
change in your line, you'll want to sound those two notes at the right
times.
That's a very simple example, But, to get your comping really smooth,
it's very helpful to know which notes stay the same and which notes
change. And, this goes beyond 3rds and 7ths. If you're playing music
with, for example, more extensions on the chords, you might choose to
be doing the "which note changed" thing on the extensions of the
chords.
To summarize this: it can be very useful to know all the notes in the
chords you're playing as well as the underlying scales or modes. And,
in learning a tune, it can be very useful to pay careful attention to
the moving voices. The 3rd and 7th movement in the cycle of fifths is
a great example of this, but it is not the only one.
David J. Littleboy
That's my take here, too. The chord/scale stuff, though, (as Joey pointed
out) provides an after-the-fact explanation for those bop and blues phrases,
and that makes it easier to learn, remember, and understand those phrases.
--
David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
Paul
> On Dec 27, 8:19 pm, rpjazzguitar <rpjazzgui...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Dec 26, 7:56 pm, mylesgtr <myles...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > But I'm certainly
> > > > not thinking like Al Di Meola, where he's supposedly
> > > > consciously aware of where all the 3rds and 7ths are
> > > > for each chord, so he knows where to end a phrase!
>
> magical abilities to find a chord tone. neat.
I don't think Al Di Meola is "magical". In fact, his music
is kinda boring to me. BUT, he's got tons of pure technique,
which is good for any guitarist. You can use the 3rds and
7ths (and other chord tones) in your lines without being
consciously aware of it.
Paul
> .
I have Coker's book. It's good from an overall perspective, but
there's
nothing about tritone substitutions, Lydian b7, or the Altered scale
(the
copyright was 1964).
You cannot ask a book for specific advice on a particular
song. You can only get that from someone more experienced or
knowledgeable than you. I'm one of those people that learns best by
doing, and specific songs are the best examples, because it's the
actual work, and not some dry scale exercise.
Most people are afraid to ask questions, for fear it
will make them look stupid. Stupid would be NOT
to ask any questions you may have. I am not stupid, I just
wanna pick all your brains to see how it's done, and
other people certainly have similar questions, but didn't
have the balls to ask.
Do you think the drummer at a jam session wants to
listen to the guitarist and pianist talk theory the whole
session? Hell no!
Let's admit that the Jazz audience, and Jazz performers,
ain't getting any younger. So if we wanna see Jazz
nice and healthy for the coming decades, we'd best
learn from each other......
thomas
> On Dec 27, 8:19 pm, rpjazzguitar <rpjazzgui...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> > > > But I'm certainly
> > > > not thinking like Al Di Meola, where he's supposedly
> > > > consciously aware of where all the 3rds and 7ths are
> > > > for each chord, so he knows where to end a phrase!
>
> magical abilities to find a chord tone. neat.
But...did you know that Tony D taught DimeOla that trick?
thomas
>
> Most people are afraid to ask questions, for fear it
> will make them look stupid. Stupid would be NOT
> to ask any questions you may have. I am not stupid, I just
> wanna pick all your brains to see how it's done, and
> other people certainly have similar questions, but didn't
> have the balls to ask.
Check out this from Paul K:
<As far as demonizing modes, or chord/scale, etc, my interpretation
is
that the goal of most hobby jazz players is to be able to blow in a
bebop inspired style convincingly on "great american songbook" type
tunes. Modes and chord-scale approaches are useful to know, but are
probably less important (and hence more frequently dismissed) for
this
goal than having available a bag of II-V-I and blues licks (notes and
rhythms) culled from the standard bebop language.>
Yes, very important observation.
<Modes and chord/scale
thinking becomes important as you move towards more advanced
improvisation.>
I think by "advanced improv", he doesn't mean in terms of ability;
instead he is referring to sounds and approaches developed after the
post-bebop era.
Paul
> > I don't think Al Di Meola is "magical". In fact, his music
> > is kinda boring to me. BUT, he's got tons of pure technique,
> > which is good for any guitarist. You can use the 3rds and
> > 7ths (and other chord tones) in your lines without being
> > consciously aware of it.
>
> isn't something special. it's the foundation everything else is built
> upon.
But you can just play lines that sound good, without
thinking about 3rds and 7ths (or other chord tones), and
then only later you realize what you are doing, from a
theory point of view.
It's good to be more aware of it, yes. I'm gonna work
on it. Bill Evans said that at first, he only played simple
lines using chord tones only, which I believe Joey
mentioned in a previous thread. The root of the next
chord as you hit the chord is always a cool sounding
target tone to end on, especially after a really squirrelly lick.
Paul
I'm familiar with the Altered scale over the dominant
7s, but the chords go by so fast, i wanted to keep things
simple....but I'm practicing it now.
> As far as demonizing modes, or chord/scale, etc, my interpretation is
> that the goal of most hobby jazz players is to be able to blow in a
> bebop inspired style convincingly on "great american songbook" type
> tunes. Modes and chord-scale approaches are useful to know, but are
> probably less important (and hence more frequently dismissed) for this
> goal than having available a bag of II-V-I and blues licks (notes and
> rhythms) culled from the standard bebop language. Modes and chord/scale
> thinking becomes important as you move towards more advanced improvisation.
>
Do NOT use the "H" word, PLEASE!!!
Use the term, "derailed professional"!!!!
;)
Paul K
Buy the Joe Pass guitar book (the one written with bill thrasher).
Everything one needs to get going is in that book.
>
>> As far as demonizing modes, or chord/scale, etc, my interpretation is
>> that the goal of most hobby jazz players is to be able to blow in a
>> bebop inspired style convincingly on "great american songbook" type
>> tunes. Modes and chord-scale approaches are useful to know, but are
>> probably less important (and hence more frequently dismissed) for this
>> goal than having available a bag of II-V-I and blues licks (notes and
>> rhythms) culled from the standard bebop language. Modes and chord/scale
>> thinking becomes important as you move towards more advanced improvisation.
>>
>
> Do NOT use the "H" word, PLEASE!!!
>
> Use the term, "derailed professional"!!!!
>
> ;)
>
>
>
Bryce
Arpeggios and tetradic chord voicings enable one to see the hidden
harmony on the guitar much like anyone can plainly see on the piano. I
play mostly open voicings and all close form arpeggios. This is one
way to follow the leading tones as in counterpoint and to play lines
over them in arpeggios. The music theory is fun but my ear tells me
where to put the notes and I don't care if the theory behind it is
correct or not at that point. For improv I memorize the chord changes
and fill in the arpeggios with chord-scale tones as the last part of
the mental aspect.
Bryce
Bryce
Shell voicings: another master-post ! Thank you.
Bryce
Bryce
> .
>
> --
> Musically Yours,
> Rick Stone
> Website:http://www.rickstone.com
> Recordings:http://www.cdbaby.com/all/jazzand
> Videos:http://www.youtube.com/user/jazzand
> Myspace:http://www.myspace.com/rickstonemusic
> EPK:http://www.sonicbids.com/rickstone
Great post Rick. Thank you for sharing. I appreciate posts that enrich
my understanding of things as your post has.
>>I don't know about "demonizing" modal playing. I just think that it's
>>been somewhat overemphasized at the expense of other things.
Yea, this is an old issue here. Joey tends to explain it very well all
the time IMO. For me modal thinking is fine on a model piece of music,
as are re-tunings etc. Otherwise, it just seems like an labeling issue
adding a layer of complexity. For dorian, I say: minor 7th. For
MIxolydian, I say dominant 7th. I can pretty much cross out all of the
Greek names in any music book and put modern labels in place. For me
the modern names have more meaning. To that end I see little value in
modal labels. If Joey likes it then there is something there that I'm
missing. Bu† I have not found it yet.
Bryce
Paul
I agree. Some people erroneously thought that I was
worshiping Al Di Meola just because he was conscious of his
3rds and 7ths. My point was that you can find great licks without
thinking about all that.
Theory is ALWAYS secondary to your ear.
Paul
> > I agree. Some people erroneously thought that I was
> > worshiping Al Di Meola just because he was conscious of his
> > 3rds and 7ths.
>
> seemed to be very, very confused about a lot of things and spinning
> your wheels.
I don't need help from people like you who are
more confused than me....
Keep making noise on yer guitar....
Tim McNamara
<f3a60e54-e96e-4653...@f21g2000prn.googlegroups.com>,
Paul <quill...@gmail.com> wrote:
Uh, dude? You're the one who asked. You might be forgetting that.
Myles (and others) have been pointing out that there are other
philosophies to playing jazz than the "what scale goes over what chord"
approach you're asking about. If you don't want to hear other opinions,
then this is the wrong place to ask. Chord-scale theory is only one
approach.
Given that Myles is a professional jazz guitarist with years of training
and experience behind him, the odds are good that he is less confused
than you about how to play this stuff. He wrote you some very, very
good advice which you ignore or dismiss to your disadvantage.
> Keep making noise on yer guitar....
That just makes you look like an ass.
--
"It is not unfrequent to hear men declaim loudly upon liberty, who, if we may
judge by the whole tenor of their actions, mean nothing else by it but their
own liberty ‹ to oppress without control or the restraint of laws all who
are poorer or weaker than themselves." Samuel Adams
Graham
website - anyone who thinks you are 'confused' and 'making noise'
should read that!
I note the title of this thread is 'solo scales and melody'. Seems to
me the 'melody' angle got little attention! My advice (for what it's
worth!) to the OP would be: don't get so hung up on scales, of course
learn the essential ones, but surely it's melodic phrases you are
supposed to be improvising in jazz, when all's said and done.
As a starting point I would play through all the chord tones / guide
tones in this tune, then listen to what Joe Henderson and Kenny Dorham
played on this tune, then try and copy some of their phrases. Then
change them a bit. Then try and make up similar phrases of your own.
And so on, forever. It's a lot more fun than thinking about scales
all day.
But that's just my opinion.
Graham
Joe Giglio
> So far I'm using:
>
> A HM or A Dorian >> Am
> C Dorian >> Cm, F7, BbMaj7
> Bb Dorian >> Bbm7, Eb7, AbMaj7
> Ab Dorian >> Abm7, Db7, GbMaj7
> G Dorian >> Gm7, C7
> E Altered or A HM >> FMaj7, E7#9
>
> Again, if anyone can suggest other scale
> options, please do.
>
> And I've noticed that very few guitarists
> will try this saxophone melody on Youtube.
> My theory is because it's not a very
> natural line to play on guitar, and most
> guitarists don't sight read very well,
> and mainly want to wail over changes.
>
> The only guitarist who actually plays
> the head melody is this Victor Kamper
> fella:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EI0bUVLuqL8
>
> He plays very smoothly on both
> the melody and the solo.
>
> Do you all agree that he's fingering this melody
> the "correct" or easiest way? In particular,
> the A, B, A in the first part of the 4th measure,
> he plays the A on the second string, 10th fret.
> I'm aware that it looks easier, because you are
> already in the 8th fret position, but it's difficult to
> just barre the 1st and 2nd strings at the 10th
> fret, because the G on the 2nd string comes
> very quickly afterwards.
>
> I found pretty much alternate picking to be
> best....
here's a few...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_2dySMeFbs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMGujglC1pM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9TLrEhd4tM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6tbV_bXjLQ&feature=related
tom walls
> there are plenty of great players who hang out on this
> newsgroup who don't need to pay attention to me (bruno, bailey, stone,
> adler, goldstein, decaprio, etc), but those who come here as confused
> beginners seeking information should probably try to avoid burning
> bridges with people who are actually out there doing it in any
> capacity.
So good I had to hear it twice.
Joe Giglio
> > here's a few...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_2dySMeFbshttp://www.youtube.com/watc...
>
> Joe...that's "Rcrdme"...we're talking about Recordame....totally
> different tune. :)
>
> Hope the holidays have been good to you.
oooooops!
back atcha dude-lettuce us jam soon man...
Rick Stone
> Thanks Graham. Peter is a really great guy in addition to being one
> of the heaviest players on the planet. I've learned a lot from him
> and it's an honor to follow him at Smoke every week of the year. I've
> discussed all this stuff with him in depth.
Hey Myles, Peter's a great guy and a great player, but usenet is a
quirky thing. I mean any idiot can say anything right? If you were
here in the 90s, you might remember one particular idiot who used to
routinely dis all the great young straight-ahead players and I remember
him particularly laying into Peter Bernstein and Russell Malone. Of
course, he was a just some a-hole who couldn't play his way out of a
paper bag (as was told to me in a private email by another respected
poster to this group who this jerk had taken some lessons with). All I
can say is, learn to use your "kill file." It's made my life ever so
much more pleasant. :-)
I've got to get up to one of your Smoke gigs soon. I'm mostly off from
teaching for about 4 more weeks. Going into Brorby's studio to make a
new CD (finally) this Monday and Tuesday, but after that I'll have some
time. Let's get together!
> Exactly...thankfully a few people had the good judgement to call
> attention to what is happening in the melody and point out that it
> gives a very good clue as to what to play on the tune as a starting
> point. Whether we're talking about Henderson tunes or Tin Pan Alley,
> the people who wrote these songs were masters. It's a good idea to
> look at the devices they used in writing their compositions for clues
> as to the types of sounds they had in mind for the tune. Not to say
> you can't play harmonic minor over the first bar of a tune like this
> or invitation, but you'd better be aware you are disregarding the
> melody when you do so...and may be clashing with the chord player who
> could be voicing with the melody in mind which did not come from
> harmonic minor no matter how you look at it.
You know me, I tell all my students "Learn the melody, learn the melody,
learn the melody, and did I remember to tell you to learn the melody?"
Rick Stone
> thanks for the kind words tim, but this guy isn't seriously interested
> in learning... the ironic thing is, i have said some things in rmmgj
> from time to time that were almost direct quotes from guys i have
> studied with or had conversations with, and been ignored or dissed. i
> don't claim to be a great player, but i have spent a lot of time
> around guys like peter bernstein, jonathan kreisberg, steve cardenas
> and others. i have dropped hints in this newsgroup that were given to
> me directly by bernstein, metheny, and rodney jones (these are just
> the instances i can recall) and had their ideas dismissed by the
> ignorant. there are plenty of great players who hang out on this
> newsgroup who don't need to pay attention to me (bruno, bailey, stone,
> adler, goldstein, decaprio, etc), but those who come here as confused
> beginners seeking information should probably try to avoid burning
> bridges with people who are actually out there doing it in any
> capacity.
Hey Myles, thanks for thinking of me in such great company :-)
I think the people who are "confused beginners" are destined to become
confused life-long amateur noodlers because they often don't want to
listen to good advice when it's given to them.
This same guy said there were no guitarists playing "Recordame" on
Youtube, so I posted a link to one of my clips of the tune, to which he
said some mildly dismissive stuff, and I'm thinking WTF? Years ago Ted
Dunbar and I were talking about teaching and he told me "don't cast your
pearls before swine." Guess the Zen masters who would make their
would-be followers wait for days at their door before they'd even
acknowledge them had a good screening process!
Tim McNamara
Rick Stone <rick...@rickstone.com> wrote:
> On 12/30/2010 5:04 AM, mylesgtr wrote:
> > thanks for the kind words tim, but this guy isn't seriously
> > interested in learning... the ironic thing is, i have said some
> > things in rmmgj from time to time that were almost direct quotes
> > from guys i have studied with or had conversations with, and been
> > ignored or dissed. i don't claim to be a great player, but i have
> > spent a lot of time around guys like peter bernstein, jonathan
> > kreisberg, steve cardenas and others. i have dropped hints in this
> > newsgroup that were given to me directly by bernstein, metheny, and
> > rodney jones (these are just the instances i can recall) and had
> > their ideas dismissed by the ignorant. there are plenty of great
> > players who hang out on this newsgroup who don't need to pay
> > attention to me (bruno, bailey, stone, adler, goldstein, decaprio,
> > etc), but those who come here as confused beginners seeking
> > information should probably try to avoid burning bridges with
> > people who are actually out there doing it in any capacity.
>
> Hey Myles, thanks for thinking of me in such great company :-)
>
> I think the people who are "confused beginners" are destined to
> become confused life-long amateur noodlers because they often don't
> want to listen to good advice when it's given to them.
LOL! (And: ouch! It's kind of ike looking in a mirror).
> This same guy said there were no guitarists playing "Recordame" on
> Youtube, so I posted a link to one of my clips of the tune, to which
> he said some mildly dismissive stuff, and I'm thinking WTF? Years ago
> Ted Dunbar and I were talking about teaching and he told me "don't
> cast your pearls before swine." Guess the Zen masters who would make
> their would-be followers wait for days at their door before they'd
> even acknowledge them had a good screening process!
The teacher can only present the information, it is the responsibility
of the student to learn and integrate the material.
Rick Stone
> In article<ifi6q3$a6q$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Rick Stone<rick...@rickstone.com> wrote:
>
>> On 12/30/2010 5:04 AM, mylesgtr wrote:
>>> thanks for the kind words tim, but this guy isn't seriously
>>> interested in learning... the ironic thing is, i have said some
>>> things in rmmgj from time to time that were almost direct quotes
>>> from guys i have studied with or had conversations with, and been
>>> ignored or dissed. i don't claim to be a great player, but i have
>>> spent a lot of time around guys like peter bernstein, jonathan
>>> kreisberg, steve cardenas and others. i have dropped hints in this
>>> newsgroup that were given to me directly by bernstein, metheny, and
>>> rodney jones (these are just the instances i can recall) and had
>>> their ideas dismissed by the ignorant. there are plenty of great
>>> players who hang out on this newsgroup who don't need to pay
>>> attention to me (bruno, bailey, stone, adler, goldstein, decaprio,
>>> etc), but those who come here as confused beginners seeking
>>> information should probably try to avoid burning bridges with
>>> people who are actually out there doing it in any capacity.
>>
>> Hey Myles, thanks for thinking of me in such great company :-)
>>
>> I think the people who are "confused beginners" are destined to
>> become confused life-long amateur noodlers because they often don't
>> want to listen to good advice when it's given to them.
>
> LOL! (And: ouch! It's kind of ike looking in a mirror).
Sorry Tim, it wasn't directed at you though. :-)
>> This same guy said there were no guitarists playing "Recordame" on
>> Youtube, so I posted a link to one of my clips of the tune, to which
>> he said some mildly dismissive stuff, and I'm thinking WTF? Years ago
>> Ted Dunbar and I were talking about teaching and he told me "don't
>> cast your pearls before swine." Guess the Zen masters who would make
>> their would-be followers wait for days at their door before they'd
>> even acknowledge them had a good screening process!
>
> The teacher can only present the information, it is the responsibility
> of the student to learn and integrate the material.
--
Tim McNamara
Rick Stone <rick...@rickstone.com> wrote:
Heh! Sometimes stuff finds its mark unintentionally. "Confused amateur
noodler" might be my new sig...
> >> This same guy said there were no guitarists playing "Recordame" on
> >> Youtube, so I posted a link to one of my clips of the tune, to
> >> which he said some mildly dismissive stuff, and I'm thinking WTF?
> >> Years ago Ted Dunbar and I were talking about teaching and he told
> >> me "don't cast your pearls before swine." Guess the Zen masters
> >> who would make their would-be followers wait for days at their
> >> door before they'd even acknowledge them had a good screening
> >> process!
> >
> > The teacher can only present the information, it is the
> > responsibility of the student to learn and integrate the material.
--
Joey Goldstein
>> Hey Myles that's a nice quote from Peter Bernstein you have on your
>> website - anyone who thinks you are 'confused' and 'making noise'
>> should read that!
>
> of the heaviest players on the planet. I've learned a lot from him
> and it's an honor to follow him at Smoke every week of the year. I've
> discussed all this stuff with him in depth.
>
>> me the 'melody' angle got little attention!
>
> attention to what is happening in the melody and point out that it
> gives a very good clue as to what to play on the tune as a starting
> point. Whether we're talking about Henderson tunes or Tin Pan Alley,
> the people who wrote these songs were masters. It's a good idea to
> look at the devices they used in writing their compositions for clues
> as to the types of sounds they had in mind for the tune. Not to say
> you can't play harmonic minor over the first bar of a tune like this
> or invitation, but you'd better be aware you are disregarding the
> melody when you do so...and may be clashing with the chord player who
> could be voicing with the melody in mind which did not come from
> harmonic minor no matter how you look at it.
>
> the lines between modal and vertical thinking by harmonizing these
> scales. If you choose to use A melodic minor over the first chord,
> you might want to play off of Cmajor7+5 for example which is derived
> from A melodic minor (if that is how you think). I usually don't
> mention that type of thing b/c Joey is good at listing off all the
> options and permutations for things like that (which he may have
> already done...I haven't read every post in the thread).
Actually, in this thread I've stuck to just the basic major scales and
modes of major scales (except for the E7 chord).
It didn't seem to me like the OP was ready for a bunch of other
suggestions. But that hasn't stopped everybody else with piling on all
the altered scales etc.
Bryce
Please rank me as a "confused beginner." You've offered some of the
best advice in this thread that I've ever seen here at RMMGJ. Playing
the ii-V7-I to death and exploring all of the harmonies and variations
of associated scales, arpeggios, voicings, is the best advice I've
ever heard in regard to playing. Playing jazz is only mastered by
genius. For the rest of us we can only approach this goal. Thanks for
sharing the advice. Your youTube Recordeme is killer !!! I am humbled
by your gifts of pearls. Thanks Rick.
Bryce
Rick Stone
> Please rank me as a "confused beginner." You've offered some of the
> best advice in this thread that I've ever seen here at RMMGJ. Playing
> the ii-V7-I to death and exploring all of the harmonies and variations
> of associated scales, arpeggios, voicings, is the best advice I've
> ever heard in regard to playing. Playing jazz is only mastered by
> genius. For the rest of us we can only approach this goal. Thanks for
> sharing the advice. Your youTube Recordeme is killer !!! I am humbled
> by your gifts of pearls. Thanks Rick.
>
> Bryce
Bryce,
Thanks for the kudos. And if by "genius" you mean spending MANY hours
EVERY DAY for MANY years, then I'd agree with you. Other than that, and
maybe this crazy desire that I have to do pretty much nothing but that
with life and time on planet earth, I don't think I've got anything else
than anybody doesn't have or can't get.
Ted Dunbar told me once that "the only really important thing was to
have a BURNING DESIRE to play this music." And I pretty much believe
that. Why else would we do this?
Mark Kleinhaut
>
> Ted Dunbar told me once that "the only really important thing was to
> have a BURNING DESIRE to play this music." And I pretty much believe
> that. Why else would we do this?
>
hungry for it".
TD
> In article <ifib2b$qa...@news.eternal-september.org>,> > > In article<ifi6q3$a6...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > > Rick Stone<rickst...@rickstone.com> wrote:
> are poorer or weaker than themselves." Samuel Adams
I'd almost bet that if an alien being that just arrived on earth, and
happened upon this particular thread, might just come to the
conclusion that even the deaf can teach themselves jazz improvisation.
-TD