What Scales Do you Use Over Black Orpheus?
Paul
In the original key of Aminor (Real Book), I use A harmonic minor
(or Blues scale,
with b5 note) until we get to most of the Dminors, where I switch to A
Aeolian.
Then D harmonic minor for the diminished C# and A7b9, as well as
the Em7b5
to A7b9 section, and the 2 Dm bars afterwards.
So I don't consciously think about every chord change, but I
certainly alter
my phasing, depending on which chord I'm on, playing the scale to the
chord.
I get good results with this, but I'm sure there are more complex
ways to
think about soloing over this progression.
I'm more of a play by ear musician, but I'd like to know any
additionally
tips from the more seasoned pros out there.
Thanks in advance.....
TD
I do not think that is the best way to go. We have had a zillion
discussions on this (maybe not the same tune, but in "theory" we would
be "playing the same ole tune"). Because, if you think in little "two-
by-four" scale fragments, that is how you will sound in actual flight.
What I would recommend of what little I have gathered empirically from
your question is to study the scales you mentioned against each chord
as a "vagrant" chords (away from the tune and the surrounding changes)
so your ears can become familiar with how the chosen criterion handles
each isolated change. Thinking that there is one scale only per chord,
of course is foolish and I am not saying you are guilty of this, but
some readers here may construe it as thee only way to do things. After
a while, you will hear and feel how the orders of notes respond to
each isolated change both melodically and harmonically. But responding
to the macrocosm (the chords as a progression where a melody is also
part of the picture) is a while other ball of wax.
As an aside, by utilizing D harm. min. as your source scale for A7alt,
you are creating a more "gypsy" type mood automatically. All well and
good, but don't do it because you *have to*. Do it because the overall
mood of the improvisation at hand calls for it (or fits it). That is
like a player who has to slur because his picking chops are weak and
not simply because the music calls for it. On A7, if you are to use D
hm, and later compelled to utilize C#dim scale and Bb mm scales ad
infinitum into the Ozone, then you may as well revisit good ole Dmajor
scale. And when you do, try to realize where A7 wants to go...tends to
go (not just to minor and not just to major as Dmajor scale obviously
infers, but dominant/D7 and to any IV chord in general; and ready for
this??: to Bmajor7 as a backdoor cadence). Learn to draw your thinking
from these tendencies. Utilize the possible resolution chords (where 7
might go if it had a mind of it's own out side of Bonfa's tune) as new
found criteria and draw your scale fragments from a much broader
spectrum.
E-7b5 begs for F# a good deal of the time. Gmm would be a broader
choice than D hm just on its own merit let alone what can be done via
the cyclic network of scale resultants I am hinting at for you. The
Chromatic scale should be your source scale in the end. The non-
diatonic notes in respect to your chosen tonal center at hand should
be weighed and examined as to how they act as approach notes into the
principle and ornamental tones of each chord change. And still, you
will not be totally fulfilled. I have mentioned this before, "Modes
are OK to utilize, but they do not teach about the connecting tissue."
You learn this in an empirical fashion via the scales you already
mentioned, many more, trying hard to 'tell a story' within your
improvised line, developing good form in your lines (difficult when
and if you ONLY think about one scale per chord and sewing them all
together as the changes fly by) and more importantly, copping stuff
off recordings.
Go back to the post-source players like Bird and Bud Powell for
openers in a two-fold manner: A start and an ear opener. It is never
one thing or one way. But a lot of the head bunking into walls comes
from ignoring the listening and stealing.
So, yea man, you can use the scales you cite.
-TD
Keith Freeman
notes and _add one non-chord note at a time_ to experience the effect.
One non-chord note may then suggest another and so on...
-Keith
Clips, Portable Changes, tips etc.: www.keithfreemantrio.nl
e-mail: info AT keithfreemantrio DOT nl
Paul
If creating a more gypsy sound brings me closer to Django, all
the
better!
So the Em7b5 becomes the Locrian(#2) of the Gmm here:
http://guitar.ricmedia.com/Scales/Melodic-minor/
Ok, so I road tested this, and the ascending Gmm sounds good
over the beginning of the Em7b5, but the Eb note (flatted 6th) of the
descending
Gmm sounded weird, so I went back to the D hm on descending runs, and
that
sounds better because it leads into the natural 3rd of the A7b9.
Also, the
Dhm shares the same flatted 6th note of the descending Gmm!
I'm sure this is old news for you guys, but it's wild shit for
me!
And Em7b5 is also the Altered tone of the Fmm, which also works
too,
but in a different way. Is this mode used less?
Keith Freeman
descending, so there is no b6.
TD
Thanks Keith. We might salvage the rest of my post for others.
-TD
Paul
I do have a classical theory background, but I didn't know
modern jazz
doesn't use this often. It still sounds cool changing the scale mid
chord,
though.
Joey Goldstein
A section
Am / / / |Bm7b5 / E7 / |Am / / / |Bm7b5 / E7 / |
Am / / / |Dm7 / G7 / |Cmaj7 / / / |A7b9 / / / |
Dm7 / / / |G7 / / / |Cmaj7 / / / |Fmaj7 / / / |
Bm7b5 / / / |E7 / / / |Am / / / |Bm7b5 / E7 / ||
B section
Am / / / |Bm7b5 / E7 / |Am / / / |Bm7b5 / E7 / |
Em7b5 / / / |A7b9 / / / |Dm / A7b9 / |Dm / / / |
Dm / Dm7/C / |Bm7b5 / E7 / |Am / Am7/G / |Fmaj7 / / / |
Bm7b5 / / / |E7 / / / |Am / / / |(Bm7b5 / E7b9 / )||
On all the Am, Am7 and Bm7b5 chords I use A natural minor, aka C major,
as my default scale choice.
Many of the am instances might also sound good with A dorian, A mel min
or A harm min.
On all the E7 chords my first choice would be A harm min starting on E,
aka E mixolydian b2b6. Be careful with the a nat on this chord though.
I'd probably throw in a G nat (#9) as well every once in a while. I
think you'll find that whenever a b9 is appropriate on a dom7 chord the
#9 will also sound pretty strong.
I might also use the E altered dominant scale which is like F mel min
starting on E.
You might also get some mileage out of the 2nd mode of A harmonic minor
over the Bm7b5 chords, but if you're like me the G# won't sound as
strong as the G nat.
So, you could use A harm min over all 3 chords, but I wouldn't.
Another option is to use A nat min over the E7 as well, which means
you'd be using that one scale over all three chords. You still have to
be careful with the A nat on E7 though.
Dm7 G7 C Fmaj7: Use the C major scale.
On the Dm chords that are preceded by A7 you might want to use D nat min
or D ham min for a few beats at first and then slip into D dorian (i.e.
Cmaj from D).
A7b9 : Use A mix b2b2 (D harm min from A). Try some C naturals too. If
you omit the C3 then it's just like using the c maj scale over this
chord too.Also try A altered dominant, aka Bb mel min from A.
Em7b5: Use E locrian, aka F maj from E.
That's it.
The absolute simplest approach is to just use C major over the entire A
section and all but the 5th through 8th bars of the B section.
On bars 5 through 8 of B use the F major scale.
--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
<http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/AudioClips/audio.htm>
joegold AT primus DOT ca
Tim McNamara
<27cccc67-efa4-4807...@s4g2000yql.googlegroups.com>,
Paul <quill...@gmail.com> wrote:
Get a copy of Mark Levine's jazz theory book. It will clarify a lot of
this stuff for you, is well laid out and easy to follow with excellent
examples over chords and melodies from real jazz tunes.
http://www.amazon.com/Jazz-Theory-Book-Mark-Levine/dp/1883217040
--
That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, Bingo.
Gerry
> Ok, so I road tested this, and the ascending Gmm sounds good
> over the beginning of the Em7b5, but the Eb note (flatted 6th) of the
> descending Gmm sounded weird
So don't flat the sixth. Problem solved!
That's the problem I developed while trying to keep various scales
entering and exiting all the time. It took my mind off this chord here
going to that chord over there with some melodic stuff happening.
Just only play the notes you like and disregard the others!
--
-- Gerry
TD
Even bigger problem relying strictly upon modes.
-TD
gco...@verizon.net
wrote:
On A7, if you are to use D
>hm, and later compelled to utilize C#dim scale and Bb mm scales ad
>infinitum into the Ozone, then you may as well revisit good ole Dmajor
>scale. And when you do, try to realize where A7 wants to go...tends to
>go (not just to minor and not just to major as Dmajor scale obviously
>infers, but dominant/D7 and to any IV chord in general; and ready for
>this??: to Bmajor7 as a backdoor cadence).
TD,
Could you go a bit more into your thinking re BM7 as a "backdoor
cadence?" D7 resolving to BM7? I'm not quite following this.
Fred
Paul
Play the notes that sound good. Always good advice.....
TD
> On Fri, 29 Oct 2010 07:45:34 -0700 (PDT), TD <tonydecap...@gmail.com>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Not D7; A7 into Bmaj7.
-TD
Paul
Wow. Great tips. That G nat (#9) adds a nice minor/major
ambiguity to the E7s.
The E altered dominant scale (F mel min
starting on E) sounds killer too, and also includes the G nat. And
it works over both the E7b9 and the Em7b5 due to the minor/major
ambiguity. The locrian works well too.
It's much more interesting than always just playing the D hm
over the
Em7b5, as I'm not always suggesting a full diminished chord, and
leaving it half diminished.
I like the C naturals over the A7b9. Minor/major ambiguity
once
again (one of the secrets of the jazz sound?).
Your solo over Sandy's Eyes was nice. Very tight, chromatic
density in your phrases. Cool.
$50 for your book? This was the freebie to get me hooked,
right? haha.......I'll think about it.
Thanks, you're a very good teacher.
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
" I like the C naturals over the A7b9. Minor/major ambiguity
once
again (one of the secrets of the jazz sound?). "
Secret? It is a very typical alteration: "sharp ninth" or "raised
ninth". Technically a "flat tenth" leading into the tonic chord of
resolution. It will work as a 'bop note' because where A7b9 works,
A7#9 can usually work or be implied. Bb and C work nice ( Bb more so
for A7b9 specific) as alterations against A7b9 or A7alt. Once again,
beware of *only* thinking modes. It is one way and a part way at that.
I do not denounce them.
-TD
Joey Goldstein
> On Oct 29, 12:03 pm, Joey Goldstein<nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>> On 10/28/2010 11:01 PM, Paul wrote:
> The E altered dominant scale (F mel min
> starting on E) sounds killer too, and also includes the G nat. And
> it works over both the E7b9 and the Em7b5 due to the minor/major
> ambiguity. The locrian works well too.
If you use E altered on Em7b5 and you emphasize the G# in the scale
you'll either confuse the listener as to the actual chord quality or
you'll be involved in a type of reharmonization where your lines change
the chord from Em7b5 to E7alt.
> Your solo over Sandy's Eyes was nice. Very tight, chromatic
> density in your phrases. Cool.
Thanks.
> $50 for your book?
What can I say? Postage and photocopying costs have gone up.
> This was the freebie to get me hooked,
> right? haha.......I'll think about it.
>
> Thanks, you're a very good teacher.
I hope so. But I'm not so sure sometimes.
Thanks again.
Gerry
> On Oct 29, 7:05 pm, Gerry <addr...@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 2010-10-29 10:20:03 -0700, Paul said:
>>
>>> Ok, so I road tested this, and the ascending Gmm sounds good
>>> over the beginning of the Em7b5, but the Eb note (flatted 6th) of the
>>> descending Gmm sounded weird
>>
>> So don't flat the sixth. Problem solved!
>>
>> That's the problem I developed while trying to keep various scales
>> entering and exiting all the time. It took my mind off this chord here
>> going to that chord over there with some melodic stuff happening.
>>
>> Just only play the notes you like and disregard the others!
>
> Even bigger problem relying strictly upon modes.
Modes, scales, "assembly of notes" I just find it inhibiting in a brainly way.
--
-- Gerry
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
Any tool, especially if relied on as a crutch, failsafe, or lone
criterion we may find to be easily inhibiting, "brainly" and non-
brainly. If I may act crude for a moment, we certainly don't need an
intelligent lover to produce a good lay. In defense of mode teaching,
it is easily intelligible to the learner, where as what is in some of
the more experienced players' minds, as to what really is further
involved, is a bitch to convey. It is quite possible that the art of
being able to convey might also be a sort of crutch. Yet, it is
important to have a considerable handle on all the modes (parallel and
hybrid modes, fusing modes, the chord scale world and the like) along
with life experience ( including studying the shit out of Bird, Getz,
Powell, Rollins, Trane et al) before weighing and comparing anything.
If not, we are acting primitive by appearing to put down what we know
very little about. And this, of course is a two-way street.
-TD
charlieguitar
Some of the very simplest of ideas are being ignored here. For
instance the A7 can be extended to be A7b9 and diminished stuff
(including the scale) can be used or it can be viewed as A7#5 opening
the door to whole tone ideas (once again including the scale) or the
tritone sub can be used (Eb7 and it's extensions and alterations)
opening the door to such things as Bb melodic minor ideas, and on a
on. All of the preceding can be mixed and also transposed to use
(conceptually at least) on the E7.
Charlie
paul s
Lots of good advice has been given already, I'll add -
listen to several versions of the tune and transcribe a solo or two.
And/or - transcribe the phrases that "grab you".
Paul S
sheetsofsound
joe's book is highly recommended.
However, another piece of advice I would advise is to TRANSCRIBE,
TRANSCRIBE, TRANSCRIBE.
Gerry
> On Oct 30, 12:26 pm, Gerry <addr...@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 2010-10-29 16:55:21 -0700, TD said:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Oct 29, 7:05 pm, Gerry <addr...@domain.com> wrote:
>>>> On 2010-10-29 10:20:03 -0700, Paul said:
>>
>>>>> Ok, so I road tested this, and the ascending Gmm sounds good
>>>>> over the beginning of the Em7b5, but the Eb note (flatted 6th) of the
>>>>> descending Gmm sounded weird
>>
>>>> So don't flat the sixth. Problem solved!
>>
>>>> That's the problem I developed while trying to keep various scales
>>>> entering and exiting all the time. It took my mind off this chord here
>>>> going to that chord over there with some melodic stuff happening.
>>
>>>> Just only play the notes you like and disregard the others!
>>
>>> Even bigger problem relying strictly upon modes.
>>
>> Modes, scales, "assembly of notes" I just find it inhibiting in a brainly way.
>
> Any tool, especially if relied on as a crutch, failsafe, or lone
> criterion we may find to be easily inhibiting, "brainly" and non-
> brainly. If I may act crude for a moment, we certainly don't need an
> intelligent lover to produce a good lay. In defense of mode teaching,
> it is easily intelligible to the learner, where as what is in some of
> the more experienced players' minds, as to what really is further
> involved, is a bitch to convey. It is quite possible that the art of
> being able to convey might also be a sort of crutch. Yet, it is
> important to have a considerable handle on all the modes (parallel and
> hybrid modes, fusing modes, the chord scale world and the like) along
> with life experience ( including studying the shit out of Bird, Getz,
> Powell, Rollins, Trane et al) before weighing and comparing anything.
> If not, we are acting primitive by appearing to put down what we know
> very little about. And this, of course is a two-way street.
Sure, use whatever makes you, or students, feel better about what they
are doing, have informed choices, and make good music.
For me, I spent many years studying modes, scales, the Chromatic Lydian
concept, using chord structure as the point of departure, voice
leading, melodic variation and all the rest. Not to mention more than
one or two crackpot schemes that went nowhere.
But now, if the 6th sounds bad I flat it, rather than looking for a
similar scale, a scale built over yonder that has most of the notes I
want but not that flatted sixth, a substitute chord that accomodate my
scale choice and all the rest. I just flat the 6th. I spend very
little time with graph paper coming up with an "ultimate" solution.
I certainly know that students don't start out with this kind of
thinking, and concur that teaching modes is a good "delivery system"
with students. There should also be a time when this stops guiding all
their moment-to-moment considerations in making line. I'd think that
should be earlier rather than later when it has become the only arrow
in the quiver.
But again, my view is whatever makes people happy and comfortable and
hopefullly produces music that isn't a chore to hear.
--
-- Gerry
rpjazzguitar
Here is another thought on approaching how to solo on the tune. This
wasn't my first thought (which involved thinking in A nat min and then
altering a few notes here and there to fit the chords). This is just
another idea.
Let's take the first couple of bars.
Instead of Am, think of another chord that would fit. The scale based
ideas are equivalent, but let's just think about chords.
Am6 would work. That's very close to D13. If you think about D13, even
just outlining the D13 at the 10th fret C F# B E, it will fit and give
a certain dark (to me) sound.
The next two chords are Bm7b5 and E7.
Bm7b5 is Dm with the 6th in bass. You're already playing D13, so you
can simply more the F# to an F and cover the Bm7b5.
E7's tritone sub is Bb7. You can slide down from the 10th fret to the
6th and play a similarly constructed line on Bb13. If you use the C in
the melody, you can drop that to a B for the next Am and make it Am9.
You can leave the F# in place and made it Am13. Then, just outline the
next ii V with chord tones and the contrast will sound good.
Next after the Am, you've got a Dm7 G7 C. Think Dm13. Outlining the G7
sounds pretty vanilla, but you can go up a minor third and outline a
Bb7b9 (same notes as G7b9) starting on the Ab and then resolve to
Cmaj. For the A7, just find a chord that fits. All the A dominants
with altered 5's and 9's will work. I came up with Bb7sus sliding to
A7sus 5x543x then A9#11 5x544 to Dm9 (there's a D D# E in that
sequence that I liked). If you outline all of those chords, it will
sound good (to me, at least).
Anyway, you may not like any of these choices, but the idea is that
you can reharmonize the tune for comping purposes and then try to play
on your new chords.
I am offering this, not as a replacement for other approaches, but
just as another way to think about it. Mark Levine points out that
chords and scales are the same thing, so this is just a different
angle, not a different approach.
The goal is to train your ear to hear different sounds, then sing a
solo in your mind and make it come out of the guitar. The above is
just a simple tool to find some sounds.
Tim McNamara
Gerry <add...@domain.com> wrote:
That seems to be basically what Jimmy Bruno has been teaching. He
decomplicates a lot of this stuff, apparently boiling it down to how he
thinks about music when he plays. This seems to be a combination of
identifying the tonal center, playing in that key and being sensitive to
variations suggested by the harmony (b6 for example).
> But again, my view is whatever makes people happy and comfortable and
> hopefullly produces music that isn't a chore to hear.
I think that's probably not a bad view. There are a lot of people who
play waaay better than me whose thinking about this stuff is far more
complicated than mine. And there are people whose thinking is simpler
than mine who play waaaaay better than me, too. In fact there are just
a lot of people whose playing is waaay better than mine.... ;-)
Gerry
> There are a lot of people who
> play waaay better than me whose thinking about this stuff is far more
> complicated than mine. And there are people whose thinking is simpler
> than mine who play waaaaay better than me, too. In fact there are just
> a lot of people whose playing is waaay better than mine.... ;-)
You're overlooking all the many players worse than you who have more
complicatd and less complicated approaches than you also!
--
-- Gerry
Tim McNamara
Gerry <add...@domain.com> wrote:
Thank you for assuming there are any. ;-)
Gerry
There are JILLIONS. Look around you my friend! Listen on any street corner!
--
-- Gerry
Rick Stone
> Get a copy of Mark Levine's jazz theory book. It will clarify a lot of
> this stuff for you, is well laid out and easy to follow with excellent
> examples over chords and melodies from real jazz tunes.
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Jazz-Theory-Book-Mark-Levine/dp/1883217040
Definitely, Mark Levine's book is the way to go.
--
Musically Yours,
Rick Stone
Website: http://www.rickstone.com
Recordings: http://www.cdbaby.com/all/jazzand
Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/jazzand
Myspace: http://www.myspace.com/rickstonemusic
EPK: http://www.sonicbids.com/rickstone
Paul
Apparently, his Jazz Theory book is an updated
version of his Jazz Piano book. A reviewer has stated
that the two books share duplicate chapters.
I may get the Theory one.....
rpjazzguitar
>
> - Show quoted text -
I have both. There's a good deal of overlap, but they aren't
identical.
I read, some time ago, that somebody was making recordings of all the
examples.
Does anybody know if those recordings are available?
If you haven't seen the book, it's filled with written-out snippets
taken from various jazz records (some simplified), but it doesn't come
with a CD. And, the snippets are written for piano and mostly not
playable on guitar, at least not exactly.
Greger Hoel
<tim...@bitstream.net>:
Maybe I should start posting clips, for the greater good. (the greater
good, in this case, being rmmgj'ers feeling better about their own
playing.)
--
Always cross a vampire; never moon a werewolf
Tim McNamara
"Greger Hoel" <gre...@blowme.com> wrote:
> På Sun, 31 Oct 2010 05:21:54 +0100, skrev Tim McNamara
LOL!