Miking an archtop guitar in a live situation - Mic Recommendation

[Jens Weisse]

Hello,

I need some advice from those of you who have miked an archtop guitar in a
live situation. AS I will need monitoring, the mike needs to be feedback
resistant. If the mike would be usable in a homeroecording environment as
well, it would be a big plus (vocals, acoustic instruments).

Any recommendations? I was thinking shure ksm 27, but I am not s(h)ure how
feedback resistant this thing would be in a live situation. Generally,
should I use a large or a small condenser? what are the main differences? I
am willing to spend up to 350$, depending on quality.

Thanks everyone -

Jens

[Nate Najar]

you want somethign with a fairly tight pattern. Unfortunately your
budget is pretty low. The ideal mic if money were no object is a
scheops cmc641 hypercardioid. That's a small diaphragm condenser with
a tight hyper pattern. In your budget I would stay away from chinese
import mics. Your best bet, except it's big and ugly on stage, is to
get an EV RE20. It's a dynamic mic, not a condenser, but it will sound
very natural, has a fairly tight pattern and has a million and one uses
on stage and in the studio. And it will last you forever.

Nate

[moma...@gmu.edu]

Schertler dyn-g. It's a dynamic mic that attaches to the top or back of
the guitar with a non-reactive putty. About the size of a quarter. I
use one for bass--it's very close to the sound of a mic on a stand but
with far less feedback. The bass model (dyn-b) sounds great on my
archtop, and I've tried the dyn-g on other people's guitars and been
very impressed with the sound. It doesn't sound quite as good as a mnic
on a stand--it's missing some "air." But less feedback proiblems and
you don't have to worry about proximity. It'd fit your budget though
just barely

[git...@t-online.de]

hallo Jens !
eigentlich willst du eine eierlegende wollmilchsau - und sowas gibt's
bekanntlich nicht, leider ! für relativ kleines geld bekommst du von
Oktavia sehr gute mikrophone für jeden einsatz. generell gilt : ein
studio mikro ist zu empfindlich für die bühne ! ausnahme : eine
konzertante situation, keine lauten instrumente in unmittelbarer
umgebung der gitarre. ich nehme nie ein mikro für meine archtop , nur
für eine konzert-gitarre : ein altes, nicht mehr hergestelltes Beyer
bändchen mikro. meine archtop hat einen Kent Armstrong pickup am
halsende und wenn ich die höhen nicht abdrehe, nimmt er den
akustischen ton der gitarre sehr gut ab. verstärkt mit einem AER
Acousticube verstärker klingt das sehr überzeugend ! hoffe, das hilft
...

[petterse...@shure.com]

Jens:

First, a disclaimer: I work for Shure Incorporated and have since 1976.
My position is the manager of Product Applications Engineering.

I have the opportunity to try microphones of all types, Shure and
non-Shure. The Shure KSM137 is my currect favorite mic for acoustic
archtop. I have a 1947 Epiphone Emperor - my amp is an AER Compact 60.

The KSM137 can be used for vocal but will require the use an effective
external windscreen. The KSM27 does not work as well as the KSM137 -
the KSM27 is less feedback resistant, and does not sound as natural as
the KSM137.

I respectively disagree with Nate Najar about the hypercardioid
Schoeps, though Schoeps makes world-class mics. A hypercardioid will
exhibit excessive proximity effect (bass boost) when placed closed to
the guitar. A Shoeps cardioid mic would be a better choice.

He also recommended the EV RE20; Shure has a similar model, the SM7B.
Again, I respectively disagree with Mr. Najar. The RE20 and the SM7B
lack the superb transient response of a good condenser mic; this
translates into a "duller" response for the higher frequencies. Though
either model makes a great mic for TV and radio voice-over work.

If you want to contact me at Shure, my email is:
pettersen_michael AT shure DOT com

Or contact Shure Europe: support AT shure DOT de

Michael Pettersen
http://www.freddiegreen.org

[Nate Najar]

Michael,

I know you have a thorough experience wiith the mics you use and don't
doubt the stuff you are saying at all. I have not heard the Shure mics
that you are talking about, but I have read your posts about their uses
in the past and they mus be working well for you. I can't comment
since i havne't used them! With regard to your comment about the
schoeps, you are very correct about hypercardioid mics exhibiting a
high proximity effect. But have you ever used this particular mic in
this context? Because honestly, it kills! I woulld not ever use any
other hyper that i previously have had experience with as none have
worked for me like this one. So if you haven't tried the cmc641, you
should audition one just so you have heard it. Of course you'll
probably quit your job and start using the schoeps exclusively! just
kidding about that last part. Seriously i dono't know how they did it,
but they got a hyper that is magnificent.

Aboout the re20, you wouldn't think it would be a good guitar mic. To
be honest, I never would've tried it but i saw a picture somewhere of
charlie byrd doing a concert somewhere and they mic'd him with an re20.
I said to myself "self, that looks rather odd, i wonder what it sounds
like?" so i tried it and it's fantastic. Very warm and full sounding.
Most lower cost condensers are screechy and harsh in the top end-
combine that with the inexpensive mic preamp most people have these
days and, well, you get the idea. The re20 alleviates a lot of that.

my $.02 .

Nate

[jdah...@uiuc.edu]

You may want to visit 3Daudio.com a place where recording engineers etc
discuss.
Many are guitarists and questions like this come up.
John

[petterse...@shure.com]

Nate:

I have tried the Schoeps CMC 641. It is superb mic; not surprising as
it is a Schoeps. However, I found the proximity effect made my guitar
sound "boomy". All hypercardioids that use a single rear entry port
have more proximity effect that a single rear entry port cardioid.
This is a fact of the physics that underlies microphone design. For my
setup and taste, I prefer the Shure KSM137 over the CMC 641. What
excites me about the KSM137 is that is captures the exact timbre of my
guitar, and I had not found that in any mic before the KSM137.
Microphone preference is quite subjective and I always recommend that a
musician audition different microphones with his/her equipment setup to
find what appeals to the ear.

I agree that the RE20 is very warm and full sounding, as is the SM7B.
This characteristic is what makes these models excellent mics for
voice-overs; they provide the FM radio announcer voice. For my big band
work, I need the guitar timbre to cut through the "cacaphony" of the
horns, and that requires a top-end response from the mic that cannot be
provided by the RE20 or the SM7B. Dynamic mics such as these models
do have the transient response of a well-designed condenser.

If you really want to hear a "warm" sound, audition a ribbon microphone
made in the 40's or 50's. RCA, Shure, and Coles (United Kingdom) and
other made them. Reproductions of the RCA models are now offered by:
http://www.wesdooley.com/aea/R44_interstitial.html

Thank you for your comments and intelligent observations, Nate. I
believe our discussion will help the original poster, Jens.

Best regards,
Michael

[Nate Najar]

Michael,

this is a great discussion. i think we are on the same page and have
different tastes and requirements! Although the last thing i need is
to buy more microphones, just for added flavor to the kit i think I'll
audition the ksm137. I still hold that the schoeps cmc641 is the best
acoustic guitar mic on the planet, but your mileage may vary.

And you're right, for your uses with the big band, an extended top end
may help quite a bit in being heard. As far as the ribbons are
concerned, the rca 77 is my favorite upright bass mic!

Nate