Joe Pass - Economy picking
ScotGormley
He clearly uses a form of economy picking when moving from lower
strings to higher strings. In one of the REH videos, he also mentions
that he always uses a downstroke when changing strings, but does he
really? To me, it doesn't look like he's always using a dowstroke when
moving from, say, the 1st to the 2nd string.
He also rarely used any type of backward sweeping for arpeggios,
although he does do it here to mimic an O.P. phrase:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Kq5YQpaC1Y&feature=related
. . . and he seemed to play more scalar (as opposed to arp) based
lines. It also appears that Joe preferred stretch fingerings rather
than shifting back. For example, if playing a G Dorian scale in 3rd
position, he'd reach for the E and A notes on strings 5 and 4, rather
than shifting back to 2nd position for those notes.
TD
He relied on slurring a lot. Other than that he used alternate. I
would not say that he used economy picking per se, but slurring along
with alternate is a form of economy. Although, I loathe the term
"economy" picking. He never "always" used anything, though. He
adjusted to the music at hand. By always doing a certain thing, one
usually forces the music to fit the "alwaysness." You can hear it when
you see it and you can see it when you hear it.
-TD
pmfan57
My understanding is that he did some form or variation of gypsy
picking, in that he always started a new string with a down pick.
charlieguitar
He stated that he always picked down when changing strings and used a
lot of pull offs when going from high to low. I tried it for a while
with very mixed results. It was hard when coming down to get the
right kind of thing happening with the pulloffs which leads me to
believe that there was more going on than he explained.
Charlie
TD
Yes, very keen to see that, as this is how he got around the high to
low. He used loads of pull-offs and slurs, and you hear that as
constituting a greater part of his plectrum (and fingers without pick)
style. He was also never one to utilize 'unorthodox" (non-chord form
type) fingerings; his choice. In the end, as history reveals, he was
always musical. In many successful down-picking ( in straight-ahead
jazz) from high to low you are quite likely to see a 'down' followed
by a slur as opposed to down followed by an 'up'. There are exceptions
as in everything, but the music must never be starved.
-TD
southtexasguitarist
I've done a fair number of JP transcriptions and was at a two day
seminar with Joe way back when. His scale fingerings are based on the
CAGED system - he said so in the seminar and showed what it meant - so
I'd disagree that he (necessarily) stretched to get notes rather than
shift. He also said the same about chords, that he'd rather play an
easier chord fingering and use interesting subs as opposed to chords
with big stretches, his reasoning being chords with stretches are
awkward to get at when improvising. As far as his lines being more
scalar than arp, again I wouldn't generalize too much here. To my ears
Joe was one of the all-time best at playing interesting lines that
clearly outline the underlying harmony, and as such it's a mix of
everything and not more of one aspect (scalar) over another
(arpeggios).
Clay
Gerry
> Although, I loathe the term "economy" picking.
It's called a number of things when you hit two notes on adjacent
strings picking in the same direction. What do you call that approach?
--
-- Gerry
TD
I loathe the word "economy." You guys can call it that; "yucko!" For
me it cheapens a study that I have spent many years with. For me,
"economy" brings up another word: "cheap." We are "economizing" for
lunch. But that may just be the way I see it. Don't mind me. I seem to
have an over-active imagination.
"hit two notes on adjacent
> strings picking in the same direction. What do you call that approach?" *Consecutive picking*, for that particular item, is what some of us call it.
For the *system* ( which constitutes a helluva lot more than
substituting ways for alternating, as it has an "intelligence" to it
by way of acting in conjunction with the written music at hand or way
of phrasing and executing the improvisation within jazz or even the
dictsted classical violin, clarinet, saxophone literature, and not
just a mere looking at the "physicality" of pick to stringness), which
we have discussed ad nauseum in countless postings in the past, I cite
the penning of Joe Sgro (plectrum master from south Philly): "The Slur-
Alternate System". The word slur has a two-fold meaning. 1: slur (no
pick) 2: two downs in a row is also a slur (as said in violin bowing)
as well as two ups in a row. Guitarists rarely utilize the latter as a
definition. The Slur-Alternate System is comprised of approx. 75%
alternate and roughly 25% mixture of slurs, consecutives, pull-offs,
and ornaments et al.
-TD ( Such talk would probably not be so important here, as I was only
trying to answer your question)
Gerry
> On Nov 30, 12:27 pm, Gerry <addr...@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 2010-11-30 05:27:19 -0800, TD said:
>>
>>> Although, I loathe the term "economy" picking.
>>
>> It's called a number of things when you hit two notes on adjacent
>> strings picking in the same direction. What do you call that approach?
>> --
>> -- Gerry
>
> I loathe the word "economy." You guys can call it that; "yucko!"
I don't call it that, I was simply asking what you call it. I don't
care so much what handles we use for most things as long as we
generally agree on what it means and it has no universally accepted
negative connotation.
>> "hit two notes on adjacent strings picking in the same direction. What
>> do you call that approach?"
>
>> *Consecutive picking*, for that particular item, is what some of us call it.
>
> For the *system* ( which constitutes a helluva lot more than
> substituting ways for alternating, as it has an "intelligence" to it
> by way of acting in conjunction with the written music at hand or way
> of phrasing and executing the improvisation within jazz or even the
> dictsted classical violin, clarinet, saxophone literature, and not
> just a mere looking at the "physicality" of pick to stringness), which
> we have discussed ad nauseum in countless postings in the past, I cite
> the penning of Joe Sgro (plectrum master from south Philly): "The Slur-
> Alternate System". The word slur has a two-fold meaning. 1: slur (no
> pick) 2: two downs in a row is also a slur (as said in violin bowing)
> as well as two ups in a row.
That's the first time I've ever two-down/two-up referred to as a
"slur". I figure if each gets a slid attack from a pick, it's not a
slur.
> Guitarists rarely utilize the latter as a
> definition. The Slur-Alternate System is comprised of approx. 75%
> alternate and roughly 25% mixture of slurs, consecutives, pull-offs,
> and ornaments et al.
>
> -TD ( Such talk would probably not be so important here, as I was only
> trying to answer your question)
People tend to gravitate to words/phrases that are easy to remember and
descriptive. I think "economy" will likely win out. I kinda liked
"raking" for a while, but it tends to imply a series, like Kessel's or
Wayne's approach to multi-string arpeggios, where there is one note per
string in the same direction. "Rake" is easier to say, but obviously
not descriptive of two consecutive strings in the middle of an
otherwise alternated passage.
--
-- Gerry
335
I cite
> the penning of Joe Sgro (plectrum master from south Philly): "The Slur-
> Alternate System".
Did Sgro write a book on the slur alternate technique? If yes, is the
book still available?
TD
No, he did not believe that his method could fully be taught in a
book. He believed in the idea ( "you must be shown") of
"apprenticeship." I do too, particularly in this matter. That would be
like trying to learn Karate from a book. However, a student of his
wrote a general idea of his concept in a series of books, which Joe
endorsed. I guess you can pull up that site by googling his name. I
have no further comment about books. If you ever come to NY, I will be
happy to share what I have learned and what I use, if this interests
you. I had sent in a manuscript to Hal Leonard Publishing some years
ago, as I was in the midst of writing a book on picking based on what
I learned form Joe and what I have enhanced via personal experience
and adaptations. {There are several old articles on my "Startegic
Picking" technique from Just Guitar Guitar Mag, which I no longer have
time to write for. } It was too quickly turned down. They thought that
it wouldn't sell. I quickly lost interest in finishing and editing
it. I can get that way. I just wanna blow, man.
-TD
ScotGormley
Tony, I think I picked up that "economy picking" tag from Tommy
Tedesco. Didn't mean to cheapen the concept by any means--I use the
technique frequently.
sheetsofsound
>
> > Any of you folks ever made a study of Joe's right hand pick technique?
> > He clearly uses a form of economy picking when moving from lower
> > strings to higher strings. In one of the REH videos, he also mentions
> > that he always uses a downstroke when changing strings, but does he
> > really? To me, it doesn't look like he's always using a dowstroke when
> > moving from, say, the 1st to the 2nd string.
>
> > He also rarely used any type of backward sweeping for arpeggios,
> > although he does do it here to mimic an O.P. phrase:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Kq5YQpaC1Y&feature=related
>
> > . . . and he seemed to play more scalar (as opposed to arp) based
> > lines. It also appears that Joe preferred stretch fingerings rather
> > than shifting back. For example, if playing a G Dorian scale in 3rd
> > position, he'd reach for the E and A notes on strings 5 and 4, rather
> > than shifting back to 2nd position for those notes.
>
> He relied on slurring a lot. Other than that he used alternate. I
> would not say that he used economy picking per se,
He definitely used economy picking quite a bit. I saw him play many
times up close and had a couple lessons with him.
Mark Cleary
picking but then sometimes he did not. I know he told me that he really
thought about the root of the chord and simply made all his adjustment from
that point. He really avoided all the terminology that I see with some
teachers of jazz improvisation. I was always interested in his finger style
technique but he told me he did whatever he could to get out the line he
heard. He simply never sat down to do anything to as far as classical
players working on technique, he called it bastardized form of finger style
playing. He had his Ibanez guitar at the time and I remember I still did not
like where the pick up was in relationship to the fingerboard.
I know I enjoyed his dry humor as much as his playing.
Deacon Mark Cleary
Epiphany Church
"sheetsofsound" wrote in message
news:084c81ab-d949-4b38...@m35g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
Is that all? I knew him quite well. We were friends since 1971. I sat
down many times over the years and played tunes with him. He slurred a
lot, but I would not call it out and out economy picking. He didn't
either. If economy picking to some people is anything other than
strict alternate, then I guess it's all economy. But for example, his
picking was far different from that of Joe Sgro's picking which really
is economy picking without labelling with that name. Pass slurred,
and mixed with pull-offs other than the alternate, so to some people
that is "economy picking." Strict alternate in bebop is lame anyhow,
no matter how you cut it.
-TD
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
Oh, not you cheapening anyhow, it is a known and accepted term these
days. I don't use that term and it's no big deal anyhow. "Economy"
sounds icky to me is all.
I prefer "First Class" picking, myself.
-TD
sheetsofsound
It doesn't matter what he called it. He explained to me and also said
in many interviews that whenever he changes strings with the pick he
goes in the direction of the string. *THAT* is directional picking.
NEXT
van
On the DVD with Duke Ellington I mentioned in another thread, he used
a lot of slurring when he played with his fingers and thumb, but on
the fast shit, he used some type of picking that wasn't strictly
alternate.
While you can definitely get the job done on fast tunes with that
picking, I preferred Joe's playing with his thumb to his pick playing.
Whether that was a result of his particular picking technique, I
understand what Jimmy Raney meant when he said Pass sounded "like
Charlie Parker, all straightened out."
There's definitely a more Swing aspect to his playing than Bebop, but
in that context (Duke) it worked out perfect.
sheetsofsound
I love joe's fingerstyle and pick playing. Very unconventional. It's
true that he didn't have a clue about economy or sweep picking but
what he did is documented pretty well, whether he wanted to call it
that or not...I'm sure chuck wayne and tal farlow didn't know they
were sweep picking either.
On a personal note, I like alternate picking. :)
RB
I think Raney meant Joe had straightened out the polyrhythmic
implications Bird has, not so much the actual articulation - tho there
was that too...
Mark Cleary
going on. I think I get that from my Johnny Smith influence but at times I
wish I could loosen up my approach.
Deacon Mark Cleary
Epiphany Church
"sheetsofsound" wrote in message
news:991c4870-eb74-46f8...@r14g2000prj.googlegroups.com...
sheetsofsound
agreed. No guitarist ever came close to bird's rhythmic approach
though metheny sure adds some twists and turns with his freer approach
to barlines and such.
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
Oh, I forgot, you know better.
-TD
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
Unfortunately, Raney was being sarcastic.
-TD
RB
Which is ironic in itself, because Raney sure didn't swing or have the
time and overall command Joe had. Also, for all of Raney's
pontificating about Charlie Parker, he actually, if you're really
honest about, didn't sound anything like him. He didn't have NEARLY
the time Bird had.... Sounds like a vaguely jealous comment on Raney's
part...
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
Way off.
-TD
icarusi
news:1bcbc5bd-07e1-4dad...@r16g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
>>He relied on slurring a lot. Other than that he used alternate. I
would not say that he used economy picking per se, but slurring along
with alternate is a form of economy. Although, I loathe the term
"economy" picking. He never "always" used anything, though. He
adjusted to the music at hand. By always doing a certain thing, one
usually forces the music to fit the "alwaysness." You can hear it when
you see it and you can see it when you hear it.<<
The fun thing about guitar, and other instruments, is you can use a variety
of techniques in a variety of orders to get from one note to the next.
Sometimes it's just convenience, sometimes it makes a better overall sound
to the phrase. I don't like 'too' much alternate picking. It starts to sound
mechanical to my ears, although for super-fast playing it's hard to beat.
Sometimes I've changed a techinique to suit a tempo. Legato to alternate to
get more a more staccato sound at a faster tempo, although sometimes the
legato worked in context at that tempo, and more slurs, bends, hammer-ons
and pull-offs at slower tempos to add more expression.
icarusi
--
remove the 00 to reply
http://icarusi.wordpress.com/
van
You should probably stick with funk or fusion or whatever it is you
play. You have no conception of the rhythmic qualities of bebop or
swing.
Joe Pass had more of the older style Swing rhythmic approach to his
music than Bird or Raney.
He still had a lot of bop ideas, but rhythmically, his Django
influence seems to have predominated over Bird's.
To say that Raney didn't sound like Bird is so unperceptive, I've got
to believe that you're either putting us on to get a reaction like
this, or you honestly don't have a clue about things like this...
There was a good reason why Raney was the guitarist for dozens of
musicians who played with Bird:
Phil Woods
Al Haig
Stan Getz
Teddy Charles
Charles MacPherson (quoted as saying he sounded just like Bird)
Bob Brookmeyer
Barry Harris (also quoted as saying he sounded like Bird)
Donald Byrd
etc...
In addition, you'd have to confront the literally thousands of jazz
guitarists who say that his time, feel and Bop-style swing were
impeccable:
Jack Wilkins
Peter Leitch
Barry Galbraith
Jim Hall
Kenny Burrell
Grant Green
Pat Martino
Wes Montgomery
etc...
I've dug up the Raney LP "Live in Tokyo to quote Barry Harris as
saying about Raney; "He's the only guitar player that can do things
like Yard did."
I rest my case.
sheetsofsound
Actually he's on the money
sheetsofsound
Well, if Barry and Tony said it who could possibly dispute it?
Dan Adler
In many ways you could say that Clifford Brown, Chet Baker, Dexter
Gordon or Stan Getz (all top faves of mine) were much more
"straightened out" rhythmically than Bird or Trane. I really see that
as an irrelevant remark, and I hope it is wrongly attributed to Raney.
I think that to understand Joe Pass or any truly great guitarist's
technique, you have to accept that it is a solution to a problem. The
problem (as I see it) is how to transfer the concept of tonguing and
articulation (which also includes controlled air flow to create
swelling volume effects in almost every phrase) on these wind
instruments to guitar and how to transfer the fact that jazz phrasing
is usually modulo-2 or 4 whereas the number of notes played per string
is very often 1 or 3. That is the problem. Many great guitarists have
found very clever and creative solutions to it. But if you take just
one slice of their technique and isolate it, then you get a partial
solution to the wrong problem. You have to start by really
understanding the problem and then evaluate the solution that works
best for you.
sheetsofsound
I don't agree Dan. Benson and to a lesser degree Wes solved the
problem. So has Dan Wilson and many other jazz guitarists. The point
is that it's easier to just play strings of 8th notes (i'm guilty of
this as well) and that's what too many jazz guitarists do and it's why
they are not interesting IMO. Rosenwinkel and many younger players
have unique approaches to this and IMO it has nothing to do with
module-2 or the amount of notes per strings. I believe it comes from
focusing on music and not just GUITAR music.
sheetsofsound
The TD that I know and love is back. YAY! The point is the slurring
stuff happened later when he switched to fingerstyle. Nice to have you
back Tony.
Dan Adler
I think we are actually saying the same thing... as Dave Liebman says
"eighth notes are the currency of jazz", but of course variety is
king, and I certainly appreciate and seek out players who break away
from the norm.
van
I think Raney was commenting somewhat sarcastically about how Joe
Pass' playing kind of harkens back to a pre-Bird
conception of jazz.
Dan Adler
ScotGormley
>
> - Show quoted text -
I would mention, too, that Joe's playing changed a lot over the years.
In the early days he sounded more horn like (although ironically, he
picked more notes then) and later changed into more of a blues-based
player. I had some lessons with Ted Greene, and he said that he used
to follow around Joe Pass with a tape recorder and that the lines in
TG's Single Line Improv books are based on Joe's earlier approach.
I love all of Joe's playing, and he's my primary influence, for sure.
Still remember fondly the day when I stood behind Joe for about an
hour while he played with Joe Diorio (in Joe's small office at GIT).
Then there was a day when JP played a student's Ibanez Steve Lukather
model with light strings to show that you can play jazz on an guitar,
with any setup. That was a gem.
Also, I've been thinking about how JP liked to play with "half a
pick." He'd break 351-sized picks in half. I've been experimenting
with reshaping some Clayton 1.9mm into a shape slightly smaller than a
small teardrop (358 size). I've been using mill files and an ignition
file for this, and I've been very, very pleased with the results. For
some reason, I've always had trouble holding on to the Clayton 351s,
but I like their fat sound.
Dan Adler
Welcome to the club! I also mutilate all my fender picks the same
way... and I also agree with your observations. The later stuff (Pablo
and onward), as great as it is (and it is), sounds almost like a
different person than the early Pacific Jazz and MPS era. I don't know
about the blues influence, but the phrasing, the sound, the logic of
the lines, the time feel and the use of cliches was completely
different from around 1973 and onward. Of course, you could say the
same about Miles, Coltrane or any number of other jazz players...
TD
Looks like you beg for another enemy, "actually."
Get help for yourself.
-TD
sheetsofsound
Hey Tony,
Stop with all the passive-agressive sh@t. You do it all the time and
that's what I'm responding to.
Paul K
Great point. Knowing there's a problem is the first step to finding a
solution.
--
Paul K
http://www.youtube.com/user/fibrationboy
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=240975
http://mypage.iu.edu/~pkirk/
sheetsofsound
TD
> So is van Tony D posting under a different name?
OK, you have have your wish. You have been wanting it for several
years already.
-TD
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
The thing is human naturism. Just about all of our heroes put down
each other and not so much behind closed doors. I loved Pass' playing
and I loved Raney's playing. For example, Pass hated Hall's playing
and made no bones about it in the presence of other players. Are we
supposed to hate Joe for that and put down his playing? Certainly I do
not. And I love Hall's playing. They are all human. Raney's remark got
made public. When I once confronted Joe with it, he put his head down
and shrugged it off. No big deal. It's all part of human nature and
there is no stronger place then here to see all of this. The nasty
thing is people really trying to hurt each other , let alone put down
some of the greatest players in the history of jazz guitar....wow.
Look how famous and influential they were. We are wasting time with
negative quotes when we should be listening to the playing. You want
to say Pass used 100% "economy" picking? No problem. Who cares really
about this subject that much to wage a war over it? Am I going to put
down some one's playing who was at one time like family to me and one
of the greatest jazz players in the history of the instrument. Am I
going to go against Wes Montgomery's opinion that Raney was the best
he ever heard and "My favorite player"...." I do not think so. So, he
made a negative remark. It wasn't THAT negative. And Joe's negative
remarks go unnoticed or allowed. This becomes an old lady's club and
there comes a point, where it seems we are at the border of, when we
cannot seem to elevate above high-school. I mean, what is really the
point?
-TD
Rick Stone
> Well, if Barry and Tony said it who could possibly dispute it?
Apples and Oranges Jack. Seen both of them play numerous times. Love
them both, but they're VERY different animals. Pass' solo thing was
beyond reproach, but his single-line thing was pretty square compared to
Raney's. Everybody's got stuff they do really well. Be careful about
dissing folks. Do you KNOW Barry or have ANY idea of the depth of his
knowledge about the music? He's turning 81 in 2 weeks and has been
TOTALLY immersed in bebop 24-hours-a-day, 7-days-a-week, for the last 70
years. Can your REALLY think he doesn't know what he's talking about
when it comes to jazz phrasing?
--
Musically Yours,
Rick Stone
Website: http://www.rickstone.com
Recordings: http://www.cdbaby.com/all/jazzand
Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/jazzand
Myspace: http://www.myspace.com/rickstonemusic
EPK: http://www.sonicbids.com/rickstone
Rick Stone
> I don't agree Dan. Benson and to a lesser degree Wes solved the
> problem. So has Dan Wilson and many other jazz guitarists. The point
> is that it's easier to just play strings of 8th notes (i'm guilty of
> this as well) and that's what too many jazz guitarists do and it's why
> they are not interesting IMO. Rosenwinkel and many younger players
> have unique approaches to this and IMO it has nothing to do with
> module-2 or the amount of notes per strings. I believe it comes from
> focusing on music and not just GUITAR music.
I agree with you on this, but I think Dan probably does to. Ultimately,
it's about MUSIC and NOT the guitar. The different solutions people
come up with makes it MORE interesting. That's why there is no "best"
and why we want to listen to and enjoy LOTS of different players for
different reasons.
Keith Freeman
331f6f...@n32g2000pre.googlegroups.com:
> The nasty
> thing is people really trying to hurt each other , let alone put down
> some of the greatest players in the history of jazz guitar....wow.
That's the most important thing that's been said in this thread so far!
-Keith
Clips, Portable Changes, tips etc.: www.keithfreemantrio.nl
e-mail: info AT keithfreemantrio DOT nl
sheetsofsound
> On 11/30/2010 11:10 PM, sheetsofsound wrote:
>
> > Well, if Barry and Tony said it who could possibly dispute it?
>
> Apples and Oranges Jack. Seen both of them play numerous times. Love
> them both, but they're VERY different animals. Pass' solo thing was
> beyond reproach, but his single-line thing was pretty square compared to
> Raney's. Everybody's got stuff they do really well. Be careful about
> dissing folks. Do you KNOW Barry or have ANY idea of the depth of his
> knowledge about the music? He's turning 81 in 2 weeks and has been
> TOTALLY immersed in bebop 24-hours-a-day, 7-days-a-week, for the last 70
> years. Can your REALLY think he doesn't know what he's talking about
> when it comes to jazz phrasing?
>
I wasn't talking about jazz phrasing. I was talking about Joe using
economy picking. I've seen it firsthand.
charlieguitar
I suggest that those who feel that Raney didn't swing check out this
recording featuring both him and Kenny Burrell where it is clear that
both are influencing each other to the point that in places it's hard
to tell who is who. (Both are swinging btw.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5JQgeCDh_I&feature=player_embedded#!
Charlie
ScotGormley
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thank you for all the contributors to this thread, which I posted
early this morning. I have enjoyed watching the thread bloom and
appreciate all your perspectives and opinions.
Max
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
>
> > -TD
>
> Which is ironic in itself, because Raney sure didn't swing or have the
> time and overall command Joe had. Also, for all of Raney's
> pontificating about Charlie Parker, he actually, if you're really
> honest about, didn't sound anything like him. He didn't have NEARLY
> the time Bird had.... Sounds like a vaguely jealous comment on Raney's
> part...
LOL!! No wonder i ditched this ng.
van
That's why Rick is spoken of so highly by musicians that both he and I
have worked with (guys in Sol Yaged's band, composer/drummer Dave
Picton).
Some guys can hear it- some guys can't.
sheetsofsound
except we weren't talking about phrasing Tony. We were talking about
picking. I love Raney's phrasing but he's not locked into the time
like Benson, Martino or Wes were.
sheetsofsound
By the way, I heard a version of Stella a few years back on NPR that
sounded like Raney but I could never find the recording. Anyone know
what recording that could be? I loved that version. I'm not 100% sure
it was Raney but it was someone from that era and he swung his @ss off.
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
Keep it up Jack. Just keep it up man. I am not this guy, got it?
-TD
pmfan57
It wasn't completely different, but it only seemed to reappear on
occasion after that, at least in the single note area. Obviously, his
solo guitar stuff was pretty cool after 1973.
Funny, because the MPS stuff (in between his Pacific Jazz and Pablo
periods), both on his Intercontinental album and on those two Art Van
Damme albums, end his great single note era with an amazing burst of
superbocity.
Rick Stone
> By the way, I heard a version of Stella a few years back on NPR that
> sounded like Raney but I could never find the recording. Anyone know
> what recording that could be? I loved that version. I'm not 100% sure
> it was Raney but it was someone from that era and he swung his @ss off.
I learned Stella from a couple recordings by Raney. I think one was on
that album with the black cover (the one on the Swing label) and the
other was a Phil Woods album (don't remember the title, somebody loaned
it to me for a while when I was a student at Berklee. Don't know if
either of these are available on CD. I've to the one on Swing on vinyl.
Rick Stone
> except we weren't talking about phrasing Tony. We were talking about
> picking. I love Raney's phrasing but he's not locked into the time
> like Benson, Martino or Wes were.
I love the way Benson and Martino play (Pat's one of my all-time
favorites), but they don't play with that loose kind of phrasing that
Bird did. I think THAT'S what Barry Harris was responding to in Raney's
playing.
sheetsofsound
> On 12/1/2010 8:48 PM, sheetsofsound wrote:
>
> > except we weren't talking about phrasing Tony. We were talking about
> > picking. I love Raney's phrasing but he's not locked into the time
> > like Benson, Martino or Wes were.
>
> I love the way Benson and Martino play (Pat's one of my all-time
> favorites), but they don't play with that loose kind of phrasing that
> Bird did. I think THAT'S what Barry Harris was responding to in Raney's
> playing.
I agree that Benson and Martino don't play that loose feel. OTOH,
benson plays that really locked in feel which bird obviously could do
when he felt like it. I have never heard raney play like that.
sheetsofsound
Dude, If you have a problem with me take it offline. Enough with the
passive-aggressive threats, got it?!?
jazzmankg
>
> > except we weren't talking about phrasing Tony. We were talking about
> > like Benson, Martino or Wes were.
>
> I love the way Benson and Martino play (Pat's one of my all-time
> favorites), but they don't play with that loose kind of phrasing that
> playing.
>
> --
> Musically Yours,
> Rick Stone
> Website:http://www.rickstone.com
> Recordings:http://www.cdbaby.com/all/jazzand
> Videos:http://www.youtube.com/user/jazzand
> Myspace:http://www.myspace.com/rickstonemusic
> EPK:http://www.sonicbids.com/rickstone
Well it was a curious moment for Dad to say this about a fellow
musician . He mentioned it to me and I've heard him on record saying
it somewhere else. It was probably not a hip thing to do. But since
they are both dead now. Dad respected Pass immensely as a solo artist,
as anyone should, but Joe and many others maybe missed the boat on
the asymmetrical part of bebop playing. Barry is another one that
carried on the strong 40s bebop tradition in all it's particular
details- again despite what other uninformed people are countering
with. The asymmetrical aspect was something Jimmy believed in very
strongly and is something that very few guys could do successfully.
But I guess he was getting on a soapbox a bit on this particular
neglected aspect of the bebop style and maybe was using Joe as his
guinea pig. He's passed a few comments on others as well but I won't
repeat that. Many famous musicians have passed comments on other
players. It's a tough thing and it's always tempting to spill the
beans. For example Jim Hall was telling me a story about someone
famous who really pissed him off but I would NEVER tell you what he
said.
As far as the Raney swing and time aspect. That is that on again off
again troll RB starting this nonsense again. He's pulled this kind of
crap in other places like the allaboutjazz board -until someone
called him out on his own hyperbole and rather mediocre videos forcing
him to retract his stance a bit. ( I can probably point you to the
thread) I think it's sort of pathetic of a person to seek to stir the
pot and use the Internet this way. This is the first I've said
anything about it. But this is the Internet. Anybody can play God, say
somebody sucks and cow other people who may not be secure enough in
their knowledge. To anybody who knows, Jimmy's time was frightening.
He was nearly deaf on many gigs later in life. and could still keep
in perfect time with everyone regardless. No one in the audience
could tell he was playing completely in his head. I'd like to see RB
do that. Listen to the people on this board who have respeced
recordings out and just tune out the people that don't have any
business saying what they're saying. There was reason that Benson,
Abercrombie would show up to sit in with him and many other
established artists such as Pat Metheny and Jim Hall who has
personally told me of his admiration and ifnluence. Plus the tons of
musicians flocking to Bradley's to hear him. Mingus, Blakey,
Flanagan. The list would go on.
In summary, Dad probably shouldn't have dropped this comment. But the
rest of this stuff is just a bunch of crap.
charlieguitar
Lester Young didn't play with a time feel like Benson or Martino,
nobody doubts his ability to swing. There are many different ways to
swing. A lot of these guys who are making these derogatory statements
wouldn't know swinging from doing the Chubby Checker Twist.Their
statements about Jimmy Raney are all of the proof that is needed on
this count.
Charlie
Tim McNamara
<51b72044-6c2f-484b...@i18g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
Dan Adler <d...@danadler.com> wrote:
> I think that to understand Joe Pass or any truly great guitarist's
> technique, you have to accept that it is a solution to a problem. The
> problem (as I see it) is how to transfer the concept of tonguing and
> articulation (which also includes controlled air flow to create
> swelling volume effects in almost every phrase) on these wind
> instruments to guitar and how to transfer the fact that jazz phrasing
> is usually modulo-2 or 4 whereas the number of notes played per
> string is very often 1 or 3. That is the problem. Many great
> guitarists have found very clever and creative solutions to it. But
> if you take just one slice of their technique and isolate it, then
> you get a partial solution to the wrong problem. You have to start by
> really understanding the problem and then evaluate the solution that
> works best for you.
Nice point. Playing jazz guitar is a study in ongoing problem solving,
aiming for a point at which the problem solving is no longer figural so
that you can just blow.
--
Gotta make it somehow on the dreams you still believe.
Rick Stone
Hi Jon, thanks for chiming in. We should get together and play again
sometime. It's been a LONG time :-)
Tim McNamara
<04f39a86-a1c6-49c1...@k14g2000pre.googlegroups.com>,
Dan Adler <d...@danadler.com> wrote:
The good ones, anyway. Miles, Coltrane, Dizzy and on and on. Things
change, people learn and grow. Jazz is infinite in its possibilities
and if you stop exploring those possibilities, you stop playing jazz.
RB
> On 12/1/2010 8:48 PM, sheetsofsound wrote:
>
> > except we weren't talking about phrasing Tony. We were talking about
> > picking. I love Raney's phrasing but he's not locked into the time
> > like Benson, Martino or Wes were.
>
> I love the way Benson and Martino play (Pat's one of my all-time
> favorites), but they don't play with that loose kind of phrasing that
> Bird did. I think THAT'S what Barry Harris was responding to in Raney's
> playing.
I think I hear more Bird when Benson plays a ballad than almost
anyone....Not in the funk stuff, but in ballads...
RB
> I agree that Benson and Martino don't play that loose feel. OTOH,
> benson plays that really locked in feel which bird obviously could do
> when he felt like it. I have never heard raney play like that.
I agree...Raney never really plays deep in the time. There is no
quibbling about this. It is right there in the recordings...Billy Bean
was much closer to Bird actually...
Mr Maj6th
I think you should ask him to post some clips, that will show him.
Maj6th
RB
Prez had one of the most locked in time feels ever. Being able to play
great time is the beginning of then being able to abstract around it.
You can't have one before the other...Metheny is the ultimate example
of a musician that perfected what Raney started - namely the style of
gtr playing that used slurs to achieve a more hornlike flow....but
Raney himself never got there. But for starting it he deserves credit
and also for his compositions which were very fwd looking and beautiful
Bg
> I suggest that those who feel that Raney didn't swing check out this
> recording featuring both him and Kenny Burrell where it is clear that
> both are influencing each other to the point that in places it's hard
> to tell who is who. (Both are swinging btw.)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5JQgeCDh_I&feature=player_embedded#!
>
> - Show quoted text -
I just listened to this clip and could only hear Burrell,
I Must be getting old?
Bg
charlieguitar
If you mean that you couldn't tell the difference then you had the
same reaction that I did the first time. On the second listening I
heard subtle differences in their styles.If you mean though that you
only heard Burrell, that Raney didn't speak to you, I don't know what
to tell you.
Charlie
charlieguitar
Also given the current drift that things are taking,did you hear
anyone on there, identified or not ,who wasn't locked into the time?
Charlie
Keith Freeman
better than the other.
-Keith
Clips, Portable Changes, tips etc.: www.keithfreemantrio.nl
e-mail: info AT keithfreemantrio DOT nl
Graham
be wrong with his time - I wish I had it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSmFXOo-YVY
Graham
tom walls
+1. To me he's the essential bop guitarist. Not that I don't love the
other guys.
unknownguitarplayer
> On Nov 30, 6:50 pm, sheetsofsound <jackzuc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 30, 5:56 pm, TD <tonydecap...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 30, 5:13 pm, sheetsofsound <jackzuc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Nov 30, 8:27 am, TD <tonydecap...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Nov 30, 4:50 am, ScotGormley <scot.gorm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > Any of you folks ever made a study of Joe's right hand pick technique?
> > > > > > He clearly uses a form of economy picking when moving from lower
> > > > > > strings to higher strings. In one of the REH videos, he also mentions
> > > > > > that he always uses a downstroke when changing strings, but does he
> > > > > > really? To me, it doesn't look like he's always using a dowstroke when
> > > > > > moving from, say, the 1st to the 2nd string.
>
> > > > > > He also rarely used any type of backward sweeping for arpeggios,
> > > > > > although he does do it here to mimic an O.P. phrase:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Kq5YQpaC1Y&feature=related
>
> > > > > > . . . and he seemed to play more scalar (as opposed to arp) based
> > > > > > lines. It also appears that Joe preferred stretch fingerings rather
> > > > > > than shifting back. For example, if playing a G Dorian scale in 3rd
> > > > > > position, he'd reach for the E and A notes on strings 5 and 4, rather
> > > > > > than shifting back to 2nd position for those notes.
>
> > > > > He relied on slurring a lot. Other than that he used alternate. I
> > > > > would not say that he used economy picking per se,
>
> > > > He definitely used economy picking quite a bit. I saw him play many
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > down many times over the years and played tunes with him. He slurred a
> > > lot, but I would not call it out and out economy picking.
>
> > It doesn't matter what he called it. He explained to me and also said
> > in many interviews that whenever he changes strings with the pick he
> > goes in the direction of the string. *THAT* is directional picking.
>
> > NEXT
>
> On the DVD with Duke Ellington I mentioned in another thread, he used
> a lot of slurring when he played with his fingers and thumb, but on
> the fast shit, he used some type of picking that wasn't strictly
> alternate.
> While you can definitely get the job done on fast tunes with that
> picking, I preferred Joe's playing with his thumb to his pick playing.
> Whether that was a result of his particular picking technique, I
> understand what Jimmy Raney meant when he said Pass sounded "like
> Charlie Parker, all straightened out."
> There's definitely a more Swing aspect to his playing than Bebop, but
> in that context (Duke) it worked out perfect.
I'm pretty sure that Raney never meant to have his comment about JP
made public. However, it's somewhat refreshing to hear an unvarnished
reaction like that, compared to the "musically correct" blurbsmanship
that goes on today. You don't have to search very far to find very
accomplished cats saying very complimentary things about very mediocre
players. It's understandable, kind and generous, but after a while
reality distortion sets in, and bar gets lower and lower.
sheetsofsound
Nothing's wrong with his swing. Why can't we just discuss things in an
objective manner? He swings his @ss off but his feel is decidedly
different and not locked in the way Benson's is. On the other hand,
Benson rarely or never plays loose like Raney did. Why do folks have
to get into chest beating over this?
And by the way, i'll say it again I SAID NOTHING ABOUT JOE PASS''
SWING FEEL. My only comment was that he used economy picking which I
witnessed many times and discussed it with him *IAND* read his
comments in several interviews on the subject. If you want to take
cheap shots that's fine . Whatever. This place couldn't get much worse.
southtexasguitarist
wrote:
I imagine no one in that former era could have imagined that people
would be rehashing their gossip decades later on an as-yet not
invented form of electronic communication. They'd probably think it's
hilarious.
jazzmankg
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes, Rick. We should. Been on the mend with my arm and subsequently
way out of practice. But definitely would like to
jazzmankg
Direct quote from Metheny on his public forums. There are others but I
start with that
"...billy bean and jimmy raney- the two guys in the 50's that really
figured out how to get inside a modern rhythm section and make it feel
as good as any of a hundred horn players of the day could do. they
were also (not coincidentally) the two guys who were really dealing
with bebop in a non-pattern, truly improvised kind of way on the
guitar..."
Defer to those who know better than you
Keith Freeman
tom walls
Did I say something about swing? I said "essential bop guitarist". His
phrasing has been described here as asymmetric, which is fairly rare
among guitarists, especially of his generation, and identifies him
with Bird.
charlieguitar
Please don't unintentionally start a "Bird didn't swing argument" or
we will be entering moldy fig vs the boppers world.This thing is
getting far enough out of control. I think that the highest honor any
musician could receive would be that "he swings like Bird".
Graham
The thing that made me beat my chest was Bornman's comment:
"Which is ironic in itself, because Raney sure didn't swing or have
the
time and overall command Joe had."
Graham
jazzmankg
> > this count.
> > Charlie
>
> Prez had one of the most locked in time feels ever. Being able to play
> great time is the beginning of then being able to abstract around it.
> You can't have one before the other...Metheny is the ultimate example
> gtr playing that used slurs to achieve a more hornlike flow....butRaneyhimself never got there. But for starting it he deserves credit
> and also for his compositions which were very fwd looking and beautiful- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
He deserves a lot more credit than you are giving him. You are clearly
missing a lot of what makes him great in the finer details and have
not investigated them. A short list of his flock of admirers --that
have either corresponded with me, posted publically or spoken to me
about how great he was- at his gigs are:
Jim Hall
John Abercrombie
George Benson
Jack Wilkins
Pat Metheny
Kenny Burrell
Sal Salvador
Tal Farlow
Wes Montgomery
Gene Bertoncini
Alan Holdsworth
Charles Mingus was personally showing up trying to recruit him for his
music projects in gigs at Bradley's. Do you honestly think he'd be
seeking to recruit someone who couldn't swing? Do you think Blakey
would show up every other night glued to his playing if he didn't
swing? Do you think Benson would show up to his gig asking to sit in
if he didn't swing? Get real, man.
Most of these put down posts have a "the guitar according to me"
unhumble vibe to them. Which is what everybody objects to. If the
person with the opinion were Jim Hall, Pat or whomever we might take a
step back and go hmm. So be satisfied to say.. "Sorry his style is not
what I prefer to hear." which is acceptable to everyone rather than
"Raney Can't swing" which puts you in the position of an authority on
the subject which you are not. This isn't a political correctness
request. It's simply to stop something that is not objective. Jimmy
has a place in music history and is corroroborated by everyone on this
list. The only thing I could agree to his is that he is underrated
(except by most on this board) and that maybe people might prefer
others styles to his such as Benson or whomever. Swinging is a not a
question of emphatic expression of the time vs. understated as
"swinging more". Sometimes even notable musicians make rather broad
statements about "something not swinging". For example Louis
Armstrong's objection to bebop on those grounds. Artists are human,
some times competitive and sometimes out of step generationally. The
only thing that is really objective is influence. If a musician is
quoted as influential, copied, transcribed studied is objectively
influential in phrasing approach and most importantly draws fans to
gigs.. that is the objective fact. Stick to those. Everything else is
opinion or worse, bullshit.
jazzmankg
No, Bg you're not getting old.
Jimmy Raney IS NOT playing on this cut. It's all Kenny here. BTW Kenny
was a huge Raney fan and came after Jimmy in guitar history.
jazzmankg
>
> - Show quoted text -
around this tempo range and playing pretty emphatically in terms of
"digging in" accents. Jimmy's approach was to play more or less
straight, accented time dropped slightly behind the beat. It swings in
a different way than other guitarists. If the cut doesn't make
(whomever) tap the foot, anticipate the next note marvel at the
technical command and overall cohesion of ideas, then there is not
much to be said. We are on different planets.
http://wp.jonraney.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Raney_solo_sweetlovely.mp3
Graham
> Below is a pretty good example of the Raney approach to soloing
> around this tempo range and playing pretty emphatically in terms of
> "digging in" accents. Jimmy's approach was to play more or less
> straight, accented time dropped slightly behind the beat. It swings in
> a different way than other guitarists. If the cut doesn't make
> (whomever) tap the foot, anticipate the next note marvel at the
> technical command and overall cohesion of ideas, then there is not
> much to be said. We are on different planets.
>
> http://wp.jonraney.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Raney_solo_sweetlov...
Jon
That's from Raney 81 with Doug isn't it? A lovely record. In fact
that was the first Jimmy Raney record I heard, and his first solo
(What is this thing called love) just knocked me out instantly. I
keep meaning to transcribe it but it's not easy!
Graham
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
So eloquently stated Jon and it brings a tear to my eye to read you
here, as I still have in my mind when I was at a lesson with Jimmy,
maybe circa '68, when I think you may have been some where in the
vicinity of age two (?) and Jimmy and Lee were marveling at how you
used to tinker out not unmelodious note groupings on the living room
piano. Jimmy said, "I think he might be a piano player."
I was dead set on never posting another post on this NG ever again
last night, but you are here and I feel, at least, like thanking you
for being here. I must do that. Everything you have stated is right on
the money. As for Jimmy (your Dad), what I learned in those early days
form him alone, helped me invaluably in my career working with some of
the biggest names in music history and with arrangers and TV people,
big band, small band, et al. I am forever indebted to the master, a
true master of the jazz guitar. And by the way, he is often compared
with too well known players who could not read nor write a lick. Raney
was a master at it all and could write out magnificent chord melodies
and improvised lines straight from his head. And his lines were the
jazz, and not lines that were straight "guitaresque" (the same tired
lines that emanate solely from chord forms and scales around the chord
positions; that is only one way, but a limited way too). They were
horn-like and piano-like or top put it another way, they were non
biased lines or unshackled to what lays easily in positions and using
what develops only for that reason. He was a true master that many non-
guitar instrumentalists learned from, as well. Farlow once told me,
"The world is one step behind Jimmy Raney." We all know that he was
Wes' favorite.
What they are misinterpreting here about his time (hahahhaha!) is his
*mastery* of the time. They are not understanding what he is doing
with the dotted 8th and dotted quarter note conception and the delayed
effect he gets going. Only a master of time can play with the time in
that manner. What these people need to hear is straight, as Jimmy put
it, "flat-footed" running of the 8th notes CONSTANTLY, because it is
easily discernible to THEM. And therefore what Raney was doing, (TO
THEM) is executing bad time. And the rest of us here have what?...two
choices? Shut-up or what defend ourselves when they come at us with
sledge hammers for begging to differ?
Regarding negative remarks, Pass made many of them ( I was present)
about a few of the players these cats constantly bring up here and
marvel at. These guys are just naive because they were not around it.
(It is easy to view your heroes to be without sin.} So what? It is
human nature and no one escapes that. Call it "jealousy", call it
"competition", call it that old bebop thing where put-downs were in
vogue. No one cares. What some of us care about is others flinging
bullshit unwarrantedly.
Thanks again for your comments. Now I go back to my axe.
-Tony DeCaprio ( a learner from Jimmy Raney)
tom walls
> Thanks again for your comments. Now I go back to my axe.
>
> -Tony DeCaprio ( a learner from Jimmy Raney)
Hey, wait a minute. Before you leave, get over to the "in defense of
music" thread, and give examples of some things that you've used
recently that you copped from your favorite arrangers, composers, etc.
Gerry
> (It is easy to view your heroes to be without sin.}
All heroes are mortals, and all are fallible. Raney among them. I have
him on a short list of about 4 guitarists that I simply can't live
without. But he was not infallible either. In fact on his glorious
"Live in Tokyo" there is a tune in which he fluffs 3 or 4 times across
two choruses. But his recovery from these fluffs is the stuff master
seminars could revolve around, he contextually makes them sound logical.
And another aspect, at least for me, is that when a guitarists bumps
his head from time to time it underscores that he is pushing his own
limits. I think Raney *frequently* pushed his limits. As a point of
comparison, perhaps Al DiMeola or Oscar Peterson never made a mistake.
And their recorded efforts are in the bottom of my stacks.
> So what? It is human nature and no one escapes that. Call it
> "jealousy", call it
> "competition", call it that old bebop thing where put-downs were in
> vogue. No one cares. What some of us care about is others flinging
> bullshit unwarrantedly.
We all have brains and mouths and use them in grand and puerile ways
all the days of our life. I don't think Richard comes to these
discussions without an understanding of time, guitar, guitar-players,
and (most importantly) a lifetime of personally inculcated myopia about
all of these. He is brusque, and he is undoubtedly privy to a unique
perspective that many, and sometimes ALL of us periodically disagree
with.
He inflames others with carping about "geezer music" (I believe that
was one of his salvos). So honestly, why are y'all even countering his
opinion as if it were valid? He is clearly of another frame of mind.
Would you treat it the same if somebody who only knew klezmer music was
giving his opinion of whether Wes could swing or not?
So much passion!
"Raney can't swing" is almost as funny as "Kessel can't swing". Both
barked out aimlessly and likely with intent-to-infuriate, and both by
guitarists with significant capabilities. Or so I'm informed: I've only
heard Richard play.
The idea of listing successful recording guitarists as reference
points, that somehow their opinions ought to (once again!) trump
somebody else's opinon. Jesus, we hit this point about once a week...
--
-- Gerry
Keith Freeman
>
> "Which is ironic in itself, because Raney sure didn't swing or have
> the
> time and overall command Joe had."
You can't beat a good superiority complex ;-}
pmfan57
And Jon didn't even mention the high regard his father was held in by
Coltrane, Sonny Rollins, Barry Harris, Charles McPherson, Sam Jones,
Grant Green and I'm sure dozens of other famous bop masters.
Keith Freeman
It seems to me that Jimmy R was also one of the pioneers of the slow
ballad. As early as 1956 he was keeping a ballad slow throughout (as
opposed to stating the head in slow tempo, then speeding up the time feel
for the improv).
Keith Freeman
content/uploads/2010/12/Raney_solo_sweetlovely.mp3
Thanks for posting that, Jon. One of my favourites is his recording of
Yesterdays in Paris in the 50s. Those tentative, yearning, broken-off
little flurries of notes. A Master!
Keith Freeman
> Coltrane, Sonny Rollins, Barry Harris, Charles McPherson, Sam Jones,
> Grant Green and I'm sure dozens of other famous bop masters.
Not to mention that nice Mr Aebersold who employed him on a couple of
quite-useful-to-guitarists projects ;-}
pmfan57
Funny that players as different as Grant Green and Allan Holdsworth
cite him as an influence. I particularly love his playing in the
1950s, like that 1955 record with Hal Overton. Amazing. And the
album with Bob Brookmeyer.
What's really funny is that Kurt Rosenwinkel said he's trying to sound
like a cross between Grant Green and Allan Holdsworth, so there is a
secondary influence there.
rakmanenuff
> Below is a pretty good example of the Raney approach to soloing
> around this tempo range and playing pretty emphatically in terms of
> "digging in" accents. Jimmy's approach was to play more or less
> straight, accented time dropped slightly behind the beat. It swings in
> a different way than other guitarists. If the cut doesn't make
> (whomever) tap the foot, anticipate the next note marvel at the
> technical command and overall cohesion of ideas, then there is not
> much to be said. We are on different planets.
hottttt :)
i'm listening to the clip for the 7th time in a row,
(make that 8th, it's too dam enjoyable :)
to try and really "feel" the dude's timing.
if anything it's very advanced and creative time wise,
totally deliberate, and it swings like a muhfuh?
the rhythm section's on point so that gives
him more freedom, too.
loving it. thanks for the link.
the aforementioned billy bean seems to have
similar influences?
as politically incorrect, subjective or insulting
as these discussions may be, they're interesting
and the clips produced as "evidence" are superb !
(make that the 9th listen :)
(10th :D)