Frank Zappa, Joe Pass (Tommy Tedesco)
6fingers
thread so posted here.
( http://www.stevelaury.com/html/s_zappa.html )
Joe Pass was a great jazz guitarist, one of the best in history. I got
to know Joe before his death due to Cancer. We had a lot in common. We
were both from New Jersey, played guitar, had recorded national
records, loved a good red wine, adored pasta and we were both dealing
with Cancer.
Joe had traveled the world-playing guitar with jazz great such as Ella
Fitzgarald and Oscar Peterson, and the list goes on. Joe also had some
really great stories to tell. Frankly, I enjoyed the behind the scene
stories as much as playing guitar with this jazz giant. Yes, I did
steal some licks from him. He was very generous. Joe liked my playing
because in his words, "I could swing." He loved my "modern Ideas" in
his words and actually stop me during our playing to find out exactly
what I was thinking and playing. It was a true honor to show the great
Joe Pass my simple concepts.
My favorite Joe Pass story is the Frank Zappa saga. I had read in many
publications about Frank Zappa that said he was a gifted jazz
guitarist, one of the best in the world. I had a problem with this
propaganda because on his recordings he played very lack luster rock
and roll solos.
Joe and Tommy Tedesco were doing a NAMM show in Anaheim California in
the early 1980s. For the folks who do not know who Tommy Tedesco was,
most of all the TV themes and movie scores, with guitar, Tommy Tedesco
played them all from the 1950s through the 1970s. He was the busiest
session guitarist in Hollywood at this time always getting "First
Call." Aside from these accomplishments, Tommy was a great jazz
guitarist also.
The story goes like this according to Joe Pass and I'm paraphrasing:
"Tommy and I were both very excited to hear the Frank Zappa would be
gracing our small stage that day at the NAMM show." Joe went on to say
"In fact I was nervous, my palms were sweating, I had read and heard
that this man was one of the greatest guitarists and composers of all
time, like a modern day Mozart."
"We played a set, we waited, no Zappa, we played another set, still no
Zappa. By this time, the suspense was killing both Tedesco and
myself," (myself meaning Joe Pass.)
"At last, we see a dark haired man wearing a black long cape
surrounded by a flock of worshipers coming toward our stage. We had to
stop playing because there was complete chaos around our booth as
Zappa was signing autographs and his fans were trying to touch his
garment."
"After an hour of worship and autographs, he picks up a guitar and
bangs out a couple of loud bar chords. Zappa turns to Tommy and asks,
'What do you guys what to play?'" Joe Pass started to rattle off tunes
like Giant Steps, a John Coltrane classic, hey, Joe said, "we figured
this Zappa guy is the best, lets play the most demanding music
possible."
"After requesting more then two dozen standards, we realized this guy
couldn't play any standards, not one. We ended up playing a TOO loud
12 bar blues, that's all Frank could play. It was pathetic."
Both Tommy Tedesco and Joe Pass decided to take a very long break and
escape, outside at least until Zappa left.
It just goes to show you that you can never believe what you read.
Until you, the listener actually hear the musician play, only then can
you make your own judgment. Remember magazine articles are written by
non musician journalist and in many cases can be pure propaganda.
God bless Joe Pass and Tommy Tedesco! (end)
Frank Zappa = Great comedian / so-so guitar player (think Henny
Youngman with a guitar)
Joe Pass = Great player / TERRIBLE comedian (think George Goebell with
chops)
Tommy Tedesco = Great player / great comedian (think Tommy Tedesco !)
Comments invited.....................tootles !
Greger Hoel
<joey6f...@gmail.com>:
> Love this story, didn't want it to get lost at the end of an older
> thread so posted here.
(story snipped for brevity)
Right.. Zappa didn't know any standards, so they had to play a 12 bar
blues, and to add insult to injury he played it too loud!?!
Yeah, Frank Zappa was a real llama. *sigh*
But relax, in a few years no one will remember Zappa. Who cares if he
composed a million tunes, from doo-wop to modern, extremly complex atonal
music? Compared to a real artist who's been shedding standards for 30
years, he's clearly just an upstart asshole. Tommy Tedesco and Joe Pass,
OTOH, will be rightfully worshipped until the end of time.
--
Always cross a vampire; never moon a werewolf
heat...@gmail.com
> På Tue, 20 Oct 2009 19:48:30 +0200, skrev 6fingers
> <joey6fing...@gmail.com>:
Beauty is truly in the eye of the beholder.
Krish
> På Tue, 20 Oct 2009 19:48:30 +0200, skrev 6fingers
> <joey6fing...@gmail.com>:
heh....
i love Joe Pass dearly.. and Tedesco is great.
but Zappa might be one of the greatest composers/band leaders ever.
hes not a jazz guitarist, and hes not an amazing technician on the
guitar, but his "loud rock guitar soloing" is some of the best there
is. very unique sound/phrasing.
and while id never want to choose one over the other, Zappa has some
absolutely brilliant music over his long career. he certainly had some
crap in there too. but when ya make 70+ albums, you cant please
everybody.
Biffy the Elephant Shrew
> Tommy Tedesco = Great player / great comedian (think Tommy Tedesco !)
>
> Comments invited.....................tootles !
I smell bullshit. It's the 1980s, and Tommy Tedesco didn't know that
Frank Zappa wasn't a jazz guitarist? Hell, Tedesco even played on at
least one Zappa session in the '60s (Lumpy Gravy). According to
legend, Tedesco had heard that Zappa was a "freak," so he showed up
for the session in costume. He was then embarrassed to find that it
was a "serious music" session, and the music he was given was too hard
for him to sight read.
Your pal,
Biffy the Elephant Shrew
Greger Hoel
<biffy...@aol.com>:
> I smell bullshit. It's the 1980s, and Tommy Tedesco didn't know that
> Frank Zappa wasn't a jazz guitarist?
Yeah, it was weak, I admit, of the rest of us to buy into it. Can you even
imagine FZ wearing a long cape and signing autographs for an hour in the
eighties? No, it doesn't wash.
> Hell, Tedesco even played on at
> least one Zappa session in the '60s (Lumpy Gravy).
You're absolutely right:
http://www.zappa.com/fz/discography/1968lumpygravy.html
Tim McNamara
"Greger Hoel" <gre...@blowme.com> wrote:
> P� Tue, 20 Oct 2009 19:48:30 +0200, skrev 6fingers
Well, Frank was an interesting guy who must be taken in his own terms.
He was not concerned with being likeable, accepted by the public or even
thought sane. He pursued what interested him. In that he was like
Pass, maybe not in many other ways. Pass's interest was improvisation
in performance, though, and Zappa's was composition.
Frank wasn't a jazz musician, exactly; nor was he exactly a rock
musician. He was.... just Frank Zappa. His catalog repays listening
with an odd combination of some magnificent music, some bombast and a
very idiosyncratic sense of humor. I like some of it and find some of
it off-putting.
"Blessed Relief" is worth adding to one's repertoire and is in the old
Real Book. It's a pretty straightforward jazz waltz with some odd
corners in the melody. There's a few performances on YouTube although I
don't think that any of the ones I found a while back were performed by
Frank.
FWIW, the story of Frank's friendship with Pass may be apocryphal, but
Frank was good friends with Daniel Schorr of public radio fame. He
offered an interesting eulogy to Zappa shortly after his death.
According to Schorr's WikiPedia entry, "Schorr made an appearance with
Zappa on February 10, 1988, where he sang 'It Ain't Necessarily So' and
'Summertime'." So Frank must have learned a couple of standards after
the situation with Pass and Tedesco! ;-)
Gerry
> On Oct 20, 2:11�pm, "Greger Hoel" <greg...@blowme.com> wrote:
>> P� Tue, 20 Oct 2009 19:48:30 +0200, skrev 6fingers �
I wish somebody would compare Pass and Zappa to Pepe Romero and Ravi
Shankar. Then we'd have some real scope to this discussion.
--
Dogmatism kills jazz. Iconoclasm kills rock. Rock dulls scissors.
Gerry
> Sorry... WHO is this guy? Dissing Zappa's colorful and creative
> playing (Lack-luster? Huh?) and insisting Joe Pass wanted to steal
> HIS licks??
He's a guy from the internet. It MUST be true!
rpjazzguitar
> On 2009-10-20 11:42:42 -0700, Phil <pdema...@yahoo.com> said:
>
> > Sorry... WHO is this guy? Dissing Zappa's colorful and creative
> > playing (Lack-luster? Huh?) and insisting Joe Pass wanted to steal
> > HIS licks??
>
> He's a guy from the internet. It MUST be true!
> --
> Dogmatism kills jazz. Iconoclasm kills rock. Rock dulls scissors.
Anybody who doesn't know any standards must suck. End of story.
Phil
I know you replied tonuge in cheek, but... "Peaches In Regalia" and
"Son of Mr. Green Genes" are in my real book. Apparently Frank wrote
his own "standards", and they appear alongside jazz classics by
Ellington, Shorter, Golson, Mercer, Dameron, Jobim, etc., etc..
Joe Finn
>i love Joe Pass dearly.. and Tedesco is great.
>but Zappa might be one of the greatest composers/band leaders ever.
>hes not a jazz guitarist, and hes not an amazing technician on the
>guitar, but his "loud rock guitar soloing" is some of the best there
>is. very unique sound/phrasing.
>and while id never want to choose one over the other, Zappa has some
>absolutely brilliant music over his long career. he certainly had some
>crap in there too. but when ya make 70+ albums, you cant please
>everybody.
That's a good point about Zappa's prolific output as a composer and
recording artist. He actually lived in the studio and routinely put in 12
and 16 hours a day. The sheer amount of music he recorded is pretty amazing.
.....joe
--
Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net
Fuzztone, Ammo
>
> "Son of Mr. Green Genes" are in my real book. Apparently Frank wrote
> his own "standards", and they appear alongside jazz classics by
> Ellington, Shorter, Golson, Mercer, Dameron, Jobim, etc., etc..
King Kong too!
I got my first fake book in 1976 and some of its Standards were still
on the pop charts.
How could any jazz guitarist not be aware of Hot Rats (1969) and Waka/
Jawaka (1972)?
The great Joe Pass must have been busy practicing I Got Rhythm.
If it ain't 50 years old and sung on Broadway, it can't be any good.
Why didn't Tedesco and Pass just play a modal vamp?
Oh yeah, real jazz guitarists don't use the wah-wah pedal!
This story sounds like Pass was a has-been, jealous of another
guitarist who had popular appeal. It puts Pass in a bad light.
AMMO
terra...@gmail.com
No need to diss Joe Pass, IMO : I don't believe this story is true
anyway.
BTW I like 'em both JP and FZ.
Phil
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
Agreed, both are great in their mileu. Why is music like a football
game, with winners and losers, to some folks?
Carl
questionable value of the original anecdote. I was not a Frank Zappa fan
myself so I'm not defending him per se, but I'd like to know how Pass and
Tedesco would have done had the shoe been on the other foot and they were
invited onto the stage and asked to play tunes that Zappa knew well. If
knowing old jazz standards defines the worth of an artist, how many famous
rock and blues guitarists would be downgraded in level? I wonder if Clapton
or BB King can play Giant Steps without advance warning, if at all?
Ceci Bousquet
Steve Vai On His Audition for Frank Zappa's Band
interesting if you haven't seen it before
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6cplMM3d_Q
terra...@gmail.com
ES175_Player
http://www.stevelaury.com/html/s_zappa.html
Was an actual link on Steve Laury's home page for a few years. I
believed it when I read it then and I belive it now..
Interesting, I've notice the link has disappeared from his home page.
It used to be under the "Stories from the road link".
Here's Steve's current home page.
http://www.stevelaury.com/html/index2.shtml
Only reason I bring it up is that I've been following his music off
and on for a few years via web. I think he's a wonderful guitarist.
I'm guessing he pulled the Zappa thread down cause all the flack it
stirred up, just like here..
Gerry
> The great Joe Pass must have been busy practicing I Got Rhythm.
> If it ain't 50 years old and sung on Broadway, it can't be any good.
> Why didn't Tedesco and Pass just play a modal vamp?
You should remember that this story came from a guy who got it from
another guy who posted in on the internets, that series of tubes. As
the story itself sounds like an obvious and blatant crock of shit,
there's not much need to suss out Joe's and Tommy's thinking.
Gerry
> Agreed, both are great in their mileu. Why is music like a football
> game, with winners and losers, to some folks?
In my viewpoint:
To Americans EVERYthing is like football, and is about winners and
losers. It seems that here we have celebrities or stars of some sort,
and we have losers. Two types of humans. Maybe children make up a third
but it seems when given the opportunity people want to classify them as
stars or losers too.
Maybe if we spent less time locked on football, baseball and basketball
as the font of all things valuable in our society we wouldn't feel that
way. In the wame way, politics seemed to have a lot of focus on policy
matters 25 years ago. Now it's all about spin and posture and policy is
kind of forgotten.
We should change this, but first let's get the series out of the way...
Gerry
I'm not sure whether Laury is lying or whether Tedesco was having him
on or both. Stories about Zappa tend to expand out of all proportion
to veracity. But I guess It's a moot point exactly where the story in
the game "telephone" begins to break down.
heat...@gmail.com
> That link at the top of this thread
>
> http://www.stevelaury.com/html/s_zappa.html
>
> Was an actual link on Steve Laury's home page for a few years. I
> believed it when I read it then and I belive it now..
Why, what evidence is there that this is true?
Greger Hoel
<heat...@gmail.com>:
The anecdote thrashes the rock star and aggrandizes the jazz guitarists.
How can it not be true?!
kentburnside
wrote:
Yes, and the idea of Joe Pass being "nervous," with "sweaty palms,"
and "the suspense was killing" both him and Tedesco? Not a chance.
And Zappa being mobbed by followers at a NAMM show? No way, not even
during the "Valley Girl" era.