Insanely overpriced Guild Benedettos?
Geoff Duncan
> > Never played one, but maybe it's a better mousetrap.
>
> That's a Guild Stuart, not a Benedetto, that Legato sold for under $5000.
> The Stuart and Artist Award were redesigned by BB, but they're manufactured
> on the Guild production line.
Gosh... and I got my pre-Benedetto Guild Stuart X-700 for under $1500
(used, but you'd never have known), and it's a lovely blonde rather than
a yucky dark sunburst. :-)
So far as I can tell, Benedetto's ~$3500 street-price redesign of the
Stuart X-700 amounts to:
* 25 9/16" scale rather than 24 3/4" scale
* Benedetto A-6 humbuckers
* Inlaid Bennedetto signature at the 19th fret
Perhaps there were some bracing and top-tuning changes to account for
the longer scale; dunno.
I strongly prefer the shorter scale for a jazz archtop, but I fully
acknowledge other players prefer longer scale lengths (as do I for other
instruments). The Guild pickups in my X-700 haven't floored me, they
haven't dissappointed me either, and I have no current plans to replace
them. The "signature" kinda bugs me: personally, I don't want anyone's
name but my own on a guitar. :-)
Either way, I rate my X-700 highly - it's been keeping up with L-4s,
L-5s, and some custom archtops costing four to ten times what I paid -
and I'm sure the redesigned X-700 models are of similar quality. But at
$5K, they're out of my league for the rest of my foreseeable natural
life.
gd
--
Email sent to this address won't reach me or anyone else.
Winston Castro
wrote:
>That's chutzpa.
>
>
Yes, but the 'c' is a thousand dollar cost option...
Winston Castro
>
>> Never played one, but maybe it's a better mousetrap.
>
>Musically speaking, a guitar is only as "good" as the person playing it.
>
>But I don't think we're talking about purely musical considerations here.
>For many players the "personality cult" of the instrument is more important
>than the music. It all depends on your point of view.
>
I'm not sure why they decided to screw with the Artist Award, I have
not seen the new ones but the older ones were fine enough instruments
to make me wonder if any "improvements" to them will actually be
detriments. I guess what I'm saying is I liked the older ones in just
about every respect, appearance, size, playibilty, tone, etc...
Guild should have just let Bob design a new guitar model and let him
run with it from there. I don't like the idea of redesigning the AA,
but that is of course only my opinion. Then again I'm an engineer and
I live by the adage- If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Steve Grenadier
While they are obviously beautiful guitars, there is no way you can
convince me that they are better than a Gibson L5 or Johnny Smith. Yes,
the flame is very pretty, but I don't think it was the stripes on the
side of Wes' L5 that made it sound so good...
Steve
Vinyltap wrote:
> Okay, I gotta say it....who are these guys
> kidding? If well heeled collectors want to
> stand in line to pay the recently quadrupled
> price of an actual Benedetto I guess that's
> their priviledge. But the Guilds for what they're
> asking? I mean, a fine artist award
> can always be had for three or four thousand
> dollars, can't it? I guess you've got to admire
> Benedetto/Guild for hutzpa at least.
>
Bruce Clawson
>
> "David C. Stephens" <dcs...@swbell.net> wrote:
>
> > > Never played one, but maybe it's a better mousetrap.
> >
> > That's a Guild Stuart, not a Benedetto, that Legato sold for under $5000.
> > The Stuart and Artist Award were redesigned by BB, but they're manufactured
> > on the Guild production line.
>
> Gosh... and I got my pre-Benedetto Guild Stuart X-700 for under $1500
> (used, but you'd never have known), and it's a lovely blonde rather than
> a yucky dark sunburst. :-)
>
> So far as I can tell, Benedetto's ~$3500 street-price redesign of the
> Stuart X-700 amounts to:
>
> * 25 9/16" scale rather than 24 3/4" scale
>
> * Benedetto A-6 humbuckers
>
> * Inlaid Bennedetto signature at the 19th fret
>
> Perhaps there were some bracing and top-tuning changes to account for
> the longer scale; dunno.
>
>
> Either way, I rate my X-700 highly - it's been keeping up with L-4s,
> L-5s, and some custom archtops costing four to ten times what I paid -
> and I'm sure the redesigned X-700 models are of similar quality. But at
> $5K, they're out of my league for the rest of my foreseeable natural
> life.
>
> gd
I think the big difference, and I may be wrong, that there is no center
block in the new X-700's. Anyone know for sure? If there isn't a big 'ol
hunk of maple in the middle of the guitar I think that it would be a
very different beast than the pre-Benedetto Stuart I play.
Bruce
Vinyltap
Vincent McKnight
I mean, a fine artist award
> can always be had for three or four thousand
> dollars, can't it? I guess you've got to admire
> Benedetto/Guild for hutzpa at least.
>
I spoke to Bill Fender at Legato and he suggests that Benedetto has access
to better quality wood through Guild and that these are fine instruments.
And, look one just sold by Bill for just under $5,000.00.
http://www.gbase.com/guitar_picture.asp?guitar=246468&home=dealer
Bill says that Benedetto is down there all over the production line,
maintaining quality.
Never played one, but maybe it's a better mousetrap.
Vince
Tom Jaffe
IvanDRodriguez
>Benedetto/Guild for hutzpa at least. >
Well, I was thinking more along the lines of " cojones" .. but I suppose we're
thinking along the same lines anyway...LOL
It's a nice instrument..but yeah... way to much...
Ivan
David C. Stephens
"Vincent McKnight" <blue...@ex-pressnet.com> wrote in message
news:tb3aoic...@corp.supernews.com...
That's a Guild Stuart, not a Benedetto, that Legato sold for under $5000.
The Stuart and Artist Award were redesigned by BB, but they're manufactured
on the Guild production line.
The Fratello, Manhattan and other 'Benedetto' models are built by a special
group of Guild luthiers, under BB's supervision.
The Benedetto models seem expensive to me, but the proof is in the pudding.
They're selling as fast as they're being built.
Dave
David Rastall
news:tb3aoic...@corp.supernews.com...
> Bill says that Benedetto is down there all over the production line,
> maintaining quality.
He maintains the quality of his name. You're paying for the name.
Benedetto may really be on to something that makes his guitars twenty times
"better" than any others, and therefore twenty times more expensive, but
personally I can't see it. True, those guitars are beautifully designed and
gorgeously finished and all of that, but are those cosmetic refinements
worth tens of thousands of dollars per unit.
I know this: he charges those high prices because he can: because people
will pay them. The "value" of anything is what people are willing to pay.
Okay, playability, quality of craftsmanship or quality of materials...those
things are fine but they exist in guitars that cost only a fraction of a
Benedetto. Still, if you want to drive a Ferrari...
> Never played one, but maybe it's a better mousetrap.
That depends, in a manner of speaking, on your ability to catch mice.
Musically speaking, a guitar is only as "good" as the person playing it.
But I don't think we're talking about purely musical considerations here.
For many players the "personality cult" of the instrument is more important
than the music. It all depends on your point of view.
David Rastall
Wolfe Axe
Well......They're setting up & supplying a new dealer network. A pal of mine
just signed on, and he's pretty nervous about the prices. Let's see how they
move at retail.
Jay Wolfe
Bruce Clawson
Jay,
Are they true hollow bodies?
Bruce
Geoff Duncan
> I think the big difference, and I may be wrong, that there is no center
> block in the new X-700's. Anyone know for sure?
Well, my 1999-ish pre-Bennedetto Guild X-700 Stuart does not have a
center black or posts; I have no reason to suspect mine is unique. I
assume the new redesigned X-700s are also true hollow-bodies.
I've spent quality time with two other X-700 Stuarts, one from 1996 and
one from (probably) the late 80's; they didn't have center blocks or
posts either. I also played an X-500T in a showroom a couple years ago
at the height of the Brian Setzer rockabilly/swing thing. It had a
butterknife Bigsby vibrato, was bright orange, and was obviously aimed
at a rockabilly/roots rock player, but I'm almost certain it didn't have
a block or posts either.
Hope that helps...
gd
--
Email sent to this address won't reach me or anyone else.
Bruce Clawson
Geoff,
I checked again, and son of a gun! what I thought was a center block was
was a very thick brace (I think mine is an '87 X-700). I'm going to have
to get in and look around with a little mirror just to really see what
is going on. Hmm, all these years I thought the thing had a center
block, so have others on the newsgroup. Thanks for the info.
Bruce
kaetae
There are not many guitarists who can afford a $20,000 guitar.
Actually there aren't many who can afford a $2,000 guitar.
You have to be among the wealthy to buy a good guitar
and most guitar players are far from wealthy.
Pt
Geoff Duncan
> > Well, my 1999-ish pre-Bennedetto Guild X-700 Stuart does not have a
> > center black or posts
>
> I checked again, and son of a gun! what I thought was a center block was
> was a very thick brace (I think mine is an '87 X-700). I'm going to have
> to get in and look around with a little mirror just to really see what
> is going on.
The braces in my X-700 aren't huge, though they're larger than the ones
in my smaller-bodied acoustic guitar. However, my X-700's top is
parallel-braced rather than using a more-common X-brace design. Thus,
the braces are pretty close to the f-holes and may loom large to the
observer. ;-)
I'm not sure of the merits of a parallel-braced top versus an X-brace
top; I remember my cheapo, beat-to-hell cello from my school years had a
parallel-braced top: you could see it clearly through the gap where the
back was coming loose. :-) An acquaintances 1940's L-5 is X-braced; he
recently did a major restoration on it and invited me over to see all
the innards. I haven't been able to peer inside too many other archtops,
but I think they've all been X-braced except maybe the Guild X-500
Palladin.
This is a guess, but I think X-bracing is more common on jazz archtops
today, and probably gives a warmer sound. Parallel bracing seems to have
been more common in the 20s and 30s - although it's still around today,
obviously - and gives more projection and a brighter tone. Again, this
is largely unsubstantiated: I'm sure archtop luthiers can give more
detail.
> Hmm, all these years I thought the thing had a center
> block, so have others on the newsgroup.
Well, if I'd ever had any doubt, the X-700s feedback in gigging
situations would have disabused me of any illusions about a block or
posts. Once did a blues gig with it where it truly howled. :-)
Dunlop212
Jim Kangas
horn players pay lots more than 2K for a good horn. AFAIK, violinists
will pay several times that for a top-notch bow. I think we guitarists
have been spoiled somewhat in that regard.
-Jim
Peter Grey
Peter
Geoff Duncan
> AFAIK, violinists will pay several times that for a top-notch bow.
> I think we guitarists have been spoiled somewhat in that regard.
Indeed. Recently, a cellist I know spent more on a bow than I've ever
spent on a car. (Well, sure, I drive a piece of junk.) The bow also cost
more than my three best instruments *combined*. Say what you like about
my car - I'll join in - but those instruments aren't exactly crap, even
if one's a bass.
Thomas F Brown
Me three disagree. You can get a perfectly giggable guitar
for $1000 or even under $500 if you're willing to audition
your way through a lot of instruments to find a gem. No
other instrumentalists have so many reasonably-priced options.
People pay more because they want to, not because they
need to.
In article <996gbv$6...@news-central.tiac.net>,
Thomas F Brown
Geoff Duncan <ge...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>
>Indeed. Recently, a cellist I know spent more on a bow than I've ever
>spent on a car. (Well, sure, I drive a piece of junk.) The bow also cost
>more than my three best instruments *combined*. Say what you like about
>my car - I'll join in - but those instruments aren't exactly crap, even
>if one's a bass.
Which reminds me that I've always wondered why there isn't more of a
market for vintage and luthier-built picks. I mean, you drop 20 grand
on a Benny and then you go and defile it with a 50 cent Jim Dunlop?
David C. Stephens
"Peter Grey" <pg...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:3AB6D1A1...@earthlink.net...
Peter Grey
Peter
Peter
"David C. Stephens" wrote:
At least a good flute is made out of sterling silver, sometimes gold, sometimes platinum. Ten grand is probably a cheapo silver model. My poor daughter is making due with a $2000 Yamaha! Dave
"Peter Grey" <pg...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:3AB6D1A1...@earthlink.net...A flute player I play with regularly paid over $10K for his flute. A $10,000 flute for God's sake! And it's not even a real instrument - no strings or wood or amps or anything!
MtthwMtchll
i, for one, think there is some truth to this statement - i have pretty much
devoted my life to music and have been making a living playing mostly jazz
guitar and i cannot afford the instruments that i want (nothing overly
extravagant:novax basic 8 ($3800),some sort of custom archtop 7 (starting
around $4000), Buscarino nylon 7 w/pickup ($4000) - i play 7 string so my
solutions are even more limited) I also have some students and amataeur
player-friends that have really nice guitars like benedettos and such (these
are usually middle-aged guys with good jobs who will never play out) the flip
side is that i should get off my butt and make some additional $ somehow. i do
think it's ironic, though, that, considering how much i love jazz guitar, i
cannot afford the instruments that i dream of - i know, the world isn't fair
Matt Mitchell
email: mattmitc...@hotmail.com
website: www.mp3.com/mattmitchell
Winston Castro
>>It's a shame where the guitar world is headed.
>>There are not many guitarists who can afford a $20,000 guitar.
>>Actually there aren't many who can afford a $2,000 guitar.
>>You have to be among the wealthy to buy a good guitar
>>and most guitar players are far from wealthy.
>>
>
>i, for one, think there is some truth to this statement - i have pretty much
>devoted my life to music and have been making a living playing mostly jazz
>guitar and i cannot afford the instruments that i want (nothing overly
>extravagant:novax basic 8 ($3800),some sort of custom archtop 7 (starting
>around $4000), Buscarino nylon 7 w/pickup ($4000) - i play 7 string so my
>solutions are even more limited) I also have some students and amataeur
>player-friends that have really nice guitars like benedettos and such (these
>are usually middle-aged guys with good jobs who will never play out)
On one had that's true, but there's more to consider;
The price of a handmade or hand-crafted anything has skyrocketed
beyond belief. And even buying a person's time as it were- Have a
plumber or repairman come out to your house lately? Handmade custom
guitars from a luthier will continue to go up in price significantly.
Adding to that frustration, society at large has gone nuts over
vintage gear. An original Tube Screamer pedal might sell at auction
for some ungodly sum of money, a mint condition 1966 Les Paul might
wipe out most people's bank accounts, etc... Investors, dot-com
millionaires, Japenese businessmen, and the like all drive up the
price of vitage gear to outrageous levels. What is a musician to think
of all this?
But just as the above facts are fairly undeniable, there are some
very fine low cost guitars out there, even as never before. Epiphones,
Ibanez and the like are fine playing and sounding intruments. In the
hands of a Joe Pass or a Jimmy Bruno, these low cost axes could sound
incredible IMO, rivaling the sound of $30,000 Benedettos, once
pick-ups, elctronics, and amps are brought into the equation.
I have no doubt in my mind if they said to Jimmy before a show
"Jimmy, your Benedetto just bit the dust in a tragic freak accident
and the only spare axe we have for you to play is an Epi Sheraton". I
bet he would get that $700 axe singing in ways no one would have
thought possible. Of course that's only my opinion, but that's the way
I see it.
Sure there will always be someone paying as much as a small house
for a guitar. No doubt in serach of some elusive tone, mojo,
workmanship, materials, or some dynamic as far as playibility or
whatever. If I had the money to blow, I'd probably do the same.
Geoff Duncan
> Which reminds me that I've always wondered why there isn't more of a
> market for vintage and luthier-built picks. I mean, you drop 20 grand
> on a Benny and then you go and defile it with a 50 cent Jim Dunlop?
Hey, my nails and fingertips were *free.* And if I owned a $20K
Benedetto, I wouldn't let them near it either. :-)
Dunlop212
have ever been. For example, a super 400 was called that when it came
out, because it cost $400 (they weren't discounted, either). Doesn't
sound like much, unless you stop to consider that you could buy a new
car for $400 at about the same time. OTOH, there are many fine guitars
available now for reasonable prices, including heritages, for less than
$2,000. There was a guy on this NG selling a nice Barney for under
$2,000. On top of this, you have the computer cut American guitars like
the Taylors and Tacomas. Anybody played a Big Baby Taylor? A phenomenol
bargain.
Frankly, IMO, there's a bit of a glut in the boutique crafted archtop
market. For every Benedetto, there's a lot of other talented guys who
are being underpaid for their fine work.
On the vintage stuff, I totally disagree. The stupid prices are being
paid for things like custom colored fenders and Les Pauls. The prices of
archtops have been depressed for years. If you get away from the
celebrity models, there are a lot of terrific bargains: Gibson L10s and
L12s (inexplicably less valuable than L7s), Gretsch Country Clubs
(really, any gretsch never played by Setzer-Harrison-Atkins), and lots
of great Japanese jazz boxes from the 70s.
Tom Lippincott
>devoted my life to music and have been making a living playing mostly jazz
>guitar and i cannot afford the instruments that i want (nothing overly
>extravagant:novax basic 8 ($3800),some sort of custom archtop 7 (starting
>around $4000), Buscarino nylon 7 w/pickup ($4000) - i play 7 string so my
>solutions are even more limited) I also have some students and amataeur
>player-friends that have really nice guitars like benedettos and such (these
>are usually middle-aged guys with good jobs who will never play out) the flip
>side is that i should get off my butt and make some additional $ somehow. i
>do
>think it's ironic, though, that, considering how much i love jazz guitar, i
>cannot afford the instruments that i dream of - i know, the world isn't fair
>
>
>
>
>
>Matt Mitchell
I know it's not that much cheaper but for an 8 string you may want to consider
checking out Conklin guitars as well. They're building me an 8 string and the
basic price is $2799 (although I have enough options added that mine is more
like $3200.) I'm not sure if they do the same Charlie Hunter setup with split
treble and bass strings; if they do I'm sure it costs extra.
Tom Lippincott
Guitarist, Composer, Teacher
audio samples, articles, CD's at:
http://www.tomlippincott.com
Joe Finn
>
> I know it's not that much cheaper but for an 8 string you may want to consider
> checking out Conklin guitars as well. They're building me an 8 string and the
> basic price is $2799 (although I have enough options added that mine is more
> like $3200.) I'm not sure if they do the same Charlie Hunter setup with split
> treble and bass strings; if they do I'm sure it costs extra.
>
This is intriguing, Tom. You will sound amazing on eight strings! Good luck and
please keep us up to date. .....joe
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David Rastall
news:996gbv$6...@news-central.tiac.net...
> ...I'm not sure about a $20,000 guitar, but
> horn players pay lots more than 2K for a good horn. AFAIK, violinists
> will pay several times that for a top-notch bow. I think we guitarists
> have been spoiled somewhat in that regard.
Yep, I agree with that. One way of looking at this topic of high-priced
guitars is to compare what we pay with what other musicians have to pay just
to get their foot in the door. It's not unusual to find violin bows ranging
in value from $30,000 on up. I remember reading about one violinist who has
a collection of bows, one of which is worth $100,000! A hundred thousand
bucks for a violin bow!!! Symphony orchestra players are expected to play
on high-end instruments. It's nothing for a violinist in an orchestra to be
playing a $20,000 instrument: in fact, more often than not it's expected.
Concert soloists pay far more than that.
SO, all in all, we're not that bad off.
David Rastall
phil
to want. Nor does it add to the love of the instrument.That's why good
copies of originals exist. Most luthiers would go belly up if the only
market for their artwork was professional jazz guitarists.
The world balances out it's unfairness by giving you audiences who probably
can't tell the difference anyway.
Smile, You have the talent., no one can buy that.
"Tom Lippincott" <tomli...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20010321001204...@ng-ft1.aol.com...
Arthur Quinn
appreciating assets which can easily be sold many years hence to provide
a pension or whatever. I'm not so sure that the same can be said of any
guitars, except perhaps some classical guitars.
Arthur
--
Arthur Quinn
real-email arthur at bella dash cat dot demon dot co dot uk
Tom Lippincott
>and
>please keep us up to date. .....joe
>
okay; I just put down a deposit today, so I'll keep the group apprised. I was
worried that people were getting sick of hearing me talk about my 8 string
since for several years I've been trying to cobble one together from parts but
I finally gave up and decided to have a "real" one built.
Vinyltap
>in value from $30,000 on up. I remember >reading about one violinist who has
>a collection of bows, one of which is >worth $100,000!
I'm not going to make excuses for guitars
marketed at too high a price.
Overall, instruments in the highest price ranges are vintage. Violinists and
upright
bass players are buying stuff that's often over a hundred years old. In guitars
the finest vintage examples go for the top dollar. Then, next, you have the
supposedly exclusive luthiers selling instruments that are essentially new.
It's questionable indeed if these are worth the
top dollar often being asked. Then at the bottom you have stuff made by major
manufacturers as in the case of the Guild Benedettos. They may look and play
like Benedettos but of course they never will be. They are Guilds. And until
now, no one
payed this kind of bread for a Guild.
Alex Squitieri
viny...@aol.com (Vinyltap) wrote:
> bass players are buying stuff that's often over a hundred years old.
Hah. My cheap German plywood is not quite 100 years old , and I can get
about $2-2.5K for it with its nice bag. Real basses start about $5K if
you're lucky. One teacher had an english 7/8, probably worth about $80K
now, another had a circa 1690 Italian worth probably $150K (very beaten
up). These are everyday playing instruments. The late Warren Benfield of
the Chicago Symphony really preferred his 1610 Italian, worth , well, a
lot more.
While I'm learning guitar, I'm glad a friend is loaning me his ES-175, so
I don't have to sell my bass.
cheers
Alex