Odd meter: 7=3+4 or 4+3
Mark Kleinhaut
Following up on some of the polyrhythm posts that are really discussing odd
meter (Jack and Joey), I was wondering how you gus approach the issue of
subdividing measures, or if you even do this, for counting purposes.
When I play All the Things in 7, I find it lays nicely as a 4+3. I find
myself then thinking this way when soloing, though I've never been really
comfortable with the results. I'm wondering how others approach this idea
of subdividing?
The thing that's bringing this to the fore right now (for me) is that my
group is working on a new composition that's in 7/8 and the melody does things
which keep the accents of 4-3 and 3-4 flipping back and forth a bit, so accross
the barlines I'm seeing groups of 6 beats and then 8 beats. Bottom line
is this tune is kick our butts...mine especially. I'll get it down if I
shed it long enough, but it's been plenty of frustrating....it's even made
me consider buying a metronome for god's sake. Any tips?
--------------------Mark Kleinhaut
markkl...@hotmail.com
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Pat Smith
Birds of Fire. I had a hell of time learning that tune and had to just
abosorb the feel because I couldn't count the sob and play it at the
same time. In 7 I like to feel 3-3-1 or 1-3-3 if I think anything with 4
I sink like a stone. Honestly, odd times aren't my long suit
Jack A. Zucker
feeling any of these times is to be able to play them while tapping your
foot in 4 the whole time. He showed me by playing various odd time sigs
while keeping a 4 to the bar pattern going with the bass drum or ride
cymbol, accenting the downbeat of every 4/4 measure. He can play
poly-time-sigs at will, superimposing them over any other time without
thinking about it. The bottom line here is that once you have done it
enough, it's as second nature as anything else we take for granted. Of
course, Matt is unreal. He can play everything from Adam Nussbaum to Elvin
Jones to Chad Wackerman to Billy Cobham. Plus he plays piano and wants to
take guitar lessons from me. Hopefully, I'll learn something about
poly-rhythms in exchange...
--
web: http://www.jackzucker.com
"Mark Kleinhaut" <markkl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d46...@spamkiller.newsgroups.com...
Mark Kleinhaut
"Jack A. Zucker" <j...@jackzucker.com> wrote:
>Matt Perko (the amazing wonder-drummer from NE ohio) told me the trick to
>feeling any of these times is to be able to play them while tapping your
>foot in 4 the whole time. He showed me by playing various odd time sigs
>while keeping a 4 to the bar pattern going with the bass drum or ride
>cymbol, accenting the downbeat of every 4/4 measure.
GULP!!
He can play
>poly-time-sigs at will, superimposing them over any other time without
>thinking about it.
GULP!!
Dan Adler
> me consider buying a metronome for god's sake. Any tips?
>
You should have asked Vic Juris when you met him. The stuff they do
with odd meters in the Liebman group is amazing. There is a song they
do in 5/4 but with accents on upbeats - I can't even count along, let
alone play along!
As I understand it, the only people who have a systematized approach
to odd meters is the Indian Konnakol system that Mclaughlin studied.
Maybe you can find someone who knows that.
kuboken
> meter (Jack and Joey), I was wondering how you gus approach the issue of
> subdividing measures, or if you even do this, for counting purposes.
>
> When I play All the Things in 7, I find it lays nicely as a 4+3. I find
> myself then thinking this way when soloing, though I've never been really
> comfortable with the results. I'm wondering how others approach this idea
> of subdividing?
>
> The thing that's bringing this to the fore right now (for me) is that my
> group is working on a new composition that's in 7/8 and the melody does things
> which keep the accents of 4-3 and 3-4 flipping back and forth a bit, so accross
> the barlines I'm seeing groups of 6 beats and then 8 beats. Bottom line
> is this tune is kick our butts...mine especially. I'll get it down if I
> shed it long enough, but it's been plenty of frustrating....it's even made
> me consider buying a metronome for god's sake. Any tips?
>
I'm no expert on odd meters, but on some of the faster stuff (like
Paradox Trio stuff) I find it much easier to count everything in
clusters of 2 and 3... So for the 7/8, you can count a 2-2-3 clave
(one-two, one-two, one-two-three). The 10/8 is easy to count as
3-2-2-3 (which I think is the Bulgarian dance rythym...) etc...
Ken
NJD
markkl...@hotmail.com says...
>
> "Jack A. Zucker" <j...@jackzucker.com> wrote:
> >Matt Perko (the amazing wonder-drummer from NE ohio) told me the trick to
> >feeling any of these times is to be able to play them while tapping your
> >foot in 4 the whole time. He showed me by playing various odd time sigs
> >while keeping a 4 to the bar pattern going with the bass drum or ride
> >cymbol, accenting the downbeat of every 4/4 measure.
>
> GULP!!
>
> He can play
> >poly-time-sigs at will, superimposing them over any other time without
> >thinking about it.
>
> GULP!!
Yeah really.
Jim can play three separate times at once and it just amazes me. I
figure it comes from many years of practice. These combinations are now
just second nature.
The only way I can handle them is to work them out on a computer and
then learn by playing along. Even then, I have trouble.
I think it's very difficult.
--
Nick Delonas
http://www.ironia.net
http://www.cultv.com
Tom Walls
d...@danadler.com says...
material?
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
http://www.arts.cornell.edu/zeus/
Tom Walls
kubo...@yahoo.com says...
done; however, in my experience, some material sounds like a duple
pattern (say 6/4) with the addition of an extra beat. It's easy to hear
as the addition of a pickup leading into the following bar.
Joey Goldstein
really natural to lots of people and can be pulled off without too much retraining.
Of course all sorts of other subdivisions are possible:
3+4
3+3+1
1+3+3
3+1+3
2+3+2
Did you know that the and of 4 divides a bar of 7 into two equal halves?
So 2 over 7 is:
3&1/2 + 3&1/2 (i.e. 3 quarter notes tied to an 1/8 - twice)
4 over 7 would be:
1/4 note tied to 3 1/16ths + 1/16 tied to a quarter tied to an 1/8 + 1/8
tied to a quarter tied to 1 1/16th + 3 1/16ths tied to a 1/4.
I.e. each sub pulse is 7 1/16th notes long.
In 5/4 the half way point is the and of 3.
I'm no expert but i suppose the only way to get musical with any of
these more novel devices is to just practice them and see waht comes out!
Listening to Brad Mehldau while counting couldn't hurt either.
--
Joey Goldstein
Guitarist/Jazz Recording Artist/Teacher
Home Page: http://www.joeygoldstein.com
Email: <joegold AT sympatico DOT ca>
Joe Finn
news:3D46B21F...@pacbell.net...
the odd meter patterns into different subdivisions. The drummer might play
seven as 3-3-1 while the bass played 4-3. This is part of what gave their
ensemble improv it's density and complex textures.
Another example is Jack Dejohnette's Nine Over Reggae co-written by Pat
Metheny. Different subdivisions are spread out through the rhythm section
and a synth pattern. These contrast with the melodic line and what the
soloists are playing. Metheny has done several other compositions along
these lines. .....joe
--
Visit me on the web. www.JoeFinn.net
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Jurupari
>seven as 3-3-1 while the bass played 4-3. This is part of what gave their
>ensemble improv it's density and complex textures.
that was what gave Dance of Maya its character - that 14/8 triplet feel and the
7/4 on top of it. I read somewher that Maya was a goddess of confusion - aptly
named.
Clif Kuplen
Michael Ellenberger
rhythms. Like playing a bop tune with an AABA form and "knowing" when the B
section happens. Is this the consensus?
I can feel your pain especially when you start hearing 6 and 8 beats. Dave
Holland told me he wrote in odd meters to keep the musicians interested.
Now he was playing with a tough crowd!
Mike
--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Mike Ellenberger
Listen to some soundclips at
http://home.att.net/~grumpmeister/MikesJazzPage.html
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
"Mark Kleinhaut" <markkl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d46...@spamkiller.newsgroups.com...
>
Joe Finn
>
> that was what gave Dance of Maya its character - that 14/8 triplet feel
and the
> 7/4 on top of it. I read somewher that Maya was a goddess of confusion -
aptly
> named.
>
I work with a drummer named Gene Garone. He showed me how he breaks up odd
meters. In seven he might go 4-3 with the snare and 3-3-1with the bass while
floating over the whole thing with an swinging eighth note ride. This is
amazing to me but to him it's second nature. In the midst of this he can
throw in fills that break the time up into even more complex fragments with
syncopation, dynamics and expression. .......joe
--
Visit me on the web. www.JoeFinn.net
> Clif Kuplen
Nazodesu
wrote:
> I work with a drummer named Gene Garone. He showed me how he breaks up odd
> meters. In seven he might go 4-3 with the snare and 3-3-1with the bass while
> floating over the whole thing with an swinging eighth note ride. This is
> amazing to me but to him it's second nature. In the midst of this he can
> throw in fills that break the time up into even more complex fragments with
> syncopation, dynamics and expression.
A few of those many wasted hours stuck in traffic with Stone's drum
rudiments can do wonders for your time...
Dan Adler
> >
> Dan, do you know of any recordings with Vic and Lieb playing this type of
> material?
I was referring to Aebersold volume 81. There's a play-along version
and there is one with Liebman soloing. I have both, and find them both
very valuable. Vic Juris does about 50% of the comping (the rest is
piano) but obviously he has no solos.
Dan Adler
>
> GULP!!
>
It's probably not a coincidence that so many of the great players on
piano and sax are also closet drummers. When I studied with Bob Berg
he said he and Steve Grossman would practice for hours, one drumming
and the other soloing.
Similarly, Joe Lovano is a great drummer. In a masterclass he was
asked why he plays drums, and he said that harmony and melody come
from your brain, but rhythm is something you have to physically feel
in your body, so drumming is critical to him.
Mark Kleinhaut
The indian rhythmic solfage (sp?) would make a lot of sense, I actually had
some of that in college many moons ago but forgot all the basic syllables.
I never put it to use so not surprising it didn't stick.
Last night I spent a couple of hours working this tune, just comping in 7,
and I found a number of singable phrases that are making it go much easier,
so I think singing this is the key (at least for me).
I respect immensely the drummers who can play in 3 meters at once and overlay
these things simultaneously. For them, the indendence issue is critical
to their playing. While this may be something to aspire to, for me the more
immediate need is to just play in the one meter convincingly and creatively,
so tapping in four while playing in 7 is not a priority.
Mark Kleinhaut
That does it! My fantasy has always been to take up drumset. I've been
hand drumming on desks and such for my whole life (even got tossed out of
a couple of high school classes for it). I think a drum kit in our spare
room will fit perfectly....I can't wait to go home and tell my wife!
Nazodesu
<d...@danadler.com> wrote:
> It's probably not a coincidence that so many of the great players on
> piano and sax are also closet drummers. When I studied with Bob Berg
> he said he and Steve Grossman would practice for hours, one drumming
> and the other soloing.
>
> Similarly, Joe Lovano is a great drummer. In a masterclass he was
> asked why he plays drums, and he said that harmony and melody come
> from your brain, but rhythm is something you have to physically feel
> in your body, so drumming is critical to him.
Long ago someone related that in a Liebman master class he recommended
that everybody learn to tap-dance for the same reasons.
Joey Goldstein
Doesn't Liebman have a bad leg, maybe from childhood polio? Strange then
for him to be giving out this type of advice! <g>
Paul Sanwald
>
> I'm no expert on odd meters, but on some of the faster stuff (like
> Paradox Trio stuff) I find it much easier to count everything in
> clusters of 2 and 3... So for the 7/8, you can count a 2-2-3 clave
> (one-two, one-two, one-two-three). The 10/8 is easy to count as
> 3-2-2-3 (which I think is the Bulgarian dance rythym...) etc...
>
I'm no expert either, but when I studied with brad shepik he showed me
how to count some of that faster stuff. he feels it in combinations of
long and short for triple meters (6/8, 11/8, etc) I think. so one way
to do it is instead of counting 1 2 1 2 1 2 3 for 7/8, you count short
short long. it's sort of hard to describe in words, I hope this makes
sense.
as a side note, cherokee works great in 7 using 3 plus 4 for the A
sections and 4 plus 3 for the bridge.
I play in a band that uses a lot of odd time sigs, and I got
comfortable with them by learning to feel them in straight time,
without any rhyhmic crutches, such as using a rhythmic motif for the
bassline or something. Its a struggle though, unless the whole band is
pretty strong in the meter. its my feeling that in order to be really
comfortable in a meter, you need to be able to feel it without
consciously having to count, and weird stuff (like superimposing
another meter) no longer messes you up. the one thing I've ever used
BIAB for is learning to play in odd meters, because it plays them in
straight swing time with no obvious accents.
--paul
Tom Walls
pcsa...@pobox.com says..
snip
>
> I play in a band that uses a lot of odd time sigs, and I got
> comfortable with them by learning to feel them in straight time,
> without any rhyhmic crutches, such as using a rhythmic motif for the
> bassline or something. Its a struggle though, unless the whole band is
> pretty strong in the meter. its my feeling that in order to be really
> comfortable in a meter, you need to be able to feel it without
> consciously having to count, and weird stuff (like superimposing
> another meter) no longer messes you up. the one thing I've ever used
> BIAB for is learning to play in odd meters, because it plays them in
> straight swing time with no obvious accents.
>
> --paul
>
Now that you mention it that's what my friend who plays Balkan music told
me: I asked "how do you count that?", she said "I don't." I know that
folks who play clave don't count either; they just get it in their skin.
Nazodesu
<nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> > Long ago someone related that in a Liebman master class he recommended
> > that everybody learn to tap-dance for the same reasons.
>
> Doesn't Liebman have a bad leg, maybe from childhood polio? Strange then
> for him to be giving out this type of advice! <g>
You know, it wasn't Liebman! It was whoever the drummer was in his
group during his time in town.
kuboken
> me: I asked "how do you count that?", she said "I don't." I know that
> folks who play clave don't count either; they just get it in their skin.
Steve Coleman says EVERYBODY asks him how he counts his music, and he
says he doesn't. People ask him where the ONE is in his music, he
says he doesn't know. There is no ONE... He justs listens to how all
the pieces fit together to figure out what is going on.
Dan Adler
>
> Listening to Brad Mehldau while counting couldn't hurt either.
>
Joey,
Yeah, his version of 'It Might As Well Be Spring' is amazing. The
hardest thing with these odd meters for me is playing straight eights
over the bar lines as he does. Sam Yahel is another one. I saw him at
Small's on piano (he usually plays organ) and he also had this kind of
freedom.
Michael Ellenberger
No, that was because their sax playing was so bad he thought they'd have
a better chance making it as tap-dancers ;-}