Worst teaching ideas?

[andy-uk .]

I thought it would be amusing to do a thread about "the worst teaching ideas". You know the really flaky ones .

How about "sitting in a darkened room for hours playing one note" for starters..

[crsg...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, May 11, 2013 8:15:03 AM UTC-4, andy-uk . wrote:
> I thought it would be amusing to do a thread about "the worst teaching ideas". You know the really flaky ones .
>
>
>
> How about "sitting in a darkened room for hours playing one note" for starters..

Ya but listen to me play that F note.

[Greger Hoel]

I've found that method to work best if I play a D.

--
Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

[kingst...@gmail.com]

Don't play the root of a chord when playing with a bass player.

[andy-uk .]

On Saturday, May 11, 2013 3:35:44 PM UTC+1, kingst...@gmail.com wrote:
> Don't play the root of a chord when playing with a bass player.

also "never play the root of the chord when soloing" !

[Gerry]

I think good/bad teaching ideas can relate to good/bad habits that are
being addressed. For instance the "never play a root" when soloing is
excellent advice for newbies that play the root of the chord every time
the chord changes, and from there either go up or down. Doing that
demonstrates their thinking.

Of course that's not philosophical or aesthetic advice, but a
corrective measure. Once the player begins to "get it" it doesn't
matter if the first note happens to be a root.

Another, and similar approach is to instruct them to start all your
lines from the 3rd of the chord, not because it's a good or bad device
but because it takes some brain and hand power to accomplish this.
Once accomplished--one needs to abandon it: Sometimes building good
habits is about continuously breaking old habits.
--
Music is the best means we have of digesting time. -- W. H. Auden

[andy-uk .]

> Another, and similar approach is to instruct them to start all your
> lines from the 3rd of the chord,

Your'e never alone with schizophrenia! ;)

[Gerry]

I'll take your'e word for it. Does that mean either of you disagree? ;-)

I think it's good for students to know and understand which chord tones
are under their fingers as harmony changes; that b7th's migrate to
3rds, that 3rds morph into 7ths, etc. So first, they have to know where
the root is. But they then begin starting all their lines with roots,
and it becomes a habit they need to break.

Of course speaking to "worst ideas" is pretty broad. From the horror
stories I've heard most teachers are to be avoided. That's the reason I
always recommend having multiple teachers, so you'll always have a
point of comparison.

In the real world, I think the worst seem to be the most apparently
benign: They take students through one-size-fits-all lessons week after
week until the student is bored into pursuing video games. Some 20+
years ago, I can't say I was a very good teacher. I think I'd be a lot
better know by trying to work more to facilitate where the student
wants to go, rather than which method book is the most convenient.

[Tony Done]

On 11/05/2013 10:15 PM, andy-uk . wrote:
> I thought it would be amusing to do a thread about "the worst teaching ideas". You know the really flaky ones .
>
> How about "sitting in a darkened room for hours playing one note" for starters..
>

He wants to play death metal, but we'll start him on nylon.

Become a rock god in two hours.

You need a better guitar.

--
Tony Done

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=784456

http://www.flickr.com/photos/done_family/

[rpjazzguitar]

Here's one, although I actually have mixed feelings about it.

I took my young son, maybe he was 7 or 8, for drum lessons.

His first lesson was how to hold the sticks and the assignment was to put the metronome at 60 and play quarter notes right left right left etc for 30 minutes.

He couldn't stand it. So he didn't practice.

The fourth time we went, we decided not to continue, since he wasn't practicing. At that point, the teacher lightened up and showed him how to do a beat involving a paradiddle between hand and foot and using all 4 limbs. After a few minutes my son could play it. He's now 14 and plays guitar and some drums (which he learned, later, from a teacher at school).

Now, I understand the importance of fundamentals, but stressing fundamentals in a way that can't possibly keep the student engaged -- well, it strikes me as pointlessly rigid.

OTOH, in deep retrospect, I wish my early teachers had told me something like this .. "your ear is undeveloped, to put it gently, and, if you ever want to be a musician, you are going to have to do formal ear training, otherwise, get out of my studio". Then they should have forced as much solfege and transcription as I could tolerate.

[Tony Done]

On 12/05/2013 8:49 AM, rpjazzguitar wrote:
> Here's one, although I actually have mixed feelings about it.
>
> I took my young son, maybe he was 7 or 8, for drum lessons.
>

I wish my earld.
<snipped due to line length issues.>
>

I agree, and pretty much my experience. I gave up piano as a kid because
my lessons were about as exciting as watching paint dry, and I never was
told how one scale related to another, let alone harmonic structures.
OTOH, my mate got a good teacher who engaged him with music he was
interested in. He went on to become a semi-pro, mostly playing social
clubs, and the cruise ships when times got hard in his architect's
business. I went on to be an enthusiastic but musically near-illiterate
folkie guitar player

[andy-uk .]

> are under their fingers as harmony changes; that b7th's migrate to
>
> 3rds, that 3rds morph into 7ths, etc.

No they don't .... wrong.

> That's the reason I
>
> always recommend having multiple teachers, so you'll always have a
>
> point of comparison.
>

Oh god no...

[David Raleigh Arnold]

Holding chords and pressing hard to invoke "muscle memory"
is one of the stupidest. Of course what you really want
to practice is getting to them, not using them to hurt
yourself.

Relaxation techniques of any sort are the dumbest. If you slow
down, tension will reach its best level, every time. You never
want to lose muscle tone, that's brain dead.

Regards, daveA

--
For All Guitar Beginners: Very Easy Original Solos.
For All Guitarists: Solos, Duets, and "Dynamic Guitar
Technique" which has the best scale set, triads, and
essential extended arpeggios. http://www.openguitar.com

[Joe Finn]

> On Saturday, May 11, 2013 8:15:03 AM UTC-4, andy-uk . wrote:
>> I thought it would be amusing to do a thread about "the worst teaching
>> ideas". You know the really flaky ones .
>>
>>
>>
>> How about "sitting in a darkened room for hours playing one note" for
>> starters..

This is not as unusual as you may think. Wind players blow long tones all
the time.
It builds up the embouchure and improves the lung power. .....joe

[GuyB]

Don't play the fifth in Jazz chords.

[Joey Goldstein]

On 05-14-13 10:01 AM, GuyB wrote:
> Don't play the fifth in Jazz chords.
>

What's wrong with that idea?
Usually refers to the P5th as opposed to an altered 5th.
Unless the 5th is your melody or the upper part of your voicing is
really ambiguous, there is no reason why the P5th needs to be included
in a chord voicing.
We've only got 4 fingers and 6 strings.
Dedicating one of them to a note that gives the listener no important
information about the chord is usually not the most economical way to go.

And vertical chord colour aside, as far as the forward progressive
feeling of a tonal chord progression is concerned, altered 5ths are
pretty much extraneous as well.
Save your fingers for more important notes.

On the other hand, sometimes as a contrast to a series of typical
5th-less voicings, a voicing with a 5th can be quite refreshing.

--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
<http://www.cdbaby.com/Artist/JoeyGoldstein>

[John A.]

On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 10:34:37 AM UTC-4, Joey Goldstein wrote:
> On 05-14-13 10:01 AM, GuyB wrote:
>
> > Don't play the fifth in Jazz chords.
>

>
> What's wrong with that idea?

>
> Usually refers to the P5th as opposed to an altered 5th.
>
> Unless the 5th is your melody or the upper part of your voicing is
>
> really ambiguous, there is no reason why the P5th needs to be included
>
> in a chord voicing.
>
> We've only got 4 fingers and 6 strings.
>
> Dedicating one of them to a note that gives the listener no important
>
> information about the chord is usually not the most economical way to go.

That, and much of the time the bass player is hitting the 5th somewhere in the measure, so unless you're deliberately doubling what the bassist is doing, there's the risk of SISOTWS (sudden intermittent smoke on the water syndrome).

>
>
>
> And vertical chord colour aside, as far as the forward progressive
>
> feeling of a tonal chord progression is concerned, altered 5ths are
>
> pretty much extraneous as well.

In a ii V7 I progression, are you saying one shouldn't play an altered 5th as part of the V7 chord? I realize, one should mix it up and play altered 9ths, too, or sometimes neither, but stay away from altered 5ths as a rule in V7 chords/

>
> Save your fingers for more important notes.


>
> On the other hand, sometimes as a contrast to a series of typical
>
> 5th-less voicings, a voicing with a 5th can be quite refreshing.

We all went down to Montreux ...


OK, now I'm trying to think of some bad advice I've gotten from teachers ... hmmm, I've got it. Practice something slow until you get it right, and gradually speed up ... Practice with a metronome ... try learning the same tune in more than one key. Terrible advice. I've rarely followed it, and look at how far I've gotten. Oh, wait ...

John

[Joey Goldstein]

On 05-14-13 12:56 PM, John A. wrote:
>
> In a ii V7 I progression, are you saying one shouldn't play an altered 5th as part of the V7 chord? I realize, one should mix it up and play altered 9ths, too, or sometimes neither, but stay away from altered 5ths as a rule in V7 chords/

No.
What I'm saying is that on *any* chord that's part of a chord
progression within a key-based piece of music omitting the 5th, whether
it be a P5th or an altered 5th, will not affect the forward progressive
feeling of the progression.
Only the vertical colour of the chord voicing will be affected.
You can always include 5ths on any chord too.
It's just usually not very economical to do so.

In the case of altered 5ths on dom7 chords though, I think of them more
as added extensions #11 or b13.
Again, you don't have to use extensions altered or not on any chord, but
you might choose to do so for extra colour or for voice-leading
considerations.
whether you use extensions or not, the forward motion feeling of the
progression is about the shell voicings (1 3 7) of the various chords in
the progression.
All the action, progression-wise, happens between the 3rds and 7ths and
their relationship to the root.

[Joey Goldstein]

On 05-14-13 1:11 PM, Joey Goldstein wrote:
> On 05-14-13 12:56 PM, John A. wrote:
>>
>> In a ii V7 I progression, are you saying one shouldn't play an altered
>> 5th as part of the V7 chord? I realize, one should mix it up and play
>> altered 9ths, too, or sometimes neither, but stay away from altered
>> 5ths as a rule in V7 chords/
>
> No.
> What I'm saying is that on *any* chord that's part of a chord
> progression within a key-based piece of music omitting the 5th, whether
> it be a P5th or an altered 5th, will not affect the forward progressive
> feeling of the progression.

Shoulda been:

What I'm saying is that on *any* chord that's part of a chord

progression within a key-based piece of music, omitting the 5th - whether
it be a P5th or an altered 5th - will not affect the forward progressive

[Joe Finn]

"John A." wrote in message
news:d9590568-d0cf-4a26...@googlegroups.com...

>OK, now I'm trying to think of some bad advice I've gotten from teachers
>... hmmm, I've got it. Practice something slow until you get it right, and
> >gradually speed up ... Practice with a metronome ... try learning the
>same tune in more than one key. Terrible advice. I've rarely followed it,
>and look at >how far I've gotten. Oh, wait ...

>John

nyuk, nyuk. 8-)

All kidding aside, every waking moment is an opportunity for learning and
development. This is true even when you get bad advice , experience how
something should *not* be handled, or suffer the misdeeds of some misguided
soul. It is hard to overstate the value of developing the wisdom or judgment
to know the difference between good advice and the "other kind".
Sometimes lessons learnt "the hard way" have the greatest value. ....joe

[thomas]

Good points Joe. In my experience, almost any kind of progress you make in one dimension of music will bring unforeseen benefits in other dimensions as well.

I can only think of one piece of bad advice from a teacher, and it really wasn't so bad. Dick Grove told me that in jazz, I should never play a dominant chord without adding in a color note. In other words, don't play a dom7 chord with 1 3 5 b7. Either add an extension or alter the fifth.

That's actually pretty good advice, as long as you realize that plain seventh chords do sound pretty good in blues and gospel, and are more authentic for old-timey jazz.

[John A.]

On Tuesday, May 14, 2013 3:06:27 PM UTC-4, Joe Finn wrote:
>
>

> All kidding aside, every waking moment is an opportunity for learning and
>
> development. This is true even when you get bad advice , experience how
>
> something should *not* be handled, or suffer the misdeeds of some misguided
>
> soul. It is hard to overstate the value of developing the wisdom or judgment
>
> to know the difference between good advice and the "other kind".
>
> Sometimes lessons learnt "the hard way" have the greatest value. ....joe

I haven't had that much in the way of formal teaching, so my experience may not be representative, grains of salt, etc ... I can't really think of bad advice per se that I've come across from either teachers or books. But it does seem to me that a lot of jazz teaching places more emphasis on what to play (notes, scales, chords) than on how to play musically (phrasing, dynamics, touch, leaving/filling space, etc.), and that can lead to imbalances in people's playing.

John

[Mitch]

On Saturday, May 11, 2013 8:15:03 AM UTC-4, andy-uk . wrote:

> I thought it would be amusing to do a thread about "the worst teaching ideas". You know the really flaky ones .
>
>
>
> How about "sitting in a darkened room for hours playing one note" for starters..

'Very interesting post!...and the "darkened room" approach must work well with non-payment of utility bills. On the other hand, how many of you have had a student start a lesson by saying "Boy, have I had a busy week..."(i.e. "I didn't practice)?

Anyway, I think an important component of private teaching is informal mentoring, such as demonstrating professionalism, how to practice and develop, performing in various musical situations, etc. Looking back, I think I learned a tremendous amount by observing and listening to the advice of people I admired (Although a hip chord substitution now and then doesn't hurt!).
Mitch

[GuyB]

Personally, I can't voice lead chords without the using the fifth at some point.

[Joe Finn]

"John A." wrote in message

news:41f7ab66-fa94-47dd...@googlegroups.com...

Hi John: That's a good point. In a sense it's easier to teach "what to play"
than "how to play it". This is what results in the problem you describe. The
solution will be found in the listening, in the various performance settings
the student finds himself in , and of course at some point in the solos that
they transcribe. Transcriptions give you all the musicality issues that you
listed plus the context of the harmony and the repertoire. ....joe

[Joey Goldstein]

On 05-14-13 5:16 PM, John A. wrote:
>
>
> But it does seem to me that a lot of jazz teaching places more emphasis on what to play (notes, scales, chords) than on how to play musically (phrasing, dynamics, touch, leaving/filling space, etc.), and that can lead to imbalances in people's playing.
>
> John
>

The main reason for this is simply that you have to start teaching jazz
improvisation somewhere, and for someone who is also a novice on their
instrument they also need to learn their scales and arpeggios at the
same time that they are making their first attempts at playing jazz.

For someone who already knows their instrument and understands basic
jazz improv theory and has no serious technical issues preventing them
from executing these ideas on their instrument there is obviously no
need to start with these same things.
For someone like this it's better to dive right in with listening,
lifting, phrasing exercises, etc.
For someone who can't play their instrument already, working on such
things is mostly pointless unless the student is one of those rare
individuals.

BTW
The best book I've seen for novice improvisers, because it deals with
all of the above within a single source, is Hal Crook's book, How To
Improvise.
There are some great exercises in there for phrasing, etc.

[thomas]

On Wednesday, May 15, 2013 4:13:43 PM UTC-4, Joey Goldstein wrote:
>
> The best book I've seen for novice improvisers, because it deals with
> all of the above within a single source, is Hal Crook's book, How To
> Improvise.
>
> There are some great exercises in there for phrasing, etc.

That's not a bad book for advanced improvisers too.

[Joey Goldstein]

True.

[rpjazzguitar]

I've had a number of good teachers. It's hard to think of any really bad advice I ever got.

The following wasn't an error of commission, but rather one of omission. I learned scales and arps many years ago. My teacher had me practice them all from the root, in sequence. Maybe if I'd studied longer (although I was with him quite a while), he have eventually mentioned that it's important to be equally able to begin on any note. But, he never mentioned it and, as a teenager who knew nothing about the structure of jazz, I didn't quickly figure it out.

Seems dumb in retrospect, but I guess I was used to, as a kid, having a teacher tell me things I was supposed to learn without taking much time to explain why. And, so I practiced what he showed me (and I can still play those scales and arps nearly 50 years later). It was decades later that I figured out that I needed to know them every which way and, as it turned out, I used a completely different method for that -- one that doesn't work very well at high speed.