Carol Kaye on chord tones vs. scales in improvising
thomas
Carol Kaye:
From: CAROLKAYE
Date: Sat, 08 Feb 1997 11:20:03 -0800
Subject: Why chords, CK
Callum was wondering why I teach chordal tones on bass and not so much
on scales and such.
I started playing and teaching guitar professionally 1949. Played a lot
of gigs, taught a lot of students over the years until I accidently got
into studio work as a guitarist on the Sam Cooke record dates beginning
in late 1957, still taughing a lot until I really got to playing elec.
bass in the studios (starting on a Capitol Record session when an elec.
bassist didn't show up), and had to put away teaching around 1965
through 1970 when I than began teaching elec. bass (I still teach a
little jazz guitar but my main thing is teaching elec. bass and a little
studio work).
I got a thorough background in theory 1949 from my teacher who was a
graduate from Eastman and he was on the road subbing for Eddie Lang,
etc. and was a fine teacher of so many excellent guitarists like Howard
Roberts, Oscar Moore, John Gray, Jimmie Wyble, Howard Heitmeyer, etc.,
but his idea of improvising was to play with the records until you "got
it". I still don't agree with that to a great extent, to copy is one
thing, to do your own creating is another.
Howard I noticed, became really fine when he started playing with all
the beboppers, something I later gravitated to also (I can't pretend
that I was as great as he was but Shearing at one point asked me to join
his group, so I did do "something" on guitar).
It wasn't until I played with the local Hollywood/LA jazz musicians that
I fully started developing good bebop jazz improv (had played a lot of
improv with "jazz" groups up to then, 1/2 dixie 1/2 jazz etc.), and
noticed the arpeggiated way the really greats used, plus the b5 pivotal
things, something my teacher really didn't teach. This created the fine
jazz of the 50s that is admired and copied today.
When I then taught the elec. bass in beginning 1969 (when I took a
7-month hiatus from studio work as I was tired from all the work, plus
didn't like to record anymore for the "rock" formula groups etc.),
people were having a hard time trying to create 16th rhmthmic ideas
(still are), so that became my focus in teaching elec. bass with cursory
theory.
Then after Jaco popularized the jazz soloing, that brought a whole new
generation wanting solo material, solo chops, so I brought out my bebop
jazz way of earlier teaching on guitar (derived from *sax* soloing, not
another guitar player's idea of jazz, very few guitarists then were into
the real stuff like Wes Montgomery, George Benson, Howard, etc.), and
this works very well in forming good melodic sax type of soloing on
elec. bass. I even have a small booklet out with all the common (but
most relatively unknown to guitarists & bassists) phrases used in that
era, and today, "Pro's Jazz Phrases".
The modal stuff was popular for a long time but if you listen to it
enough, it becomes very boring (page 57, now we'll play page 69
exercises), altho' sometimes people will applaud it for being "chic".
Even one of its biggest proponents, McCoy Tyner, has now gone back to
playing the kind of jazz I know and teach, the 50s arpeggiated and b5
substituted jazz.
Even for the basic elec. bass things, you *must* know your chords, you
are the basis for that chord. I see not that much use for scales
(pianists, other instrumentalists agree they are traveling notes),
especially early on when they can literally ruin you *ear*. You play
what you practice.
The chords are based on every other note of the scale (not the scale),
and build their foundation from that: C C7, C9, C11, C13, or C
Cmaj7, Cmaj9 or Cm Cm7, Cm9, Cm11. So learning arpeggios for
soloing and grasping the sound of the chord is critical.
There is a rock/funk theory to use for the 2-part statement-answer
rhythmic lines you need to create (people are so surprised to learn you
don't use the 3rd much in these styles except for Reggae), and then
there's the pop-jazz-walking theory to use for standards playing (yes
you use the 3rd sometimes more than the 5th here). I teach both
theories so the player is well-rounded for all sitations.
As far as guitar chord playing helping one for elec. bass, I don't see
that much help from there, the roles are so different. Certainly, the
shape of the chords give you an idea but like I stated in the paragraph
above, you *don't use* the 3rds much at all for pop-funk-rock etc.
styles, and walking you will vitally use the 2nd all the time, so that
doesn't give you that much of a clue to know what to do. And literally,
I've yet to see guitarists really use chords well in all situations,
it's fairly common to see a school "jazz" guitarist use what I call
"cowboy" chords for the big band, ouch.
And certainly, on my dozens of seminars around the USA in the 70s,
especially for the rhythm sections in colleges, high schools, and
universities, I noticed that the poor guitar player had *no idea* how to
comp, how to really back up the pianist, soloist etc. And I had to
spend as much with the guitarist as I did the bass player in those
sections to impart what to play.
When a good guitarist plays bebop in the good jazz combos, they should
punctuate with horn type of quick punctuation 3-voice chords, stay out
of the pianists block chords way (you can play block chords too, but
this is a fine art), don't wind up playing Freddie Green 3-voice chordal
type 4-beat rhythms like you do in the big bands, not in a fine jazz
combo, but *comp*.
Most guitarists have no idea how to do this, hence they aren't used much
in the bebop groups, and they certainly have no idea of the arpeggiated
patterns way of improvising either, very few do play like Wes, Kenny
Burrell, Howard Roberts, etc. This is why I teach the way I do on the
elec. bass, and my students 2-3,000 of them are out there really
playing, enjoying their music, free from hurtful left hand techniques
too.
But this whole long post is to give you a picture of why I teach the
elec. bass the way I do. I see no reason why elec. bassists can't play
fine bebop jazz solos the way sax players (and some pianists) do also,
and if they are not learning for jazz playing, then certainly the
patterns and arpeggios do help their ear, and they understand music so
much more then.
In fact, when I went down to hear bvassist Ron Bland in Denver play one
time (after I had taught him for a very few months, he picked it right
up), he was playing better jazz improv solos than the good piano player
was too.
Not that everyone is after jazz soloing, but this theory works so well
to help everyone understand their chords, and how music functions, the
ii V7 I common chordal progression, the cycles, how to read chord
changes, how to *hear* chord changes, etc. And the separate very
*different* theory for the 16th funky stuff too, very different indeed.
Carol Kaye caro...@prodigy.net http://www.carolkaye.com/
4140 Oceanside Blvd. Ste. 159-297, Oceanside CA 92056-6005
Greger Hoel
>a very informative post by Carol Kaye
Nice read, thx
--
Greger
______________________________________________
What's up Chuck?
To email me, replace everything after @ with softhome.net
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ludwig
"thomas" <tomb...@jhu.edu> wrote in message
news:7d424f23.03071...@posting.google.com...
> Here is an old post from the legendary studio guitarist/bassist
> Carol Kaye:
>
>
> From: CAROLKAYE
> Date: Sat, 08 Feb 1997 11:20:03 -0800
> Subject: Why chords, CK
>
> Callum was wondering why I teach chordal tones on bass and not so much
> on scales and such.
Its a really good answer to the old "... learning all the modes of
harmonic/melodic minor + octatonics in all positions, but still wouldn't
recognise a II V I if it bit me" problem.
Carol sounds way experienced ... cool.
Joe Finn
--
Visit me on the web www.joefinn.net
"thomas" <tomb...@jhu.edu> wrote in message
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SCOT GORMLEY
Jeff's omnipresent mantra was "chord tones" (I was always more scale
oriented), and since I loved the way he navigated through chord changes, it
got me thinking about arpeggios and arpeggio substitutions a lot more.
Bob Agnew
link to her website and found that her studio is right down the street from
my house! I've got to get lessons from her!
"thomas" <tomb...@jhu.edu> wrote in message
news:7d424f23.03071...@posting.google.com...
thomas
> Absolutely amazing! I didn't realize that she was local! I followed the
> link to her website and found that her studio is right down the street from
> my house! I've got to get lessons from her!
You're in Canyon Country (ooops, I mean "Santa Clarita--aren't
we posh now that we've got a different name")? I would see
definitely her too. Isn't Ted Greene still teaching in the
valley somewhere?
Bob Agnew
That's the address I got off the Web. I posted to her web site and she
answered back that she's back home in Santa Clarita now. If I retire in
December, I'll consider taking from her. Ron Eschtee is up North somewhere
too. I really like his playing, but it sounds like Carol is into bop.
"thomas" <tomb...@jhu.edu> wrote in message
news:7d424f23.0307...@posting.google.com...
thomas
Then you've got Peter Sprague even closer to you.
No shortage of great jazz guitarists to study with
in that neck of the woods.
"Bob Agnew" <rag...@cox.net> wrote in message news:<_y4Ta.25170$zy.8606@fed1read06>...
Bob Agnew
Rick Ross, etc.. but none of them play bebop or are heavy into theory. Also,
unlike Carol, most everyone these days are scale players and not chord arp
players as Carol was expousing.
"thomas" <tomb...@jhu.edu> wrote in message
news:7d424f23.03072...@posting.google.com...
Bob Agnew
can just manage the driving to Santa Clarita from Oceanside.
"thomas" <tomb...@jhu.edu> wrote in message
news:7d424f23.03071...@posting.google.com...
thomas
> Ah -- Good, news! Carol said she would take me on as a student. Now if I
> can just manage the driving to Santa Clarita from Oceanside.
When I was a kid I seriously considered moving from LA to
Toronto just to try to study with Ed Bickert. Your commute
will be a lot shorter. Although moving to Canada still may
be preferable to braving the 405 at rush hour.
Max Leggett
In 1959 Oscar Peterson, Ray Brown, Ed Thigpen, and Phil Nimmons opened
a music school in Toronto. I wanted to go SOOOOO bad. It folded after
1964, which was the year I heard of it. I don't know what sort of jazz
education was available in '66, but that just sounded so solid.
Joey Goldstein
thomas
> thomas wrote:
> >
> > When I was a kid I seriously considered moving from LA to
> > Toronto just to try to study with Ed Bickert. Your commute
> > will be a lot shorter. Although moving to Canada still may
> > be preferable to braving the 405 at rush hour.
>
> To bad Ed never taught.
Just hearing him live would have been enough. There was a run
of a year or two when a jazz record producer named Ozzie Cadena
was booking solo acts into a hotel bar out at the LAX airport.
He got all the great guitarists and pianists in there who lived
around LA at the time, and occasionally even flew guys in. And
the best thing was it was totally free, no cover charge.
Each artist would do the whole week of solo sets. Since it was an
airport hotel and relatively unpromoted gig, the room was never
full. Usually just a handful of traveling salesmen staying at the
hotel, a few hookers, and a few jazz fans. The hookers and salesmen
had no clue as to what the music was, and couldn't have cared less.
I got to sit right in front of Barney Kessel, Kenny Burrell,
Tal Farlow, Al Viola, Tommy Flanagan, Herb Ellis, John Collins,
Laurindo Almeida, Jimmy Rowles, and on and on, playing nothing
but solo guitar (or piano) for the whole week. I went out there
three or four nights a week every week for a year or two, for no
money except what I spent on drinks. That was an education. Just
to hear Ed up close and personal like that would have been great.
Joey Goldstein
Yeah, it is great to watch him play.
As far as teaching is concerned he has done the odd clinic now and then
but I don't think he's ever given any one on one lessons. I think that's
how Lofsky and him hooked up way back when. Lorne approached him about
lessons and Ed said "I don't do that, but let's get together and play",
or something like that.
Every summer I go up to International Music Camp's Camp Rock. [Don't ask
why the hell I'm teaching at a rock camp.] They also run a Jazz Camp at
the same time. Lorne is the guitar guy at the Jazz Camp so we hang out a
bit a play some duos while we're there. A few years ago they had Ed come
up and do a concert/clinic for the Jazz Camp. He didn't really teach
anything but there was a question/answer period. I was one of the only
guys to ask anything. His answer to everything was basically "I dunno. I
just play what I hear." In my experience he's a very laid back, quiet,
shy person. He appears to be incapable of explaining in words what it is
he is doing and lets the music speak for itself.