comparing scale lengths

[billc...@hotmail.com]

I have a question about comapring a 25" scale with a 24.75" scale.

If, say, I'm playing in the third position on a 24.75, in terms of fret
spacing, is this a little like playing in the second position on a 25"
scale?

thanks

Bill

[rpguitar]

It's not nearly that dramatic. Think about it: You are talking about
a quarter of an inch difference absorbed in the space of 22 frets. The
difference in distance from the nut at the 2nd or 3rd position (between
the two) is minimal.

[Phil T]

No. The difference is smaller than that. The difference in scale
length is only 1/4" (250 thousandths of an inch) over the entire string
length in your example. Most of that difference gets distributed in a
logarithmic fashion over all the frets. The difference in fret spacing
between 3rd position on a 24.75" scale versus a 25" scale is somewhere
around 0.012" or 0.3mm. It's a very small difference.

Phil

[sycochkn]

<billc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1164540890.4...@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...

The difference at the first fret 25.5 inch vs 24.75 inch scale is about 1/32
of an inch. I just measured mine with a scale.

Bob

[pmfan57]

I feel different on my Strat than on my Bluesbird. But 1/32 of an
inch wouldn't explain that. Maybe it's the tension?

[Joey Goldstein]

From the nut to the 5th fret is approx 6" on a 24.75" scale neck.
It's approx 6.25" on a 25.5" scale neck.

It's both the fret distance and the tension that make shorter scale
lengths feel easier to play.

But between 25" scale and 24.75" scale any differences will be really
subtle.

--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/joeygoldstein
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

[art...@invalid.co.uk.invalid]

In message <1164557350....@l39g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>
"pmfan57" <jwra...@aol.com> wrote:

24.75 inches is roughly 3 percent shorter than 25.5 inches so the
string tension is close to 6 percent less.

Arthur

--
Arthur Quinn
real-email arthur at bellacat dot com

[Phil T]

You can see the actual measurements of fret spacing at various scale
lengths here :

http://www.manchesterguitartech.co.uk/fret_calculator.php

While the changes in individual fret to fret spacing are small when
changing scale lengths, the biggest difference occurs at the low end of
the neck. So chords requiring long stretches at the low end of the
fretboard (covering 4 or 5 frets) certainly would feel easier on a
24.75"scale vs a 25.5"scale. As Joey pointed, it's roughly 1/4"
difference in the first 5 frets. Depending on hand size, that could be
enough to make or break being able to grab a "wide" chord.

And of course, there is also the issue of lower string tension with a
shorter scale length that contributes to the feel of the shorter scale
length.

String tensions for D'Addario strings can be calculated with the formula
found in this document :

http://www.daddariostrings.com/Resources/JDCDAD/images/tension_chart.pdf

Phil

[billc...@hotmail.com]

thanks for your help everyone

[pmfan57]

Joey Goldstein wrote:

>
> From the nut to the 5th fret is approx 6" on a 24.75" scale neck.
> It's approx 6.25" on a 25.5" scale neck.
>
> It's both the fret distance and the tension that make shorter scale
> lengths feel easier to play.

OK. Well that should be noticable, at least in feel. And of course it
is, to me.

[ott...@hotmail.com]

I prefer the extra elbow room available on a 25-1/2" scale but I prefer
the 24-3/4" scale because I can use .013's on it, and pretty well
have to use .012"'s on the longer scale.
Bg

[richard...@yahoo.com]

I find that I'm very uncomfortable at 25.5. To me, those tiny distances
feel enormous.

RP

On Nov 26, 12:52 pm, "pmfan57" <jwrag...@aol.com> wrote:
> Joey Goldstein wrote:
>
> > From the nut to the 5th fret is approx 6" on a 24.75" scale neck.
> > It's approx 6.25" on a 25.5" scale neck.
>
> > It's both the fret distance and the tension that make shorter scale

> > lengths feel easier to play.OK. Well that should be noticable, at least in feel. And of course it
> is, to me.

[Tone]

On Nov 26, 11:53 am, Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> pmfan57 wrote:
> > sycochkn wrote:
> >> <billcou...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

> >>news:1164540890.4...@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> >>> I have a question about comapring a 25" scale with a 24.75" scale.
>
> >>> If, say, I'm playing in the third position on a 24.75, in terms of fret
> >>> spacing, is this a little like playing in the second position on a 25"
> >>> scale?
>
> >>> thanks
>
> >>> Bill
>
> >> The difference at the first fret 25.5 inch vs 24.75 inch scale is about 1/32
> >> of an inch. I just measured mine with a scale.
>
> >> Bob
>
> > I feel different on my Strat than on my Bluesbird. But 1/32 of an
> > inch wouldn't explain that. Maybe it's the tension? From the nut to the 5th fret is approx 6" on a 24.75" scale neck.
> It's approx 6.25" on a 25.5" scale neck.
>
> It's both the fret distance and the tension that make shorter scale
> lengths feel easier to play.
>

Any idea why no well known guitars other than the Byrdland use the 23.5
scale?

Are the low strings really flabby or something? And if so would using
heavier gauge strings make it less so? Seems like it could get more
people in the Holdsworth or Tal Farlow "huge hands" mode. I've heard
they (Byrdlands) have really skinny necks but there wouldn't seem to be
any real need for that.

[Jim Soloway]

as many people have pointed out, the diffeence in feel is minimal. But
that being said, the difference in tone is much more significant. 25"
scale instruments have a reputation for less low end warmth and a
stronger mid range than their 24.75" counterparts.

[Mark Cleary]

My experience is that a 24.75 does feel a little different than the 25.5. I
don't notice a huge difference in the feel of the string tension but other
things can effect this as well. A longer scale does have the chance for
better intonation and usually make for louder guitar in a carved top but you
still have to pay attention to the carving. I personally like a 25 or
longer. I have fairly large hands by any standards so it does not make a
difference to me. I do notice that on my Barker that has a 24.75 scale some
chords I play are a little easier. As important is the width of the neck
since a narrow neck can make large-spread chords harder to play clean.

I like to play Johnny Smith type chords and on a G6 going B - D - E - G (
9th to 3rd fret) on the top 4 strings, this chord is hard for me to play
clean on narrow- necked guitars. The stretch is not problem on either a
24.75 or a 25.5 like my others. I just find a wider neck much easier to play
this chord clean.

--
Mark Cleary
Hollenbeck Jazz Guitars the Finest
Handcarved Jazz Guitars
http://members.cox.net/ruthster/hollenbeck/
"Jim Soloway" <j...@jimsoloway.com> wrote in message
news:1164581275.1...@14g2000cws.googlegroups.com...

[Jon Fox]

"Mark Cleary" <mcle...@verizondot.net> wrote in message
news:arpah.14965$Uz.9230@trnddc05...

> My experience is that a 24.75 does feel a little different than the 25.5.
> I
> don't notice a huge difference in the feel of the string tension but other
> things can effect this as well. A longer scale does have the chance for
> better intonation and usually make for louder guitar in a carved top but
> you
> still have to pay attention to the carving. I personally like a 25 or
> longer. I have fairly large hands by any standards so it does not make a
> difference to me. I do notice that on my Barker that has a 24.75 scale
> some
> chords I play are a little easier. As important is the width of the neck
> since a narrow neck can make large-spread chords harder to play clean.
>
> I like to play Johnny Smith type chords and on a G6 going B - D - E - G (
> 9th to 3rd fret) on the top 4 strings, this chord is hard for me to play
> clean on narrow- necked guitars. The stretch is not problem on either a
> 24.75 or a 25.5 like my others. I just find a wider neck much easier to
> play
> this chord clean.
>

Despite there only being a .75" difference along the entire length of the
string, I can definitely feel a difference between the two scale lengths.
For me, though, stretching out on a 25.5" scale isn't the problem. I have
the opposite problem, in that I feel cramped on a 24.75" neck, particularly
playing harmonized melodies ("chord-melody" material). I'm about 6'3" with
relatively large hands, so as Bg stated up-thread, I too prefer the "elbow
room" of the longer scale.

Jon

--

www.jonfoxjazz.com

[Joe Montgomery]

I'm unclear about all the scale talk about 'tension.' I know we're
talking string tension, but after that, then what?

If I put heavy strings on a 24.75 and light strings on a 25.5 do I wind
up with the same tension, in other words, will playing on either guitar
be 'evened out' despite the string size?

Thanks,

JM

[pmfan57]

Sure.

[Max Leggett]

On 27 Nov 2006 08:29:52 -0800, "Joe Montgomery"
<joemont...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Yeah, but having Thomastiks on one and Chromes on the other makes a
bigger difference in feel. There's not a difference of a gauge between
24.75 and 25.5, i.e., given identical manufacturers and 12s, say, it's
not like the short scale feels the way 11s would feel on the long
scale. The diff between rounds and flats makes more of a diff than the
scale length. My 25.5 with TI rounds feels looser than the 24.75 with
TI flats. Tonally, they're different, not better or worse.

--------------------------------------
Without music, life is a mistayke.
Friedrich "Spelling R Us" Nietzsche
--------------------------------------

[tomsalvojazz]

Yes. I've played a lot on 24.75, 25, 25.5 and Jim's 27" scales. The
24.75 is easiest for stretching my hands to grab complex chords and,
yet, even though 27" is a lot longer, it really isn't that hard to
play. PRSs and Benedetto Bennys both employ the 25" scale - I think
Paul Reed Smith wanted to split the difference between the Les Paul and
Strat scales.

Think about the difference between, say, a guitar with a 25.5" scale
and 1 5/8 nut (like the Hofner Verythin) compared with something with a
1 11/16 or 1 3/4 nut with a 24.75 scale. Totally different feel and
both have advantages and disadvantages...

The 27" scale gives a snappy, authoritative, "up-front" tone - like a
strat but clearer and more defined from string to string - like a grand
piano. This neck makes single-note passages really easy, actually.
Chords need to be a little more deliberate at first until you hands and
eyes get accustomed to the neck - but then it feels just as natural as
any other.

The 24.75 scale is warmer and creamier... I personally find it the
most effortless for playing fast chord melodies.

Also, sometimes the nut width gives you the extra elbow room you are
looking for... not the scale. This is an interesting topic. for YEARS
I couldn't get how some guys (Eric Johnson, John Petrucci) could play
so FAST on a strat scale - and then I looked at their fingers - they're
literally like a quarter of an inch longer than mine!

[Danielle E]

Although it's been many years since I have owned a guitar with a 24.75"
scale length, trying out a Sadowsky Jimmy Bruno guitar in a store has got me
thinking it might worthwhile trying that scale length again.

I find if I am sitting quietly at home playing fingerstyle chord melody I
reach for my SCGC OM (24.4" scale) flat top rather than my 25" scale Eastman
AR805CE archtop.

Danielle

"tomsalvojazz" <toms...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:1164659924.4...@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

[Joe Montgomery]

I've got 1 11/16 nut with 24.9 scale....very nice (16.75")
I've got 1 3/4 nut with 25" scale...very very nice (16")

I've got a DA Excel Blowout on the way...1 11/16 nut with 25.5
scale...(17")
I was going to order the 16" Excell, but I really only wanted 1
pickup...

Am I in trouble?

JM

[Stan Fong]

<ott...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1164578123.7...@14g2000cws.googlegroups.com...

It's amazing what difference 1/1000 will make in string tension. I know what
you mean.
I'm certainly noticing it more as I get older.

Stan