Key of D Dorian - question for Joey
Max Leggett
Dorian. I say it's the key of D minor. Can you elucidate? I went on to
say that any mode with a minor third [phrygian, locrian, aeolian] was
a minor key. So D phrygian is in the key of D minor, given that D is
the tonic root. Am I ranting through my hat as usual?
Max Leggett
happens to be Director of Jazz Studies at USC, so I'll asume that I
am, in fact, ranting through my hat. I've still never heard of the
"key" of D Dorian, though. D minor, yes. D major, yes. But Dorian as a
key? Phrygian as a key?
On Thu, 19 Dec 2002 23:13:54 GMT, mleg...@nospam.ca (Max Leggett)
wrote:
Joey Goldstein
I'm in agreement with you but not everybody agrees with me.
But I would not include locrian in there. Everything I know about the
major/minor key system of tonality tells me that a 'key' is either major
or minor. A major key has a major triad at I. A minor key has a minor
triad at I. There is no major or minor triad available from the 1st
degree of the locrian scale. Dim triads do not contain their acoustical
root so establishing a key on a dim triad is impossible, in the
traditional sense of the word 'key'.
Therefore, I think of tunes like So What and Impressions and Little
Sunflower as being in the key of D minor with a Dorian colour, not in
the 'key of D Dorian'. This is all semantics of course but I think the
distinction is important.
--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
<joegold AT sympatico DOT ca>
Joey Goldstein
an expert in tradional tonal harmony. Tonal harmony is the dicipline for
which the term "key" was invented. The system of major and minor keys
was invented as something to be quite different from the modal harmony
that predeeded it. There is modal music and there is tonal music. If you
are talking about "keys" then the music is tonal or you are involved in
inventing new uses for the term.
--
Jurupari
>key? Phrygian as a key?
I can't speak for Bert, but there are times where thinking in the diatonic key
indicated by a modal name makes good sense.
For example, La Fiesta by Chick starts with a vamp that is to me essentially
phrygian at the bottom ( you can heap on a ton, but at the bottom) so if
someone called in the key of E phryg, I'd know what was up, I guess. The B
section's another story, though - another song, even.
Same as if someone called something a Dorian minor or blues - you'd just get
oriented tonally from the word and the associated sound.
I tend to think of Porkpie Hat as a phrygian centered blues since it keeps the
head changes in one key for me - same as thinking of Blue Bossa as being in Ab
- just a good orientation trick the way I have music organized for performance
so I won't lose my place.
If you're looking for key-associated subdominant and dominant function, you'll
have to insert them though. Then it becomes 'combined minor' or more like some
of my ideas in 'on chords scales...etc"
Clif Kuplen
Doc
in
inventing new uses for the term".
Using the term Key for describing modes has been around for a long time.
A lot of guys from the old school call the modes keys. The key of D Dorian
is when you have a song in that mode or the chords in a song revolve around
that mode and resolve to it. A lot of songs were written in the Mixolydian
mode during the 70s (James Taylors Fire and Rain) The cats I played with
always referred to it as the Mixolydian Key because the song always resolves
to the 5 chord. Calling Autumn Leaves in the Aeolian mode always made sense
to me because the song revolves around and Resolves to Aeolian. This way we
look at the term "key" as describing the focal points or resolution of the
song. If we can say we are going to the minor key we usually mean an Aeolian
resolution. We could also resolve to the Dorian, locrian or the ever so
popular Lydian key. The term Key is now defining what the sound is. This may
not be the way books use the term key but I would bet that this is what Bert
Ligon was getting at. --
Doc
http://www.trimcrafters.com/drg.htm
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"Max Leggett" <mleg...@nospam.ca> wrote in message
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Joe Finn
news:3E0275C4...@nowhere.net...
It is a very important distinction. You summed it up well in the previous
post. Some of the ethnic styles like Arabian, Klezmer, and Gypsy are typical
of an approach that is modal and not so much key based. The Bulgarian
clarinet virtuoso Yasko Argirov is another example. The peculiar
ethnocentricity of the key based tonality we are familiar with is predated
by a host of tonal traditions that are evocative and exotic.
The ability of players like Miles, Chick and even John McLaughlin to tap
into this sound has enriched the jazz tradition beyond measure.
The transition from modes to keys was documented somewhat as composers of
chant categorized modes and observed certain rules.
http://clem.mscd.edu/~yarrowp/MODEXh.html
It is fascinating stuff. If my hands suddenly fall off I'll become an
ethnomusicologist. .....joe
--
Visit me on the web. www.JoeFinn.net
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Adam Gottschalk
"Joe Finn" <J...@joefinn.net> wrote:
> The peculiar
> ethnocentricity of the key based tonality we are familiar with is predated
> by a host of tonal traditions that are evocative and exotic.
>
> The ability of players like Miles, Chick and even John McLaughlin to tap
> into this sound has enriched the jazz tradition beyond measure.
Well put. Often, when I'm in a rut or just not thinking clearly about my
aims as a musician, it helps me to remember that my own tendency to
think of jazz as the premier, or original even, form of musical
improvisation is impossibly wrong and bad. Jeez, thinking about the
sitar/tabla works just as a single example...thousands of years in
Indian classical music, man. I can remember when I was in Nepal (some 15
years ago) hearing a concert by the sitar teacher I was studying with
(only a couple of months) and, I mean, talk about improv, improvised
solos of no less than 20 minutes. It does indeed tax the western brain
to concentrate that long. [If I'm not way off, as that eastern tendency
crept in to jazz, I believe some of it became less palatable to the
western masses.]
And the tablas, wow. 2 drums can make like 50 distinct sounds. In
thinking that some rhythm studies would be good for me, I've often
thought of studying tablas.
Richard Bornman
"Doc" <guitarm...@trimcrafters.com> wrote:
> Using the term Key for describing modes has been around for a long time.
> A lot of guys from the old school call the modes keys. The key of D Dorian
> is when you have a song in that mode or the chords in a song revolve
around
> that mode and resolve to it. A lot of songs were written in the Mixolydian
> mode during the 70s (James Taylors Fire and Rain) The cats I played with
> always referred to it as the Mixolydian Key because the song always
resolves
> to the 5 chord. Calling Autumn Leaves in the Aeolian mode always made
sense
> to me because the song revolves around and Resolves to Aeolian. This way
we
> look at the term "key" as describing the focal points or resolution of the
> song. If we can say we are going to the minor key we usually mean an
Aeolian
> resolution. We could also resolve to the Dorian, locrian or the ever so
> popular Lydian key. The term Key is now defining what the sound is. This
may
> not be the way books use the term key but I would bet that this is what
Bert
> Ligon was getting at. --
This is sloppy terminology Doc.
Key is synonymous with tonality
Mode is synonymous with modality
It isn't the *key* of Ab dorian, but the *mode* of Ab dorian...
Richard
Joe Finn
>
> Often, when I'm in a rut or just not thinking clearly about my
> aims as a musician, it helps me to remember that my own tendency to
> think of jazz as the premier, or original even, form of musical
> improvisation is impossibly wrong and bad. Jeez, thinking about the
> sitar/tabla works just as a single example...thousands of years in
> Indian classical music, man. I can remember when I was in Nepal (some 15
> years ago) hearing a concert by the sitar teacher I was studying with
> (only a couple of months) and, I mean, talk about improv, improvised
> solos of no less than 20 minutes. It does indeed tax the western brain
> to concentrate that long. [If I'm not way off, as that eastern tendency
> crept in to jazz, I believe some of it became less palatable to the
> western masses.]
I'm envious that you actually visited the east. What a tremendous experience
that must have been. Although the jazz tradition [having come much later in
history] is separate from what happened there, the Indian influence can be
still be heard in jazz today.
Just ask Johnny Asia. .....joe
Joey Goldstein
--
David Kotschessa
It's really semantics to talk about what "key" you're really in. If
you are playing in D dorian, you're playing in the key of C (no sharps
or flats).
But since you are rooted in D, you're thinking of your "key" as D.
Doesn't matter what you call it if you know how to use it.
-Dave
Jurupari
posts elsewhere and the last thing I would expect from him is vagueness.
Everything I've read of his is meticulously supported, although I don't always
necessesarily find it useful personally, but I'm wondering where he was going
with Max on this.
Clif
JB
I think Mick hit the nail on the head when he talked about the unitar. He
also said something about studying sitar playing which is based on ONE
string. I believe that. I have been doing that. His modal exercise
suggestions are REAL good for the ear, and for the feel.
THEN........................ you add another string, and another...... and
the combinations of strings with the melody you create on the top, middle or
bottom, (2 or 3 strings at once) opens the whole fretboard up.
Just have to get it together with a band. Group is a bad word these
days.....
Cheers.
JB
"Adam Gottschalk" <ad...@adamgottschalk.nospam.net> wrote in message
news:adam-E86564.2...@news.fu-berlin.de...
Chip L
Is All Blues in C (G Mix) or G (G7). People give me a hard time when I tell
them there is no such thing as a key of G7. Aren't key Major and minor, not
dominant?
BTW, Bert Ligons book on Connecting Arpeggios is excellent. It taught me a
basis for improv. (Don't base the quality of his book on my ability...)
Chip L
Dan Adler
> Just because a guy teaches jazz at a university does not mean that he is
> an expert in tradional tonal harmony. Tonal harmony is the dicipline for
Bert Ligon is an expert in all aspects of jazz and music and has
written some of the best books around. He is a regular contributor on
the yahoo justjazz list and is one of the most valuable voices there.
I don't believe that he said this in exactly the way Max quoted it.
Max must have taken Bert's words out of context.
Doc
I totally agree. Maybe they should have used a different word like tone
center or GooGop. The fact remains that a lot of great Jazz musicians call a
Mixolydian mode the Mixolydian Key. What is the difference as long as we
know what it is. As I said in the last post, in a song some musicians use
the word key to define a resolution Ex: G7-Dmi7-CMaj7-G7 would be a
progression in a Mixolydian Key in stead of saying it's in the key of C
major starting and stopping on the 5 and refer to a progression G7-G7-G7-G7
as the Mixolydian mode. There have been many theory ideas written about all
music being taken from the Lydian key where the word key is used to define a
scale 1,2,3,#4,5,6,7 It Maybe slang for the word key in the classical theory
sense but it's real just the same. I believe that music today has progressed
past using the word key as a word meaning just one thing. In fact the word
key has many meanings that could apply to music.
A vital, crucial element.
A set of answers to a test.
A table, gloss, or cipher for decoding or interpreting
--
Doc
http://www.trimcrafters.com/drg.htm
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"Richard Bornman" <richard...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
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Dan Adler
The entire discussion is at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jazz_guitar/messages/
Next time you quote someone, please give the context. Once you read
the exchange, it's clear that Bert is trying to explain the
differences between something having no flats or sharps, versus
something that has Cmaj as its tonic. What you call it is up to you,
but the verity of his point remains.
Max Leggett
"So What is NOT in the key of D minor. The melody and reply suggest D
dorian. The piece is in the key of D dorian and modulates up a
half-step to Eb dorian for the bridge.
Bert Ligon"
I'm not making a big deal about this; I know what bert is saying, sort
of, but I say it IS in D minor, damnit. LOL!!! It's really not
important.
Max Leggett
"So What is NOT in the key of D minor. The melody and reply suggest D
dorian. The piece is in the key of D dorian and modulates up a
half-step to Eb dorian for the bridge.
Bert Ligon"
There's the context. Happy? I do not quote people out of context, and
I will thank you to remember that.
Doc
Every one on this thread should look at what Bert is saying here because for
todays music it's in my opinion right on the money check it out
http://www.music.sc.edu/ea/Jazz/sixpieces.pdf
--
Doc
http://www.trimcrafters.com/drg.htm
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"Dan Adler" <d...@danadler.com> wrote in message
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Bob R
longcDE...@infoave.net wrote on 12/20/02 7:21 AM:
> So, is So What in D minor or C (D dorian)?
>
> Is All Blues in C (G Mix) or G (G7). People give me a hard time when I tell
> them there is no such thing as a key of G7. Aren't key Major and minor, not
> dominant?
The whole thing's an exercise in semantics: how strict do you want a
definition of "key" to be? "So What" has two pitch centers, D and Eb. The
melody is based on Dorian mode on each of those pitch centers. Three-fourths
of the time, D dorian is the prevailing "tonality". You can say that D
dorian is the same "material" as C major, but the tune doesn't sound as
though it has anything to do with C major (unless you're really willing to
strain at gnats and swallow camels). Since D dorian has a minor 3rd between
tone 1 and tone 3, most people (of course, this is Usenet) would probably
concede that the scale has an overall minor quality.
Since we're living in the 21st century and I know that "So What" was written
during the late 20th century, I take it for granted that if you say the
tune's in "D minor", you're not necessarily implying that it's shot through
with i-vi-ii-V7 progressions, etc. It *is* largely based around D minor type
sonorities; that's close enough for me! And I guarantee you that if you call
the tune on the stand, when someone says "What key?" and you reply "D
minor", they're not going to require a dissertation to figure it out. :-)
Anyone who'd seriously give you a hard time for saying that "All Blues" is
"in G" would probably be dismayed at your use of parallel fifths in "So
What". Life is too short!
-- Bob Russell
http://www.bobrussellguitar.com
CD, "Watch This!", available at:
http://www.cdbaby.com/bobrussell
Joey Goldstein
Chip L wrote:
>
> So, is So What in D minor or C (D dorian)?
I've already answered that one. Again, lots of people disagree with me.
> Is All Blues in C (G Mix) or G (G7).
All Blues is a blues in the key of G although it might be written with a
*key signature* of C major (no sharps or flats). Key signature and key
are not always the same thing. Key signatures are for making the reading
of music easiest. Keys are something that is discussed within an
harmonic analysis of a piece of music.
> People give me a hard time when I tell
> them there is no such thing as a key of G7. Aren't key Major and minor, not
> dominant?
Keys are major or minor. A dom7 chord has a major triad at its core.
There is no problem with a dom7 chord serving as I7 in traditional tonal
harmony except that traditionally both the min 7th interval and the
tritone interval required resolution and it is not ideal to have a tonic
chord that requires further resolution. Still, jazz and blues musicians
have been using I7, I6, Im7, Im6 and Im(maj7) chords in the exact same
fashion that the classical composers have used I and i.
> BTW, Bert Ligons book on Connecting Arpeggios is excellent. It taught me a
> basis for improv. (Don't base the quality of his book on my ability...)
>
> Chip L
--
Joey Goldstein
I am aware of Bert Ligon's credentials. His opinion on modal keys is
widespread in the jazz community. I just don't agree with it.
Bill Williams
> The cat who's telling me this, I just discovered, is Bert Ligon, who
> happens to be Director of Jazz Studies at USC, so I'll asume that I
> am, in fact, ranting through my hat.
Well, Max it sounds to me like apologies may be in order to Bert Ligon
on this issue. I'm sure you know the drill by now and this might be an
ideal time to export RMMGJ best practice to the Yahoo Group.
You remember the time-honoured procedure:
First you accuse Bert of being a Capitalist pirate and then of turning
your name into a verb.
If he is still unconvinced of the sincerity of your apology you follow
up by saying that his playing sucks and challenge him to meet you on
a bandstand anywhere, anytime.
That should do the trick!
Bill W.
Max Leggett
Williams) wrote:
But ... but ... I haven't even called him a Nazi yet!!!! :-)
As it happens, I could care less whether someone calls it D minor or D
Dorian, or if they refer to the key of F Lydian. Shorthand works just
fine. My training has been that modes do not equal keys, but as Joey
has noted it's pretty common throughout jazz. It's all just
nomenclature.
Tasman
D Dorian is what u get when u play a C Scale beginning on D and finishing on
D. I am a little unsure on how to elaborate, but I'm sure others can......
-=Tas=-
"Max Leggett" <mleg...@nospam.ca> wrote in message
news:3e02543c....@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
NDB
defined by the number of sharps and flats in the scale, while modes specify
the tonal focus of those scales. But Joey is FAR more knowledgable than me.
And Bert Ligon ain't nobody's fool.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------
A One-Man Jazz Band? Believe it!
http://www.cosmiccontamination.com
-------------------------------------------------------------
Joey Goldstein
NDB wrote:
>
> I'd say it's a mode in the key of C Major, not it's own key. Keys are
> defined by the number of sharps and flats in the scale,
That's not quite true.
Key signatures work on the principle that a piece of tonal music will be
*for the most part* based on a particular major or minor scale, which is
not always the case, as in tonal music with a modal coloring ascribe to
the I chord. Key signatures are used *for the most part* to make a piece
of music easiest to read but they should ideally also reflect an
understanding of the tonal characteristics of the music.
A blues in the key of C major will use the tone Bb more often than B
natural. Lots of folks would notate this with a key signature of 1 flat
even though the music is not in the key of F major or D minor. This
simply makes it easier to read and to write because there will be less
need for accidentals. But to understand the music a key signaute of C
major is more appropriate.
> while modes specify
> the tonal focus of those scales.
Keys specify the tone *and the chord* (major or minor) of tonal focus.
Truly modal music predates the use of chords, as we know them now, so
there was no chord associated with the tonic or the 'finalis' in modal
music, just a tone.
> But Joey is FAR more knowledgable than me.
> And Bert Ligon ain't nobody's fool.
>
> --
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> A One-Man Jazz Band? Believe it!
> http://www.cosmiccontamination.com
> -------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "Max Leggett" <mleg...@nospam.ca> wrote in message
> news:3e02543c....@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
> > The cat who's telling me this, I just discovered, is Bert Ligon, who
> > happens to be Director of Jazz Studies at USC, so I'll asume that I
> > am, in fact, ranting through my hat. I've still never heard of the
> > "key" of D Dorian, though. D minor, yes. D major, yes. But Dorian as a
> > key? Phrygian as a key?
> >
> > On Thu, 19 Dec 2002 23:13:54 GMT, mleg...@nospam.ca (Max Leggett)
> > wrote:
> >
> > >Joey, some guy is telling me that there's a thing called the key of D
> > >Dorian. I say it's the key of D minor. Can you elucidate? I went on to
> > >say that any mode with a minor third [phrygian, locrian, aeolian] was
> > >a minor key. So D phrygian is in the key of D minor, given that D is
> > >the tonic root. Am I ranting through my hat as usual?
> >
--