Can someone briefly explain how to find the tonal center...
Old Radios
but am wondering how you find it in a chord progression. I can get it
right when the changes are easy (like an obvious dom7 chord going to a
root). Is this easy to explain, or do I have to go buy a book?
TIA
Mark.
Joey Goldstein
It is not easy to explain. You could start looking at many books and/or
take a course or two.
Give me an example of something you are working on and I'll give you my
take on what I think is going on.
Old Radios
For instance, in How High the Moon:
G | G | Gm7 | C7
F | F | Fm7 | Bb7
Eb | Am7b5 D7| Gm | Amyb5 D7
G | Am7 D7| G Bb7 | D7
...etc
It's in the key of G. In the first two bars the tonal center would be G
(right?), but then it goes to F in measure 3, correct? Then shifts to
Eb at the Fm7?? What's going on in the 2nd measure of the 3rd line?
- can you always assume a dominant 7th means the tonal center is the
root note that dominant 7th points to? (e.g. D7 -> G, so if you see a
D7, the tonal center is G)
I'm kind of new to this - I want to understand and when I get it right
it sounds good soloing using the correct major scale over the correct
set of chords, but is this an "ear thing" (i.e. do I have to train my
ears), or is there some formula??
Any help would be appreciated.
Mark.
--
Mark Malin - Software Engineer
email: mark(dot)malin(at)thermo(dot)com
website: personalpages.tds.net/~jonarthr
"...there are Flying V's and then there are the ones shaped like peanuts..."
- my son commenting on guitars in general.
Joey Goldstein
Here's a copy of a post I just made a few days ago at rec.music.thoery.
It's on the same topic.
-------------
Andre Schnoor wrote:
>
> Hi all, one other thing I can't get a grip of: What's in a tonal center?
While at the present time I am intellectually and educationaly not
equipped to answer this question with any logical consistency I have
been toying around with the idea of writing a book about contemporary
tonal harmony that would address this topic among others.
Today I began mapping out a possible Table Of Contents for such a book.
You should be able to see, by the location of the topics about tonal
centers and keys that the question you are asking requires much detail
and attention to chronological developments in Western music.
Tonal Harmony For Contempoary Musicians
Table Of Contents
Pitch
Music Is Presented In Time
Rhythm Is The Primary Element In Music
Tones
Periodicity
Frequency Ratios
Via The Division Of Vibrating Strings
Via Modern Electronic Devices
The Harmonic Overtone Series
The Notion Of Being “In Harmony”
Scales
Intervals
Octaves (Diapasons) and Unisons
Perfect 5ths And 4ths
Tetrachords (The instrument)
Smaller Intervals
Pythagorean Scales
The Pentatonic Scale
The Diatonic Scale
The Chromatic Scale
Tempered Scales
The Desire For Pure 3rds
Just Intonation
A Brief Survey Of Pre-Tonal Compositional Practices
Tonal Centers In Music Based On The Diatonic Scale
Tetrachords (The Scales)
Medieval Modal Music
Polyphonic Counterpoint
Keys
Overview: A Key Is A Particular Type Of Tonal Center
Contemporary Notions Of The Modal Scales
Ionian
Mixo-Lydian
Lydian
Aeolian
Dorian
Phrygian
Locrian
The Major Scale
Characteristics Of The Tonal Center Based On The Ionian Mode
The Scale Degrees
The Tonic
The Dominant
The Subdominant
The Leading Tone
The Mediants
The Mediant
The Submediant
The Supertonic
Tendency Tones
The Leading Tone
The Subdominant
On The Dissonance Of The Tritone Interval And Its Resolution
The Minor Scales
Charateristics Of The Tonal Center Based On The Aeolian Mode
The Natural Minor Scale
The Subtonic Scale Degree
The Harmonic Minor Scale
Leading Tones In Minor Keys
Musica Ficta
The Melodic Minor Scale
Mixed Mode Techniques
On The Nature Of The 3 “Tonal Tones” Within A Key (The Tonic, The
Dominant and The Subdominant)
The Tonal Modes And Modal Keys
Possible Use Of Musica Ficta In Modal Scales
Characteristics Of The Lydian And Locrian Scales That Make Them Less
Suitable To Establish A Key Feeling
On The Difficulties Of Changing From One Key To Another
12 Tone Equal Temperament
Chords
Chords Emerge As A Unit Of Composition
The Concept Of Root
Roots Of Intervals
The Structural Root Of An Interval
The Acoustical Root Of an Interval
Root Of An Interval Upon Inversion
Roots Of Chords
The Structural Root Of A Chord
The Acoustical Root Of A Chord
Root Of A Chord Upon Inversion
The 3 Note Chords On The Scale Degrees In Major
The 4 Note Chords On The Scale Degrees In Major
An Introduction To Part Writing And Voice Leading
The Cadences In Major
Etc., Etc., Etc.
If I ever do get around to writing this book I will have to research
many of these topics and gain a clearer understanding myself before I
can start telling other people what's going on.
Comments welcome.
Joey Goldstein
Old Radios wrote:
>
> I was afraid of that.
>
> For instance, in How High the Moon:
>
> G | G | Gm7 | C7
> F | F | Fm7 | Bb7
> Eb | Am7b5 D7| Gm | Amyb5 D7
> G | Am7 D7| G Bb7 | D7
> ...etc
>
> It's in the key of G. In the first two bars the tonal center would be G
> (right?),
OK. You're talkiing about keys. Tonal centers and keys are usually the
same thing, but not always. For instance, in Medieval modal music there
is a tonal center but it is not a key. Some modern music that is not
quite atonal shifts keys around so much that no particular key is of any
primary importance. Etc.
> but then it goes to F in measure 3, correct?
Right. A temporary key change to the key of F major begins in bar 3 and
is completed at bar 5. Whether this is labeled as:
G:
IIm7__V7/of bVII |bVII
or
F:
IIm7__V7/ |I
is somewhat up to the guy writing the analysis.
> Then shifts to
> Eb at the Fm7??
Right. Another temporary key change into the key of Eb major begins on
the Fm7 and is completed by the arrival at the Eb chord.
G:
IIm7__V7/of bVI |bVI
or
Eb:
IIm7__V7/ |I
> What's going on in the 2nd measure of the 3rd line?
A return to the tonic of G is beginning here but instead of G major it
is hinting at the key of G minor and that's exactly where it arrives at
on bar 11.
> - can you always assume a dominant 7th means the tonal center is the
> root note that dominant 7th points to? (e.g. D7 -> G, so if you see a
> D7, the tonal center is G)
No. But that is more often than not the case. Some dom7 chords do not
function that way though.
Eg.
C / / / |Ab7 / / / |C / / / |
Now, while you may very well use the Db major scale to create melodies
from, on that Ab7 chord, in no way have you modulated into the key of Db
major or Db minor.
> I'm kind of new to this - I want to understand and when I get it right
> it sounds good soloing using the correct major scale over the correct
> set of chords, but is this an "ear thing" (i.e. do I have to train my
> ears), or is there some formula??
Determining the strongest chord-scale relationship for improvising on a
given harmonic situation is not always the same thing as understanding
what key the music is in at that point. But understanding the key sure
doesn't hurt either.
Your best bet for determining a good chord-scale relationship is to
start with the 4 chord tones as your default:
1 3 5 7
or
1 4 5 7 (for sus4 chords)
or
1 3 5 6 (for 6th chords)
All the choices are made with the non chord tones.
So ask yourself:
What type of 2 makes sense here?
What type of 4 makes sense here?
[On sus4 chords...What type of 2 and 3 makes sense here?]
What type of 6 makes sense here?
[On 6th chords....what type of 7th makes sense here?]
Let your ears guide you in deciding which of the possible in-between
notes work the best for any given harmonic situation.
Some of the criteria you might use to decide on your non chord tones are:
1. Choose them because they are in the scale of the key that the music
is in at that point, even if they are somewhat harsh sounding as
tensions on the chord of the moment.
2. Choose them because they sound nice, as tensions, on the chord of the
moment, even if they are outside of the key.
Now on a tune like How High The Moon it might be easier to *get
started* by using a single scale over a series of chords that are all in
the same key, rather than dealing with each chord as a separate
event/separate sound.
G maj scale F maj scale
G | G | Gm7 | C7
Eb maj scale
F | F | Fm7 | Bb7
G min scale
Eb | Am7b5 D7| Gm | Am7b5 D7
G maj scale Chord tones G maj scale
G | Am7 D7| G Bb7(9,#11,13)|Am7 D7 |
Old Radios
Mark.
Curt Sheller
<mjm...@NOSPAMwisc.edu> wrote:
Check out my book I have available at my site for purchase. (SHAMELESS
PLUG)
Harmonic Anaylsis for Scale Selection and Chord Substitution
88 pages
There is a sample (PDF) file of the book at
www.jazzguitarresources.com/books/RMA1.html
Book blurb from site:
"Applying harmonic anylysis priniciples with harmonized scale charts
for scale selection and chord substutition.
Harmonic Analysis is the understanding of the functional sequence of
chords. It is the process used to analyze the harmonic structure of a
progression, song or composition. This analysis is then used to make
scale selections for improvisation and chord substitution."
here is the TOC
Introduction
Basic Concept
The Harmonized Chord Scale
Root Movement Analysis
The Six Harmonic Principles (Overview)
Full Diatonic
Determining Tonality
Partial Diatonic
Secondary Dominants
VI7 - V of II
VII7 - V of III
I7 - V of IV
II7 - V of V
III7 - V of VI
Chained Secondary Dominant Cycles
Diminished Chords?
Internal Modulation
Determining a Modulation
Pivot or Double Function Chords
Common Modulations
Unresolved
Chromatic
C ycle
Common Chord Functions and Progressions
Common Major Keys
Common Chord Progressions
Chord's Harmonic Function
Common Harmonic Sequences
Im ImL7 Im7 Im6
Im7 Im7+5 Im6
Picardy Third
Chromatic Sevenths
Scale Selection
Vertical Scale Choices
Horizontal Scale Choices
Full Diatonic Chords
Partial Diatonic
Internal Modulation
Unresolved
Cycle
Chromatic
The Lydian Scale Uses vs Ionian Scale
Chord & Scale Substitution Principles
Direct Substitutions
Replacement
Expansion
Substitution Characteristics
Superimposed
Non Superimposable
Note Substitution
Inversions
Linking
Re-harmonizations
Diatonic Substitutions
Passive
Active
The Minor Third Substitution Principle
bVII7
bII7
III7
Worksheet Examples
Harmonized Chord Charts
Major Key
Minor Key
Harmonic Minor
Tonic Minor
Ionian
Dorian
Phrygian
Lydian
Mixolydian
Aeolian
Locrian
Blues Major
Blues Minor
Pentatonic
Summary
Index
You can order a downloadable copy with backup CD mailed to your or hard
copy from the site.
Pretty simple clear approach to finding out just what you need. Geared
to practical application.
Curt Sheller
www.jazzguitarresources.com
David Morton
shel...@bellatlantic.net (Curt Sheller) wrote:
> You can order a downloadable copy with backup CD mailed to your or hard
> copy from the site.
Am I missing something here?
CCNow says "this vendor ships to US addresses only" and there's no way to
select *only* the PDF download.
It asks where you want the CD shipped, and if you can't give it a US
address then there's no option to proceed.
Old Radios
really appreciate the detail. I'll probably have a ton of questions in a
bit here...
Mark.
Marc Sabatella
There is a distinction to be made between the overall key of the tune -
which is rightly called the tonal center - and the key that seems most
relevant for a given phrase within the tune, that is also rightly called
the tonal center. Identifying these is relatively easy if you are aware
of the distinction. For example, in "How High The Moon" that was being
used as an example, it is obvious that the overall tonal center is G.
It is just as obvious that in bars 3-6, there is a local tonal center of
F.
There are some cases where local centers occur that are tricky to
identify, but for the most part, looking for a dominant seventh chord
resolving down a fifth is a dead giveaway that will tell you what you
need to know the majority of the time.
Note "How High The Moon" is rather unusual for a jazz standards in that
it goes so quickly to such an unrelated tonal center and then sits there
a moment and goes even further away. Most standards, if they go
somewhere else for a moment, it's usually to key whose root is diatonic
in the original key, and then immediately return. The only place we
typically see modulations like the ones in "How High The Moon" is at the
bridge of an AABA form.
--------------
Marc Sabatella
ma...@outsideshore.com
The Outside Shore
Music, art, & educational materials:
http://www.outsideshore.com/
Jurupari
>typically see modulations like the ones in "How High The Moon" is at the
>bridge of an AABA form.
I'm not sure I follow that. Changing a tonic major to a minor which acts as a 2
to another key a whole step below is a pretty common modulation. It's in the
bridge of Joy Spring, but the A section of Call me.
To me, Moon has three tonal centers, G, F and Eb. Every change in the song in
each of these tonal centers is reflected in dozens of other songs relative to
the key, so it's pretty ordinary movement.
Clif Kuplen
Marc Sabatella
> >The only place we
> >typically see modulations like the ones in "How High The Moon" is at
the
> >bridge of an AABA form.
>
> I'm not sure I follow that. Changing a tonic major to a minor which
acts as a 2
> to another key a whole step below is a pretty common modulation. It's
in the
> bridge of Joy Spring, but the A section of Call me.
I don't know "Call Me", but note I did say it was common in bridges.
Although it looks like I was saying only going *into* the bridge, you
are right - it happens often enough *within* the bridge as well,
although probably more often around bars 4-5 of the bridge. But I know
hundreds of standards, and can only think of a couple that have
modulations like this within the A section ("What's New" also comes to
mind, although it does down to bVI, of course, not bVII). In any case,
my point is that modulations to tonal centers whose tonics are not
diatonic to the original key is not a common device. For the most part,
if we are trying to "briefly explain how to find the tonal center", as
per the subject line, this is not a case that comes up all that often.
Much more often the A section stays more plainly in one key, and any
non-diatonic chords aren't really setting up a new tonal center.
> To me, Moon has three tonal centers, G, F and Eb. Every change in
the song in
> each of these tonal centers is reflected in dozens of other songs
relative to
> the key, so it's pretty ordinary movement.
Sure, the movement is common enough. It's the location I am talking
about. Not unheard of, just uncommon. Really, how many other tunes can
you need that do this in the first four bars? For every one you name, I
can probably list a hundred that don't.
Jurupari
>you need that do this in the first four bars? For every one you name, I
>can probably list a hundred that don't.
>
I see your point. I could come up with a lot of bridges but I can't think of
any more A sections. Well, that one movement in Bluesette but that starts at
4maj and after the first 4.
After reading your active roster of tunes awhile back, you probably could come
up with a hundred to one. In light of that, I'm surprised I know any song you
don't know - Call Me was a cheesy vegas type song anyway, strictly for the
leisure suit crowd.
Clif
Max Leggett
>Call Me was a cheesy vegas type song anyway, strictly for the
>leisure suit crowd.
You got something against my inlaws????
Jurupari
Hey, mi cretins, su cretins, assuming your inlaws are anything like
mine....outlaws.
Of course I have nothing against them - I'm not with the RCMP!
:o)
Clif
Bob Agnew
"Marc Sabatella" <ma...@outsideshore.com> wrote in message
news:vrvdrco...@corp.supernews.com...
Jurupari
>
forgot about that one! I guess Marc owes you a hundred standards now. :o)
maybe another fifty for Solar since it's not 100%.
Clif
Richard Bornman
Jurupari
three fifty and counting, Marc...:o)
How High the Moon
Tune Up
Call Me
Solar after the first change
maybe a few more.
Clif
Marc Sabatella
> >Afternoon in Paris
>
> three fifty and counting, Marc...:o)
Hmmm. I posted my rewpertoire list a while back, right? I think it was
around 450 tunes. So I'm still covered :-) BTW, since "Tune Up" was
mentioned, no fair also listing "Countdown". Ditto on listing
"Ornithology" given "How High The Moon".
Note, you're much more likely to find exceptions to my generalization in
the output of jazz composers than in the works of Gershwin, Porter, etc.
But then, you're also much more likely to run into tunes that simply
have no clear key center in the first place.
Jurupari
>mentioned, no fair also listing "Countdown".
...I'll have to admit it did cross my mind, which makes me wonder if I've been
reading jazz newsgroups too long. :o)
Thinking of those changes got me to thinking of some songs with similar motion,
but 2-5's to maybe minor thirds or half steps instead of whole steps. I don't
know any standards that do that, but some jazz tunes do.
Clif
Marc Sabatella
> Thinking of those changes got me to thinking of some songs with
similar motion,
> but 2-5's to maybe minor thirds or half steps instead of whole steps.
I don't
> know any standards that do that, but some jazz tunes do.
Could be, but actually, I'd still be liable for those. I wasn't saying
it was the modulation down a whole step specifically that was rare - it
was the fact that *any* modulation at all occurred so quickly into the
tune. Normally, when we have some sort of ii-V motion to some place
other than I within an A-section, it isn't really a modulation, but just
a temporary tonicization - what I term a transition - and the target
chord immediately turns around and functions relative to the original
key. This happens *all* the time. I'm talking about things like
| C | Gm7 C7 | F | F#dim (or Fm, or Bb7) ...
This can't be a modulation to F (and if you recognize what song I had in
mind in providing the above example, you'll understand why I word it
that way and will be groaning in dismay about now); it's just a way of
getting to the F chord, a place we might have gone to anyhow without the
Gm7-C7. Probably more than half of jazz standards do something like
this. What makes How High The Moon (and the other few tunes mentioned)
unusual is that they go somewhere that one would *not* normally have
gone to anyhow without the little modulation - and again, they do this
within their A-sections instead of waiting for the bridge like all the
other standards.
Jurupari
>it was the modulation down a whole step specifically that was rare - it
>was the fact that *any* modulation at all occurred so quickly into the
>tune.
I see - it is rarer, but happens - I remember a Joe Farrell tune I used to do
called Molten Glass, and a Larry Carlton fusion piece called Mulberry Street
that did maybe a 2-5 to a tonic a minor third below in the first 4.
>This happens *all* the time. I'm talking about things like
>
>| C | Gm7 C7 | F | F#dim (or Fm, or Bb7) ...
>
>This can't be a modulation to F (and if you recognize what song I had in
>mind in providing the above
>example, you'll understand why I word it
>that way and will be groaning in dismay about now)
Well, it looks a lot like Misty in C if you choose the Fm or Amazing Grace with
one of the others in the same bar as F. I don't see those as getting out of C
yet, either. But I'm probably missing some obvious humor or the right title to
give up the groan -
wait a minute, This Can't Be Love? Ok, I'm slow, but I get there! :oP
In general I go a bit farther than that before I think 'modulation' - to me, if
a song or a section of one has nothing but the tertian chord scale chords or
sevenths whose roots are scale tones, the doms or minors a fifth or half step
above those or doms on the accidentals (since they're tritones of the doms on
the scaletones) those all reference the key, so they're part of the 'tonal
center'.
That would cover the opening of On Green Dolphin St - I'm not sure how that
would lie with you - I see it as still in C since all the bass notes are until
it 2-5's to Eb at the thirteenth bar, and I'd read Cm as being the tritone sub
of the leading tone dominant to run it via the train of logic in the preceding
paragraph. In hindsight - I don't think about stuff like that while playing, of
course.
Of course it takes the major scale and some other tonal resources to cover
those harmonic circumstances, but I have some simple thinking shortcuts that
help get all that internalized as sounds.
Because of that, I'm generally hesitant to offer ng input on tonal centers,
because I think I include more in the concept than most folks do, but it's
consistent with me regardless of what song.
Clif
Marc Sabatella
> But I'm probably missing some obvious humor or the right title to
> give up the groan -
> wait a minute, This Can't Be Love? Ok, I'm slow, but I get there! :oP
Bingo! Not bad, considering there are only about a thousand tunes that
start off that way.
> In general I go a bit farther than that before I think 'modulation' -
to me, if
> a song or a section of one has nothing but the tertian chord scale
chords or
> sevenths whose roots are scale tones, the doms or minors a fifth or
half step
> above those or doms on the accidentals (since they're tritones of the
doms on
> the scaletones) those all reference the key, so they're part of the
'tonal
> center'.
That's about how I see it too.
> That would cover the opening of On Green Dolphin St - I'm not sure how
that
> would lie with you
Absolutely. Nothing even resembling a modulation until the ii-V-I in
the key of the bIII in bars 13-15. The previous non-diatonic chords
that occur are all explainable relative to the original key. In
particular, the opening is just a long drawn out variation on I-vi-ii-V.
> Because of that, I'm generally hesitant to offer ng input on tonal
centers
I'm reluctant for another, more cynical reason - too many people ask
about tonal centers where they are really asking for scale shortcuts.
Eg, I don't want to have to analyze anything myself, or think about
individual chord/scale relationships; I just want someone to tell me
what scale to use so I can go back to forgetting all about the chords.
OK, I admit that's harsh.