"Miles Davis was a Kenny G fan"

slot

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Oct 23, 2006, 4:53:39 AM10/23/06

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It's not easy being G

By SEAN DALY
Published October 19, 2006

Chomp on this, jazz snobs: Miles Davis was a Kenny G fan.

You read that right. One of the most revered trumpeters in jazz history
adored one of the most reviled saxophonists. In the '80s, Mr. G even
opened shows for the famously moody "Prince of Darkness."

"On many occasions, Miles would come into my dressing room and tell me
what I was doing was great," says the 50-year-old Kenneth Gorelick, who
tonight headlines the Clearwater Jazz Holiday in Coachman Park. "If
Miles says I'm doing good, and some critics say I stink, why would I
listen to them?"

Kenny is defending his art as he cruises through Los Angeles. "When you
drive in L.A., you have plenty of time to talk," he laughs. For a guy
who has sold 75-million albums, he's incredibly easy to reach. Mere
seconds after I sent a message to his Blackberry, he called: "Hey, man,
let's chat!"

You gotta love the G Man.

Or not.

It has become fashionable to rip and ridicule the Clearwater Jazz
Holiday for not doing enough to showcase "serious" jazz. But when
organizers announced that this year's main attraction was Kenny G,
whose lazy-river soprano sax style is the very definition of "smooth,"
jazzbos set a new record for vitriol.

Kenny G, the haters cried, is not jazz. He's Mantovani with a perm!

G knows the drill. Great achievement, more jokes. Great achievement,
more jokes.

He's one of the biggest-selling jazz musicians of all time. He's a
punch line in Wayne's World 2. He made the Guinness Book of World
Records in 1997 for longest note recorded on a saxophone (E flat; 45
minutes, 47 seconds). He has inspired a series of demeaning Kenny G
one-liners (Kenny G walks into an elevator and shouts, "Wow! This
rocks!").

"Those comments are meaningless to me," says the star, who grew up in
Seattle and cut his chops playing with such R&B greats as Barry White.
"I'm (playing music) from inside my spirit. It has nothing to do with a
calculated, intellectual decision that says 'I can sell more records if
I play this way.'

"I'm playing from the heart," he adds. "That's the part that people
miss."

G has been a polarizing presence since 1981, when he was discovered by
Arista kingpin Clive Davis. Davis is known for finding vocal talent -
Whitney Houston, Alicia Keys and Barry Manilow to name a few - but he
took a chance on signing the instrumentalist. The partnership has been
very challenging - and extremely profitable.

"I've been with Clive Davis for 25 years," says G, whose breakout
album, 1986's Duotones, and its ubiquitous hit Songbird, charted high
on both the jazz and pop charts. "He definitely has a feel for what
will be well-received."

Davis and G "have butted heads on many occasions," the player adds, but
their battles almost always pay off. They famously fought over the
creation of 1994 holiday album Miracles - Davis wanted more vocals,
fewer tracks; G wanted the opposite; so they compromised - "and that
became the most successful holiday record of all time. A few more
holidays, and it will pass the 10-million mark."

A Jewish man with the biggest-selling Christmas album? That's so G:
great achievement, more jokes.

Ask Kenny about his groupies, and he gives you this earnest answer: "I
think my groupies are the college and high school saxophone players.
There's nothing I like to talk about more than technique."

Oh, Kenny.

In an upcoming issue, Golf Digest will name Kenny G one of the greatest
golfing musicians of all time, a field that includes such legendary
duffers as Bob Hope, Bing Crosby and Alice Cooper. He's a +1 handicap,
good enough to do some damage on the PGA tour.

"I've had daydreams about shooting the lowest score in the history of
golf," G says. "I shot a 49 in my dream."

But whenever he's on the links, all eyes aren't on his swing but rather
on the long ponytail pulled through his baseball cap. Kenny's bouncy,
curly hair - a 'do as dubiously beloved as Michael Bolton's old
receding mullet - should have its own PR agent.

Will Kenny get his locks shorn anytime soon?

"My hair is the way it's been for a long while," he says with a tired
laugh. "I haven't gotten a haircut."

On Nov. 14, G will release his new album, I'm in the Mood for Love: The
Most Romantic Melodies of All Time. Some will say the album is
brilliant; some will say the album is painful. It will sell tons of
copies; it will inspire tons of jokes.

It's all part of the unbearable lightness of G-ing.

"As an artist you're supposed to do your thing just the way you feel
it," he says. "I play saxophone the way I play saxophone. The music
that I play, that's what I feel inside."

http://www.sptimes.com/2006/10/19/Floridian/It_s_not_easy_being_G.shtml

Five Sharp

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Oct 23, 2006, 4:57:38 AM10/23/06

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So what?

#####

"slot" <jazz...@yahoo.com> schreef in bericht
news:1161593619.1...@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...

imloafin

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Oct 23, 2006, 6:08:01 AM10/23/06

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Aw, he probably laughs all the way to the bank - and back!

The 'G man' is a consumate pro, plying his commercial appeal to the
maximum. Like him or not, he has no doubt drawn some of his fans toward
authentic Jazz via sax music - and that's good for the 'real cats.'
Finance.

As a 'hack', I know many fellow players who often accept 'cash flow'
gigs. Given a choice, most players prefer a hip, 'blowing' gig. But,
when the rent is due, the car is in the repair shop, etc, etc, ect,
that cruise ship gig with a dance band or theater pit gig is a wallet
booster. Finance.

slot

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Oct 23, 2006, 6:08:20 AM10/23/06

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Five Sharp wrote:

> So what?
>
>

I'm sure if he had been around, Miles would have invited the G-man to
sit in on that recording.

tom...@yahoo.com

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Oct 23, 2006, 7:38:19 AM10/23/06

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Chef Boyardee sells millions of cans of what some believe to be great
pasta.

zoot

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Oct 23, 2006, 7:52:04 AM10/23/06

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miles enjoyed music other than jazz. he loved sly stone and prince for
there music as well as ability to sell it. i don't think he felt that
way about g's music and i don't put much weight behind what he might
have diplomatically said to someone about " what i was doing was great
". I'm sure of one thing. miles would never say that g played good jazz

moma...@gmu.edu

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Oct 23, 2006, 8:03:58 AM10/23/06

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Here we go again. Slot, millions of people, like you, think Kenny G is
a jazz player. Isn't that enough? You love to point out that he sells a
lot of records--although nobody denies the fact. But that's not enough
for you--you have to try to ram him down the throats of people on this
list. Why? Why not just sit and bask happily in the fact that millions
of people agree with you? Are you that insecure in your musical
judgement?

No matter how many records he sells, it's still going to be clear to me
that "the Gman" is selling pablum. It doesn't matter what Miles may or
may not have said (although why we should take "the g-man's" word for
it is unclear): KennyG plays puerile, shallow, trite, facile and
unimaginative crap. But lots of people disagree with me--I'm fine with
that. Why aren't you?

Steven Bornfeld

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Oct 23, 2006, 9:11:27 AM10/23/06

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imloafin wrote:
> Aw, he probably laughs all the way to the bank - and back!
>
> The 'G man' is a consumate pro, plying his commercial appeal to the
> maximum. Like him or not, he has no doubt drawn some of his fans toward
> authentic Jazz via sax music - and that's good for the 'real cats.'
> Finance.
>
> As a 'hack', I know many fellow players who often accept 'cash flow'
> gigs. Given a choice, most players prefer a hip, 'blowing' gig. But,
> when the rent is due, the car is in the repair shop, etc, etc, ect,
> that cruise ship gig with a dance band or theater pit gig is a wallet
> booster. Finance.

My guess is Gorelick has no problem with the rent. He could choose to
do real music (assuming he can), but has not.
There's nothing wrong with making a ton of money. Better his way than
Cheney's (for example). Does he grouse about being "reviled", or is
this just his mom and agent?
I think Esteban, while he is gently ribbed in the guitar newsgroups
(except for his claim of Segovia's "endorsement") gets a lot of respect
as a hard-working guy who has overcome personal difficulties to be a big
success. He doesn't claim to be someone he isn't, and no one is whining
about how he should be considered "one of the greats".

Steve

slot

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Oct 23, 2006, 9:49:41 AM10/23/06

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moma...@gmu.edu wrote:

> you have to try to ram him down the throats of people on this
> list.

How can I force anyone to do anything through usenet? YOU choose to
open the message, YOU choose to read it, YOU choose to reply to it.

You.

Your choice.

slot

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Oct 23, 2006, 9:51:13 AM10/23/06

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Now you're apologizing for Miles?

How low will you go, zooty?

slot

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Oct 23, 2006, 9:54:06 AM10/23/06

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Steven Bornfeld wrote:

> My guess is Gorelick has no problem with the rent. He could choose to
> do real music (assuming he can), but has not.

It's certainly very real to the 75 million who have pruchased one of
his recordings or a ticket to one of his shows.

It's just not music that's "real" to you. And there's nothing wrong
with that. But please don't try to dictate what others should like, or
find "real."

Des Higgins

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Oct 23, 2006, 10:27:04 AM10/23/06

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"slot" <jazz...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1161611646.1...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...

But the HAIR!!!!!
And just look at the way he is holding that trumpet

http://www.associatedentertainment.com/aec/images/main/Kenny-G.jpg

Sean

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Oct 23, 2006, 10:29:40 AM10/23/06

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Miles was a James Taylor fan too. Do you think he could have sat in at
the Kind of Blue sessions?

--
Always be sincere, but never be serious.
Allan Watts

Mark & Steven Bornfeld

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Oct 23, 2006, 10:31:08 AM10/23/06

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slot wrote:
> Steven Bornfeld wrote:
>
>
>> My guess is Gorelick has no problem with the rent. He could choose to
>>do real music (assuming he can), but has not.
>
>
> It's certainly very real to the 75 million who have pruchased one of
> his recordings or a ticket to one of his shows.
>
> It's just not music that's "real" to you. And there's nothing wrong
> with that.

Exactly right.

But please don't try to dictate what others should like, or
> find "real."

Now, how could I do that?

Steve
>

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Mark & Steven Bornfeld

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Oct 23, 2006, 10:34:56 AM10/23/06

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Des Higgins wrote:

I am jealous about the hair. But I'm jealous of almost anyone's
hair--most of the folks posting here, the famous and the obscure. I'm
jealous of Jimmy Bruno's hair, Charlie Robinson. I'm jealous of Gerry's
hair, of Steve H's hair. OK, I'm not so jealous of Jim Hall's hair,
just his talent and humility. Oh, and Robert Conti's hair--very jealous.

Joey Goldstein

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Oct 23, 2006, 11:15:39 AM10/23/06

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When's Kenny gonna do one of those recordings, like he did with Louis
Armstrong, but with Miles?
Maybe he could play Seven Steps To Heaven.
I'd like to hear that!

--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/joeygoldstein
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

Joe Finn

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Oct 23, 2006, 11:32:29 AM10/23/06

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"Five Sharp" <d.on...@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:d2164$453c8408$d55d8e9b$26...@news.chello.nl...
> So what?
>
> #####

My sentiments exactly. ......joe

--
Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net

cl...@claymoore.com

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Oct 23, 2006, 1:13:00 PM10/23/06

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On Oct 23, 5:08 am, "imloafin" <imloa...@windstream.net> wrote:

> The 'G man' is a consumate pro, plying his commercial appeal to the
> maximum. Like him or not, he has no doubt drawn some of his fans toward
> authentic Jazz via sax music - and that's good for the 'real cats.'

Ok, I'll bite. No, it's not good for other jazz players. The G man can
play whatever he wants, but his widespread appeal speaks volumes about
the lack of discrepancy of the listening public in the US today. I've
never heard of anyone starting out liking Kenny G and then getting
hipped to Josh Redman or Chris Potter. I don't think it happens. People
always talk about his financial success, etc., but we're talking about
business here, not quality. It is the job of marketing people to sell,
and they've sold trusting Americans everything from Thalidamide to
cigarettes to mercury dental fillings to Enron stock to the war in
Iraq. In light of those things why is it that Kenny's commercial
success is considered so valid?

Clay

Max Leggett

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Oct 23, 2006, 1:21:46 PM10/23/06

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On 23 Oct 2006 10:13:00 -0700, "cl...@claymoore.com"
<cl...@claymoore.com> wrote:

I'm with Clay on this: KG has nothing to do with jazz, and there's no
spillover from KG to real music. He's marketing himself at people who
can't get into anything more harmonically and rhythmically complex
than easy listening, but who desperately want to appear hip. Easy
listening is what their parent listened to: labelling it Smooth Jazz
was a touch of marketing genius. I admire KG for his accomplishments:
he's a very successful pop musician: so's Britney.

--------------------------------------
Without music, life is a mistake.
Freidrich "Hep Daddy" Nietzsche
--------------------------------------

ES175_Player

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Oct 23, 2006, 1:33:48 PM10/23/06

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Isn't it kind of funny when a jazz cat get's any kind of financial
success, the old cry comes out. "He's gone commercial"..

Not a Kenny G fan by any stretch of the imaginiation, but I have heard
similar language used to describe, Wes, Benson, Satchmo, Nat King Cole,
Ray Charles, etc, etc...

Pesonally...
I don't see a thing wrong with making money...
A lot better to have some than not having it..
Hard to eat "Idealism"..LOL...

Dan Adler

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Oct 23, 2006, 1:35:38 PM10/23/06

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cl...@claymoore.com wrote:
> I've never heard of anyone starting out liking Kenny G and then getting
> hipped to Josh Redman or Chris Potter. I don't think it happens.

Clay,

The first "jazz guitar" recording I ever heared was an easy listening
sampler which had Wes playing "Wind Song". That's a pretty commercially
oriented arrangement, but still one of my all time favorites. I'm sure
we agree that KG is no Wes, but I think the path from "easy listening"
to jazz is a valid one. Kenny G can't lead you directly to Anthony
Braxton but he can lead to David Sanborn, who could lead to Brecker and
then you're pretty much there.

-Dan
http://danadler.com

ken

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Oct 23, 2006, 1:42:48 PM10/23/06

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cl...@claymoore.com wrote:

> always talk about his financial success, etc., but we're talking about
> business here, not quality. It is the job of marketing people to sell,
> and they've sold trusting Americans everything from Thalidamide to
> cigarettes to mercury dental fillings to Enron stock to the war in
> Iraq.

Oh please... I'd take bad music, even disco and 80s pop over any of
those things you listed. That's just a ridiculous comparison.

I've been into music my whole life and listened to a lot of trash and a
lot of great things (don't ask me to tell you which is which)... but I
can say one thing for sure; listening to music makes me happy.

I can't stand KG either (I get rashes even if it's playing far away...)
but I'm sure he makes a lot of people very, very happy and not just the
people who make money off of it. You can't really say that about the
other things you mention above (like war).

>In light of those things why is it that Kenny's commercial
> success is considered so valid?

I've never heard anyone claim validity to KG's music... Who cares if
he makes a lot of money off of something mislabled as jazz, and who
cares if he doesn't swing. Heck, Pepsi now has a soda named Jazz!
(this is true! check it out. I was delighted to see the word "jazz"
in my local deli until I realized it was some new soda pop).

Whether someone sells a lot of records or not, I'm not going to hold
something against someone who creates music that some people enjoy,
good or bad...

Ken

ken

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Oct 23, 2006, 1:53:32 PM10/23/06

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Dan Adler wrote:

> The first "jazz guitar" recording I ever heared was an easy listening
> sampler which had Wes playing "Wind Song". That's a pretty commercially
> oriented arrangement, but still one of my all time favorites. I'm sure
> we agree that KG is no Wes, but I think the path from "easy listening"
> to jazz is a valid one. Kenny G can't lead you directly to Anthony
> Braxton but he can lead to David Sanborn, who could lead to Brecker and
> then you're pretty much there.

I think *any* music people like is good. I went from Kiss to Ozzy
Osbourne, Judas Priest, Van Halen back to Robert Johnson and back
forwards to Wes -> Metheny etc...

For me, if there was no Ozzy, I doubt I would be into jazz.

Ken

UCLAN

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Oct 23, 2006, 1:56:41 PM10/23/06

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moma...@gmu.edu wrote:

> Here we go again. Slot,

Exactly. Here we go again. If nobody replied to slot/sum1/moron's
troll posts, he would soon tire of posting to himself, and go away.
Just say NO to "I never start Kenny G threads" slot/sum1/moron.

Jonathan

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Oct 23, 2006, 2:07:01 PM10/23/06

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ken wrote:
> I can't stand KG either (I get rashes even if it's playing far away...)
> but I'm sure he makes a lot of people very, very happy and not just the
> people who make money off of it. You can't really say that about the
> other things you mention above (like war).

Yeah, but how do ya know that listening to that kinda stuff won't give
you cancer or warts or something? :-)

Boy, there's nothing like a good Kenny G thread to get this group
cranked up, and throwing Miles into it was pure genius! I bet it goes
to 100 messages. I think a nomination for Troll of the Year is in order
here!

Glenn Bruns

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Oct 23, 2006, 2:10:15 PM10/23/06

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I'm willing to give Kenny the benefit of the doubt and assume
that he simply has bad taste.

ken

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Oct 23, 2006, 2:12:51 PM10/23/06

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Jonathan wrote:

> Yeah, but how do ya know that listening to that kinda stuff won't give
> you cancer or warts or something? :-)

You're right. It does make me sick for sure...

But the anger, hatred, bitterness etc... that KG seems to arouse in
people will surely cause cancer to the agitated.

Gerry

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Oct 23, 2006, 2:23:10 PM10/23/06

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On 2006-10-23 10:13:00 -0700, "cl...@claymoore.com" <cl...@claymoore.com> said:

The troll that this week is called "slot1" is such slime. But Clay is a
well-meaning and non-malevolent individual, so I'll break my rule of
avoiding a slot dragnet topic.

>> The 'G man' is a consumate pro, plying his commercial appeal to the
>> maximum. Like him or not, he has no doubt drawn some of his fans toward
>> authentic Jazz via sax music - and that's good for the 'real cats.'
>
> Ok, I'll bite. No, it's not good for other jazz players. The G man can
> play whatever he wants, but his widespread appeal speaks volumes about
> the lack of discrepancy of the listening public in the US today.

I don't think Kenny G is "good" or "bad" for music. Anymore than Rudy
Vallee was "good" or "bad" or any other wholly commercial construct.
Bobby Sherman. David Cassidy. Etc. I don't like them and consider
them off little to no historic, musical, or artistic value. But then I
don't either, and I don't consider myself inherently "bad".

I do think that Kenny G provides some leverage for listeners migrating
from pop/rock to jazz, not because Kenny is or isn't jazz per se, but
because Kenny is instrumental music. I think that is a MAJOR
sea-change for consumers.

Witness the critical utility of three of the other major trends in
popular music: country, "personal" women singer-songwriters, and
rap/hip-hop. To remove the lyrical component of these three genres is
to let every lick of air out of their tires. There is nothing left.
These musics are almost exclusively "poetry" delivery systems, with
music as marginally irrelevant "accent" or accoutrement.

So to move someone from Faith Hill or Ice Biggie Snoop is a sweeping
change in their thinking and consumer habits. It's like going from
lemonade to Bourbon.

That's not to say that it isn't MORE difficult for such a listener to
move from Kenny G to say, Dave Holland, than it is for them to move to
the "slow jam" du jour. And there is every reason to think they will
NEVER move to Dave Holland unless they begin playing a musicial
instrument or dating/marrying someone who is a bona fide jazz listener
or musician.

> I've never heard of anyone starting out liking Kenny G and then getting
> hipped to Josh Redman or Chris Potter. I don't think it happens.

How about to Chris Botti? I don't know Botti well, but saw a piece of
a PBS performance that included popular music artists (Sting among
others). I was very impressed (startled, actually) when my jaundiced
ear recognized that these were substantive players. I continued
watching just to find out who the hell it was.

I think the Kenny G devotee could move into Chet Baker stuff, and know
at least one person that made exactly that transition. What's after
Baker? Early-50's Davis, maybe. Coltrane's "Ballads" collections. I'm
unsure.

More likely it will be Diana Krall, Madeleine Peroux, Harry Konnick or
some other--you guessed it--lyric delivery system. I still think that
leads them further towards real jazz that most any other route they
could take.

> People always talk about his financial success, etc., but we're talking about
> business here, not quality.

Absolutely. Most musicians consider him a waste of space, but he's a
street vendor. If pretzels didn't sell he'd change to hot dogs. Or
maybe open a furniture store.

> It is the job of marketing people to sell, and they've sold trusting
> Americans everything from Thalidamide to cigarettes to mercury dental
> fillings to Enron stock to the war in Iraq.

In fairness the marketer rarely cares what's in the bag. And that's
what it should be vis-a-vis the division of labor. They also sell
wonderful inventions, cutting-edge cures and works of beauty as well.

> In light of those things why is it that Kenny's commercial success is
> considered so valid?

"So" valid? His commercial success is measured in dollars. He is "so"
valid in that respect. He cooks it up over here, put's it in that
bucket, and and sells it at the counter over there. I don't care if
they eat it, hump it, or hang it on their rear-view mirror, it's the
object they bought, and they seemed pleased with their acquisition.

I've met people at parties that find I'm a player and mention Kenny G.
I tell them straight out I think he's incompetent as a player, and that
is music has as much integrity and depth as any upscale whore. She's
pretty to look at, and for enough money she'll do what she's told. But
she will not develop into a "relationship", help you grow as a human,
or anything else. She's a vessel for your simplest needs. So is Kenny
G.

I've gotten people really steamed with this, but I do my best to
educate them about what it is and how they are identifying themselves
when they purchase his products. And always what other products could
provide them something more valuable. In the end they come away
educated, if in no other way than they know where Kenny G is on the
cultural food chain, and how they are affiliated by their association.

I'm sure they listen to Kenny a little differently after my handiwork.
I ensure it. Whether or not they go buy the Desmond/Bickert I
recommended, I can't say.
--
What a day this has been, what a rare mood I'm in.

gtr

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Oct 23, 2006, 2:38:19 PM10/23/06

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On 2006-10-23 10:56:41 -0700, UCLAN <nom...@thanks.org> said:

> moma...@gmu.edu wrote:
>
>> Here we go again. Slot,
>
> Exactly. Here we go again. If nobody replied to slot/sum1/moron's
> troll posts, he would soon tire of posting to himself, and go away.

Preposterous. If in a room alone he'd be baiting the mirrror till the
end of his days. He's proved only two things: stamina and his lack of
cognitive ability. Also: malevolence.

> Just say NO to "I never start Kenny G threads" slot/sum1/moron.

Sometimes substantive discussions ensue. But usually we have to change
the topic somewhat. I think it's always useful for musicans (and music
fans) to ponder the intent and ploys of popular music marketers and
tastes-makers. I think it's good to ask oneself periodically, "What
they hell am I frittering my hours away with" and whether it's
worthwhile or just habitua.

But explicitly it's importnat to avoid directing "dialogue" towards
dennis-the-menace direclty (schlock,slug1 etc.) Imagine a child that
likes to pull pig-tails--until he's 80 years old...
--
Thank you and have a nice day.

Mark & Steven Bornfeld

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Oct 23, 2006, 3:01:15 PM10/23/06

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cl...@claymoore.com wrote:

>
> On Oct 23, 5:08 am, "imloafin" <imloa...@windstream.net> wrote:
>
>
>>The 'G man' is a consumate pro, plying his commercial appeal to the
>>maximum. Like him or not, he has no doubt drawn some of his fans toward
>>authentic Jazz via sax music - and that's good for the 'real cats.'
>
>
> Ok, I'll bite. No, it's not good for other jazz players. The G man can
> play whatever he wants, but his widespread appeal speaks volumes about
> the lack of discrepancy of the listening public in the US today. I've
> never heard of anyone starting out liking Kenny G and then getting
> hipped to Josh Redman or Chris Potter. I don't think it happens. People
> always talk about his financial success, etc., but we're talking about
> business here, not quality. It is the job of marketing people to sell,
> and they've sold trusting Americans everything from Thalidamide to
> cigarettes to mercury dental fillings

Now you've done it!

Steve

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Oct 23, 2006, 3:22:44 PM10/23/06

to

In article <1161630699.5...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
paulyho...@hotmail.com says...

>
> MY problem is I have a hard time beleiving that he is realy playing
> what he feels inside. Seems more plausible that he is playing whatever
> is easiest to sell to middle aged women.
>
>
>

I got something to sell to middle-aged women right here.
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus

ken

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Oct 23, 2006, 3:22:42 PM10/23/06

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hotchkisstrio wrote:

> But, can't fault Kenny for making the money either. He should do at
> least one straight ahead recording in his life just to prove he can,
> then people would respect him alot more.

Why? This is silly. He does what he does. We don't like it. Who
cares? He has nothing to prove to us.

> I think the assumption is he
> can only play smooth jazz, but who knows maybe the guy can actually
> blow through changes too?

Well, I doubt that. But that's really not relevant.

> George Benson has taken the smooth jazz money too, but I he gets little
> criticism for it. I think because he proved himself to be a monster
> bebop player before he went commercial.

I've heard plenty of criticism about Benson. But you are right, he can
actually play incredibly well...

Ken

Max Leggett

unread,

Oct 23, 2006, 3:25:32 PM10/23/06

to

On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 15:22:44 -0400, tom walls <tw...@cornell.edu>
wrote:

>In article <1161630699.5...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
>paulyho...@hotmail.com says...
>>
>> MY problem is I have a hard time beleiving that he is realy playing
>> what he feels inside. Seems more plausible that he is playing whatever
>> is easiest to sell to middle aged women.
>>
>>
>>
>
>I got something to sell to middle-aged women right here.

I doubt if they'd buy something as worn out as that.

tom walls

unread,

Oct 23, 2006, 3:59:32 PM10/23/06

to

In article <453d1716.55717978@shawnews>, kidk...@gmail.com says...

> On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 15:22:44 -0400, tom walls <tw...@cornell.edu>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <1161630699.5...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
> >paulyho...@hotmail.com says...
> >>
> >> MY problem is I have a hard time beleiving that he is realy playing
> >> what he feels inside. Seems more plausible that he is playing whatever
> >> is easiest to sell to middle aged women.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I got something to sell to middle-aged women right here.
>
> I doubt if they'd buy something as worn out as that.
>

Who you been talking to??!!?

gtr

unread,

Oct 23, 2006, 4:05:30 PM10/23/06

to

On 2006-10-23 12:22:42 -0700, "ken" <kubo...@yahoo.com> said:

>> George Benson has taken the smooth jazz money too, but I he gets little
>> criticism for it. I think because he proved himself to be a monster
>> bebop player before he went commercial.
>
> I've heard plenty of criticism about Benson. But you are right, he can
> actually play incredibly well...

The criticism I've heard of Benson is that he abandoned jazz for
popular music. I'd be glad to criticize him for that, since I miss
him. I assume his desire to send his kids to college trumps my
desires. I can't criticize what he does in either genre, because he
does them both well and at a high level of quality.

The reason Benson doesn't correlate to Kenny G relative to the pursuit
of financial success is this: Kenny G plays a sanitized puerile milksop
version of "jazz" that muddles genres. Aesthetically I think it fails
in all of them, though that's a personal opinion not a categorical
reality. The variety of jazz he plays is crude baggy-pants shlock.

George Benson, the jazz guitarist, became a pop-music singer. What's to
complain? He does very entertaining pop music. If he was once a jazz
guitarist, that's interesting news. But to the public he's a popular
music singer, just like Glen Campbell, or John Denver, who happens to
play the guitar.

RobSm

unread,

Oct 23, 2006, 4:09:24 PM10/23/06

to

On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 10:57:38 +0200, "Five Sharp" <d.on...@chello.nl>
wrote:

>So what?
>
>#####

:0)

Nice one.

ken

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Oct 23, 2006, 4:15:33 PM10/23/06

to

gtr wrote:

> The criticism I've heard of Benson is that he abandoned jazz for
> popular music. I'd be glad to criticize him for that, since I miss
> him. I assume his desire to send his kids to college trumps my
> desires.

But how do you knows he doesn't really like that pop stuff? He's said
in interviews that that's what he always wanted to do. He played in
R&B bands before he played jazz (I think...).

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean Benson doesn't either and
that he's only doing it for the money.

> The reason Benson doesn't correlate to Kenny G relative to the pursuit
> of financial success is this: Kenny G plays a sanitized puerile milksop
> version of "jazz" that muddles genres.

I don't think KG plays jazz at all. It's just instrumental pop as far
as I've heard.

Ken

Michael L Kankiewicz

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Oct 23, 2006, 4:17:19 PM10/23/06

to

On 23 Oct 2006, hotchkisstrio wrote:

> MY problem is I have a hard time beleiving that he is realy playing
> what he feels inside. Seems more plausible that he is playing whatever
> is easiest to sell to middle aged women.

...who only order white wine when out.

Dan Adler

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Oct 23, 2006, 4:25:39 PM10/23/06

to

ken wrote:
> I don't think KG plays jazz at all. It's just instrumental pop as far
> as I've heard.

I happen to think he has pretty impressive technique and a very
distinctive sound... very, well, smooth.

-Dan
http://danadler.com

Mark & Steven Bornfeld

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Oct 23, 2006, 4:28:48 PM10/23/06

to

gtr wrote:

Search the archives for a thread a couple of years ago about Glen
Campbell cutting GB.
..."puerile milksop...baggy-pants shlock"--nice touch!

Mark & Steven Bornfeld

unread,

Oct 23, 2006, 4:29:50 PM10/23/06

to

Dan Adler wrote:

I like chunky.

Derek

unread,

Oct 23, 2006, 4:29:46 PM10/23/06

to

You know, I always thought Pat Metheny said it best.

"Not long ago, Kenny G put out a recording where he overdubbed himself
on top of a 30+ year old Louis Armstrong record, the track "What a
Wonderful World". With this single move, Kenny G became one of the few
people on earth I can say that I really can't use at all - as a man,
for his incredible arrogance to even consider such a thing, and as a
musician, for presuming to share the stage with the single most
important figure in our music.

This type of musical necrophilia - the technique of overdubbing on the
preexisting tracks of already dead performers - was weird when Natalie
Cole did it with her dad on "Unforgettable" a few years ago, but it was
her dad."

"I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize."
-- Stephen Wright

Max Leggett

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Oct 23, 2006, 4:34:16 PM10/23/06

to

On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 15:59:32 -0400, tom walls <tw...@cornell.edu>
wrote:

>> >

>> >I got something to sell to middle-aged women right here.
>>
>> I doubt if they'd buy something as worn out as that.
>>
>Who you been talking to??!!?
>--

Yo mama.

Patrick L

unread,

Oct 23, 2006, 5:16:36 PM10/23/06

to

<moma...@gmu.edu> wrote in message
news:1161605038.3...@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
>
> Here we go again. Slot, millions of people, like you, think Kenny G is
> a jazz player. Isn't that enough? You love to point out that he sells a
> lot of records--although nobody denies the fact. But that's not enough
> for you--you have to try to ram him down the throats of people on this
> list. Why? Why not just sit and bask happily in the fact that millions
> of people agree with you? Are you that insecure in your musical
> judgement?
>
> No matter how many records he sells, it's still going to be clear to me
> that "the Gman" is selling pablum. It doesn't matter what Miles may or
> may not have said (although why we should take "the g-man's" word for
> it is unclear): KennyG plays puerile, shallow, trite, facile and
> unimaginative crap. But lots of people disagree with me--I'm fine with
> that. Why aren't you?
>

For the kind of dough G makes, I would gladly play puerile, shallow, trite,
facile and
unimaginative crap, and once I have done that, I will be so rich that I can
open up a club in which profit is not necessary, so musicians can just do
their thing and screw the audience. They can dig it, or leave.

Well, I can dream, can't I ?

.

Patrick

Gerry

unread,

Oct 23, 2006, 5:27:19 PM10/23/06

to

On 2006-10-23 12:22:44 -0700, tom walls <tw...@cornell.edu> said:

>> MY problem is I have a hard time beleiving that he is realy playing
>> what he feels inside. Seems more plausible that he is playing whatever
>> is easiest to sell to middle aged women.
>
> I got something to sell to middle-aged women right here.

Seems you're getting more mileage than usual out of that line.

gtr

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Oct 23, 2006, 5:40:06 PM10/23/06

to

On 2006-10-23 13:15:33 -0700, "ken" <kubo...@yahoo.com> said:

> gtr wrote:
>
>> The criticism I've heard of Benson is that he abandoned jazz for
>> popular music. I'd be glad to criticize him for that, since I miss
>> him. I assume his desire to send his kids to college trumps my
>> desires.
>
> But how do you knows he doesn't really like that pop stuff?

I didn't say he didn't like it. Hell, I like it. I assume he likes it
too. I said he abandoned the jazz world for the pop world.

> Just because you don't like it doesn't mean Benson doesn't either and
> that he's only doing it for the money.

Not sure where you're getting this. I didn't say I didn't like it. I
like the jazz Benson and the pop Benson. The jazz Benson is gone. I
miss him.

>> The reason Benson doesn't correlate to Kenny G relative to the pursuit
>> of financial success is this: Kenny G plays a sanitized puerile milksop
>> version of "jazz" that muddles genres.
>
> I don't think KG plays jazz at all. It's just instrumental pop as far
> as I've heard.

This reminds me of the "I'm not an artist" perspective. I've heard a
lot of musicians say they are not artists because they are "not that
good". So one has to be a GOOD artist to be an artist at all. Ergo
there is no such thing as a bad artist; just artists and non artists.

I guess Kenny G is playing jazz. Very very bad jazz with more
determination to commercial inoffensiveness that musical exploration.
Also true of limited players who were never particularly successful I
assume. If one can come up with a definition of jazz that excludes
Kenny G but doesn't exclude David Sanborn, I'd be curious to hear that.
It's got a lot of at least faux improv, it has appropriate
instrumentation, etc.

At genre level, as I've said before, "smooth jazz" sounds like
"contemporary urban" without the vocals. Redefining jazz to exclude
those we consider inept and mercantile hardly seems worth the effort.

Jonathan

unread,

Oct 23, 2006, 5:59:55 PM10/23/06

to

ken wrote:
> I don't think KG plays jazz at all. It's just instrumental pop as far
> as I've heard.

I agree that it's instrumental pop, not jazz.

Not that there's anything wrong with pop music, instrumental or
otherwise. If people enjoy it, fine. But calling it jazz because it's
played on a saxophone belies a pretty limited understanding of what
jazz is, in my view.

BTW, there's nothing new about instrumental pop. When I was a kid we
used to laugh at our parents for listening to Montovani. He recorded
all these watered down, string-heavy, elevator music versions of
various standards -- and of Beatles songs, Motown songs and other
pop/rock hits. I think that music served much the same purpose for that
generation that so-called "smooth jazz" serves today for its audience.

This is music that's familiar, but doesn't really command your
attention. It makes for pleasant background music that doesn't call
attention to itself. There usually nothing going on with the drums but
very simple and straightforward time. You can talk over it and it never
gets in the way. A lot of people like that.

This is music that doesn't challenge the listener, but takes them back
to a time when maybe they did listen a little more actively. Just as
Montovani's version of Misty took their parents back in the 60s, Wayman
Tisdale's "Ain't No Stoppin' Us Now" now takes the boomers back to
their youth without getting in the way of the conversation.

I'm not praising this, nor am I condemming it. It just is the way a lot
of people want their music. For serious jazz musicians, coming to terms
with a world in which many people don't really listen to music is
enormously frustrating. But I think it's something we're all just going
to have to learn to live with.

Message has been deleted

tomb...@jhu.edu

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Oct 23, 2006, 6:01:35 PM10/23/06

to

Miles liked all kinds of music, but I never heard of him liking
anything so lame as Gorelick. I would bet that Gorelick is lying about
this.

unread,

Oct 23, 2006, 7:38:23 PM10/23/06

to

To what purpose?

Joey Goldstein

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Oct 23, 2006, 7:39:17 PM10/23/06

to

I dunno about that.
For a while there Miles' music wasn't all that different than what KG plays.

--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/joeygoldstein
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca

slot

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Oct 23, 2006, 7:47:08 PM10/23/06

to

ken wrote:

> I think *any* music people like is good. I went from Kiss to Ozzy
> Osbourne, Judas Priest, Van Halen back to Robert Johnson and back
> forwards to Wes -> Metheny etc...
>
> For me, if there was no Ozzy, I doubt I would be into jazz.

Right on, Ken. I'd even add Cecil Taylor to that list.

slot

unread,

Oct 23, 2006, 7:50:00 PM10/23/06

to

cl...@claymoore.com wrote:
> On Oct 23, 5:08 am, "imloafin" <imloa...@windstream.net> wrote:
>
> > The 'G man' is a consumate pro, plying his commercial appeal to the
> > maximum. Like him or not, he has no doubt drawn some of his fans toward
> > authentic Jazz via sax music - and that's good for the 'real cats.'
>
> Ok, I'll bite. No, it's not good for other jazz players. The G man can
> play whatever he wants, but his widespread appeal speaks volumes about
> the lack of discrepancy of the listening public in the US today. I've
> never heard of anyone starting out liking Kenny G and then getting
> hipped to Josh Redman or Chris Potter. I don't think it happens.

Probably more often than you think. It's just the large number of
intolerant "real jazz" fans make it difficult for someone to admit they
got started with the G-man, or someone you and your ilk consider
equally undeserving of respect.

slot

unread,

Oct 23, 2006, 7:59:16 PM10/23/06

to

Sampling is old news. I can't believe people still make an issue of
this. Like colorizing movies.

sgo...@changethisparttohardbat.com

unread,

Oct 23, 2006, 8:16:59 PM10/23/06

to

In rec.music.bluenote Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
: For a while there Miles' music wasn't all that different than what KG plays.

?? What period was that ??

cl...@claymoore.com

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Oct 23, 2006, 8:42:24 PM10/23/06

to

On Oct 23, 6:50 pm, "slot" <jazzji...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Probably more often than you think. It's just the large number of
> intolerant "real jazz" fans make it difficult for someone to admit they
> got started with the G-man, or someone you and your ilk consider
> equally undeserving of respect.

You don't know my "ilk," and to guess what I'm about based on this
simple post would be a fool's quest.

Joey Goldstein

unread,

Oct 23, 2006, 8:58:22 PM10/23/06

to

Towards the end of his life.
Miles was always more musical mind you (IMO...he always sounded like
Miles), and had more musical people around him (like Marcus Miller), but
the style of music he was playing (Michael Jackson's tune and Cyndi
Lauper's tune for example) wasn't all that much different than what KG
tends to play.

What I got from some of the things I read about Miles about those times
(like his auto-biography...as I recall) was that he was less concerned
with jazz music or "serious" music and more concerned with what I think
he called "social" music.

ken

unread,

Oct 23, 2006, 9:08:21 PM10/23/06

to

gtr wrote:

> I didn't say he didn't like it. Hell, I like it. I assume he likes it
> too. I said he abandoned the jazz world for the pop world.

Well, you can say that, but this guy is playing music that he loves to
play. Who cares if that's jazz or not? I'm also not sure if he's
abandoned the jazz world as he has been sighted at many jazz gigs
around town and has been known to be very supportive and mentors some
of the young players coming up...

Someone made a stupid comment about Rodney Jones creating "meaningless
music" or something like that at the yahoo jazz guitar group. RJ
himself then posted that he actually loves to play that stuff (smooth
etc...). That was his last post there, I think.

I know you're not saying that about Benson but...

> > Just because you don't like it doesn't mean Benson doesn't either and
> > that he's only doing it for the money.
>
> Not sure where you're getting this.

You said " I assume his desire to send his kids to college trumps my
desires". That sort of implied to me that you think Benson was doing
pop just for the money (to send his kids to college) and that you
didn't like it (didn't match your desires).

Sorry for misinterpreting.

> > I don't think KG plays jazz at all. It's just instrumental pop as far
> > as I've heard.
>
> This reminds me of the "I'm not an artist" perspective. I've heard a
> lot of musicians say they are not artists because they are "not that
> good". So one has to be a GOOD artist to be an artist at all.

Well, no. I'm not making any judgement at all about his music. I'm
not making any judgement about his artistic merit either. That's
someone else saying that.

I just don't consider what I heard of KG to be jazz. If you put lyrics
to what he plays and Whitney Houston sang it, it would just be simple
pop. KG sounds like a guy who brought a saxophone to a karaoke bar.
I'm not saying that's bad at all. I've always fantasized about
bringing my guitar to a karaoke bar.

> I guess Kenny G is playing jazz.

I disagree as above. What part of KG is jazz? I don't like arguing
about genres/labels either, but I never thought of this one as
particularly difficult.

> "contemporary urban" without the vocals. Redefining jazz to exclude
> those we consider inept and mercantile hardly seems worth the effort.

Again, it's not about excluding those we consider inept. This has
nothing to do with it. From what I hear of KG, it is not jazz. You
yourself has said Benson has "abandoned the jazz world". Is this
because suddenly you think Benson is inept? No. It's because Benson
is playing pop music.

This has nothing to do with competence. I guess it has to do with some
basic understanding of jazz. (but don't ask me to define it or draw
the line somewhere...)

Ken

ken

unread,

Oct 23, 2006, 9:38:04 PM10/23/06

to

See? You guys think when I say "I don't think KG plays jazz at all"
that I am exluding the possibility that he has impressive technique and
a distinctive sound!

This might come from jazz snobbism, I don't know. When I say this is
jazz or not jazz, it is not a qualitative judgement at all. I've heard
just as much dreadful, awful jazz as bad pop...

There's plenty of impressive technique outside of jazz!

Having said that, do you have any recommendations on where I can hear
some of KG's impressive technique?

Or on second thought, never mind... My music budget for the year is
gone... ;)

Ken

gtr

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Oct 23, 2006, 10:34:25 PM10/23/06

to

On 2006-10-23 17:58:22 -0700, Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> said:

> sgo...@changethisparttohardbat.com wrote:
>> In rec.music.bluenote Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>> : For a while there Miles' music wasn't all that different than what KG plays.
>>
>> ?? What period was that ??
>>
>
> Towards the end of his life.

> Miles was always more musical mind you (IMO...he always sounded like
> Miles), and had more musical people around him (like Marcus Miller),
> but the style of music he was playing (Michael Jackson's tune and Cyndi
> Lauper's tune for example) wasn't all that much different than what KG
> tends to play.

So the selection of ONE Lauper or Jackson tune makes him "not all that
different from KG"? Surprising. Exactly what period or you talking
about by years? I don't think that Miles ever sounded remotely as
empty of musical idea and and trajectory as Miles on his worst day. I
saw him three times in his last three years of his life. Some of the
most amazing performances I've seen. And though a Davis fan, it's not
like I'm a slavish loyalist. I think Miles brought something into the
energy of the room that was as much about walking in the shadow of
history as anything else. But still they were stunning.

Kenny G has never recorded anything remotely substantive as any ONE cut
of Miles in later years or otherwise. I'd like to know an inferior or
commercial tune so palid that it could be compared appropriately to any
one grandiose tune by Kenny G. I'd really like to know what that would
be.

> What I got from some of the things I read about Miles about those times
> (like his auto-biography...as I recall) was that he was less concerned
> with jazz music or "serious" music and more concerned with what I think
> he called "social" music.

That may be the case. But I don't think it was for his performers
which were *historically* free to be themselves, nor the result, which
was vastly more "mature" from Davis and his band, than the shlock that
Kenny G turns out. And that's not so much a blast of Kenny as a
support for Davis.

Gerry

unread,

Oct 23, 2006, 10:37:27 PM10/23/06

to

I gave a reference to one personal opinion, and related my own with a
colorful metaphor. That's two references to subjective viewpoint.
There's nothing stated or implied that refers to anything remotely
absolute.

But if you think there it's drivel that "music is subjective", I'd like
to know how it is something more than that.

Joey Goldstein

unread,

Oct 23, 2006, 10:47:03 PM10/23/06

to

gtr wrote:
> On 2006-10-23 17:58:22 -0700, Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> said:
>
>> sgo...@changethisparttohardbat.com wrote:
>>> In rec.music.bluenote Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>> : For a while there Miles' music wasn't all that different than what
>>> KG plays.
>>>
>>> ?? What period was that ??
>>>
>>
>> Towards the end of his life.
>
>
>> Miles was always more musical mind you (IMO...he always sounded like
>> Miles), and had more musical people around him (like Marcus Miller),
>> but the style of music he was playing (Michael Jackson's tune and
>> Cyndi Lauper's tune for example) wasn't all that much different than
>> what KG tends to play.
>
> So the selection of ONE Lauper or Jackson tune makes him "not all that
> different from KG"? Surprising.

Yes. Surprising that when you use quotation marks to quote me you don't
quote the words that I actually said. Not surprising then that you make
up your own context into which your bogus quote frames my comments.

> Exactly what period or you talking
> about by years? I don't think that Miles ever sounded remotely as empty
> of musical idea and and trajectory as Miles on his worst day. I saw him
> three times in his last three years of his life. Some of the most
> amazing performances I've seen. And though a Davis fan, it's not like
> I'm a slavish loyalist. I think Miles brought something into the energy
> of the room that was as much about walking in the shadow of history as
> anything else. But still they were stunning.
>
> Kenny G has never recorded anything remotely substantive as any ONE cut
> of Miles in later years or otherwise. I'd like to know an inferior or
> commercial tune so palid that it could be compared appropriately to any
> one grandiose tune by Kenny G. I'd really like to know what that would be.
>
>> What I got from some of the things I read about Miles about those
>> times (like his auto-biography...as I recall) was that he was less
>> concerned with jazz music or "serious" music and more concerned with
>> what I think he called "social" music.
>
> That may be the case. But I don't think it was for his performers which
> were *historically* free to be themselves, nor the result, which was
> vastly more "mature" from Davis and his band, than the shlock that Kenny
> G turns out. And that's not so much a blast of Kenny as a support for
> Davis.

If I really cared about any of this I might argue with you about it.
I've said what I have to say. Take it or leave it. But please read it
again and try to read what I actually wrote.

gtr

unread,

Oct 23, 2006, 11:04:51 PM10/23/06

to

On 2006-10-23 18:08:21 -0700, "ken" <kubo...@yahoo.com> said:

> gtr wrote:
>
>> I didn't say he didn't like it. Hell, I like it. I assume he likes it
>> too. I said he abandoned the jazz world for the pop world.
>
> Well, you can say that, but this guy is playing music that he loves to
> play. Who cares if that's jazz or not?

I do, because I like his jazz playing and would like to buy more CD's
in that genre. Make sense?

> I'm also not sure if he's
> abandoned the jazz world as he has been sighted at many jazz gigs
> around town and has been known to be very supportive and mentors some
> of the young players coming up...

I don't know if what he does on weekends. Apparently his sightings
haven't made it to a CD.

>>> Just because you don't like it doesn't mean Benson doesn't either and
>>> that he's only doing it for the money.
>>
>> Not sure where you're getting this.
>
> You said " I assume his desire to send his kids to college trumps my
> desires". That sort of implied to me that you think Benson was doing
> pop just for the money (to send his kids to college) and that you
> didn't like it (didn't match your desires).
>
> Sorry for misinterpreting.

Yours were logical assumptions. I don't assume his desire for a wider
audience made him do a naughty thing. I have respect for him as an
artist, and so I assume it was a decision he made with his accountant.

I think a desire for a wider audience moved him to popular music, which
he loved anyway and did *simultaneously" with his early jazz career.
His Verve tune from (his "Lucky Old Sun" on "Goodies" is still better
than Sinatra's and Armstrongs in my view. His first album in the
"modern" vein, Breezin' ('76), was produced and arranged by a god of
mine, Claus Ogerman. Ogerman had done "Symbiosis" a masterwork with
Bill Evans, in '74. He'd done mind-bending arrangments for Jobim
forever but became the co-owner of Jobim's 1972 "Jobim", and
*domination* of the 1973 Jobim project "Matita Pere"--I practically
tattoo'd my ass with his name.

Breezin' is palid gutless 1976 pop. Admittedly Benson's guitar, voice
and the sleepwalk Ogerman arrangments were pretty. But when I saw that
Benson was doing an album with God, I was kinda surprised there was not
nirvana involved. Breezin' is thin. The original Breezin', with a
truly adventurous Gabor Szabo and Bobby Womack was a classic.
Benson's is a Percy Faith version, gutted and anemic.

That straightened out my thinking of what Breezin' was suppoed to be:
not a jazz album. He's done much better since, but he is not playing
jazz. My view.

So I didn't get any more jazz out of him and I miss that.

>>> I don't think KG plays jazz at all. It's just instrumental pop as far
>>> as I've heard.
>>
>> This reminds me of the "I'm not an artist" perspective. I've heard a
>> lot of musicians say they are not artists because they are "not that
>> good". So one has to be a GOOD artist to be an artist at all.
>
> Well, no. I'm not making any judgement at all about his music. I'm
> not making any judgement about his artistic merit either. That's
> someone else saying that.
>
> I just don't consider what I heard of KG to be jazz. If you put lyrics
> to what he plays and Whitney Houston sang it, it would just be simple
> pop.

Maybe, maybe not. The "if Al Gore had become president" theory also
loses traction for me. I don't know from with lyricas and and Whitney.
That's like saying if you used venison instead of pasta and pine oil
instead of marinara what would you have? I don't know, but it wouldn't
be dinner!

> KG sounds like a guy who brought a saxophone to a karaoke bar.
> I'm not saying that's bad at all. I've always fantasized about
> bringing my guitar to a karaoke bar.

When you do it let me know. I think about that too.

>> I guess Kenny G is playing jazz.
>
> I disagree as above. What part of KG is jazz? I don't like arguing
> about genres/labels either, but I never thought of this one as
> particularly difficult.

You know how many posts this question can avalanche. I think of it as
"American pop music", relatively staid and direct in it's predictable
chord structure, instrumental, and a focus on *improvisation* as the
bulk product that is being produced. Head-solos-head is thin, but for
me jazz is about solo improvisation.

>> "contemporary urban" without the vocals. Redefining jazz to exclude
>> those we consider inept and mercantile hardly seems worth the effort.
>
> Again, it's not about excluding those we consider inept. This has
> nothing to do with it. From what I hear of KG, it is not jazz. You
> yourself has said Benson has "abandoned the jazz world". Is this
> because suddenly you think Benson is inept? No. It's because Benson
> is playing pop music.

I think JG is inept jazz. I think Benson is remarkably good popular
music. I know from previous experience that Benson can play jazz, but
prefers not to apparently. I don't know what JG is capable of or not, I
just now he produces very unsatisfying, poorly presented jazz. Again
and again, my viewpoint.

> This has nothing to do with competence. I guess it has to do with some
> basic understanding of jazz. (but don't ask me to define it or draw
> the line somewhere...)

When we back up to the "what is jazz" question we always hit the same
wall. So let's don't.

Gerry

unread,

Oct 23, 2006, 11:06:18 PM10/23/06

to

On 2006-10-23 18:38:04 -0700, "ken" <kubo...@yahoo.com> said:

> See? You guys think when I say "I don't think KG plays jazz at all"
> that I am exluding the possibility that he has impressive technique and
> a distinctive sound!

I don't. Speaking of Adler's, I think Larry Adler had a stunning
harmonica technique. But he wasn't a jazz player.

> This might come from jazz snobbism, I don't know. When I say this is
> jazz or not jazz, it is not a qualitative judgement at all. I've heard
> just as much dreadful, awful jazz as bad pop...

How is it that JB is not bad jazz--but instead is bad pop?

UCLAN

unread,

Oct 24, 2006, 12:15:37 AM10/24/06

to

gtr wrote:

> George Benson, the jazz guitarist, became a pop-music singer. What's to
> complain? He does very entertaining pop music. If he was once a jazz
> guitarist, that's interesting news. But to the public he's a popular
> music singer, just like Glen Campbell, or John Denver, who happens to
> play the guitar.

He was always a singer. One of his first recordings as a leader, "It's
Uptown W/ The George Benson Quartet", has him crooning to "Summertime"
"Stormy Weather", and "A Foggy Day", but also shows his guitar expertise
on songs such as "Willow Weep for Me." It was the commercial success of
1976's "Breezin'" (an enjoyable recording but not jazz) that started him
down the road of "pop" and "smooth."

Ludmila Borgschatz-Thudpucker, MD

unread,

Oct 24, 2006, 12:19:12 AM10/24/06

to

<cl...@claymoore.com> wrote in message
news:1161650543....@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

The ilk should be shedding their antlers in another couple of months.

UCLAN

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Oct 24, 2006, 12:19:59 AM10/24/06

to

Dan Adler wrote:

>>I don't think KG plays jazz at all. It's just instrumental pop as far
>>as I've heard.
>

> I happen to think he has pretty impressive technique and a very
> distinctive sound... very, well, smooth.

Does "impressive technique" and "distinctive sound" (?) make it jazz?

No.

Joey Goldstein

unread,

Oct 24, 2006, 12:27:54 AM10/24/06

to

And by the way...

I agree with most of what you've said above ....and I still stand by my
comments.
I'm guessing that you don't see how that could be, but that's the way it is.

Gerry

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Oct 24, 2006, 2:25:57 AM10/24/06

to

On 2006-10-23 19:47:03 -0700, Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> said:

unread,

Oct 24, 2006, 4:24:27 AM10/24/06

to

Max Leggett wrote:
> On 23 Oct 2006 16:31:57 -0700, "slot" <jazz...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >ES175_Player wrote:
> >
> >> Isn't it kind of funny when a jazz cat get's any kind of financial
> >> success, the old cry comes out. "He's gone commercial"..
> >>
> >
> >
> >Not funny at all. Just sad, small, and pathetic. But it usually comes
> >not from the musicians themselves, but from the fans and amateur
> >wannabes. I daresay you'll find any "real" musicians on these boards
> >copping this sorry attitude. They're too busy working and making music.
>
> Wrong again, needy little crossposter. This NG is chock full of
> professional musicians who think KG's an utter wanker. Rathyer like
> yourself.
>

unread,

Oct 24, 2006, 8:45:22 AM10/24/06

to

In article <200610231427198930-somewhere@sunnycalif>,
some...@sunny.calif says...
> On 2006-10-23 12:22:44 -0700, tom walls <tw...@cornell.edu> said:
>
> >> MY problem is I have a hard time beleiving that he is realy playing
> >> what he feels inside. Seems more plausible that he is playing whatever
> >> is easiest to sell to middle aged women.
> >
> > I got something to sell to middle-aged women right here.
>
> Seems you're getting more mileage than usual out of that line.
>
I gave it a shot.
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus

ken

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Oct 24, 2006, 9:25:55 AM10/24/06

to

gtr wrote:

> bulk product that is being produced. Head-solos-head is thin, but for
> me jazz is about solo improvisation.

The Grateful Dead is the greatest jazz ever... ;)

> prefers not to apparently. I don't know what JG is capable of or not, I
> just now he produces very unsatisfying, poorly presented jazz.

I guess you mean KG, not JG. I think I am getting a step closer to
agreeing with someone's rant above about KG being mismarketed as
jazz... It seems like people actually believe it!

But never mind. Enough of this (which seems to be cross posted all
over the place!)...

Des Higgins

unread,

Oct 24, 2006, 9:25:54 AM10/24/06

to

"zoot" <aba...@ns-design.com> wrote in message
news:1161691113....@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

>
> slot wrote:
>> Five Sharp wrote:
>>
>> > So what?
>> >
>> >
>>
>> I'm sure if he had been around, Miles would have invited the G-man to
>> sit in on that recording.
>
> you may be sure. how bout aker bilk?

Aker Bilk had 2 stories about the Cork (city in Ireland) jazz festival.
I used to go to said festival which was a humungous orgy of bad weather and
Guinness with a background blur of snippets of When the Saints go Marching
in as constant background music.

He described trying to get into one of his own gigs and finding a huge crowd
jammed into teh entrance. He founght his way to teh door and the bouncer
stopped him. He asked to get in; the bouncer laughed; he said I am Aker
Bilk; the bouncer said, I am Napoleon, you are still not getting in.

He was asked if Cork audiences were very knowledgeable about jazz. He said,
sure!; they never stop talking about it; especially during my solos.

Des Higgins

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Oct 24, 2006, 9:27:05 AM10/24/06

to

"slot" <jazz...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1161688089.3...@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

>
> cl...@claymoore.com wrote:
>
>
>> I've
>> never heard of anyone starting out liking Kenny G and then getting
>> hipped to Josh Redman or Chris Potter. I don't think it happens.
>

My favourite Kenny G albums were

Birth of the Smooth
and
Kind of Beige

>
> http://tinyurl.com/yftspu
>

Mark & Steven Bornfeld

unread,

Oct 24, 2006, 9:59:40 AM10/24/06

to

imloafin wrote:

> hi doc, ya sez:
>
> "There's nothing wrong with making a ton of money."
>
> Yep, that Cerac machine is pricey, 'eh? (wink...)

I have a web buddy who's been banging the drum for Cerec for years. Of
course, he says it will SAVE me money. Cool technology, but...I'm
passing on it. When I make a ton of money, I'll let you know how that
feels.

>
> PS, is the cheesecake at Junior's still as good as I remember it being?
> mmm...

Believe it or not, I don't go to Junior's too often. They say it is,
but then nothing is really as good as you remember it, is it? (sniff)

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Joey Goldstein

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Oct 24, 2006, 10:10:22 AM10/24/06

to

Simply that there was a time when Miles himself was basically playing
instrumental pop music that *stylistically* is not very far removed, if
at all, from the type of instrumental pop music that Kenny G. plays now.
It could probably be argued that Miles' music from this period was a big
influence on all the smooth jazz players including KG.

I like listening to the Miles of that period too. Even with all his
frailty and the lightness of the musical statement it was still Miles.
His sound was there. His personality was there. His musicality was there.

I don't like listening to KG play that stuff. It seems empty to me.

But it's still the same musical style.

slot

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Oct 24, 2006, 10:15:54 AM10/24/06

to

moma...@gmu.edu wrote:
> slot wrote:
> > moma...@gmu.edu wrote:
> >
> > > you have to try to ram him down the throats of people on this
> > > list.
> >
> > How can I force anyone to do anything through usenet? YOU choose to
> > open the message, YOU choose to read it, YOU choose to reply to it.
> >
> > You.
> >
> > Your choice.
>
> right--I know that, I chose to reply. I was there wehn I di it. And I
> chose to replay by asking you--you--why you insist on posting messages
> like this to a list where people disagree.

"Disagree"? With what? Some people like vanilla ice cream, some like
chocolate.

slot

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Oct 24, 2006, 10:18:47 AM10/24/06

to

Joey Goldstein wrote:

>
> I like listening to the Miles of that period too.

Me, too. I much prefer the ends of his career. The stuff in between
was too forced and overly pretentious.

Joey Goldstein

unread,

Oct 24, 2006, 10:21:45 AM10/24/06

to

Dan Adler wrote:

> ken wrote:
>> I don't think KG plays jazz at all. It's just instrumental pop as far
>> as I've heard.
>
> I happen to think he has pretty impressive technique and a very
> distinctive sound... very, well, smooth.
>

> -Dan
> http://danadler.com
>

I think that KG must have been pretty good at one time or he would not
have been able to hold his own on the session/sideman scene that he was
involved in before he broke out as a solo act. He's certainly not a
"great" player but he is competent.

But of course, he just doesn't play anything technically or emotionally
challenging within the jazz idiom. He most likely is incapable of
playing convincingly in that bag. Being a good session player and being
a good jazz player are worlds apart.

In the case of "smooth jazz", I'm sort of glad there are people out
there who still like labelling music, because when I'm told that
something is "smooth jazz" I know, generally, not to look for anything
there that resonates strongly with my own musical tastes.

Joey Goldstein

unread,

Oct 24, 2006, 10:24:33 AM10/24/06

to

Gerry wrote:

> Point taken. What was your meaning. What were the marked similarities?

And also, that I don't see it as being all that far-fetched that Miles,
at some point, did say he liked KG or KG's stuff.

Joey Goldstein

unread,

Oct 24, 2006, 10:32:54 AM10/24/06

to

Everything you've ever posted to usenet has been forced and overly
pretentious.

sgo...@changethisparttohardbat.com

unread,

Oct 24, 2006, 10:45:41 AM10/24/06

to

In rec.music.bluenote Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:

: sgo...@changethisparttohardbat.com wrote:

: > In rec.music.bluenote Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
: > : For a while there Miles' music wasn't all that different than what KG plays.
: > ?? What period was that ??
: Towards the end of his life.

I disagree completely. Sure he might have played a pretty tune here
and there (like you said the Lauper tune), but his music in the latter
period of his life was VERY high energy. I strongly doubt you'd hear
Kenny G playing "You're Under Arrest" or "Wrinkle". That band did
some wild stuff.

Scott

RickH

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Oct 24, 2006, 11:11:53 AM10/24/06

to

KG is reviving standards to millions and thats a good thing I guess.

Now he just needs to make it all less sterile and also make his soloing
more interesting than the same 2 or 3 modal riffs he always falls into,
with the crazy-long "long notes" thrown in. But apparently thats what
sells. I also think he should play Tenor more as that would help him
break free of his signature sound. I dont think too many people here
would turn him down if he asked them to play guitar for the CD tour
though.

But his playing is too one dimensional, formulaic and predictable,
having no surprise element is not good for jazz along with so little
spontaneous interplay overall.

His Christmas album gets played around here at some point each season,
along with countless other Christmas albums, usually in the background
of a family gathering. But I'm still waiting for him to produce some
music I can listen to more than once and find something new in each
listening.

slot wrote:
> It's not easy being G
>

> By SEAN DALY
> Published October 19, 2006
>
>
> Chomp on this, jazz snobs: Miles Davis was a Kenny G fan.
>
> You read that right. One of the most revered trumpeters in jazz history
> adored one of the most reviled saxophonists. In the '80s, Mr. G even
> opened shows for the famously moody "Prince of Darkness."
>
> "On many occasions, Miles would come into my dressing room and tell me
> what I was doing was great," says the 50-year-old Kenneth Gorelick, who
> tonight headlines the Clearwater Jazz Holiday in Coachman Park. "If
> Miles says I'm doing good, and some critics say I stink, why would I
> listen to them?"
>
> Kenny is defending his art as he cruises through Los Angeles. "When you
> drive in L.A., you have plenty of time to talk," he laughs. For a guy
> who has sold 75-million albums, he's incredibly easy to reach. Mere
> seconds after I sent a message to his Blackberry, he called: "Hey, man,
> let's chat!"
>
> You gotta love the G Man.
>
> Or not.
>
> It has become fashionable to rip and ridicule the Clearwater Jazz
> Holiday for not doing enough to showcase "serious" jazz. But when
> organizers announced that this year's main attraction was Kenny G,
> whose lazy-river soprano sax style is the very definition of "smooth,"
> jazzbos set a new record for vitriol.
>
> Kenny G, the haters cried, is not jazz. He's Mantovani with a perm!
>
> G knows the drill. Great achievement, more jokes. Great achievement,
> more jokes.
>
> He's one of the biggest-selling jazz musicians of all time. He's a
> punch line in Wayne's World 2. He made the Guinness Book of World
> Records in 1997 for longest note recorded on a saxophone (E flat; 45
> minutes, 47 seconds). He has inspired a series of demeaning Kenny G
> one-liners (Kenny G walks into an elevator and shouts, "Wow! This
> rocks!").
>
> "Those comments are meaningless to me," says the star, who grew up in
> Seattle and cut his chops playing with such R&B greats as Barry White.
> "I'm (playing music) from inside my spirit. It has nothing to do with a
> calculated, intellectual decision that says 'I can sell more records if
> I play this way.'
>
> "I'm playing from the heart," he adds. "That's the part that people
> miss."
>
> G has been a polarizing presence since 1981, when he was discovered by
> Arista kingpin Clive Davis. Davis is known for finding vocal talent -
> Whitney Houston, Alicia Keys and Barry Manilow to name a few - but he
> took a chance on signing the instrumentalist. The partnership has been
> very challenging - and extremely profitable.
>
> "I've been with Clive Davis for 25 years," says G, whose breakout
> album, 1986's Duotones, and its ubiquitous hit Songbird, charted high
> on both the jazz and pop charts. "He definitely has a feel for what
> will be well-received."
>
> Davis and G "have butted heads on many occasions," the player adds, but
> their battles almost always pay off. They famously fought over the
> creation of 1994 holiday album Miracles - Davis wanted more vocals,
> fewer tracks; G wanted the opposite; so they compromised - "and that
> became the most successful holiday record of all time. A few more
> holidays, and it will pass the 10-million mark."
>
> A Jewish man with the biggest-selling Christmas album? That's so G:
> great achievement, more jokes.
>
> Ask Kenny about his groupies, and he gives you this earnest answer: "I
> think my groupies are the college and high school saxophone players.
> There's nothing I like to talk about more than technique."
>
> Oh, Kenny.
>
> In an upcoming issue, Golf Digest will name Kenny G one of the greatest
> golfing musicians of all time, a field that includes such legendary
> duffers as Bob Hope, Bing Crosby and Alice Cooper. He's a +1 handicap,
> good enough to do some damage on the PGA tour.
>
> "I've had daydreams about shooting the lowest score in the history of
> golf," G says. "I shot a 49 in my dream."
>
> But whenever he's on the links, all eyes aren't on his swing but rather
> on the long ponytail pulled through his baseball cap. Kenny's bouncy,
> curly hair - a 'do as dubiously beloved as Michael Bolton's old
> receding mullet - should have its own PR agent.
>
> Will Kenny get his locks shorn anytime soon?
>
> "My hair is the way it's been for a long while," he says with a tired
> laugh. "I haven't gotten a haircut."
>
> On Nov. 14, G will release his new album, I'm in the Mood for Love: The
> Most Romantic Melodies of All Time. Some will say the album is
> brilliant; some will say the album is painful. It will sell tons of
> copies; it will inspire tons of jokes.
>
> It's all part of the unbearable lightness of G-ing.
>
> "As an artist you're supposed to do your thing just the way you feel
> it," he says. "I play saxophone the way I play saxophone. The music
> that I play, that's what I feel inside."
>
> http://www.sptimes.com/2006/10/19/Floridian/It_s_not_easy_being_G.shtml

cl...@claymoore.com

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Oct 24, 2006, 11:13:47 AM10/24/06

to

On Oct 24, 3:30 am, "slot" <jazzji...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> c...@claymoore.com wrote:
> > On Oct 23, 6:50 pm, "slot" <jazzji...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > Probably more often than you think. It's just the large number of
> > > intolerant "real jazz" fans make it difficult for someone to admit they
> > > got started with the G-man, or someone you and your ilk consider
> > > equally undeserving of respect.
>
> > You don't know my "ilk," and to guess what I'm about based on this

> > simple post would be a fool's quest.Sure I know your ilk. You think no comes to Kenny Garret through Kenny

> G. You said so yourself. You're too small to imagine it, travel in
> such small circles that you never met anyone who did it, and so in your
> sheltered mind it must not be.

Well, it didn't take long for you to sign up for that quest.

Gerry

unread,

Oct 24, 2006, 11:36:59 AM10/24/06

to

On 2006-10-24 07:24:33 -0700, Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> said:

>> Point taken. What was your meaning. What were the marked similarities?
>
> And also, that I don't see it as being all that far-fetched that Miles,
> at some point, did say he liked KG or KG's stuff.

I think that would be outrageous. But then being outrageous is
something that Miles enjoyed. And is known and substantiated line
regarding Al Hirt, well there go.

In I don't have enough respect for Kenny G to believe unverifiable
accounts. And having it provided in a condulit from a troll means I
never even saw it. Which is the way it should be.

I don't agree that Miles (at his time) and Kenny G (at his time) were
doing pretty much the same thing. Miles was doing what he thought was
ahead of the curve and doing it with the best players available. MIles
wasn't (nor did he ever) directly and intentionally pander to the
audience. Quite the contrary: I think for most of his career he
directly challenged them. Kenny doesn't line up with ANY of these (my)
conclusions.

Maybe for a brief time in the 50's but I can think of no other, did
Miles even sell what could have been thought of (at the time) as
"commercial" jazz. I'm not even sure about that.

Did he ever make any changes to his music with the clear and direct
intent ot expanding his audience, whether for monetary or prestigre
rationale? Yeah, I think he did during the late 60's around Bitches
Brew, but unlike KG, he didn't do it by pandering to the lowest common
demoninator.

Are there similarities? There are. Are they the "same thing". I
don't think so.