And oh yeah...Joe Finn...
Seriously, after reading all the powder-puff reviews of his CD his posting
was amusing.
Joe Finn is a mediocre player with a mediocre harmonic concept, bad time and
sloppy technique.
Does anyone really think he's a good player?
There are a handful of good players in the group but he's not one of them
(though he plays one in the newsgroup)
-GB
Whether you like his playing or not, your post was completely uncalled for.
mark
Russ
Does he play in tune?
I guess his refereces should be from the people that Hire him, rather
than making judements based on a few sound clips.
I've heard of many great players being criticzed as only a Blues
player, or only Bepop player, or Commercial Players when in fact they
could do everything very well., we cannot make those judgements based
on a few soundclips, or even after a whole CD, these can't possible
cover enough territory to judge a player buy. Maybe somebody plays
wonderful classical guitar, but we just don't know about it until we
catch them doing it.
Live and let Live,
Bg
>GB wrote:
>> Joe Finn is a mediocre player with a mediocre harmonic concept, bad time and
>> sloppy technique.
Dom Mimasi and Jimmy Bruno disagree, but what would they know compared
to some shite cowering behind a monitor? Hey! GB! Let's hear your
clips, you incompetent fraud!
-------------------------------------------------------
Is it not strange that sheep's guts should hale
souls out of men's bodies?
Willie 'The Lion' Shakespeare
-------------------------------------------------------
--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
Along with Zucker, Kleinhaut, Bruno, Bornman, Andy Most, Ulf Wakenius,
Charlie Robinson, Van Sant, Five Sharp, Clay Moore, Steve Herberman, Clif
Kuplen, Wamble, and about 30 other guys on this group who I apologize for
not mentioning..
Seriously, dewd, are you smoking crack?
"GB" <g...@gb.net> wrote in message news:11imt1d...@news.supernews.com...
And Finn . . . ? Oh, yeah, it's a piece of cake making a living playing
guitar in the Boston area. There isn't a decent guitar player within a 200
mile radius.
"Chickenhead" <kurtWITHOUTT...@hoNOtmSPAMailTHANKS.com> wrote in
message news:C-CdnZu_HsZeM7be...@comcast.com...
That is no mean feat. That city, state and area of the country is just
loaded with phenomenal players. You've got to badder than bad to make
living out there.
"Nice Dan from UK" <Danieledw...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1126939475.4...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>My point is that whether you like his style or voice or whatever is somewhat
>irrelevant in light of the fact that Finn is making a living as a jazz
>guitarist near Boston, Massachusetts.
>
>That is no mean feat. That city, state and area of the country is just
>loaded with phenomenal players. You've got to badder than bad to make
>living out there.
Yeah - Russell Malone recently remarked in an interview that it's the
guys who don't have anything happening who have the most to say.
Mark R
#####
"pmfan57" <jwra...@aol.com> schreef in bericht
news:1126983916....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Or, it could a guy getting revenge for something.....
+
Johnny Asia, Hippie Guitarist
http://johnnyasia.info
Listen to Spanish Dervish:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=78840&songID=2721724
"I say play your own way. Don't play what the public wants. You play what
you want and let the public pick up on what you're doing even if it does take
them fifteen, twenty years." - Thelonious Monk
It's true that I have a new cd called "String Theory" available and
that a few people who enjoyed the music have said so here.
It's also a fact that I posted a list of players recently. This was
done in the context of a "Guitarists Nobody is Talking About" thread.
Some of these guys are indeed among my favorite players [favorite
people too], but the post didn't say that. What I had actually said was
that they were players deserving
of wider recognition who were also regular contributors to this
newsgroup. Now there may be those that believe people like Rick Stone,
Steve Herberman,
Doug Wamble et. al are undeserving of greater recognition, but I'm not
one of them. The list I posted was taken from a pile of cds in my music
room. It took me all of two minutes to compile.
This somehow constitutes a breach of newsgroup etiquitte, I suppose. Oh
well.
I've posted here thousands of times over several years and it's nice to
have made friends with so many guys that I would not have otherwise
encountered.
And while I appreciate the supportive and amusing comments, I hope
nobody feels like they need to defend me. No defence is neccessary.
An anonymous troll is just that; a nasty, embittered voice howling in
pain, illuminated only by the isolated glare of a monitor's light. They
deserve your pity not your scorn. I don't even want to hear his clips.
He doesn't need any clips and he's entitled to his opinion.
I think Daniel has it right. The troll is in all likelihood a regular
contributor who isn't man enough to reveal his identity. His remarks
say more about him than they do about me, anyway. ........joe
P.S. As far as mediocrity goes; it's true. <g> I've been mediocre
for years!!!! With any luck the new cd will elevate my career from
mediocrity towards actual insignificance!!! Can't wait to see the
other side! 8-)
--
Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net
Jeff Lange
www.JazzSelect.com
"Five Sharp" <d.on...@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:68d73$432c6ae9$3ec32b7e$17...@news.chello.nl...
#####
"Jeff Lange" <Je...@JazzSelect.net> schreef in bericht
news:Z4_We.3289$zN6....@fe10.lga...
Another nameless poster. Anyone can post negative shit under an assumed
name. If you have some balls, post with your real name and email address and
show us where we can buy yours cds.
Gotta love usenet.
--
Experience a revolutionary way to approach the instrument.
Introducing Sheets of Sound for Guitar
"Let the music govern the way you play guitar instead of the guitar
governing the way you play music!"
Check it out at:
http://www.sheetsofsound.net
"GB" <g...@gb.net> wrote in message news:11imt1d...@news.supernews.com...
However, I don't think Joe is naive. Joe is always very specific about who
he admires and why. I think he knew what he was doing when he made that
posting.
Having said that, I'll say I admire Joe for sticking to his guns. I don't
always agree with him but he's a good guy and he genuinely cares about young
players improving which is big in my book.
"Five Sharp" <d.on...@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:68d73$432c6ae9$3ec32b7e$17...@news.chello.nl...
>I agree with Dick on both counts. The posting was uncalled for and Joe
>should have known better.
>
>However, I don't think Joe is naive. Joe is always very specific about who
>he admires and why. I think he knew what he was doing when he made that
>posting.
>
>Having said that, I'll say I admire Joe for sticking to his guns. I don't
>always agree with him but he's a good guy and he genuinely cares about young
>players improving which is big in my book.
He's quite adamant about the impreative of striving for excellence,
and the fact there is no substitute for hard word. Somehow people get
cheesed off by that.
>
>
>"Five Sharp" <d.on...@chello.nl> wrote in message
>news:68d73$432c6ae9$3ec32b7e$17...@news.chello.nl...
>> Maybe, maybe not. And I don't think Joe deserves a post like that. But
>> .... I do think that Joe's list was a silly action in the first place. It
>> was highly subjective, incomplete and therefore totally irrelevant. And it
>> was bound to piss of someone. Joe should have known better.
>>
>> #####
>>
>>
>> "pmfan57" <jwra...@aol.com> schreef in bericht
>> news:1126983916....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>>I also suspect it's someone we've heard from before but now posting
>>> under an alias.
>>>
>>>
>>> daniel_anthony_stea...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> you might be surprised...this sounds more like a (good) player who, for
>>>> some unknown reason, felt so slighted by being left off someone else's
>>>> list of (good) rmmgj players that they lashed out in this kind of silly
>>>> way.That'd be my guess .
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
#####
You say that as if it were a bad thing.
> Does anyone really think he's a good player?
Almost anyone can be a good player, on a good night when you're in the
right mood to listen to what that person has to say. Everyone has their
own message to offer, no matter what their level of technical
accomplishment. Your notion that it's relevant to categorize and
criticize according to an arbitrary set of technical criteria is pretty
useless in my esthetic world. Sometimes I enoy listening to beginners
more than I do established pros.
When I hear a musician I enjoy, I don't even notice his technique. When
I hear a musician whose technique I notice, then I usually don't enjoy
him much.
--
--
>I also suspect it's someone we've heard from before but now posting
>under an alias.
>
The same guy I'm thinking about, maybe.
Hmmmm...."GB".........
>On 17 Sep 2005 12:05:16 -0700, "pmfan57" <jwra...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>I also suspect it's someone we've heard from before but now posting
>>under an alias.
>>
>
>The same guy I'm thinking about, maybe.
>
> Hmmmm...."GB".........
Hmmmmm .... bad time ..........
I dont know what the origial poster's beef with Joe was, and I think he
was rude, but I understand the sentiment. Joe is always deferential and
polite to the high caliber players who post here, i.e. the ones on his
list and some others that didnt make his list. But to the many less
talented (such as me) here who hang out to learn about and dicuss their
favorite topic, his posts always have a condescending undertone. Right
or wrong, I can take being condescended to by someone who has many
things to teach me, but I can't stand being condescended to by someone
who has little to teach me. Joe's many posts about hard work and
striving for excellence are never more than "convential wisdom"
presented as wise utterings. Joe mostly stays absent from technical
discussions, but is quick to tell us how things look from the top (his
many gigs, his family life, his studio experiences, what tracks on his
CDs would help a poster trying to understand the music of so-and-so, the
famous jazz people he's on first name basis with etc).
But I've listen to his clips on his website, and I hear them the same
way as the anonymous poster does. So I've learned to largely tune him
out here. I'm much more interested in what others have to say. I'll
admit that my perception from this NG colors the way I hear his clips.
I suspect that in "real life" Joe is a nice guy, probably someone I'd
enjoy hanging out with: In many ways I guess I'm like him, I'm a family
guy, proud of my kids, I have a strong work ethic, I love music, etc.
but the issue here is USENET persona. I expected that like many who hang
out here, over time he would mellow out, but I've seen nothing of that
sort. A bit more humility and a little less brown nosing from him would
gain my respect, not that he needs or wants it.
Some posts upstream are pretty vicious towards the OP, people are ready
to crucify him. The replies are vicious, whereas the original post was
just rude.
You can listen to my clips and conclude I can't hold his jockstap, and
I'll agree.
Paul Kirk
p k i r k at i n d i a na dot e d u
Joe's many posts about hard work and
>striving for excellence are never more than "convential wisdom"
>presented as wise utterings. >>
Conventional or not, wouldn't "wisdom" necessarily be "wise"?
If his posts contain wisdom, they must also be wise posts.
Are you saying Joe is unwise to give "wisdom" as advice?
Or is it that his presentation of wisdom is done in an unwise manner?
Do you think Joe is just being a wise guy?
Of course, I may be nitpicking here.
Just like about 95% of posts here ;)
--
But that sentence could also be interpreted to mean that the guys who should
be heard aren't getting recognition, i.e., "most to say" musically or
verbally?
"Max Leggett" <hepkatre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:432c6047...@News.sprint.ca...
Just kidding. If I had a cow everytime I didn't make someone's list, I'd be
dairy farmer.
Everyone talks about me, so I wouldn't have been on there anyways.
Since Kleinhaut, Hans Van Leeuwen (sp?), Andy Most, and a bunch of other
heavy cats weren't on there, along with a few other greats around here, I'd
be in good company on or off Joe's list.
I love these occasional undercover Georging things and flame wars. It adds
so much drama to this place.
You go GB! YEEHAW!
"pmfan57" <jwra...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1126989584.7...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
I enjoy this forum a lot. I like the opportunity to share information
and learn things from all of you guys. I like having unpretentious
conversations about jazz guitar.
I enjoy the opportunity to interact with well known, successful
musicians like Joe FInn and others. I think it's a little thrilling
even that Joe might listen to one of my tunes. One time, Jimmy Bruno
listened to a recording I did and he gave me some nice feedback, which
I highly value. Some of you have heard some of my stuff, and said nice
things. I have really enjoyed the great playing of several of you guys
recently too!
Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion; that's what makes human
interaction interesting. There are, however, respectful ways in which
to present that opinion.
I'm sure that Joe can take it; his success is the proof that this
poster GB is wrong. But the rest of us come here to share, nurture and
encourage each other, and to cheer each other on, or, at least, provide
constructive feedback in a meaningful and respectful way.
The troll probably is stirring up controversy to get attention, and is
probably envious of the attention Joe gets for his MUSIC.
It's always a lot more pleasant when we stick to positive conversations
about music and ignore the flame-throwers.
Just my $.02
>No wonder I run my mouth so much.
>
>But that sentence could also be interpreted to mean that the guys who should
>be heard aren't getting recognition, i.e., "most to say" musically or
>verbally?
No - Malone was getting dissed for playing with Krall. More
specifically, he was getting dissed for not playing outside. His
response was that you play the gig. And he said that he had a gig -
the dissers didn't. It sounds like he was dealing with Living Room
Purists. FWIW, if you think Joe Finn's a jerk, that's fine. If you
think I'm a jerk, that's fine, too. I've been thrown out of better
bars than this. But inane comments about someone's musical abilities -
and like you say, Joe's making a living in a tough market - tell us
more about the disser than it does about the dissee.
>
>
>
>"Max Leggett" <hepkatre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:432c6047...@News.sprint.ca...
>> On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 10:26:43 -0700, "Chickenhead"
>> <kurtWITHOUTT...@hoNOtmSPAMailTHANKS.com> wrote:
>>
>> Yeah - Russell Malone recently remarked in an interview that it's the
>> guys who don't have anything happening who have the most to say.
>>
>
>
He is? I thought he was in upstate NY or something. That's probably 4
hours away. In any case I've never heard of him playing in Boston or
seen any of his "gig alerts" that mention it.
But you're right about the Boston music scene, lots of competition to
be had:
http://www.myrootdown.com/calendar.htm
>And some things are better left unsaid.
These are words to live by...especially on usenet.
Tim
http://timberens.com
A Website for Guitarists
Learn something...Have some fun
timb at erinet dot com
I've never heard Joe's music but am looking forward to recieving his
latest CD soon and checking it out. I personally don't think anybody's
music should be attacked- it must mean something to somebody,
somewhere, even if just to the player. I'm in Frank Zappa's camp when
it comes to music critics, both the published and unpublished ones.
(or, am I unconsciously pre-empting potential blasting of my music when
it comes out?)
JCM
I once heard Walter Slezak say this, maybe on the old Jack Paar show
when I was a kid.
'Critics are like eunuchs in a whorehouse.'
And a personal favorite, 'to belittle is to be little'.
Personally I think the minute you start criticizing you stop being a
musician and become a fan, short for 'fanatic' meaning irrational and
illogical. Why my personal taste in players would be of any importance
to anyone not actually riding shotgun on a long trip in my car is
beyond me.
Clif
If you want a good take on the value of critics, have a look at the
Lexicon of Musical Invective, by Slonimsky. Comments on: Beethoven -
"Pages of stupid and hopelessly vulgar music."; Wagner - "... reminds
me of the the old Italian painting of a martyr whose intestines are
slowly unravelling around his feet." There's another, which I can't
find right now, of Rimsky-Korsakov ["a mere orchestrator"] saying,in
effect, that Wagner played too may notes and had sold out for the sake
of popularity.
>
>JCM
I think they really could be useful, as sparring partners, to
hone your boxing skills on.
Yeah. GB could stand for George Benson but I think it's Wynton Marsalis
really, taking a revenge for last few threads about him :)))
--
_________________________________________________
Krzysiek "jazzy" Inglik
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/3/krzysztofinglikmusic.htm
POLISH GUITAR ZONE - http://GuitarZone.org
Bill.
......joe wrote:
> Wow! It's been some time since I've been bitch slapped by a nameless
> troll around here!!
>
> It's true that I have a new cd called "String Theory" available and
> that a few people who enjoyed the music have said so here.
>
> It's also a fact that I posted a list of players recently. This was
> done in the context of a "Guitarists Nobody is Talking About" thread.
> Some of these guys are indeed among my favorite players [favorite
> people too], but the post didn't say that. What I had actually said was
> that they were players deserving
> of wider recognition who were also regular contributors to this
> newsgroup. Now there may be those that believe people like Rick Stone,
> Steve Herberman,
> Doug Wamble et. al are undeserving of greater recognition, but I'm not
> one of them. The list I posted was taken from a pile of cds in my music
> room. It took me all of two minutes to compile.
>
>
> This somehow constitutes a breach of newsgroup etiquitte, I suppose. Oh
> well.
>
> I've posted here thousands of times over several years and it's nice to
> have made friends with so many guys that I would not have otherwise
> encountered.
> And while I appreciate the supportive and amusing comments, I hope
> nobody feels like they need to defend me. No defence is neccessary.
>
>
> An anonymous troll is just that; a nasty, embittered voice howling in
> pain, illuminated only by the isolated glare of a monitor's light. They
> deserve your pity not your scorn. I don't even want to hear his clips.
> He doesn't need any clips and he's entitled to his opinion.
>
>
> I think Daniel has it right. The troll is in all likelihood a regular
> contributor who isn't man enough to reveal his identity. His remarks
> say more about him than they do about me, anyway. ........joe
>
>
> P.S. As far as mediocrity goes; it's true. <g> I've been mediocre
> for years!!!! With any luck the new cd will elevate my career from
> mediocrity towards actual insignificance!!! Can't wait to see the
> other side! 8-)
You OK, Joe!
Steve
>
--
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Joe Pass? Is he alive? :)
Pt
Pt
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From: "GB" <g...@gb.net>
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz
Subject: Joe Finn's list of favorite players:
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 21:41:05 -0400
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Max Leggett wrote:
>
> Wagner - "... reminds
> me of the the old Italian painting of a martyr whose intestines are
> slowly unravelling around his feet."
Me too.
"Wagner's music is better than it sounds."
Edgar Wilson Nye, quoted in Mark Twain's Autobiography, 1924
US humorist (1850 - 1896)
"I haven't heard anything like that since the orphanage burned down"
Mark Twain , when asked what he thought of an opera he'd just
attended.
>He is? I thought he was in upstate NY or something. That's probably 4
>hours away. In any case I've never heard of him playing in Boston or
>seen any of his "gig alerts" that mention it.
This is true. We live upstate. I have played in Boston a half dozen
times over the last three or four years.
These were all corporate or private events not advertised or open to
the public. ......joe
I'm going to politely disagree here.
First, I want people to feel free to post whatever they like here
without fear or favor. I feel like the strength of a group like this is
that it is wide open, unmoderrated and completely free. The original
message in this thread was indeed negativistic and inflammatory but
that's o.k. I wouldn't want the group to engage in any kind of self
censorship or anything else that would tend to cause people not to
convey their true thoughts, feelings etc.
Second, the list I posted that seemed to inspire the original message
in this thread was niether negativistic or inflammatory. I saw it as a
positve thing. If I say I like apples, pears, bananas, oranges and
lemons this should not be constued as an insult to pineapples. I regret
for instance having left Tim Berens name off the list but he knows no
insult was intended. He's a fine player with impecable credentials. His
"Rhapsody in Blue" concept is inspirational.
People here will react very strongly to negative remarks. This thread
is ample evidence of that tendency. Sometimes people will react
strongly to positive remarks too. That's as it should be. I don't
intend to alter my group participation on this basis and I hope no one
else will either.
>However, I don't think Joe is naive. Joe is always very specific about who
>he admires and why.
Thanks, Jack. I try.
>Having said that, I'll say I admire Joe for sticking to his guns. I don't
>always agree with him but he's a good guy and he genuinely cares about young
>players improving which is big in my book.
Thanks again. ...............joe
GB wrote:
>> Joe Finn is a mediocre player with a mediocre harmonic concept, bad time and
>> sloppy technique.
>You say that as if it were a bad thing.
Tom: Thanks for coming to the rescue! 8-)
When it comes to comic relief around here your remarks remain
unsurpassed!!! 8-) .....joe
Good point.
You're absolutely right Joe. I think I was letting GB's posting influence
what I thought you had written. When I went back and read it again, I saw
nothing wrong with your list. Sorry to add fuel to the fire.
(Still diggin' your CD)
Jaz
Upstate New York, Western Mass.? Hell, my dog could make a living playing
jazz guitar there.
In fact any damned fool can make a living playing jazz guitar. Raising a
family on it? Ain't nuthin' to it. Hell, Bruno and Dom Minasi will tell
anyone they're good for $20 and a couple of canole.
So forget it then. Albany? Stockbridge? Old Chatham? Finn, you suck.
;-)
"Tom Walls" <tw...@cornell.edu> wrote in message
news:dgmara$4le$3...@ruby.cit.cornell.edu...
> In article <1127004632.4...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
> a.ko...@computer.org says...
> He plays the Albany area. My friend Chickenhead's geography is a little
"Tip of the day: Never call a tune on the bandstand unless you are ready,
willing and able to play the head and are thoroughly familiar with the
changes. This may seem obvious but it's surprising how often this unwritten
rule gets broken."
Salute :)
>Upstate New York, Western Mass.? Hell, my dog could make a living playing
>jazz guitar there.
>
>In fact any damned fool can make a living playing jazz guitar. Raising a
>family on it? Ain't nuthin' to it. Hell, Bruno and Dom Minasi will tell
>anyone they're good for $20 and a couple of canole.
>
>So forget it then. Albany? Stockbridge? Old Chatham? Finn, you suck.
>;-)
Yeah. Talk about a soft touch. I just looked up the US Census records
for upstate NY, and apparently the average jazz guitarist there makes
$160k per year, based on 2 gigs a week that fall out of the trees. It
goes on to say that their diet consists mainly of beluga caviar and
Moet Chandon, poured by supermodels after their bank accounts. Upstate
NY has more upscale jazz clubs per population than anywhere else in
the known universe, and they all pay triple scale for any sidemen who
can play a two octave C major scale. Further, recording executives
constantly prowl these clubs looking for guitarists for whom they can
write blank cheques. If you can't make it there, man, you can't make
it anywhere. C'mon, Finn - fess up! Get that supermodel off your knee,
park the BMW, and fess up!!!!!!
"Chickenhead" <kurtWITHOUTT...@hoNOtmSPAMailTHANKS.com> wrote in
message news:lsGdnR93j6d...@comcast.com...
Charlie
"GB" <g...@gb.net> wrote in message news:11imt1d...@news.supernews.com...
> Joe Finn,
> Joe Finn,
> Joe Finn,
>
> And oh yeah...Joe Finn...
>
> Seriously, after reading all the powder-puff reviews of his CD his posting
> was amusing.
>
> Joe Finn is a mediocre player with a mediocre harmonic concept, bad time
> and sloppy technique.
>
> Does anyone really think he's a good player?
>
> There are a handful of good players in the group but he's not one of them
> (though he plays one in the newsgroup)
>
> -GB
>