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Archtop from China
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Mr. Maj6th
Feb 17, 2015, 12:25:06 PM2/17/15
to
This may be worth a look for a custom archtop guitar. I emailed them
and they quoted $1000.00 for a fully custom hand carved guitar. I
wonder if they have any connection to Eastman ans Peerless.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yunzhi-handcraft-volin-style-archaizeed-color-hollow-body-arch-top-jazz-guitar/281600810550?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D28808%26meid%3D9fe5d83989bb4bc2a54b3bf8a7aa8217%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D10%26sd%3D271740654275
dunlop212
Feb 17, 2015, 12:37:08 PM2/17/15
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There are a whole bunch of threads about Yunzhi guitars on http://jazzguitar.be
I get the impression that buyers seem to have had good experiences.
I get the impression that buyers seem to have had good experiences.
Gerry
Feb 17, 2015, 2:41:00 PM2/17/15
to
http://tinyurl.com/oplchns
--
Sunday is my new usenet day. All the others are for fun.
thomas
Feb 17, 2015, 3:16:11 PM2/17/15
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Mr. Maj6th
Feb 17, 2015, 3:32:30 PM2/17/15
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On Tue, 17 Feb 2015 09:25:03 -0800, Mr. Maj6th <maj...@roadrunner.com>
wrote:
I have bought guitars from Chinese luthiers, at one point I was
considering importing guitars. My experiences were all good; they
will bend over backwards to satify their customers, at least in my
case they did.
I think that one could have a guitar made with custom, woods,
measurements, scale, headstock and three-piece neck for a grand. Then
when it arrived spend about about $500 dollars with a good luthier to
refine, fine tune, and maybe re-nut the guitar for your playing
comfort
Fifteen hundred dollars isn't bad considering what the costs are here
in the states, and there are many luthiers that inport their bodies,
painted or unpainted, from Asia, (a lot from Aria,) add a pickup and a
headstock face place, and create (but never advertize) the impression
that it is all made here in the states.
I spoke to Lou at Guitars and Jazz a couple years back, he and a large
midwest dealer(Hale) visited China with an eye towards inportation,
they said the craftsmanship was like it was about fifty years age in
the United States. They were both exceptionally impressed. That
wasn't the same company that in my link, but, they all really want our
business here.
Food for thought........
Maj6th
wrote:
considering importing guitars. My experiences were all good; they
will bend over backwards to satify their customers, at least in my
case they did.
I think that one could have a guitar made with custom, woods,
measurements, scale, headstock and three-piece neck for a grand. Then
when it arrived spend about about $500 dollars with a good luthier to
refine, fine tune, and maybe re-nut the guitar for your playing
comfort
Fifteen hundred dollars isn't bad considering what the costs are here
in the states, and there are many luthiers that inport their bodies,
painted or unpainted, from Asia, (a lot from Aria,) add a pickup and a
headstock face place, and create (but never advertize) the impression
that it is all made here in the states.
I spoke to Lou at Guitars and Jazz a couple years back, he and a large
midwest dealer(Hale) visited China with an eye towards inportation,
they said the craftsmanship was like it was about fifty years age in
the United States. They were both exceptionally impressed. That
wasn't the same company that in my link, but, they all really want our
business here.
Food for thought........
Maj6th
Mr. Maj6th
Feb 17, 2015, 3:35:28 PM2/17/15
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Gerry
Feb 17, 2015, 4:14:11 PM2/17/15
to
purusing such lists from Brian Moore and Carvin and it's really handy
to be able to just eyeball list to get an idea of the "dream guitar".
My current guitar has become dicey of late.
Gerry
Feb 17, 2015, 4:17:43 PM2/17/15
to
On 2015-02-17 20:32:27 +0000, Mr. Maj6th said:
> Fifteen hundred dollars isn't bad considering what the costs are here
> in the states, and there are many luthiers that inport their bodies,
> painted or unpainted, from Asia, (a lot from Aria,) add a pickup and a
> headstock face place, and create (but never advertize) the impression
> that it is all made here in the states.
You're killing America!!
> Fifteen hundred dollars isn't bad considering what the costs are here
> in the states, and there are many luthiers that inport their bodies,
> painted or unpainted, from Asia, (a lot from Aria,) add a pickup and a
> headstock face place, and create (but never advertize) the impression
> that it is all made here in the states.
> I spoke to Lou at Guitars and Jazz a couple years back, he and a large
> midwest dealer(Hale) visited China with an eye towards inportation,
> they said the craftsmanship was like it was about fifty years age in
> the United States. They were both exceptionally impressed. That
> wasn't the same company that in my link, but, they all really want our
> business here.
roughly the same? Or with $200 Nationalism tariff included?
thomas
Feb 17, 2015, 4:27:52 PM2/17/15
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Gerry
Feb 17, 2015, 7:44:37 PM2/17/15
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business!
dunlop212
Feb 18, 2015, 10:45:05 AM2/18/15
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Looks like some of the Yunzhi folks have left to form another enterprise ...
http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/guitar-amps-gizmos/39555-announcement-lora-yu-yolanda-team-handmade-guitar-supplier-china.html
http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/guitar-amps-gizmos/39555-announcement-lora-yu-yolanda-team-handmade-guitar-supplier-china.html
CR
Feb 18, 2015, 12:43:44 PM2/18/15
to
"Mr. Maj6th" <maj...@roadrunner.com> wrote in message
news:t3u6eatap12rvmff4...@4ax.com...
record, and its flaunting of international treaties designed to preserve the
ecology and the environment, as well as how the U.S.'s trade deficit
continues to soar (in the end costing you money anyway) due to its inability
to compete with China, have no impact on how some of you perceive the value
of saving a few dollars on a guitar in the short term.
Geez, if money is all it's about, at least buy the Korean made D'Angelicos
or similar for only a couple hundred more. At least S. Korea doesn't make
use of slave labor nor illegal Brazilian rosewood, etc.
In the long term, you will get what you pay for (or reap what you sow
anyway)..
Mr. Maj6th
Feb 18, 2015, 1:12:17 PM2/18/15
to
Philippine, or South East Asian children at Wal-Mart or Target, but
thousands do each day.
We are in a global marketplace, things have changes. Eastman is now
one of the mainstays of guitar manufacturing in the world, and their
sales are tremendous here in the United States. I can't prevent it
and neither can you. But in the mean time I will choose to spend my
monies as wisely as possible (anywhere in the world market) to get the
best instrument I can purchase without selling my first-born.
I honestly wish it was Gibson, but it isn't. Gibson's quality
decreased in proportion to their price increases (boardrooms,
stock-holders, and CEO's have a way of doing this,)
to the point that others in the world market either started
manufacturing for Gibson or started their own musical instrument
industry. I am as dismayed with the situation as much as you seem to
be: "Say it ain't true Joe."
But it is…….
Maj6th
Jonathan
Feb 18, 2015, 1:27:16 PM2/18/15
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Mr. Maj6th
Feb 18, 2015, 1:27:21 PM2/18/15
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I totally in agreement with your illegal Brazilian rose wood issue.
Hagstrom started making composite fingerboards years ago and their
sales didn't reflect "our" shared concern about the South American
forests. Guitarist considered the material sub-standard. As a matter
of fact I know several guitarists who profess to be able to feel the
difference between ebony, rosewood, and/or composite material on the
fingerboard. Myths and symbols do not die easily.
Maj6th
Mr. Maj6th
Feb 18, 2015, 1:38:06 PM2/18/15
to
critics say about mistreated luthiers;
She replied, "they all just full Borogna."
Just saying....
Maj6th
CR
Feb 18, 2015, 3:05:01 PM2/18/15
to
news:fcl9ealfd5tru2lom...@4ax.com...
> But it is...
> Maj6th
>
>
Your points are well taken. I just thought I'd throw an ethical argument
into the thread... :-)
> Maj6th
>
>
Your points are well taken. I just thought I'd throw an ethical argument
into the thread... :-)
CR
Feb 18, 2015, 3:25:45 PM2/18/15
to
"Jonathan" <gosto.d...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:2ded3051-ae9d-4478...@googlegroups.com...
my remark target a specific country, but for the moment, I found this
"According to CNN's online global wage calculator, which uses data from the
International Labor Organization, the average annual salary of a worker in
China's private sector was 28,752 yuan (about $4,755) in 2012, or 38% of the
global average.Jan 24, 2014".
Now, I really can't know how earning $4755 a year, 38% of the GLOBAL average
(not the U.S. average), impacts upon the life of a Chinese worker. Maybe if
costs to them are 67% cheaper than the rest of the world, they make a living
wage. Perhaps you can spend a year working there and report back on how it
feels to live that life?
There's a REASON why the Eastman (or other Chinese) guitars are so cheap for
their quality. How DO you think that works???
But part of the issue is that China doesn't recognize the CITES treaty and
trades in endangered species such as Brazilian rosewood, elephant tusk
ivory, and a bunch of other things I can't list off the top of my head.
I just returned from a trip to South Africa, a safari. The preserve rangers
talked about the poaching problem they're confronted with by Chinese
poachers. They weren't happy about it. Talk to them. Perhaps you'll gain a
new perspective.
Look, this is all political-agenda stuff. If you have no interest in how
that works, or in how that impacts upon you in the short AND the long run,
and your personal concern is that you can save a few hundred bucks on your
guitar in this second, then by all means, save your few dollars now and be
happy. In the cycle of that larger "global economy", you're paying for it in
other ways, but you're right, you can't change it by yourself, so don't
bother to try or to protest.
Meantime, while I'm talking big, I just found out that I should consider
throwing out my iPhone and iPad because I just found out that they rely on
low-waged Chinese workers, that they have been accused of abuses to them,
and that they still charge $800 for a retail-priced iPhone. So who am I to
talk? ;-)
CR
Feb 18, 2015, 3:40:26 PM2/18/15
to
news:qbm9eati4ovb1angb...@4ax.com...
Yes, I understand. But for example "Amazon rosewood" is not endangered and
is very close in characteristic to Brazilian. Ebony has been a prized choice
for fretboards forever and that's not endangered as far as I know. Builders
like Sadowsky for one, offer all of these as fretboard choices, at varying
degrees of expense.
Of course, companies like Martin probably have had setbacks because their
premium BODY wood has always been Brazilian (though many D-sized owners seem
to prefer good ol' mahogany for their guitar bodies).
But your point is well-taken: guitarists mythology is hard to transcend.
By the way, for me, my position regarding China is not a one-dimensional
one. It is a multi-dimensional concern based on a combination of their
apparent disregard of these endangered species, the reportedly poor
treatment of their workers, and their lack of concern of their use of fossil
fuel use and its effects on the ecology.
Here are some relative figures of coal-burning:
http://www.climatecentral.org/blogs/chinas-growing-coal-use-is-worlds-growing-problem-16999
is very close in characteristic to Brazilian. Ebony has been a prized choice
for fretboards forever and that's not endangered as far as I know. Builders
like Sadowsky for one, offer all of these as fretboard choices, at varying
degrees of expense.
Of course, companies like Martin probably have had setbacks because their
premium BODY wood has always been Brazilian (though many D-sized owners seem
to prefer good ol' mahogany for their guitar bodies).
But your point is well-taken: guitarists mythology is hard to transcend.
By the way, for me, my position regarding China is not a one-dimensional
one. It is a multi-dimensional concern based on a combination of their
apparent disregard of these endangered species, the reportedly poor
treatment of their workers, and their lack of concern of their use of fossil
fuel use and its effects on the ecology.
Here are some relative figures of coal-burning:
http://www.climatecentral.org/blogs/chinas-growing-coal-use-is-worlds-growing-problem-16999
Mr. Maj6th
Feb 18, 2015, 3:57:36 PM2/18/15
to
I most certainly have been (many times) in the past, he imports his
guitar bodies from Asia.
Maj6th
van
Feb 18, 2015, 4:54:03 PM2/18/15
to
Actually, they're mass produced like any other company. i don't know where they're built.
thomas
Feb 18, 2015, 5:53:12 PM2/18/15
to
On Wednesday, February 18, 2015 at 1:12:17 PM UTC-5, Maj6th wrote:
>
> I honestly wish it was Gibson, but it isn't.
* Gibson is notorious for mistreating its own employees, and has very high turnover in what would be considered plum jobs.
>
> I honestly wish it was Gibson, but it isn't.
* Gibson has admitted to breaking the law by knowingly purchasing wood that was poached from a national park in Madagascar and smuggled into the US by LMI.
* Gibson was sanctioned by the feds for importing kit guitars from Japan and falsely labeling them as made in the US.
* Gibson is "doing business with" (i.e., bribing) a kleptocratic dictator in Fiji, where many of Gibson's mahogany bodies and necks are made.
When it comes to ethics, Gibson is one of the very worst companies in the music business, and should never be considered morally superior to Chinese products.
thomas
Feb 18, 2015, 5:56:35 PM2/18/15
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Tim McNamara
Feb 18, 2015, 6:34:21 PM2/18/15
to
>> Sadowsky tries to give the impression that his jazz guitars are
>> handmade by him. Actually, they're mass produced like any other
>> company. i don't know where they're built.
>
> Sadowsky's archtops were made in Japan last time I checked.
By Aria, I believe. Same company that builds "D'Aquisto" guitars, if
>> handmade by him. Actually, they're mass produced like any other
>> company. i don't know where they're built.
>
> Sadowsky's archtops were made in Japan last time I checked.
what I have read is correct. ISTR that Aria built a Herb Ellis-endorsed
guitar that was well-regarded.
Steven Bornfeld
Feb 18, 2015, 7:29:11 PM2/18/15
to
On 2/18/2015 3:40 PM, CR wrote:
>>
>>
> Yes, I understand. But for example "Amazon rosewood" is not endangered and
> is very close in characteristic to Brazilian. Ebony has been a prized choice
> for fretboards forever and that's not endangered as far as I know. Builders
> like Sadowsky for one, offer all of these as fretboard choices, at varying
> degrees of expense.
>
> Of course, companies like Martin probably have had setbacks because their
> premium BODY wood has always been Brazilian (though many D-sized owners seem
> to prefer good ol' mahogany for their guitar bodies).
>
> But your point is well-taken: guitarists mythology is hard to transcend.
>
> By the way, for me, my position regarding China is not a one-dimensional
> one. It is a multi-dimensional concern based on a combination of their
> apparent disregard of these endangered species, the reportedly poor
> treatment of their workers, and their lack of concern of their use of fossil
> fuel use and its effects on the ecology.
>
> Here are some relative figures of coal-burning:
> http://www.climatecentral.org/blogs/chinas-growing-coal-use-is-worlds-growing-problem-16999
>
>
>
I'm not sure what species you refer to when you mention "Amazon
>>
>>
> Yes, I understand. But for example "Amazon rosewood" is not endangered and
> is very close in characteristic to Brazilian. Ebony has been a prized choice
> for fretboards forever and that's not endangered as far as I know. Builders
> like Sadowsky for one, offer all of these as fretboard choices, at varying
> degrees of expense.
>
> Of course, companies like Martin probably have had setbacks because their
> premium BODY wood has always been Brazilian (though many D-sized owners seem
> to prefer good ol' mahogany for their guitar bodies).
>
> But your point is well-taken: guitarists mythology is hard to transcend.
>
> By the way, for me, my position regarding China is not a one-dimensional
> one. It is a multi-dimensional concern based on a combination of their
> apparent disregard of these endangered species, the reportedly poor
> treatment of their workers, and their lack of concern of their use of fossil
> fuel use and its effects on the ecology.
>
> Here are some relative figures of coal-burning:
> http://www.climatecentral.org/blogs/chinas-growing-coal-use-is-worlds-growing-problem-16999
>
>
>
rosewood". Many species of rosewood, ebony, other hardwoods, and even
some softwood species are on the CITES list. The list changes over time
too:
http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/restricted-and-endangered-wood-species/
Steve
David J. Littleboy
Feb 18, 2015, 7:33:37 PM2/18/15
to
"thomas" wrote:
>>
>> Sadowsky tries to give the impression that his jazz guitars are handmade
>> by him.
>> Actually, they're mass produced like any other company. i don't know
>> where they're built.>
>
>Sadowsky's archtops were made in Japan last time I checked.
That's my understanding as well. Here, they're reverse imported. The Jim
>>
>> Sadowsky tries to give the impression that his jazz guitars are handmade
>> by him.
>> Actually, they're mass produced like any other company. i don't know
>> where they're built.>
>
>Sadowsky's archtops were made in Japan last time I checked.
Hall model is sold here (with a different headstock) at a reasonable price.
http://www.walkin.co.jp/guitars/129392.htm
But the Sadaowski branded ones are pricey. (The "TEL" line means "call if
you want to know the price", which really means "if you have to ask you
can't afford it".)
http://www.walkin.co.jp/guitars/129341.htm
I hate the color on these guitars: the sunburst is too orange and the blonde
is too platinum. Sigh. I should shut up and buy this one (pressed laminate
spruce top, not carved, sigh again, but half the price of a Sadowski),
although Sadowski doesn't have his version of this one. (I like all the
details: floater, pick guard doesn't cover f-hole, strap pin placement,etc.
etc. etc.))
http://www.walkin.co.jp/guitars/129244.htm
--
David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
CR
Mar 13, 2015, 8:56:39 PM3/13/15
to
news:r4v9eat07n2iabb9c...@4ax.com...
Saying "Asia" is a little misleading. The actual country is Japan. I don't
think we can hold Japan to the same standard that we should hold China to.
They're both in Asia, but they are not even close to being the same. Those
guitars also get a lot of attention and finishing work in the NYC shop
In addition, I believe that his non-archtop guitars (basses and NYC guitars
for example) are completely built in his NYC shop. One person suggested to
me that he buys the parts (ie. bodies, necks, etc) and puts them together.
But I know that the finishing work is done in his shop, for whatever that's
worth to anybody.
Anyway, a little OT, and just for clarification's sake.
think we can hold Japan to the same standard that we should hold China to.
They're both in Asia, but they are not even close to being the same. Those
guitars also get a lot of attention and finishing work in the NYC shop
In addition, I believe that his non-archtop guitars (basses and NYC guitars
for example) are completely built in his NYC shop. One person suggested to
me that he buys the parts (ie. bodies, necks, etc) and puts them together.
But I know that the finishing work is done in his shop, for whatever that's
worth to anybody.
Anyway, a little OT, and just for clarification's sake.
CR
Mar 13, 2015, 9:03:12 PM3/13/15
to
"Steven Bornfeld" <dentalt...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:mc3aok$u4o$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
that if you take a look at Sadowsky's specs on his NYC guitars, he offers 3
types of fretboards: Brazilian rosewood, Amazon rosewood, and Ebony. He
makes it clear that the Brazilian ones cannot be shipped out of the country.
He makes no such assertion about the Amazon ones. I don't really know. You'd
have to ask him.
I did find this for you (and others)
http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/amazon-rosewood/
It does make reference to Brazilian but makes it clear that they are not the
same.
David J. Littleboy
Mar 13, 2015, 10:38:15 PM3/13/15
to
"CR" wrote"
Martin still does). It's up there with ivory as something anyone with half a
brain would simply not consider bothering with.
The ridiculous thing is that there are a zillion different types of
non-endangered woods (and other materials), many of which are exquisitely
beautiful in their own right. There are ebony variants that instead of
ebony's pure jet black, have streaks of lighter coloration. Instead of
nature imitating plastic, each piece has its own character and beauty.
Martin has gone full tilt with this with the SWOMGT, which uses cherry
instead of mahogany. (Interesting that cherry is a sustainable wood. We did
our floors here in cherry, and the lumber was smack dab in the middle of the
price range for the most commonly used flooring woods.) I'd love to at least
try one of these, but I haven't found one in a store in Tokyo yet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oA4v7dozNd8
>I did find this for you (and others)
>http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/amazon-rosewood/
Interesting: it's denser than water. Very few woods are denser than water.
Most are in the range 1/4 to 1/2 the density of water. Steel on the other
hand is 6.8 times denser than water, making many woods stronger than steel
_per unit weight_.
>"Steven Bornfeld" <dentalt...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> I'm not sure what species you refer to when you mention "Amazon
>> rosewood". Many species of rosewood, ebony, other hardwoods, and even
>> some softwood species are on the CITES list. The list changes over time
>> too:
>>
>> http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/restricted-and-endangered-wood-species/
>>
>> Steve
>>
>This is a little beyond my level of understanding Steve. All I can say is
>that if you take a look at Sadowsky's specs on his NYC guitars, he offers 3
>types of fretboards: Brazilian rosewood, Amazon rosewood, and Ebony. He
>makes it clear that the Brazilian ones cannot be shipped out of the
>country. He makes no such assertion about the Amazon ones. I don't really
>know. You'd have to ask him.
I'm always surprised when a guitar maker advertises Brazilian rosewood (as
>> I'm not sure what species you refer to when you mention "Amazon
>> rosewood". Many species of rosewood, ebony, other hardwoods, and even
>> some softwood species are on the CITES list. The list changes over time
>> too:
>>
>> http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/restricted-and-endangered-wood-species/
>>
>> Steve
>>
>This is a little beyond my level of understanding Steve. All I can say is
>that if you take a look at Sadowsky's specs on his NYC guitars, he offers 3
>types of fretboards: Brazilian rosewood, Amazon rosewood, and Ebony. He
>makes it clear that the Brazilian ones cannot be shipped out of the
>country. He makes no such assertion about the Amazon ones. I don't really
>know. You'd have to ask him.
Martin still does). It's up there with ivory as something anyone with half a
brain would simply not consider bothering with.
The ridiculous thing is that there are a zillion different types of
non-endangered woods (and other materials), many of which are exquisitely
beautiful in their own right. There are ebony variants that instead of
ebony's pure jet black, have streaks of lighter coloration. Instead of
nature imitating plastic, each piece has its own character and beauty.
Martin has gone full tilt with this with the SWOMGT, which uses cherry
instead of mahogany. (Interesting that cherry is a sustainable wood. We did
our floors here in cherry, and the lumber was smack dab in the middle of the
price range for the most commonly used flooring woods.) I'd love to at least
try one of these, but I haven't found one in a store in Tokyo yet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oA4v7dozNd8
>I did find this for you (and others)
>http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/amazon-rosewood/
Most are in the range 1/4 to 1/2 the density of water. Steel on the other
hand is 6.8 times denser than water, making many woods stronger than steel
_per unit weight_.
thomas
Mar 13, 2015, 11:01:30 PM3/13/15
to
thomas
Mar 13, 2015, 11:06:47 PM3/13/15
to
On Friday, March 13, 2015 at 10:38:15 PM UTC-4, David J. Littleboy wrote:
>
> I'm always surprised when a guitar maker advertises Brazilian rosewood (as
> Martin still does). It's up there with ivory as something anyone with half a
> brain would simply not consider bothering with.
Martin also advertises Madagascarian rosewood. The current available stock of which has been poached from a national park and smuggled across several borders. It's incredibly irresponsible to use this wood, and the folks at Martin definitely know better. They saw Gibson sign a criminal enforcement agreement with the feds for participating in a smuggling chain of poached wood from Madagascar.
>
> I'm always surprised when a guitar maker advertises Brazilian rosewood (as
> Martin still does). It's up there with ivory as something anyone with half a
> brain would simply not consider bothering with.
David J. Littleboy
Mar 14, 2015, 12:29:38 AM3/14/15
to
have (drum roll) the D-35 Brazilian 50th Anniversary. For only US$7,000 you
can have not one, but two, flavors of endangered rosewood in your guitar.
Sheesh.
https://www.martinguitar.com/new/item/3765-d-35-brazilian-50th-anniversary.html?Itemid=6
Gerry
Mar 14, 2015, 1:59:07 AM3/14/15
to
On 2015-03-14 03:01:27 +0000, thomas said:
>> I did find this for you (and others)
>> http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/amazon-rosewood/
>>
>> It does make reference to Brazilian but makes it clear that they are not the
>> same.
>
> I thought the Amazon was in Brazil? But then again, I'm not a
> professional luthier....
I think the river starts in Peru, but many of it's feeders, which may
>> I did find this for you (and others)
>> http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/amazon-rosewood/
>>
>> It does make reference to Brazilian but makes it clear that they are not the
>> same.
>
> I thought the Amazon was in Brazil? But then again, I'm not a
> professional luthier....
or may not be in the "Amazon rainforest", are in columbia and Ecador, I
believe.
Anyway, to say it's ambiguous is being overly kind.
Tim McNamara
Mar 14, 2015, 4:30:39 PM3/14/15
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On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 11:38:09 +0900, David J. Littleboy <dav...@gol.com>
wrote:
guitar buying public has very fixed notions about tonewoods, beliefs
that are frequently without any merit whatsoever.
Acoustic guitar players think that the prewar Martin dreadnought is the
ne plus ultra of acoustic guitars. They want them made from the exact
same woods, to the exact same dimensions with the exact same techniques.
Archtop guitar players think that 40s Gibsons (for acoustic) and 50s
Gibsons (for electric) are it and everything else is just an
approximation. Les Pauls? 1959. Strats? Up to the CBS era. Teles?
1952. Never mind that the really great guitars of those eras were
actualy rare then, too, and most were average at best.
Rose colored glasses are powerful marketing tools.
> Martin has gone full tilt with this with the SWOMGT, which uses cherry
> instead of mahogany. (Interesting that cherry is a sustainable wood.
> We did our floors here in cherry, and the lumber was smack dab in the
> middle of the price range for the most commonly used flooring woods.)
> I'd love to at least try one of these, but I haven't found one in a
> store in Tokyo yet.
Godin uses cherry IIRC.
wrote:
>
> I'm always surprised when a guitar maker advertises Brazilian rosewood
> (as Martin still does). It's up there with ivory as something anyone
> with half a brain would simply not consider bothering with.
>
> The ridiculous thing is that there are a zillion different types of
> non-endangered woods (and other materials), many of which are
> exquisitely beautiful in their own right. There are ebony variants
> that instead of ebony's pure jet black, have streaks of lighter
> coloration. Instead of nature imitating plastic, each piece has its
> own character and beauty.
Won't sell, at least not without a lot of customer education. The
> I'm always surprised when a guitar maker advertises Brazilian rosewood
> (as Martin still does). It's up there with ivory as something anyone
> with half a brain would simply not consider bothering with.
>
> The ridiculous thing is that there are a zillion different types of
> non-endangered woods (and other materials), many of which are
> exquisitely beautiful in their own right. There are ebony variants
> that instead of ebony's pure jet black, have streaks of lighter
> coloration. Instead of nature imitating plastic, each piece has its
> own character and beauty.
guitar buying public has very fixed notions about tonewoods, beliefs
that are frequently without any merit whatsoever.
Acoustic guitar players think that the prewar Martin dreadnought is the
ne plus ultra of acoustic guitars. They want them made from the exact
same woods, to the exact same dimensions with the exact same techniques.
Archtop guitar players think that 40s Gibsons (for acoustic) and 50s
Gibsons (for electric) are it and everything else is just an
approximation. Les Pauls? 1959. Strats? Up to the CBS era. Teles?
1952. Never mind that the really great guitars of those eras were
actualy rare then, too, and most were average at best.
Rose colored glasses are powerful marketing tools.
> Martin has gone full tilt with this with the SWOMGT, which uses cherry
> instead of mahogany. (Interesting that cherry is a sustainable wood.
> We did our floors here in cherry, and the lumber was smack dab in the
> middle of the price range for the most commonly used flooring woods.)
> I'd love to at least try one of these, but I haven't found one in a
> store in Tokyo yet.
clevelandjazz
Mar 15, 2015, 7:18:35 PM3/15/15
to
people are people. Jazz guitarists still want the '60s joe pass sounds so why is it any worse for people to want guitars that sound like the old martin guitars? Sure you can make a guitar from different materials but it'll sound different too. People say they know what they like but they really like what they know.
David J. Littleboy
Mar 15, 2015, 11:07:51 PM3/15/15
to
"clevelandjazz" wrote in message
news:20b74777-ac16-4af3...@googlegroups.com...
Because the only part of a guitar that's of anything other than trivial
acoustical significance is the top. The rest is mechanical support for the
top and simply doesn't matter once basic mechanical requirements are met.
Even on electrics, people who worry about the sound of the fingerboard
material are simply deranged.
The shape, material, thickness, and bracing pattern on the top are serious
big deals. The back, sides, and fingerboard simply aren't. But good spruce
is cheap and in abundant supply.
news:20b74777-ac16-4af3...@googlegroups.com...
acoustical significance is the top. The rest is mechanical support for the
top and simply doesn't matter once basic mechanical requirements are met.
Even on electrics, people who worry about the sound of the fingerboard
material are simply deranged.
The shape, material, thickness, and bracing pattern on the top are serious
big deals. The back, sides, and fingerboard simply aren't. But good spruce
is cheap and in abundant supply.
Tim McNamara
Mar 16, 2015, 12:09:44 AM3/16/15
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instruments were made with are no longer sustainable or, in some cases,
even available.
Bill Godwin
Mar 16, 2015, 1:24:07 AM3/16/15
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On Sunday, March 15, 2015 at 7:18:35 PM UTC-4, clevelandjazz wrote:
> people are people. Jazz guitarists still want the '60s joe pass sounds so why is it any worse for people to want guitars that sound like the old martin guitars? Sure you can make a guitar from different materials but it'll sound different too. People say they know what they like but they really like what they know.
I owned a 1971 D-35. Interestingly that was a "transition year" where Martin started using other rosewood besides Brazilian on the back. Mine had Brazilian in the the center piece of the 3 piece back.
> people are people. Jazz guitarists still want the '60s joe pass sounds so why is it any worse for people to want guitars that sound like the old martin guitars? Sure you can make a guitar from different materials but it'll sound different too. People say they know what they like but they really like what they know.
Before I sold it, I had an opportunity to A/B it against a D-28 built a few years earlier which was only Brazilian rosewood. It was AMAZING how much better the Brazilian rosewood guitar sounded. But I wouldn't pay upwards of 5K to get one!
Arthur Quinn
Mar 16, 2015, 5:22:57 AM3/16/15
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detailed thicknessing of the plates to the particular pieces of wood
being used. None of the factory makers do that. Instead, they
concentrate on accuracy of cutting to standard dimensions for ease of
assembly.
The logical outcome of this is that the ultimate tonal quality of a
factory made guitar is a matter of luck. If the standardised dimensions
agree with the pieces of wood used, then you get the finest sounding
guitar. Otherwise, a good but not great instrument.
Arthur
--
Arthur Quinn
real-email arthur at bellacat dot com
Steven Bornfeld
Mar 16, 2015, 12:30:50 PM3/16/15
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On 3/16/2015 1:24 AM, Bill Godwin wrote:at sound like the old martin
Martin started really ramping up production. The cliche is that Martins
from that era were to be avoided. They eventually got their act back
together.
I do think that getting a great factory-made guitar is hit-and-miss
(even more so for Gibsons IMO).
My brother still has a 1977 D35. The sound is OK. His (and my
understanding is that this was true for all of them) developed a top
crack between the pickguard and the bridge.
Steve
guitars? Sure you can make a guitar from different materials but it'll
sound different too. People say they know what they like but they really
like what they know.
>
> I owned a 1971 D-35. Interestingly that was a "transition year" where Martin started using other rosewood
besides Brazilian on the back. Mine had Brazilian in the the center
piece of the 3 piece back.
>
> Before I sold it, I had an opportunity to A/B it against a D-28 built a few years earlier which was only
Brazilian rosewood. It was AMAZING how much better the Brazilian
rosewood guitar sounded. But I wouldn't
pay upwards of 5K to get one!
>
>
>
Don't know exactly when, but the '70s in general was the decade that
sound different too. People say they know what they like but they really
like what they know.
>
> I owned a 1971 D-35. Interestingly that was a "transition year" where Martin started using other rosewood
besides Brazilian on the back. Mine had Brazilian in the the center
piece of the 3 piece back.
>
> Before I sold it, I had an opportunity to A/B it against a D-28 built a few years earlier which was only
Brazilian rosewood. It was AMAZING how much better the Brazilian
rosewood guitar sounded. But I wouldn't
pay upwards of 5K to get one!
>
>
>
Martin started really ramping up production. The cliche is that Martins
from that era were to be avoided. They eventually got their act back
together.
I do think that getting a great factory-made guitar is hit-and-miss
(even more so for Gibsons IMO).
My brother still has a 1977 D35. The sound is OK. His (and my
understanding is that this was true for all of them) developed a top
crack between the pickguard and the bridge.
Steve
thomas
Mar 16, 2015, 1:32:18 PM3/16/15
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On Sunday, March 15, 2015 at 11:07:51 PM UTC-4, David J. Littleboy wrote:
>
> But good spruce
> is cheap and in abundant supply.
Some spruces are endangered. A lot of it is now being poached in Russia, Siberia especially. It's cheap because it's illegal.
>
> But good spruce
> is cheap and in abundant supply.
Bill Godwin
Mar 16, 2015, 2:02:48 PM3/16/15
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> Don't know exactly when, but the '70s in general was the decade that
> Martin started really ramping up production. The cliche is that Martins
> from that era were to be avoided. They eventually got their act back
> together.
John A
Mar 16, 2015, 2:22:10 PM3/16/15
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John
Bill Godwin
Mar 16, 2015, 4:07:49 PM3/16/15
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I would be curious to know if you have A/B a D-35 with a D-28 and heard a difference? : )
Bill
Steven Bornfeld
Mar 16, 2015, 5:29:17 PM3/16/15
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On 3/16/2015 2:02 PM, Bill Godwin wrote:
>
> My go-to repair guy installed a new bridge on it because, as he put it, Martin put them in the wrong
place. So the intonation improved tremendously but not enough for me
to play my taylor less. so out it went .
>
Ah, Taylor...how the late Stan Jay would rant about the finger joint at
>
> My go-to repair guy installed a new bridge on it because, as he put it, Martin put them in the wrong
place. So the intonation improved tremendously but not enough for me
to play my taylor less. so out it went .
>
the headstock...
I have a Big Baby in the office. It's a nice no-frills flat top.
Steve
Bill Godwin
Mar 16, 2015, 6:45:41 PM3/16/15
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I don't like the look of the finger joint either.
I do like the playability and especially the intonation.
John A
Mar 20, 2015, 5:11:11 PM3/20/15
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John
clevelandjazz
Mar 22, 2015, 6:48:43 AM3/22/15
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On Sunday, March 15, 2015 at 11:07:51 PM UTC-4, David J. Littleboy wrote:
> The shape, material, thickness, and bracing pattern on the top are serious
> big deals. The back, sides, and fingerboard simply aren't. But good spruce
> is cheap and in abundant supply.
not according to what I've read.
> big deals. The back, sides, and fingerboard simply aren't. But good spruce
> is cheap and in abundant supply.
http://www.guitarplayer.com/miscellaneous/1139/the-troublesome-truth-about-sitka-spruce/14808
David J. Littleboy
Mar 22, 2015, 8:36:30 AM3/22/15
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"clevelandjazz" wrote in message
news:ee5fe480-75b5-475a...@googlegroups.com...
That sounds like cheap and plentiful to me: the guitar industry uses a tiny
fraction of the Sitka spruce produced, and can purchase many times what it
needs for cheap until the old growth forests runs out.
But I don't buy the old growth forest running out horror story.
Partly because people are doing something about it for other reasons.
http://alaskaconservation.org/conservation-issues/tongass-rainforest/updates-field/forest-service-shifts-oldgrowth-logging/
And partly because the whole US guitar industry uses one day of one
sawmill's lumber per year. So the area handled by one sawmill is a 360-year
sustainable guitar wood production area.
Will Martin and Gibson and Taylor figure out a way to allocate a tiny
fraction of old growth forests to instrument making, or will they commit
collective suicide? It'll be fun to watch.
Numbers: The grain lines on my 16" Holst are about 1 mm wide, the wood used
was probably about 25 cm wide (1/2 width is somewhat less than 22 cm) , so
that's 250 years of growth. Oops. New growth wood won't be making archtops
for a long long time. (Although the drool-inducing Andersen at archtop.com
has much wider grain than my Holst.)
Dunno what the wood was, but we renovated a woodframe house last year, and
one of the blokes from the earthquake reinforcing contractor told me that
our regular contractors were using an amazing amount of amazing quality
wood. Japan replanted their forests with cypress (sugi, Cryptomeria,
actually) after the war. It grows like crazy and produces humongous volumes
of sugi pollen, which is a horrific allergen, driving the Japanese quite
crazy this time of year. So presumably, and hopefully, it was sugi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptomeria
news:ee5fe480-75b5-475a...@googlegroups.com...
fraction of the Sitka spruce produced, and can purchase many times what it
needs for cheap until the old growth forests runs out.
But I don't buy the old growth forest running out horror story.
Partly because people are doing something about it for other reasons.
http://alaskaconservation.org/conservation-issues/tongass-rainforest/updates-field/forest-service-shifts-oldgrowth-logging/
And partly because the whole US guitar industry uses one day of one
sawmill's lumber per year. So the area handled by one sawmill is a 360-year
sustainable guitar wood production area.
Will Martin and Gibson and Taylor figure out a way to allocate a tiny
fraction of old growth forests to instrument making, or will they commit
collective suicide? It'll be fun to watch.
Numbers: The grain lines on my 16" Holst are about 1 mm wide, the wood used
was probably about 25 cm wide (1/2 width is somewhat less than 22 cm) , so
that's 250 years of growth. Oops. New growth wood won't be making archtops
for a long long time. (Although the drool-inducing Andersen at archtop.com
has much wider grain than my Holst.)
Dunno what the wood was, but we renovated a woodframe house last year, and
one of the blokes from the earthquake reinforcing contractor told me that
our regular contractors were using an amazing amount of amazing quality
wood. Japan replanted their forests with cypress (sugi, Cryptomeria,
actually) after the war. It grows like crazy and produces humongous volumes
of sugi pollen, which is a horrific allergen, driving the Japanese quite
crazy this time of year. So presumably, and hopefully, it was sugi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptomeria
JNugent
Apr 2, 2015, 4:02:06 PM4/2/15
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self-destructive over this, given that its guitar industry has been the
world's finest for a hundred years or more?
What is so terrible about (small amounts of) a renewable resource
finding its way into the materials used in a relatively small number of
high-end, largely hand-made, American guitars of world-leading quality,
whether constructed in PA, TN or MT?
thomas
Apr 2, 2015, 10:03:42 PM4/2/15
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It's true that guitar manufacturers are responsible for only a small part of deforestation, relative to other manufacturing sectors. But I don't see how that in any way excuses Gibson's criminal acts in violation of US and international laws that outlaw smuggling poached wood from national parks.
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