Learning how to Perfect Pitch Products
Scott Kiddle
developing perfect pitch? There's the "Perfect Pitch Ear Training
SuperCourse" by David Lucas Burge, and also "Absolute Pitch Power" by Graham
English. The latter admits to using hypnosis as a training aid.
Thanks....
IvanDRodriguez
I dont know about the second title, but don't waste your money on the
PPET...... that's JMO......
Ivan
Pat Smith
don't waste your money. Burge spends like 5 CDs just telling you how
easy it is before he tells you the big secret...just listen and hear the
difference between the notes...it's like colors except it's not
colors...yeesh. Ok, so it seemed like a good idea at the time
IvanDRodriguez
Is there an echo in here? LOL
Ivan
Jurupari
>colors...yeesh.
Learning how to Perfect Pitch Products
use a two handed grip?
jim_kaznosky(jk852@columbianotspam.edu
that I'm glad I did not pay for this.
Dave
about four months I could tell F# from Eb pretty consistently - on ONE
piano. But yeah, it seemed like a good idea. And there used to be a bunch of
teachers that supposedly endorsed it, although you don't hear much about
THEM any more.
Now, if I'd spent that time actually practicing ...
Max Leggett
accurate aural reference points and I can check tones against those
points if I want. For instance, if I start scatting some uppish blues
it's invariably in G. Now, that may not be G one tone below A440. I
might be out 5-10, but it's close enough for jazz. I also have a
reference point based on the highest note I can sing without
straining. That seems to be F#, give or take. I suppose if I worked at
it I could be more positive about pitches and learn to identify them,
although if the day comes that I can't hear a b5 I'll quit playing,
but I can't be bothered. I don't think perfect pitch is important.
Relative pitch, yes. You need to be able to hear a maj6 [first 2 notes
of My Way] a min9, a b5. But whether it's a b5 against C or a b5
against Eb doesn't much matter. But if a car backfires I just say
"C#". No one has ever yet been able to gainsay me. So, when in doubt,
bullshit. Leave the science to someone who doesn't need the practice
time.
On Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:17:18 -0400, "Dave" <da...@nospamthanks.com>
wrote:
Greg clayton
we shouldn't notice the different colors of the various keys etc but if you
are born with perfect pitch , great!! but for most of us good relative
pitch will do the job. Joe Pass used to stress listening to those you
are playing with and listening closely to oneself too.
40 years of playing have proved this out for me too.
cheers
Greg C
--
....................................................................
visit www.GregClayton.com the website of Jazz Guitarist Greg Clayton
"Max Leggett" <mleg...@nospam.ca> wrote in message
news:3ea8116b....@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
David Kotschessa
Guilty as well. I bought them years ago when they started to come
down in price. The guy, with the voice of a sexually repressed
elementray school guidance counseler, probably talking through a hand
puppet, goes on for hours and hours, reitering the same damn thing
over and over again. He repeats, most emphatically, that the tapes
themselves do nothing for perfect pitch. You have to get with another
person, every single day of your life until you get this right, and
must use live instruments to begin to recognize the "tone colors."
I'll give you the whole drill in 30 words or more. You get with
somebody, and you start with Eb, and F#. Eb is a very warm, mellow
sound, and F# is by contrast, very "twangy." These are the most
identifiable tones. You start by learning to recognize the difference
between these colors and identifying the tones, playing them at
different octaves so that's it's a little bit less difficult to use
relative pitch to distinguish the two. Then you start adding notes.
He doesn't give any more descriptions for the tones, and I'm not even
sure if he gives you a sequence to work on them.
I got his relative pitch course too, which was slightly more useful,
but again, he spends the first 5 tapes telling you how great relative
pitch is, telling you the difference between relative pitch and
perfect pitch. Then he goes on, for the 20+ remaining tapes, giving
you, basically, solfeg type exercises that you could figure out on
your own from the first actual instructional tape.
I don't even know where the hell my tapes are. I think I gave them to
somebody else, who probably lost them. r.i.p. wasted money.
-Dave
David Kotschessa
> Gonna get flamed for this, but its available on Kazza, and I can confirm
> that I'm glad I did not pay for this.
I think the fact that you actually listened to the thing is punishment enough.
-Dave
MBR
a one-handed slam-dunk into the trash bin works too.
Michael Tueller
(in message <cqFpa.836$7l.2...@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>):
IMHO those Perfect Pitch courses aren't worth a cent.
A very good book about developing your ears is:
"Harmonic Experience" by W.A.Mathieu
Beware: It's not one of those "in 21 days" books. You'll need alot
of time and practice. It's very well written and also fun to read and
work with.
(and it's currently reduced at amazon, grrr, I payed alot more...)
Michael (not related to the author, publisher or amazon)
Keith Freeman
> developing perfect pitch? There's the "Perfect Pitch Ear Training
> SuperCourse" by David Lucas Burge
as you) to do the exercises with, and I never found another guitarist who
was sufficiently interested in "learning" perfect pitch.
Burge claims that you can't do it using recordings.
-Keith
David Kotschessa
> "Harmonic Experience" by W.A.Mathieu
> Beware: It's not one of those "in 21 days" books. You'll need alot
> of time and practice. It's very well written and also fun to read and
> work with.
> (and it's currently reduced at amazon, grrr, I payed alot more...)
>
> Michael (not related to the author, publisher or amazon)
Don't worry. Amazon probably wouoldn't ship it to you anyway. I
doubt they even really have it.
-Dave (certified amazon basher and disgruntled ex-customer)
Lucas Costner
If you want to develop perfect pitch i highly recommend you visist
http://www.lpeters.de
he has the most beneficial ear training program i have ever used. it
can play intervals, chords, scales, and individual notes. this has
helped me to work on my skills without annoying someone with the many,
many, hours of ear training help i have needed.
(btw, this is not spam, i'm not affiliated w/ him in any way.) Lucas
Costner
Keith Freeman
> http://www.lpeters.de
>
> he has the most beneficial ear training program i have ever used. it
> can play intervals, chords, scales, and individual notes.
-Keith
Tom Runnacles
to acquire perfect pitch when the opportunity cost is so high in terms
of all the other more interesting and important stuff there is to work
on musically. Good relative pitch is what's needed.
I lived with a guy who had naturally perfect pitch when I was at
college - a truly phenomenal musician, but having absolute pitch was
something he saw as being pretty much no more significant musically
than a party piece. Indeed, he actually faced an obstacle which is
invisible to the rest of us, namely that when the people he played
with were perfectly in tune with one another but a little bit off
'concert' pitch in absolute terms, it was actually painful for him.
Acquiring perfect pitch to that level would probably be a mistake for
jazzers, unless you can guarantee you'll always be playing with pianos
which are kept perfectly tuned :)
Keith Freeman
> with were perfectly in tune with one another but a little bit off
> 'concert' pitch in absolute terms, it was actually painful for him.
>
> Acquiring perfect pitch to that level would probably be a mistake for
> jazzers, unless you can guarantee you'll always be playing with pianos
> which are kept perfectly tuned :)
Isn't that a problem that only afflicts people who are "born" with perfect
pitch? I can't imagine that "learned" perfect pitch would have that effect
(?).
-Keith
Bob R
freeke...@compuserve.com wrote on 4/28/03 8:13 AM:
I have perfect pitch. Other than impress-your-friends type tricks, I haven't
found it to be of any practical value whatsoever. I can't for the life of me
see why anyone would spend a couple hundred bucks for the joy of being able
to hear, in excruciating detail, how poorly equal temperament really works.
-- Bob Russell
http://www.bobrussellguitar.com
CD, "Watch This!", available at:
http://www.cdbaby.com/bobrussell
Keith Freeman
> see why anyone would spend a couple hundred bucks for the joy of being
> able to hear, in excruciating detail, how poorly equal temperament
> really works.
it would help me to identify notes when listening/transcribing, not to
know whether the soloist is two cents out.
As for equal temperament, it's a bit like Churchill's description of
capitalism: a terrible system, until you compare it with the
alternatives! I tune my harpsichord in uneven temperament, which sounds
great for early baroque but starts sounding really interesting beyond two
sharps or flats...
-Keith
Bob R
freeke...@compuserve.com wrote on 4/28/03 8:43 AM:
> But that's surely not the aim of learning perfect pitch? My idea was that
> it would help me to identify notes when listening/transcribing, not to
> know whether the soloist is two cents out.
That would rely on your interval hearing skills more than on perfect pitch.
> As for equal temperament, it's a bit like Churchill's description of
> capitalism: a terrible system, until you compare it with the
> alternatives! I tune my harpsichord in uneven temperament, which sounds
> great for early baroque but starts sounding really interesting beyond two
> sharps or flats...
Equal temperament is a necessary evil, I suppose, but to me it just means
that the music's going to be more or less equally out of tune in any key. I
don't worry too much about it; I've seen people who become obsessed with
tempered-tuning schemes to the point where they put more focus on tuning
than on playing. I just do the best I can and grit my teeth a lot when I
have to double a line with the piano player. :-)
Charlie Robinson
found it to be of any practical value whatsoever. >>
<< Bob Russell >>
--------------------------------------
Think of all the money you save by whistling yourself an E instead of buying
tuners.
Charlie Robinson Jazz Guitarist, Composer
You can hear me online at: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/robinsonchazz
or http://www.soundclick.com/bands/rmmgj_music.htm
Keith Freeman
> pitch.
to visualize/remember lots of scale degrees/alterations, in other words I
have to analyse the thing on the spot. If I could hear notes then I could
just remember the note names and analyse them later, at my leisure.
-Keith
Max Leggett
A 6th is a 6th is a 6th. That's what you need to hear. Whether it's A
in C or E in G it's a 6th.
David Kotschessa
AND herein lies a very interesting point about perfect vs. relative
pitch: they are complimentary skills. Hopefully Mr. Russell can back
me up on this, having been either blessed or cursed with perfect pitch
himself...
Having torured myself with the Burge products I can share perhaps one
of the few useful distinctions I gained from it. Perfect pitch will
allow you to distinguish individual pitches, either in our out of
context. But, from what I've heard, it has no bearing on being able
to distinguish the RELATIONSHIPS between the notes. That's an
entirely different skill - relative pitch.
What's somewhat surprising is that one supposedly has very little
bearing on the other. Sure, they will help - they are complimentary,
but they have to be developed independently. Coming back to the color
analogy that we mortals have to use, I guess it would be like being
able to recognize red from blue, but not knowing what their
relationship is. (Which is expressed in terms of wavelengths????)
Having said all this, one can see both the usefulness and the
uselessness of perfect pitch. Most people just don't need it.
One reason I do wish I had it, was for the sake of composition. I get
a lot of good ideas - my best ideas in fact - for things when I'm
nowhere near an instrument, and I can usually scribble something down
on paper, and I'm using relative pitch to do so. But sometimes they
get way too complicated for my current relative pitch skills and I
sometimes lose the idea.
Sometimes I'll write my brilliant idea down, then go home and try to
play it. Sounds NOTHING like what I was thinking before, and now that
I've played something different, I've managed to do a complete
overwrite of the data in my head.
-Dvae
Greg D
At elast you have this skill to be able to capture parts if not all of
a musical idea away from your instrument. Think of the many of us who
either have no musical ideas away from the instrument or no skill to
record it.
As for your particualr case, wouldn't a tape recorder be mroe
appropriate as a recording device?
Greg
mjguit7
Good points menioned. The only thing that helps this is being at a
point where you know the instrument to the point of visualizing the
notes on the neck. I asked Fareed Haque about this and he stated that
it's possible to compose an entire piece of music without your
instrument if you know the the neck very well. This is good for just
playing but, for the composition aspect, other methods have to be
used. In the book, guitar lore, (D. Sandole) there is an exercise
that allows you to develop a skill of root progression movement.
Basically, he postulates that any chord can resolve to any other
chord... and you practice that technique; literally going through many
various resolutions.
And, your ear slowly gets accustomed to hearing these movements which
in time,
lead to the skill of composing on the fly. Or you could try just
practicing with small motifs that skip around quite a bit, with no
more than 7 notes. This comes from a collegiate Aural skills class.
You will see results after a week or two... Good luck.
David Kotschessa
> Dvae, (love that French spelling, Dave :)
merci beaucoup! (?)
> At elast you have this skill to be able to capture parts if not all of
> a musical idea away from your instrument. Think of the many of us who
> either have no musical ideas away from the instrument or no skill to
> record it.
If you play for long, concentrated periods it just sort of happens.
When I was in middle school/high school during summer vacations I
would just play constantly. After awhile your brain doesn' tknow the
difference between playing and not playing. So, even if I went back
into class, I still had all this stuff going through my head. I wrote
a lot of "Cool riffs" in chemistry (which I failed).
> As for your particualr case, wouldn't a tape recorder be mroe
> appropriate as a recording device?
Hey, good point! The only problem with this is that it's usually not
just single line stuff... It's harmonic or arrangement ideas... Things
with more than one voice. Somebody should make a tiny multitrack tape
recorder...
-Dave
David Kotschessa
> Good points menioned. The only thing that helps this is being at a
> point where you know the instrument to the point of visualizing the
> notes on the neck. I asked Fareed Haque about this and he stated that
> it's possible to compose an entire piece of music without your
> instrument if you know the the neck very well.
Knowing the neck *aurally* though. Even if you can visualize where
all the notes are (i.e. E on the open 1st string, 2/5, 3/9 etc) if you
can't hear them it won't really help, though I assume that's what you
meant. Not sure.
> This is good for just
> playing but, for the composition aspect, other methods have to be
> used. In the book, guitar lore, (D. Sandole) there is an exercise
> that allows you to develop a skill of root progression movement.
> Basically, he postulates that any chord can resolve to any other
> chord... and you practice that technique; literally going through many
> various resolutions.
That sounds really intesting. I should buy the book, but can you
expand upon that a little? Does it have to do with keeping the voice
leading close together perhaps?
> And, your ear slowly gets accustomed to hearing these movements which
> in time,
> lead to the skill of composing on the fly. Or you could try just
> practicing with small motifs that skip around quite a bit, with no
> more than 7 notes. This comes from a collegiate Aural skills class.
> You will see results after a week or two... Good luck.
Hmm, still have no idea what that means... I will look for the book.
-Dave
mjguit7
> m...@lucent.com (mjguit7) wrote in message news:<d2cb1579.03042...@posting.google.com>...
>
> > Good points menioned. The only thing that helps this is being at a
> > point where you know the instrument to the point of visualizing the
> > notes on the neck. I asked Fareed Haque about this and he stated that
> > it's possible to compose an entire piece of music without your
> > instrument if you know the the neck very well.
>
> Knowing the neck *aurally* though. Even if you can visualize where
> all the notes are (i.e. E on the open 1st string, 2/5, 3/9 etc) if you
> can't hear them it won't really help, though I assume that's what you
> meant. Not sure.
You are correct; it is ALL aural. And it applies to chords and
notes....
>
>
>
> > This is good for just
> > playing but, for the composition aspect, other methods have to be
> > used. In the book, guitar lore, (D. Sandole) there is an exercise
> > that allows you to develop a skill of root progression movement.
> > Basically, he postulates that any chord can resolve to any other
> > chord... and you practice that technique; literally going through many
> > various resolutions.
>
> That sounds really intesting. I should buy the book, but can you
> expand upon that a little? Does it have to do with keeping the voice
> leading close together perhaps?
Actually, they do and don't, depending on what you want to achieve.
One
exercise is: V bII IV II I. Try this in C. And then try it in all
possible inversions, purposely memorizing what you hear... You will
get results. And you won't have to worry about memorizing songs and
memorizing them in any key.
When I studied with Sandole, I asked how do you memorize all these
tunes. He said "You never memorize tunes; they can be quickly
memorized and quickly forgotten. Your ear will tell you everything
you need to know." And if you have a working knowledge (vocabulary)
of the aforementioned, you won't need to... But it must be practiced
on a regular basis... I COULD do this at one point, but I stopped and
lost some of this ability.
>
>
> > And, your ear slowly gets accustomed to hearing these movements which
> > in time,
> > lead to the skill of composing on the fly. Or you could try just
> > practicing with small motifs that skip around quite a bit, with no
> > more than 7 notes. This comes from a collegiate Aural skills class.
> > You will see results after a week or two... Good luck.
Basically, the instructor told us to start with a 2 or 3 note motif in
your head, write out what you think it is, then try to play it on your
instrument.
Over time, you start to see the notes and relate an aural pitch in
your head...
Theodre Presser is the publisher of "Guitar Lore".
M-
Keith Freeman
> exercise is: V bII IV II I. Try this in C.
-Keith
mjguit7
They're chords. And the types can vary, depending on the sound you
are trying to achieve (also try dimished, aug and extensions,
alterations, inversions, etc). This was one of the methods Coltrane
utilized to develop various substitutions for his playing. Your ear
will learn to hear it...
David Kotschessa
> dkots...@yahoo.com (David Kotschessa) wrote in message news:<4589696c.0304...@posting.google.com>...
> > m...@lucent.com (mjguit7) wrote in message
> > That sounds really intesting. I should buy the book, but can you
> > expand upon that a little? Does it have to do with keeping the voice
> > leading close together perhaps?
>
> Actually, they do and don't, depending on what you want to achieve.
> One
> exercise is: V bII IV II I. Try this in C. And then try it in all
> possible inversions, purposely memorizing what you hear... You will
> get results. And you won't have to worry about memorizing songs and
> memorizing them in any key.
> When I studied with Sandole, I asked how do you memorize all these
> tunes. He said "You never memorize tunes; they can be quickly
> memorized and quickly forgotten. Your ear will tell you everything
> you need to know." And if you have a working knowledge (vocabulary)
> of the aforementioned, you won't need to... But it must be practiced
> on a regular basis... I COULD do this at one point, but I stopped and
> lost some of this ability.
Ok, I had to sleep on that one... When you first talked about any
chord resolving to any other, I thought it was an exercise involving
those two chords only. That'd be interesting would it? Wasn't sure
how it would work.
I'm still not sure I get the exercise completely, based on the
example. I really would like to look into it further. I am really
interested in the general concept of *understanding* how progressions
sound aurally rather than memorizing songs, which seems to be what
you're getting at. Jimmy Bruno said something to the effect that
there are only about 10 progressions. I know there are some books
about this out there.
I feel a new thread coming on.
-Dave
mjguit7
You are definitely on the right track. And I didn't know WHAT this
guy was teaching me until I began to KNOW where the harmony was going
in songs; it automatically helps your improvisation because after
hearing the music, you retain the overall aural landscape of the piece
and can compose your lines very clearly. Jimmy B. is correct in there
are only so many progressions in Western harmony; the challenge is to
hear the non-western ones really good. Your ear becomes HUGE....
Rick Stone
talking about the David L. Burge materials. I own all of them so here's
my take:
Perfect Pitch Ear Training:
This one's his big marketing come-on. Perfect Pitch has such a nice ring
to it and he's offering something that nobody else has (the course I
mean). It's only 8 CDs, and is a bit less expensive (right now it's $139)
than his Relative Pitch Course. Be forwarned that in order to really get
the full benefit out of this course, you should be working with a partner
and doing the exercises on a live instrument (read that as "real in-tune
acoustic piano") He claims that with the CD version that's not as
important, but I believe it's still a pretty big factor in the
effectiveness of the course. I didn't find it all that useful.
Relative Pitch Ear Training:
This one's the real deal. It's 41 CDs and costs $299. It would be the
IDEAL introduction to music theory for any beginner-intermediate player.
An advanced student might get impatient with the pace, but I found that
(even after playing for 39 years, transcribing constantly, getting several
degrees in music and playing with some of the best players!) I was able to
strengthen my own hearing by going through all the exercises and tests in
this course thoroughly. It moves very SLOWLY but also very THOROUGHLY
through all the basics of intervals, scales, chords, etc. with the idea
being that you shouldn't move ahead past any lesson until it has been
completely MASTERED.
The $299 Relative Pitch course seems like a lot of bread, but in reality
it's the better deal.
You can check out his stuff at http://www.eartraining.com
And no, I don't get paid to say this, just my experience with the stuff.
_______________________________________
\__ Rick Stone _____________________________
\__ guitarist/composer/teacher _________________
\__ email: jaz...@inch.com _________ ______________
\__ Check out the Rick Stone Quartet "Far East" _______
\__ with Kenny Barron at: http://www.rickstonemusic.com ___
Rick Stone
Keith,
This is true, you DO need to be able to "analyze the thing on the spot." But
if you've spent the time doing the ground-work by developing your intervallic
and theory knowledge totally, this is actually the EASIEST way to hear and
play.
Even if one were to develop perfect pitch, you couldn't function on the
bandstand without the kind of relative pitch that I just described.
Don't waste valuable time searching for the musical "holy grail." Get down to
the real work of developing your relative pitch and theory knowledge. You
won't be sorry.
Rick Stone
> A 6th is a 6th is a 6th. That's what you need to hear. Whether it's A
> in C or E in G it's a 6th.
You must remember this
a 6th is still a 6th
a V is just a V
The fundamental things apply
as time goes by . . . .
;->
Just couldn't resist,
Rick Stone
> > of the few useful distinctions I gained from it. Perfect pitch will
> > allow you to distinguish individual pitches, either in our out of
> > context. But, from what I've heard, it has no bearing on being able
> > to distinguish the RELATIONSHIPS between the notes. That's an
> > entirely different skill - relative pitch.
This is very true, and as I've mentioned earlier in this thread, the Burge Relative Pitch course is really going to
be of the most value to most musicians.
> > What's somewhat surprising is that one supposedly has very little
> > bearing on the other. Sure, they will help - they are complimentary,
> > but they have to be developed independently. Coming back to the color
> > analogy that we mortals have to use, I guess it would be like being
> > able to recognize red from blue, but not knowing what their
> > relationship is. (Which is expressed in terms of wavelengths????)
> >
> > Having said all this, one can see both the usefulness and the
> > uselessness of perfect pitch. Most people just don't need it.
> >
> > One reason I do wish I had it, was for the sake of composition. I get
> > a lot of good ideas - my best ideas in fact - for things when I'm
> > nowhere near an instrument, and I can usually scribble something down
> > on paper, and I'm using relative pitch to do so. But sometimes they
> > get way too complicated for my current relative pitch skills and I
> > sometimes lose the idea.
I used to have the same problem, but it has a lot to do with the accuracy (or lack thereof) that you've developed
you relative pitch to. Most people (myself included) just don't hear as accurately as they need to in order to do
this easily.
The main problem comes from the fact that we're living an a society where everyone's busy RUSHING through things
trying to get to the NEXT thing. In order to hear, you have to develop a certain kind of calmness that allows you
BE WHERE YOU ARE. You have to relax and slow things down in your head to the point that you're just picking out one
interval or note at a time.
It's not really that difficult. You can learn to hear anything from Charlie Parker to Eric Dolphy that way if you
want, but most people are just much to impatient to deal with developing their ears, and then try to bite off way
more than they can chew.
> > Sometimes I'll write my brilliant idea down, then go home and try to
> > play it. Sounds NOTHING like what I was thinking before, and now that
> > I've played something different, I've managed to do a complete
> > overwrite of the data in my head.
You need to practice doing this around an instrument, but try not to touch it while you're writing (just to get an
occasional pitch reference). You could also carry around a "Master-Key" (that little wheel shaped chromatic pitch
instrument). I've found that to be a valuable ear-training tool and have kept one in my pocket for the last 15
years.
Rick Stone
> At elast you have this skill to be able to capture parts if not all of
> > a musical idea away from your instrument. Think of the many of us who
> > either have no musical ideas away from the instrument or no skill to
> > record it.
>
> If you play for long, concentrated periods it just sort of happens.
> When I was in middle school/high school during summer vacations I
> would just play constantly. After awhile your brain doesn' tknow the
> difference between playing and not playing. So, even if I went back
> into class, I still had all this stuff going through my head. I wrote
> a lot of "Cool riffs" in chemistry (which I failed).
Sometime in the last 15 years, I developed something like perfect pitch, but in reverse. If you play
a note in isolation and ask me to identify it, I'd have a hard time. But if I'm in a quiet room and
just close my eyes for a second, I can hear PERFECTLY the sound of the open string notes of the
guitar. I just walked over to the piano, sang an E and plunked my finger on it and it was dead-on
accurate (not kind-of in the neighborhood, but exactly in tune). I have not played or listened to any
music yet today. In fact, I've noticed that when I'm confronted with listening to music, it becomes
more difficult for me to do this. I think what I've actually done is just developed really good pitch
"retenton" from playing anywhere from 4-8 hours a day for the past 39 years.
> > As for your particualr case, wouldn't a tape recorder be mroe
> > appropriate as a recording device?
>
> Hey, good point! The only problem with this is that it's usually not
> just single line stuff... It's harmonic or arrangement ideas... Things
> with more than one voice. Somebody should make a tiny multitrack tape
> recorder...
It's also necessary to do "harmonic" ear training. You need to learn to hear all the common chord
voicings (and eventually the not-so-common ones) not by trying to pick out each note, but just hearing
the "color" of the verticle sonority. The tape-recorder and a piano is probably the best way to do
this.
Start with a few chord voicings and record them in the following format. Since you're going for
hearing the sonority here, keep it simple and play the all from the same root.
1) Play the chord and just hold it until it naturally decays
2) Say the name of the chord (for example G13b9)
3) Play the chord one note at a time, naming the "function" of each note (for example; Root, 7th, 3rd,
13th, b9)
4) Play the chord as in step 1 about 4 more times.
5) Pick a new chord and repeat the process.
Don't do too many at first. Try maybe a dozen or fewer. Work with those until you can hear them
instantly EVERY time (not mis-identifying them sometimes or having to stop to think about it). Then
add a few more voicings and do it all again. Over time, your harmonic hearing will improve
dramatically.
Hope this helps.
Dan Adler
> Relative Pitch Ear Training:
> This one's the real deal. It's 41 CDs and costs $299. It would be the
> IDEAL introduction to music theory for any beginner-intermediate player.
> An advanced student might get impatient with the pace, but I found that
> (even after playing for 39 years, transcribing constantly, getting several
> degrees in music and playing with some of the best players!) I was able to
> strengthen my own hearing by going through all the exercises and tests in
> this course thoroughly. It moves very SLOWLY but also very THOROUGHLY
> through all the basics of intervals, scales, chords, etc. with the idea
> being that you shouldn't move ahead past any lesson until it has been
> completely MASTERED.
>
> The $299 Relative Pitch course seems like a lot of bread, but in reality
> it's the better deal.
>
> You can check out his stuff at http://www.eartraining.com
>
> And no, I don't get paid to say this, just my experience with the stuff.
I did Burge's relative pitch course as well a few years ago when it
was on cassettes rather than CD's, and I agree that it's probably the
best out there.
The 'grand rounds' and 'lightening rounds' are brilliant concepts and
to this day, whenever I hear a perfect fifth, I hear Burge's voice in
my mind singing "perfect-fifth, perfect-fifth, la-la, la-la". Those of
you who took it know what I mean :-)
In terms of the pace, it's very slow until he gets to chords and
inversions, and then it takes off pretty fast. I had to supplement
that part with my own exercises just to get through it...
Bo
>> > Having torured myself with the Burge products I can share perhaps one
>> > of the few useful distinctions I gained from it. Perfect pitch will
>> > allow you to distinguish individual pitches, either in our out of
>> > context. But, from what I've heard, it has no bearing on being able
>> > to distinguish the RELATIONSHIPS between the notes. That's an
>> > entirely different skill - relative pitch.
>
> This is very true, and as I've mentioned earlier in this thread, the Burge
Relative Pitch course is really going to
> be of the most value to most musicians.
>
Yes Burge's relative pitch course is excellent (if you don´t cheat that is;).
I can also recommend the computer program "Improvisor".
http://www.invite-software.com/
What do you think of Mixon Donovan's course? It is more about Solfege I think.
Is it good? On what level is it?
Bosse
Rick Stone
> What do you think of Mixon Donovan's course? It is more about Solfege I think.
> Is it good? On what level is it?
> Bosse
Don't know about Donovan's course. But Solfege is certainly a very valuable skill
for any musician.
I found myself using quite a bit this afternoon as I was transcribing a bunch of
Italian songs I needed to learn for a regular gig I do. I was out in New Jersey
sitting in the car and killing some time while my wife was riding her horse. I
didn't bring my instrument, but had a CD walkman, a pad of manuscript, and a pitch
pipe (to get the first note). I find that when I learn something this way, I
automatically visualize the guitar and can usually remember it and play it next
time I've got the instrument in my hands.
Rick Stone
> Gonna get flamed for this, but its available on Kazza, and I can confirm
> that I'm glad I did not pay for this.
>
> Pat Smith wrote:
>
> > Having bought the stinking David Lucas Burge set I can say for sure
> > don't waste your money. Burge spends like 5 CDs just telling you how
> > easy it is before he tells you the big secret...just listen and hear the
> > difference between the notes...it's like colors except it's not
> > colors...yeesh. Ok, so it seemed like a good idea at the time
Jim,
I'd agree with you that the Perfect Pitch course is not that great. But
Burge's Relative Pitch course is a whole other ball of wax. The concept isn't
as glamorous a concept to sell, and doing the whole thing is a lot of work,
but it's very well thought out and is actually not that expensive for what it
is (something like 40 CDs for $299).
I know that Burge's marketting scheme seems to be to get folks in the door by
selling the less costly Perfect Pitch course first, and then making them aware
of the relative pitch course. B7ut I'd recommend most folks to just do the
end-run. Bypass the Perfect Pitch course and pick up Relative Pitch. It's
ultimately going to help you a lot more as a musician.
--
Jurupari
that'd be perfect!
Clif
Rick Stone
I've had that same thought on a few occasions! Remember the "Hurling Day"
episode of Jim Henson's series Dinosours? That was the one where the
dinosours agreed that in order to thin the herd, every dinosour would be
hurled into the tar pit at age 60. As a consolation for going along with all
this ritual, male dinosours got the privledge of hurling their own
mother-in-law when she turned 60. Of course, most of them LIVED for that day.
Jurupari
>episode of Jim Henson's series Dinosours?
Yes! perfect match.. For those of you who don't get west, Sinclair is a brand
of 'Erl' that's used a dinosaur as a logo since I was a kid.
Clif
Jurupari
>as glamorous a concept to sell, and doing the whole thing is a lot of work,
>but it's very well thought out and is actually not that expensive for what it
>is
Hi, Rick -
I guess my question on a relative pitch training regimen would be 'is it better
than gigging regularly?'
You're a good person to ask about this since you work a lot, so did it give you
a better edge than just a busy schedule would have?
When I worked six days a week, relative pitch was a breeze - I think it's just
pitch retention. It's reinforced if you double as a vocalist too. But, I've
been trying to sing everything I played for a really long time, and I think
that helps too.
Clif Kuplen
Don & Heidi
"Jurupari" <juru...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030504164150...@mb-m16.aol.com...
stations were white with green trim. The dino (a bronto
type) was solid green.
Wasn't their jingle to the tune of 'Music, Music, Music' with
nickel, nickel, nickel taking the place of music,...?
dj
Jurupari
>nickel, nickel, nickel taking the place of music,...?
I don't remember the jingle, but there's a sinclair station on the corner a
mile from my house in Denver. Here's a cool piece of trivia about them. They
and Conoco are the only US petroleum companies that purchase NO oil from the
middle east. That's right, NONE!! Cool, huh?
Clif
thomas
>
> I don't remember the jingle, but there's a sinclair station on the corner a
> mile from my house in Denver. Here's a cool piece of trivia about them. They
> and Conoco are the only US petroleum companies that purchase NO oil from the
> middle east. That's right, NONE!! Cool, huh?
Really? When I lived in Egypt in the mid 70s, Conoco was drilling
like crazy all over the middle east, from Tunisia heading west.
Jurupari
>like crazy all over the middle east, from Tunisia heading west.
>
Well, I got that from CNN. I don't know anything past that, but they ID's
those two companies as being out of middle east oil. Maybe it's more recent
with Conoco.
Bob R
juru...@aol.com wrote on 5/5/03 9:20 PM:
Hey, every jazz guitar player needs to keep informed about US crude oil
import sources, right? (?)
<http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_leve
l_imports/current/summary2002.html>
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad
people will find a way around the laws." - Plato
-- Bob Russell
http://www.bobrussellguitar.com
Rick Stone
Hey, I had the inflatable Sinclair dinosour when I was a kid! One day on a beach
we used to summer at on Lake Erie, the wind got going and thing probably wound up
in Canada. I didn't know that the brand was still around (haven't seen it since
the sixties).
Rick Stone
> >The concept isn't
> >as glamorous a concept to sell, and doing the whole thing is a lot of work,
> >but it's very well thought out and is actually not that expensive for what it
> >is
>
> Hi, Rick -
>
> I guess my question on a relative pitch training regimen would be 'is it better
> than gigging regularly?'
Nothing is better than gigging regularly! If you're not playing, it's difficult to
even know WHAT to practice. But when you work regularly, there it is staring you
in the face every night.
> You're a good person to ask about this since you work a lot, so did it give you
> a better edge than just a busy schedule would have?
Everything helps. And I'll say it again, even as an experienced musician, I went
through the ENTIRE course and found that it helped me tighten up certain aspects of
my listening and hearing. In fact, I've found that the longer I play, the more
BASIC are the kinds of things I feel the need to practice. In Stephan Covey's "7
Habits of Highly Effective People" I think this kind of thing probably falls under
"Sharpening the Saw."
One danger of working a lot is that it can be difficult to carve out some time to
spend with your instrument off-the-job. After all, you're putting in lots of time
on it already, but you're always under some pressure so it's not the same as being
able to practice and master things at your leisure.
> When I worked six days a week, relative pitch was a breeze - I think it's just
> pitch retention. It's reinforced if you double as a vocalist too. But, I've
> been trying to sing everything I played for a really long time, and I think
> that helps too.
Singing is extremely important for any musician. I'm pretty much always
subvocalizing when I play, and occasionally start audibly singing if I'm not too
self-conscious.
Jurupari
>import sources, right? (?)
hey, it was a segue!
Wim
a pitch with an accuracy of about 1 semitone. However it only works
good with musical instruments, I am not able to identify rapidly the
pitch of a car horn or something like that.
During childhood I learned to read and sing music. Compared with my
classmates, I had a very good hearing ability.
But for some time in my life, between 16 and 18, when I learned to
play the guitar, I only used relative pitch and it didn't confuse me.
I didn't do that consciously, it just went that way. Maybe intuitively
I found that it was very useful on the guitar, because the relative
fingerings for any key are identical.
Actually I didn't care at all what the real key was, I just played
along with (pop)music on records and the radio, changing my pitch
reference all the time. I preferred to imagine playing in the easy
keys, like C or G or F.
Then I "discovered" jazz and took some lessons, and I changed my
hearing completely and started to listen and play again in an
"absolute" way. I found it to be the best way to deal with jazz
harmony, due to the frequent modulations and altered chords.
I think since them I'm using a combination of relative and absolute
pitch. The absolute part became rather strong again. E.g. I'm very
clumsy on an instrument that's out of tune. Strange, because I had no
problem about 15 years ago for playing and listening completely with
relative pitch.
Anyway, my approxamitve absolute pitch is and has been very useful for
listening/analysing/playing jazz.
I can easily transpose melodies, almost instantly, so I guess this is
a useful remainder of my "relative" period.
David Kotschessa
It's good to read a positive report of absolute pitch. It seems that
all I read is people complaining about it! I always have a hard time
feeling sorry for them though :) Though maybe it's more of nuisance
when it's as others have described, as in hearing car horns, open car
windows, etc.
Nope... still can't feel bad for them!
-Dave
Don & Heidi
"David Kotschessa" <dkots...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4589696c.03051...@posting.google.com...
Don & Heidi
"David Kotschessa" <dkots...@yahoo.com> wrote
>
> It's good to read a positive report of absolute pitch. It seems that
> all I read is people complaining about it! I always have a hard time
> feeling sorry for them though :) Though maybe it's more of nuisance
> when it's as others have described, as in hearing car horns, open car
> windows, etc.
>
> Nope... still can't feel bad for them!
>
recognizing colors at a moment's notice. I almost never see the
color blue to the point of being distracted. I think the
so called perfect pitch people who can't stand hearing stuff tuned
from non 440hz values are a demonstration that absolute pitch is
actually an evolutionary quality that humanity is leaving behind.
Relative pitch is much more important these days in the human
scheme of things. At one time speech was probably very musical
as it still is in some locales, speech and music have been diverging
from a previous form of communication for a long time allowing
both to become more complex and gradually renedering absolute
pitch useless in normal everyday use. bs quota full, must stop...
dj
tomw
says...
>
snip
bs quota full, must stop...
>
> dj
>
>
>
Hey, you were just warming up!
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
http://www.arts.cornell.edu/zeus/
Jeff
ability to *instantly* recognize any frequency that is occurring. Chair
squeaks, car horns, farts, cat meows, high trumpet notes.........they're all
game. I'm great at parties :-)
--
Jeff Johnson
AIM: musicjj
"Wim" <roundmid...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
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Jeff
mass" thinking that it's in Bb minor. I spent too much time outside in
marching band :-)
--
Jeff Johnson
AIM: musicjj
"Don & Heidi" <hsa...@epix.net> wrote in message
news:DL7wa.4381$EZ5.1...@news1.epix.net...
David Kotschessa
> Let's remember that "absolute" or "perfect" pitch involves having the
> ability to *instantly* recognize any frequency that is occurring. Chair
> squeaks, car horns, farts, cat meows, high trumpet notes.........they're all
> game.
Wasn't that a John Cage piece?
-Dave
Jeff
--
Jeff Johnson
AIM: musicjj
"David Kotschessa" <dkots...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
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