What is todays modern cutting edge jazz?
Charlie Robinson
was wondering what you guys think that might be. What groups or persons do you
feel are on the cutting edge of today's music?
Charlie Robinson Jazz Guitarist, Composer
You can hear me online at: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/robinsonchazz
or: <A HREF="http://rmmgj.iuma.com">http://rmmgj.iuma.com</A>
matt hooley
Open up the latest jazz mag (Downbeat, JazzTimes, Jazziz etc.)
.....those guys, see them?
~mh
"Charlie Robinson" <robins...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020708222623...@mb-cv.aol.com...
mb
"matt hooley" <mho...@mindless.com> wrote in message
news:agdi7m$kupql$1...@ID-99122.news.dfncis.de...
matt hooley
~mh
"mb" <nos...@dogelbow.com> wrote in message
news:x3sW8.67114$wj4.5...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com...
mb
magazines print stories about the people and companies that purchase
advertising space from them, therefore we are seeing who has the money
behind them not who is 'cutting edge'. Haven't you ever heard an unknown
group or player and said "damn man, that guy is heavier than [INSERT
SIGNED/WORLD KNOWN PLAYERS NAME HERE]!" I have. Many times. If you can't
now, you should be able to hear through the crap that you are fed by the
'media' in time.
"matt hooley" <mho...@mindless.com> wrote in message
news:agdj4t$kp3sq$1...@ID-99122.news.dfncis.de...
matt hooley
mags themselves, there's lots of great player profiles, cd reviews and
discussion in general.
But ads are good to, especially the label ads cause you can see who's got
new albums out and you don't really have to worry about heavy commercialism,
even the most obscure players get in.news:TxsW8.67169$wj4.5...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com...
Scott McLoughlin
talents.
My question - are they so unique? Is anyone else doing interesting big band
work like Schneider? How anyone making music in something like Don Byron's
various styles (Tuskeegee, Six Musicians, Bug Music, Romance w/Unseen)?
Oh, and I'd like to throw in Paul Motion's "Electric Bebop Band" stuff. Goes
back to the mid 90's, but I think it has a killer sound applied to
standards. Great guitar work from Rosenwinkel and Muthspiel. Same goes for
his even earlier work with Frissell on the Bill Evans tunes.
Just some suggestions. I'm gonna have to take notes on this thread. I can
feel CD collection expansion looming on the horizon ;-)
Scott McLoughlin, Chairman
The Adrenaline Group, Inc.
"Charlie Robinson" <robins...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020708222623...@mb-cv.aol.com...
mb
may have only made sense to me). The *content* is dictated by who purchases
the *ads*. The authors write about players that are under companies that
pay for ads *or* the players themselves buy the ads. There are very few
exceptions, check it out sometime.
"matt hooley" <mho...@mindless.com> wrote in message
news:agdkv5$ks515$1...@ID-99122.news.dfncis.de...
matt hooley
dedicated, honest source that shares the truth about the jazz world, not
just media coverage to the highest bidder, that's rediculous. You've got to
trust the publications, who else can you trust?
~mh
"mb" <nos...@dogelbow.com> wrote in message
news:PJsW8.67190$wj4.5...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com...
matt u
If I can paraphrase my own previous post -
"... folks like Peter Brotzmann, Mats Gustaffson, Ken Vandermark, Tatsuo
Aoki, Hamid Drake, Jeb Bishop, William Parker, Matthew Shipp, Susie
Ibarra... "
...and I'll add Joe Morris and Jeff Parker, because this is a guitar
newsgroup.
I don't want to over-generalize by lumping them all together, but
there's my quick list. Some of music is loud, abstracted free stuff,
and some of it is so quiet as to be barely perceptible (thank the
Europeans for both extremes), but it is all vivid expression which finds
root in jazz.
Some amazing music.
Matt
mb
to learn about the 'biz'. Regarding this comment: "You've got to trust the
publications, who else can you trust?" Wow. They have you right where they
want you. How about trusting your own ears, fellow musicians, etc... This
is an example of how the media can shape the culture. They present players
that 'sound good' to you, and a little bit different (maybe they combine a
couple of your favorite styles in their music) then tell you those players
are on the 'cutting edge'. Then you go around saying these things like a
'good little consumer'. This isn't a stab at you, it's not your fault. I
am not saying that all that ends up in mags is crap, just that you need to
take those things for what they are: Industry Publications. There are
entire scenes of music that you will never hear (nor will I) that is amazing
and on the creative level of the 'greats'. We won't hear this stuff because
of a lack of money, exposure, lack of the 'look', etc...
You must be a young man not to have any cynicism about these things yet.
It's ok, don't be ashamed or get defensive, give it time you'll get there.
"matt hooley" <mho...@mindless.com> wrote in message
news:agdpe9$ks3r9$1...@ID-99122.news.dfncis.de...
Joe Finn
> What groups or persons do you
> feel are on the cutting edge of today's music?
I'm sure I'm leaving somebody out but here goes......
Big Band: Maria Schneider, LCJO
Boy singer: Kurt Elling
Girl Singer: Cassandra Wilson
Pop Oriented Girl Singer with the best arrangements and album covers: Dianna
Krall
Vibes: Stefon Harris
Trombone: Steve Turre
Clarinet: Don Byron
Drummer: Jack DeJohnette, Elvin Jones, Tain Watts, Billy Hart
Bass: Charlie Haden, Dave Holland, Christian McBride, John Patitucci
Electric bass: Steve Swallow
Guitar: Jimmy Bruno, Pat Martino, George Benson, Russell Malone, Paul
Bollenback, Dom Minasi, Howard Alden, Mark Whitfield, Peter Leitch, Peter
Bernstein, Mark Elf, Jack Wilkins
Electric guitar: John Scofield, Ben Monder
Piano: Herbie Hancock, Keith Jarrett, McCoy Tyner, Cecil Taylor, Gonzalo
Rubalcaba, Brad Mehldau
Organ: Joey DeFrancesco
Guilty nostalgic pleasure: John Pizzarelli, Tony Bennett
Tenor: Joe Lovano, Michael Brecker, Joshua Redman, Sonny Rollins, Wayne
Shorter, Chris Potter
Soprano: Dave Liebman, Wayne Shorter, Branford Marsalis
Alto: Richie Cole
Trumpet: Tom Harrell, Wynton Marsalis, Wallace Roney, Roy Hargrove, Nicholas
Payton, Jon Faddis, Ryan Kisor
Arranger/ Composer: Wynton Marsalis, Carla Bley, Maria Schneider
Call me a square but this is what I listen to.
All apologies to those whose names I spelled wrong. ........joe
--
Visit me on the web. www.JoeFinn.net
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Nazodesu
<nos...@dogelbow.com> wrote:
> Man, you missed the point (I thought I made it pretty clearly, but then it
> may have only made sense to me). The *content* is dictated by who purchases
> the *ads*. The authors write about players that are under companies that
> pay for ads *or* the players themselves buy the ads. There are very few
> exceptions, check it out sometime.
This is only partially true; they must also promo artists that people
want to read about--or their distribution numbers won't warrant the
advertising dollars. Thus if they could do an article about BSpears
and get more potential subscribers and readers they'd do it. But if
they did an article on BSpears they would in fact get subscription
cancellation and thus less leverage for advertising dollars.
And so on. Reading the magazines is stil and excellent way to take the
jazz publics pulse. It may not be wholly accurate, but it beats most
any other venue.
Charlie Robinson
transposing i's and e's. I think that what we have gotten so far once you get
past the usual attacks on segments of the jazz system is indicative of the
confusion about what can be considered to be new, modern or cutting edge in
todays jazz world. In Joe's list which he feels to be conservative, names like
Cecil Taylor and Dom Minasi appear along with more mainsteam oriented players.
Others have also juxtaposed the mainstream with what was once called the
Avant-Garde. Is this an indication that the two forms are being melded as might
be assumed after hearing Wayne Shorter's latest efforts? Wynton Marasalis has
recently taken the stand that a mistake was made in assuming that the music
would keep on developing, that there is a cut off point at which it becomes a
traditional art form whose rules must be learned and followed. Do others feel
this way? Or perhaps the future is now in Europe, as another writer has
implied, now that they have co-opted Free jazz and made it their own.
Jimmy Bruno
move three or four voices constantly in a tune.
Jurupari
>
great list! Wish it was the national opinion poll. We'd all be giggin' our
butts off!
Clif
CRIPE733
"de-constructed" Ellington music...
Nazodesu
<ji...@jimmybruno.com> wrote:
> speaking of cutting edge. What about George VanEps? No one to this day can
> move three or four voices constantly in a tune.
I think the idea of moving 3 voices isn't considered "cutting edge".
Four facial tatoos--now *that* is cutting edge!
Jurupari
>Cecil Taylor and Dom Minasi appear along with more mainsteam oriented
>players.
>Others have also juxtaposed the mainstream with what was once called the
>Avant-Garde.
true. I liked Joe's list because it was at least on point for your discussion
- the other posts seemed to have wandered.
>mistake was made in assuming that the music
>would keep on developing, that there is a cut off point at which it becomes a
>traditional art form whose rules must be learned and followed. Do others feel
>this way?
The enigma to me is that jazz should have tradition and we should all be
familiar with it but it should have a cutting edge too that has nothing to do
with melding it into a more 'palatable product'.
This makes being a jazz musician progressively harder each generation, and
probably splinters us into specialists.
I'm having trouble keepin up with repertoire I like to play because that
expands every year, and I hate to get lax on anything I know. I have a BUNCH of
new ideas I want to dig into for the next couple of years, but there's that
repertoire thing, and I've been learning a lot of really challenging tunes,
which should be part of my own personal 'cutting edge' when I'm more familiar
with them. It'll work out in time assuming I have some.
On my own journey, now I've become relatively comfortable being a straight
ahead solo fingerstylist, I want to explore the other 'post bop' harmonic ideas
I keep hearing and that's sort of where I'm at now. I really appreciate this
newsgroup for fanning those flames - those are the GOOD flames! :o)
Charlie, I owe you, in fact for some great 7#9 chord forms awhile ago and the
reminder it provided that there's no 'box'. Thanks and Wow! Everytime I read
something like that, it opens a window and lets a little more light in, and it
happens all the time here.
Maybe someday we can say We have met the cutting edge, and it is us! Hope so,
anyway.
Good observation by Jimmy on three lines at once. I'm always inspired by what
George did and I'm pedalin' as fast as I can....
Clif Kuplen
matt hooley
look at all the good things the mags do for you that you couldn't possibly
do on your own.
~mh
"mb" <nos...@dogelbow.com> wrote in message
news:qXtW8.67828$wj4.5...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com...
mb
I am not taking a 'cynical' *approach*, I have TALKED to people who work at
those pubs and have had them TELL me how it works. So, I am telling you
something I know firsthand, are you speaking from experience?
Again, this is the general rule, some slip through, but very few.
"matt hooley" <mho...@mindless.com> wrote in message
news:agf1pt$l8nbm$1...@ID-99122.news.dfncis.de...
matt hooley
> Like what couldn't I possibly do on my own?
>
You couldn't possibly have personal conversations with all the top players
they do. etc. etc
> I am not taking a 'cynical' *approach*, I have TALKED to people who work
at
> those pubs and have had them TELL me how it works. So, I am telling you
> something I know firsthand, are you speaking from experience?
>
> Again, this is the general rule, some slip through, but very few.
>
I really don't see the validity here.
~mh
Kev
A few are mentioned in the "Can-o-worms" thread, as a tangent to the original
post.
-Kevin
mb
"matt hooley" <mho...@mindless.com> wrote in message
news:agf2r3$lagio$1...@ID-99122.news.dfncis.de...
Jimmy Bruno
> From: Nazodesu <mus...@adelphia.net>
> Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing
> Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz
> Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 14:20:11 GMT
> Subject: Re: What is todays modern cutting edge jazz?
>
Charlie Robinson
move three or four voices constantly in a tune. >>
<< Jimmy Bruno >>
--------------------------------------
This is why people seem to cling to the past, a reluctance to let go of the
things that were good . I take then that you agree with Marsalis. Or do you
feel that Van Eps should serve as an inspiration to those who would like to
push the boundaries by using the path he developed in order to come a different
place? Speaking of Downbeat it is ironic to me that you can look in various
publications to see who is playing in New York and see at times that they are
the same people who were being featured in Downbeat ads years ago.
Is it because no one has come up with anything better to say? What I seem to be
getting out of all of this is that there are no cutting edge jazz movements at
present, only rehashes of what came before including the Avant-garde.
Jack A. Zucker
> actually I'm dead serious, why would you think that I was kidding?
I wish my killfile worked on google...
Matt, do you believe everything you read? If so, since Britany's in
more magazines than Charlie Hunter does that make her music better? If
Britany was interviewed in a jazz magazine would that make her a
cutting edge jazz musician?
Regarding cutting edge jazz guitar:
Wayne Krantz, Allen Holdsworth (still, after all these years), Ben
Monder, Wolfgang Muthspiel, Pat Metheny (sometimes). Some folks might
add Kurt Rosenwinkel. I've only heard him on one recording so I'll
reserve judgement.
Jaz
Charlie Robinson
recently taken the stand >>
Marsalis--Sorry Wynton but since Jimmy Bruno's appearance on the scene we have
no shame here about these type of things.
Joey Goldstein
"Jack A. Zucker" wrote:
>
> Some folks might
> add Kurt Rosenwinkel. I've only heard him on one recording so I'll
> reserve judgement.
You would love KR Jack. Check him out some more.
--
Joey Goldstein
Guitarist/Jazz Recording Artist/Teacher
Home Page: http://www.joeygoldstein.com
Email: <joegold AT sympatico DOT ca>
Joe Finn
> In Joe's list which he feels to be conservative, names like
> Cecil Taylor and Dom Minasi appear along with more mainsteam oriented
players.
I really like what was once called avant garde. In fact I'm part of a group
called The Woodstock Quantum Ensemble with rmmjg contributor Johnny Asia
that plays pretty much outside material. It's a gas! We have a concert
coming up in Kingston, New York on July 20. The group also has some upcoming
dates at the Knitting Factory.
On the other hand I'm also a something of a traditionalist. My guilty
pleasures include Frank Sinatra and I love show tunes. I grew up listening
to that stuff and I never tire of it. I do a lot of gigs where I play and
sing Gershwin, Porter, VanHeusen, Mercer etc.
> Others have also juxtaposed the mainstream with what was once called the
> Avant-Garde. Is this an indication that the two forms are being melded as
might
> be assumed after hearing Wayne Shorter's latest efforts?
Shorter's recent stuff is a good example.
> Wynton Marasalis has
> recently taken the stand that a mistake was made in assuming that the
music
> would keep on developing, that there is a cut off point at which it
becomes a
> traditional art form whose rules must be learned and followed. Do others
feel
> this way?
I still don't think Wynton gets enough attention or credit as a composer and
arranger. His orchestral stuff is very innovative and therefore under
appreciated. ........joe
Joe Finn
>
> great list! Wish it was the national opinion poll. We'd all be giggin'
our
> butts off!
>
> Clif
Thanks Clif! I'm glad you like it. .......joe
Carl Amundson
no one has surpassed or improved his concept. I think it's sad is that no
one has, but it's true. Van Epp's playing still is way beyond what most
guys ever dream of doing. Instead of calling it the past, why don't we
consider it a benchmark that we as jazz guitarist have to live up to and
surpass.
maybe that's just me
"Charlie Robinson" <robins...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020709130519...@mb-fx.aol.com...
Jimmy Bruno
that
> From: robins...@aol.com (Charlie Robinson)
> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
> Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz
> Date: 09 Jul 2002 17:05:19 GMT
> Subject: Re: What is todays modern cutting edge jazz?
>
Jimmy Bruno
> From: robins...@aol.com (Charlie Robinson)
> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
> Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz
> Date: 09 Jul 2002 17:09:54 GMT
> Subject: Re: What is todays modern cutting edge jazz?
>
Jimmy Bruno
hear as well as they think they do
> From: "Carl Amundson" <camu...@tampabay.rr.com>
> Organization: RoadRunner - Tampa Bay
> Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz
> Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 17:43:18 GMT
> Subject: Re: What is todays modern cutting edge jazz?
>
Nazodesu
Amundson <camu...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> Saying that Van Epps is "modern cutting edge", isn't clinging to the past if
> no one has surpassed or improved his concept. I think it's sad is that no
> one has, but it's true. Van Epp's playing still is way beyond what most
> guys ever dream of doing. Instead of calling it the past, why don't we
> consider it a benchmark that we as jazz guitarist have to live up to and
> surpass.
Despite the greatest of Van Epp's and myriad others, "cutting edge" is
generally seen as shift in stylistic distinction. Whether that's good
or bad....
Johnny Asia
>"Charlie Robinson" <robins...@aol.com>
>
>> In Joe's list which he feels to be conservative, names like
>> Cecil Taylor and Dom Minasi appear along with more mainsteam oriented
>players.
>
Dom Minasi raves about our very own Joe Finn!
Of course, Joe's too humble and polite to mention that,
(but I'm not ;) I'm proud to be associated with such
a consummate guitarist and all-around nice guy as Joe.
>I really like what was once called avant garde. In fact I'm part of a group
>called The Woodstock Quantum Ensemble with rmmjg contributor Johnny Asia
>that plays pretty much outside material. It's a gas! We have a concert
>coming up in Kingston, New York on July 20. The group also has some upcoming
>dates at the Knitting Factory.
Also, the Colony Cafe in Woodstock on the 20th, 4-6 ..Kingston 8-11
(I hope the other guys don't gang up on me afterwards, after putting
them throught that, and a WDST radio show the next morning! )
>
>On the other hand I'm also a something of a traditionalist. My guilty
>pleasures include Frank Sinatra >>
Someone who attended one of Sinatra's last concerts
said that Frank announced to the audience ..
."Here's something for you kids out there."
He sang "Kung Fu Fighting",
but he did it his way ;)
+
+
Johnny Asia and the Woodstock Quantum Ensemble
live at the Knitting Factory, NYC:
http://artists.mp3s.com/artist_song/2404/2404397.html
( Kind of like Philip Glass meets Bitches Brew )
Charlie Robinson
Monder, Wolfgang Muthspiel, Pat Metheny (sometimes). Some folks might
add Kurt Rosenwinkel. I've only heard him on one recording so I'll
reserve judgement.
Jaz >>
-------------------------------------
Most of the guys who you have mentioned are great players. But most have been
around since the 70's and early. 80's. While all have original styles,
conceptually I don't think there is much different going on in terms of an
overall movement on the level of bebop or the avant -garde. That is unless you
consider the fact that most have been associated with what was once called
fusion. Is that your message, fusion is the cutting edge? I haven't heard that
much of Rosenwinkle either but he does sound interesting.
Randy Graves
mb
avant guarde, and not strait ahead stuff...
"Charlie Robinson" <robins...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020709145359...@mb-mn.aol.com...
Jimmy Bruno
or being rather advanced harmonically etc. Although th style may be a bit
dated, his music sure isn't
> From: Nazodesu <mus...@adelphia.net>
> Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing
> Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz
> Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 18:19:17 GMT
> Subject: Re: What is todays modern cutting edge jazz?
>
Robert Berger
I just picked up a copy of "Mellow Guitar" (1956 Sony rerelease on CD) on my last
trip to London. Van Eps is indeed a monster, the more you listen the more
realize how much is goin on.
Robert Berger
Jimmy Bruno wrote:
> speaking of cutting edge. What about George VanEps? No one to this day can
> move three or four voices constantly in a tune.
>
> > From: "mb" <nos...@dogelbow.com>
> > Organization: WEBUSENET.com
> > Reply-To: "mb" <nos...@dogelbow.com>
> > Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz
> > Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 23:20:17 -0400
> > Subject: Re: What is todays modern cutting edge jazz?
> >
> > Oops, I hope I didn't offend. I say that because I know that those
> > magazines print stories about the people and companies that purchase
> > advertising space from them, therefore we are seeing who has the money
> > behind them not who is 'cutting edge'. Haven't you ever heard an unknown
> > group or player and said "damn man, that guy is heavier than [INSERT
> > SIGNED/WORLD KNOWN PLAYERS NAME HERE]!" I have. Many times. If you can't
> > now, you should be able to hear through the crap that you are fed by the
> > 'media' in time.
> >
> >
> >
> > "matt hooley" <mho...@mindless.com> wrote in message
> > news:agdj4t$kp3sq$1...@ID-99122.news.dfncis.de...
> >> actually I'm dead serious, why would you think that I was kidding?
> >>
> >> ~mh
> >>
> >> "mb" <nos...@dogelbow.com> wrote in message
> >> news:x3sW8.67114$wj4.5...@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com...
> >>> You *are* kidding, right?
> >>>
> >>> "matt hooley" <mho...@mindless.com> wrote in message
> >>> news:agdi7m$kupql$1...@ID-99122.news.dfncis.de...
> >>>> You know, the concept is simple:
> >>>> Open up the latest jazz mag (Downbeat, JazzTimes, Jazziz etc.)
> >>>> .....those guys, see them?
> >>>>
> >>>> ~mh
> >>>>
> >>>> "Charlie Robinson" <robins...@aol.com> wrote in message
> >>>> news:20020708222623...@mb-cv.aol.com...
> >>>>> In another thread Mark Klienhaut mentioned today's modern cutting
> > edge
> >>>> jazz. I
> >>>>> was wondering what you guys think that might be. What groups or
> >> persons
> >>> do
> >>>> you
> >>>>> feel are on the cutting edge of today's music?
DButler508
I've heard before.
matt hooley
news:2f33c43f.02070...@posting.google.com...
> "matt hooley" <mho...@mindless.com> wrote in message
news:<agdj4t$kp3sq$1...@ID-99122.news.dfncis.de>...
> > actually I'm dead serious, why would you think that I was kidding?
>
> I wish my killfile worked on google...
>
> Matt, do you believe everything you read? If so, since Britany's in
> more magazines than Charlie Hunter does that make her music better? If
> Britany was interviewed in a jazz magazine would that make her a
> cutting edge jazz musician?
>
magazines like Downbeat and JazzTimes are invaluble because they introduce
you to new players you may otherwise not have heard of. Oh, and why did you
say 'Brittany', I thought we were talking about jazz.
~mh
> Regarding cutting edge jazz guitar:
>
> Wayne Krantz, Allen Holdsworth (still, after all these years), Ben
> Monder, Wolfgang Muthspiel, Pat Metheny [edit this out(sometimes)]. Some
folks might
> add Kurt Rosenwinkel. I've only heard him on one recording so I'll
> reserve judgement.
>
what about Joe Diorio, John Scofield (new cd's great btw), and the tons of
guys we all have never heard of but are great none the less.
~mh
> Jaz
Max Leggett
<mho...@mindless.com> wrote:
>"Jack A. Zucker" <j...@jackzucker.com> wrote in message
>news:2f33c43f.02070...@posting.google.com...
>> "matt hooley" <mho...@mindless.com> wrote in message
>news:<agdj4t$kp3sq$1...@ID-99122.news.dfncis.de>...
>> > actually I'm dead serious, why would you think that I was kidding?
>>
>> I wish my killfile worked on google...
>>
>> Matt, do you believe everything you read? If so, since Britany's in
>> more magazines than Charlie Hunter does that make her music better? If
>> Britany was interviewed in a jazz magazine would that make her a
>> cutting edge jazz musician?
>>
>Look, I don't believe them, I see for myself, I was just saying that
>magazines like Downbeat and JazzTimes are invaluble because they introduce
>you to new players you may otherwise not have heard of.
DB and JT are maoinstream jazz magazines. They don't cover much that's
cutting edge at all. If you read the mags, you'd know that.
>Oh, and why did you
>say 'Brittany', I thought we were talking about jazz.
Because you evidently think that if someone gets interviewed in a
magazine that has the word jazz in its title, then that person must be
a jazz musician. So if Britney got interviewd in DB, you're so dim
you'd think she was a jazz singer.
Yet again, Hooey, you talk drivel about something of which you are
completely ignorant. Why don't you go away and stop annoying people?
You have nothing worthwhile to say. Nothing.
mb
To mh: "see, BITCH! LMAO!"
"Max Leggett" <nostin...@naff.orf> wrote in message
news:3d2b7462...@news.sprint.ca...
Jimmy Bruno
matt hooley
news:3d2b7462...@news.sprint.ca...
> <mho...@mindless.com> wrote:
>
> >"Jack A. Zucker" <j...@jackzucker.com> wrote in message
> >news:2f33c43f.02070...@posting.google.com...
> >> "matt hooley" <mho...@mindless.com> wrote in message
> >news:<agdj4t$kp3sq$1...@ID-99122.news.dfncis.de>...
> >> > actually I'm dead serious, why would you think that I was kidding?
> >>
> >> I wish my killfile worked on google...
> >>
> >> Matt, do you believe everything you read? If so, since Britany's in
> >> more magazines than Charlie Hunter does that make her music better? If
> >> Britany was interviewed in a jazz magazine would that make her a
> >> cutting edge jazz musician?
> >>
> >Look, I don't believe them, I see for myself, I was just saying that
> >magazines like Downbeat and JazzTimes are invaluble because they
introduce
> >you to new players you may otherwise not have heard of.
>
> DB and JT are maoinstream jazz magazines. They don't cover much that's
> cutting edge at all. If you read the mags, you'd know that.
>
diverse and dedicated to all different kinds of jazz, not just what is
'popular'. Downbeat is a publication for true jazz fans, a statistically
'unpopular' genre of music.
>
>
> >Oh, and why did you
> >say 'Brittany', I thought we were talking about jazz.
>
> Because you evidently think that if someone gets interviewed in a
> magazine that has the word jazz in its title, then that person must be
> a jazz musician. So if Britney got interviewd in DB, you're so dim
> you'd think she was a jazz singer.
>
As I said "trust us were professionals" doesn't fly with me, I do see for
myself.
>
> Yet again, Hooey, you talk drivel about something of which you are
> completely ignorant. Why don't you go away and stop annoying people?
> You have nothing worthwhile to say. Nothing.
>
I am not completely ignorant about this because I *do* read these magazines.
Why can't my oppinion be 'worthwhile'?
ARGH, it's all the presentation thing, I guess I come across as to heated
even though I am relaxed and breathing deaply.
~mh
>
Scott McLoughlin
There's absolutely nothing wrong with reading Downbeat, or Jazz Times or
JazzIz or Just Jazz Guitar or whatever. It's a GOOD thing to read these
magazines. Reading is good and learning is good. Immerse yourself in the
musical culture and history however possible.
Now, some people might not like these magazines or their editorial policies.
Commercial publications have to balance editorial content (the stories and
reviews and stuff) against their economic viability (advertisements and
stuff). This is true for ABC News just like The New York Times just like
Down Beat. While it's not ideal, it's not such a bad thing. Personally, I
own a business, and I really, really like making lots of money. But we have
to keep in mind that the editorial content of any publication, even an arts
or music publication, WILL be influenced by commercial concerns. It's OK,
but some people have really strong feelings about this, and I think I and
most people can understand these feelings. We wish things were somehow
"purer." Sometimes, I have these feelings about computer/technology
publications, because that's my industry and it affects me personally. I
manage to live with it ;-)
But, but, but - it's not like these magazines are dangerous or anything, and
yes, you are correct that they can expose readers to music they otherwise
would not know about.
Other people might have different ways to learn about new musicians or new
recordings. They might live in NY where there's lots of new live stuff, or
have a large network of friends/musicians or go to other places on the
Internet to learn about new music. These people might prefer these channels
for finding new music (hey, I prefer people's recommendations to most of
what I read - in business we say that "word of mouth is the best
advertising"). With better alternatives ready at hand, these lucky folks
might develop an even lesser opinion of industry publications like Down Beat
due to the above explained economically influenced editorial policies. So
what? Good for them! It's GREAT that they have alternative ways to learn.
But that doesn't mean Down Beat, etc. is bad for other people and they might
forget that.
Until you develop your own alternatives, definitely groove on whatever Jazz
pubs you can find. It will be good for you. You will learn about and listen
to new stuff. You will also slowly develop all sorts of different ways to
learn about good new music that might not show up in national publications.
But you might also still keep reading Down Beat. Why not? I happen to just
LIKE TO READ alot of stuff, and while I get turned onto new music by other
friends who are players or afficionados, I still read these magazines from
time to time. I like to.
As for what is "cutting edge jazz" that is almost as stupid and fruitless a
debate as the "what is jazz" or "is XX jazz" debates. It's good to toss your
favorites into the mix here, but as a categorical question, it's an old and
very silly debate. Won't make you a better player, won't please an audience,
won't affect musical tastes or trends and won't make anyone any money.
My recommendation would be to enjoy what you enjoy. Listen to both old and
new stuff. Play a hell of alot. Oh, and save your energies for the more
useful, technically oriented threads on this newsgroup that will actually
help you both to play better and to enjoy your musical journey more ;-)
Play, learn, listen, read and be full of joy.
--
Scott McLoughlin, Chairman
The Adrenaline Group, Inc.
"matt hooley" <mho...@mindless.com> wrote in message
news:agfrrt$loo02$1...@ID-99122.news.dfncis.de...
Jack A. Zucker
> around since the 70's and early. 80's.
I don't think that's a requirement. Trane was around for a while as
was Wes, Ornette, Miles, etc. Wouldn't you agree that they were always
cutting edge?
Joey Goldstein
things for which he does not seem to be able to calculate the type of
response he will garner he does seem sincere. I think we might want to
cut Matthew a little slack. Just a little.
--
Bob Russell
McLoughlin at scot...@worldnet.att.net wrote on 7/9/02 8:13 PM:
> As for what is "cutting edge jazz" that is almost as stupid and fruitless a
> debate as the "what is jazz" or "is XX jazz" debates. It's good to toss your
> favorites into the mix here, but as a categorical question, it's an old and
> very silly debate. Won't make you a better player, won't please an audience,
> won't affect musical tastes or trends and won't make anyone any money.
>
> My recommendation would be to enjoy what you enjoy. Listen to both old and
> new stuff. Play a hell of alot. Oh, and save your energies for the more
> useful, technically oriented threads on this newsgroup that will actually
> help you both to play better and to enjoy your musical journey more ;-)
>
> Play, learn, listen, read and be full of joy.
Right on, Scott!
-- Bob Russell
http://www.bobrussellguitar.com
Scott McLoughlin
quite ironic, but the newsgroup could use a couple dozen more youthfully
sophmoric but sincere freshly minted would-be players. I wonder what
"rec.music.makers.guitar.playlikejimmypage" would be like, besides larger
;-)
--
Scott McLoughlin, Chairman
The Adrenaline Group, Inc.
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:3D2B7FBD...@nowhere.net...
Bob Russell
nos...@nowhere.net wrote on 7/9/02 8:29 PM:
> Jeez guys. He's not that bad.
Actually, he's quite annoying, but...
> He's young.
That's right. He's young, and I think it's somewhat unseemly for all these
grown men to be beating up on him in a NG. If you find him to be a nuisance,
why not just ignore him, for Pete's sake?
Nazodesu
<nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> And although he says some things for which he does not seem to be
> able to calculate the type of response he will garner he does seem
> sincere.
The reason I find him such an irritation is because he seems inclined
to fish for just that. And successfully.
Nazodesu
<bobrus...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> If you find him to be a nuisance, why not just ignore him, for Pete's
> sake?
Because even with him killfiled, what he says and does is the center
point of most of the discussions. I must admit though, in light of
this the entire ng is getting much easier to process.
Will Sperry
progressive and had good audience commuication.
It's as good a group as I've seen in the last few years.
Will Sperry
mb
back up. Hell, I agree with most of what you say, its just that some of the
other stuff you say is ignorant. But, like I said, don't worry about it.
Just learn.
"matt hooley" <mho...@mindless.com> wrote in message
news:agft2f$lj52a$1...@ID-99122.news.dfncis.de...
Bob Russell
taejo...@yahoo.com wrote on 7/9/02 9:48 PM:
I heard a tune of theirs on the radio not too long ago; I think it was
called "This Never Happened". I really liked it; the slide trumpet work was
incredible!
Max Leggett
<mho...@mindless.com> wrote:
>>
>I read and I know that that is not true, these magazines are extremely
>diverse and dedicated to all different kinds of jazz, not just what is
>'popular'. Downbeat is a publication for true jazz fans, a statistically
>'unpopular' genre of music.
I'll tell you what is annoying about your post, Hooey. Instead of
saying, "Downbeat has some interesting stuff on new musicians," you
say, "The concept is simple. Read Downbeat." Why this constant
sneering and condescending, Hooey? Does it make you feel like a big
shot?
>> Because you evidently think that if someone gets interviewed in a
>> magazine that has the word jazz in its title, then that person must be
>> a jazz musician. So if Britney got interviewd in DB, you're so dim
>> you'd think she was a jazz singer.
>>
>As I said "trust us were professionals" doesn't fly with me, I do see for
>myself.
I have no idea what that means. It's basically illiterate, which may
be why.
>I am not completely ignorant about this because I *do* read these magazines.
>Why can't my oppinion be 'worthwhile'?
I haven't seen any opinions. Opnions are based on knowledge.
>ARGH, it's all the presentation thing, I guess I come across as to heated
>even though I am relaxed and breathing deaply.
You come across as a sneering, condescending jerk. Try following the
golden rule, and address others as you'd like them to adress you. Want
people to show you some respect? Show them some. Want people to heed
your opinions? Don't sneer at theirs.
matt hooley
that's 'sneering', I imagine it in an unoffensive way.
~mh
"Max Leggett" <nostin...@naff.orf> wrote in message
news:3d2b9bc7...@news.sprint.ca...
Charlie Robinson
> << Wynton Marasalis has
> recently taken the stand >>
> -------------------------------
> Marsalis--Sorry Wynton but since Jimmy Bruno's appearance on the scene we
have
> no shame here about these type of things.
>
> Charlie Robinson Jazz Guitarist, >>
<< I Don't understand that at all >>
<< Jimmy Bruno >>
---------------------------------------
Marasalis = a typo----something that you have taken to level of a new art form
here in this group.
Highme2
>progressive and had good audience commuication.
>
>It's as good a group as I've seen in the last few years.
>
I believe two their members, the drummer and bassplayer played on John
Scofiled's "Bump". Can't remeber their names.
Jaime
Charlie Robinson
-----------------------------------
You will get no argument from me on that one. But I'm getting the impression
that you feel that fusion is the foremost example of cutting edge jazz.
Although I don't agree with that you have the support of Miles who felt the
same way. He went so far as to say that those who kept playing the older forms
would eventually end up playing at museums. There are many who felt that Miles
took that particular turn towards fusion just for the bread. Once when I was
playing at an art center I was lucky enough to meet and talk to author Quincy
Troupe who told me that when it came to the music Miles was completely sincere
about what he was doing.
As far as Jimmy's comments:
George Van Epps felt that we had not yet scratched the surface in terms of
musical combinations. His calculations showed that there are 479,001,600
possible linear arrangements of the 12 tones. When applied to the strings of a
guitar that number expands to 344,881,152 (please don't ask me to explain this,
his explanation is on pg. 17 of Vol. 1 Harmonic Mechanisms for the guitar). He
said that it would take 11,036 years to play all of the possible combinations.
So it sounds like someone might be able to get to something new by following
his path as long as they don't end up being a Van Epps imitator. Most guys
don't get through the first 100 pages of his book before they start tearing
their hair out. He seems to be very much into the theoretical aspects guitar
playing.
Kev
> "Charlie Robinson" <robins...@aol.com> wrote
>
> > What groups or persons do you
> > feel are on the cutting edge of today's music?
>
>
> Big Band: Maria Schneider, LCJO
> Boy singer: Kurt Elling
> Girl Singer: Cassandra Wilson
> Pop Oriented Girl Singer with the best arrangements and album covers: Dianna
> Krall
> Vibes: Stefon Harris
> Trombone: Steve Turre
> Clarinet: Don Byron
> Drummer: Jack DeJohnette, Elvin Jones, Tain Watts, Billy Hart
> Bass: Charlie Haden, Dave Holland, Christian McBride, John Patitucci
> Electric bass: Steve Swallow
> Guitar: Jimmy Bruno, Pat Martino, George Benson, Russell Malone, Paul
> Bollenback, Dom Minasi, Howard Alden, Mark Whitfield, Peter Leitch, Peter
> Bernstein, Mark Elf, Jack Wilkins
> Electric guitar: John Scofield, Ben Monder
> Piano: Herbie Hancock, Keith Jarrett, McCoy Tyner, Cecil Taylor, Gonzalo
> Rubalcaba, Brad Mehldau
> Organ: Joey DeFrancesco
> Guilty nostalgic pleasure: John Pizzarelli, Tony Bennett
> Tenor: Joe Lovano, Michael Brecker, Joshua Redman, Sonny Rollins, Wayne
> Shorter, Chris Potter
> Soprano: Dave Liebman, Wayne Shorter, Branford Marsalis
> Alto: Richie Cole
> Trumpet: Tom Harrell, Wynton Marsalis, Wallace Roney, Roy Hargrove, Nicholas
> Payton, Jon Faddis, Ryan Kisor
> Arranger/ Composer: Wynton Marsalis, Carla Bley, Maria Schneider
>
> Call me a square but this is what I listen to.
>
> All apologies to those whose names I spelled wrong. ........joe
> --
> Visit me on the web. www.JoeFinn.net
>
>
>
>
Great list, there!
Some additions I'd make would be:
Trumpet: Dave Douglas, Cuong Vu
Tenor sax: Tim Warfield, Gary Thomas, Ben Schachter, Myron Waldon
Alto: Steve Coleman, Greg Osby, Chris Potter (whom I'd put in the bass clarinet
category, too)
Bass: _Mark Dresser_!, Tarus Mateen, Avishai Cohen
Drums: Ralph Peterson, Brian Blade, Gerry Hemingway, Jeff Ballard, Ari Hoenig
Piano: Jean-Michel Pilc, Orrin Evans, David Kikoski, Uri Caine
That's all that comes to mind. I hate to be a name-dropper, but these are the
cats that are blowing my mind, lately!
-Kevin
Jimmy Bruno
my typing
Jimmy Bruno
guy we all forget about all the time is Vic Juris. Vic is one of my
favorite players. His playing with Leibman is astounding
Mark Kleinhaut
Jimmy Bruno <ji...@jimmybruno.com> wrote:
>I appreciate being named on these lists. it means something to me. A
>guy we all forget about all the time is Vic Juris. Vic is one of my
>favorite players. His playing with Leibman is astounding
I agree. I got to hang and play with Vic recently when Liebman's quartet
came to Maine and it was really a blast. He started showing me these incredible
voicings he said he'd just "discovered". I was lost pretty quickly, but the
lasting impression is that Vic is a guy on a never ending quest to figure
out the guitar's possibilites and that he's still learning new things every
day.
--------------------Mark Kleinhaut
markkl...@hotmail.com
Info and soundclips about:
"Chasing Tales":
http://www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Chasing%20Tales.html
"Amphora":
http://www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Amphora.html
"Secrets of Three": http://www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/SO3.html
Lawson Stone
> Jeez guys. He's not that bad. He's young. And although he says some
> things for which he does not seem to be able to calculate the type of
> response he will garner he does seem sincere. I think we might want to
> cut Matthew a little slack. Just a little.
As one who has stepped in it a few times, made some really bad first
impressions, and then been allowed to redeem himself, I also want to add my
voice to those who want to give Matt a break.
We have nothing to loose. If he really has nothing to offer, he'll drift off
eventually or will be plastered with killfiles; if he has something to
offer, we'll gain from it.
Maybe it's my clergyman alter-ego, (or is that altar ego?) but I want to
extend my hand to him.
************************************************************************
"Not bad, not bad at all," Diotallevi said, "To arrive at the truth through
the painstaking reconstruction of a false text."
************************************************************************
Lawson Stone--Professor of Old Testament, Asbury Theological Seminary
Let's talk about: Jazz Guitar, Cowboy Action Shooting, Horses,the Bible
http://home1.gte.net/res09tg3/index.htm
Nazodesu
Robinson <robins...@aol.com> wrote:
> He said that it would take 11,036 years to play all of the possible
> combinations. So it sounds like someone might be able to get to
> something new by following his path as long as they don't end up
> being a Van Epps imitator. Most guys don't get through the first 100
> pages of his book before they start tearing their hair out. He seems
> to be very much into the theoretical aspects guitar playing.
I'm not sure that the sheer quantity of statistical possiblity really
means anything. There certainly are a lot of possible fingerings on the
guitar, though the arrangment of these is what makes for music.
Van Epps was a master. So was Grant Green with hardly a handful of
chords.
Todd A.
Jimmy Bruno
> From: Nazodesu <mus...@adelphia.net>
> Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing
> Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz
> Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:02:17 GMT
> Subject: Re: What is todays modern cutting edge jazz?
>
Thom_j.
"Jimmy Bruno" <ji...@jimmybruno.com> wrote in message
news:3D2C3C47...@jimmybruno.com...
Charlie Robinson
chords.
>>
------------------------------
In the dicussion with Jack Zucker on the music of Charlie Hunter I asked the
question "is it harmonic complexity that defines something as being jazz?".
What you have said here is exactly the point that I was trying to make.
Charlie Robinson
my typing
>>
<< Jimmy Bruno >>
---------------------------------------
I have that too
Nazodesu
Robinson <robins...@aol.com> wrote:
> << Van Epps was a master. So was Grant Green with hardly a handful of
> chords.
> >>
> << Nazodesu >>
> ------------------------------
> In the dicussion with Jack Zucker on the music of Charlie Hunter I asked the
> question "is it harmonic complexity that defines something as being jazz?".
> What you have said here is exactly the point that I was trying to make.
Well it's still a curious point though, isn't it? Grant Green is still
pretty harmonically complex in a referential way, even though he
doesn't play the chords per se.
In any case complexity, inferred or otherwise is rarely the be all/end
all. Not with jazz, music, art or anything else. Maybe it is with wine.
I always like to cite Smokey Robinson singing "oooh, baby, baby" and
how difficult it is to write an utterly simple lyrical line that truly
works.
Nazodesu
<markkl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I got to hang and play with Vic recently when Liebman's quartet came
> to Maine and it was really a blast. He started showing me these
> incredible voicings he said he'd just "discovered". I was lost pretty
> quickly, but the lasting impression is that Vic is a guy on a never
> ending quest to figure out the guitar's possibilites and that he's
> still learning new things every day.
Care to share? I've been exploring/mapping out a lot of 3-note chords
I hadn't used before and as I did I found them opening up more and more
possibilities.
What's the news on Vic's thing?
Charlie Robinson
the
> question "is it harmonic complexity that defines something as being jazz?".
> What you have said here is exactly the point that I was trying to make.
Well it's still a curious point though, isn't it? Grant Green is still
pretty harmonically complex in a referential way, even though he >>
<< doesn't play the chords per se.
>>
-----------------------------
Yes, but no more so than Hunter.
Bob Russell
mus...@adelphia.net wrote on 7/10/02 4:59 PM:
> I always like to cite Smokey Robinson singing "oooh, baby, baby" and
> how difficult it is to write an utterly simple lyrical line that truly
> works.
And no one, I'll bet you, has ever written a line like that by first
analyzing how they were going to do it.
Max Leggett
<bobrus...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>in article 100720021358598876%mus...@adelphia.net, Nazodesu at
>mus...@adelphia.net wrote on 7/10/02 4:59 PM:
>
>> I always like to cite Smokey Robinson singing "oooh, baby, baby" and
>> how difficult it is to write an utterly simple lyrical line that truly
>> works.
>
>And no one, I'll bet you, has ever written a line like that by first
>analyzing how they were going to do it.
>
Sure they have, Bob. The first thing that lyricist thought was,
"Iambic pentameter? Nah. Too stodgy. A duple monometer? Yes! That's
it!" Then the late night brainstorming sessions to decide how many
Os to put in each oooh. This is not as simple as it looks! [Although I
am.]
Charlie Robinson
>I appreciate being named on these lists. it means something to me. A
>guy we all forget about all the time is Vic Juris. Vic is one of my
>favorite players. His playing with Leibman is astounding
I agree. I got to hang and play with Vic recently when Liebman's quartet
came to Maine and it was really a blast. He started showing me these
incredible
voicings he said he'd just "discovered". I was lost pretty quickly, but the
lasting impression is that Vic is a guy on a never ending quest to figure
out the guitar's possibilites and that he's still learning new things every
day.
----------------------------------
This is the type of thing that I have been looking for. By mentioning Vic's
playing with Liebman you are indicating a style which even Liebman admits has
been in decline over the past 15 to 20 yrs. Avant-garde influenced some call
this chromatic harmony, others like Jack Zucker use the older description
"inside, outside" and still others mostly in the South call it "all over the
place". There seems to be a resurgence of this going on right now as is
evidenced by the recent works of Wayne Shorter and others. Does anyone see this
as a trend or do some view it as a ripple in the status quo that will pass
after a while? (I don't think that it is a waste of time to keep in touch with
the overall scene, our styles are something that we work on every day for our
whole lives. Knowing what is going on helps us to decide which way we would
like to head even if that decision might be to say"I don't care what the rest
of them are doing.")
thomas
>
> My guilty pleasures include Frank Sinatra
How can Sinatra possibly be considered a guilty pleasure?
What are you, masturbating to his movies?
Johnny Asia
wow
Is that a new low at rmmgj?
Has the bar been lowered, is there no shame here anymore?
Here, maybe this music will bring back some decency to rmmgj,
check out John Ashcroft's singing:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/bush/story/0,7369,661458,00.html
Staff cry poetic injustice as singing Ashcroft introduces patriot
games
Julian Borger in Washington Monday March 4, 2002 The Guardian
Since John Ashcroft became US attorney general last year, workers at
the department of justice have become accustomed to his daily prayer
meetings, but some are now drawing the line at having to sing
patriotic songs penned by their idiosyncratic boss.
Mr Ashcroft, a devout Christian and a grittily determined singer, went
public with one of his works last month, when he surprised an audience
at a North Carolina seminary with a rendition of Let the Eagle Soar, a
tribute to America's virtues, which continues: "Like she's never
soared before, from rocky coast to golden shore, let the mighty eagle
soar," and so on for four minutes.
The performance (which can be seen and heard at
http://www.cnn.com/video/us/2002/02/25/ashcroft.sings.wbtv.med.html
was accompanied only by taped music, but Mr Ashcroft's staff are
complaining that printed versions of the song are being distributed at
meetings so that they will be able to join in.
When asked why she opposed the workplace singalong, one of the
department's lawyers said: "Have you heard the song? It really sucks."
+
Johnny Asia and the Woodstock Quantum Ensemble
live at the Knitting Factory, NYC:
http://artists.mp3s.com/artist_song/2404/2404397.html
( Kind of like Philip Glass meets Bitches Brew )
Jack A. Zucker
> > You've got
> > to trust the publications, who else can you trust?
Jesus man...Let me ask you a question then. Do you trust US News and World
Report or Time?
Nevermind, that's over your head. Listen kid, go play yer !@#$ guitar and
quit wasting your time on this newsgroup.
Jaz
--
web: http://www.jackzucker.com
Nazodesu
<pope_ab...@Xyahoo.com> wrote:
> >> My guilty pleasures include Frank Sinatra
> >
> >How can Sinatra possibly be considered a guilty pleasure?
> >What are you, masturbating to his movies?>>
>
> wow
>
> Is that a new low at rmmgj?
>
> Has the bar been lowered, is there no shame here anymore?
I guess that means you have a good reason to not like Sinatra?
He did say Frank, not Nancy.
Thom_j.
on this one.. hahaha :) touche'
"thomas" <tomb...@jhu.edu> wrote in message
news:7d424f23.02071...@posting.google.com...
Nazodesu
Robinson <robins...@aol.com> wrote:
> By mentioning Vic's playing with Liebman you are indicating a style
> which even Liebman admits has been in decline over the past 15 to 20
> yrs. Avant-garde influenced some call this chromatic harmony, others
> like Jack Zucker use the older description "inside, outside" and
> still others mostly in the South call it "all over the place". There
> seems to be a resurgence of this going on right now as is evidenced
> by the recent works of Wayne Shorter and others. Does anyone see this
> as a trend or do some view it as a ripple in the status quo that will
> pass after a while?
Both. The pendulum swings one way, then another. I think a lot of the
avant-garde and "free jazz" in the late 50's and 60's sucked so very
very large (e.g. Ascension by Coltrane and easy candidates like Ayler).
But other practitioners did some really cool, innovative and honest
work (much of Cecil Taylor, Braxton, Dolphy, George Russell). Soon
enough it imploded/exploded and other things were of interest.
But with all styles it seems they never die, they just continue to clog
the pipe. I think outside music is due for another cycle through. As
with all styles, when revisited it gains some maturity, and loses some
of it's angst.
Generally I think that an avant-garde reborn would have a lot more
problems finding venues than it did in the 60's. The climate of
purported conservativism in many things might make it much more
difficult.
One good argument for the Kenny G's, Bee-Gee's and other fatuous
musics--they drive us to try anything to quiet the anguish.
But then this too will pass in time.
Charlie Robinson
> how difficult it is to write an utterly simple lyrical line that truly
> works.
And no one, I'll bet you, has ever written a line like that by first
analyzing how they were going to do it.
-- Bob Russell
http://www.bobrussellguitar.com
-------------------------------------
This is probably true. But if Smoky Robinson had not been on top of what was
happening in his field, R&B music, it is doubtful that he could have written
anything that would have received any attention. The same holds true for
today's jazz musician, isolation from what is going on in the overall scene
puts him in the position of someone who goes to a deserted island to find the
cure for cancer only to return to discover that it was found ten years before.
Tom Walls
robins...@aol.com says...
> This is the type of thing that I have been looking for. By mentioning Vic's
> playing with Liebman you are indicating a style which even Liebman admits has
> been in decline over the past 15 to 20 yrs. Avant-garde influenced some call
> this chromatic harmony, others like Jack Zucker use the older description
> "inside, outside" and still others mostly in the South call it "all over the
> place". There seems to be a resurgence of this going on right now as is
> evidenced by the recent works of Wayne Shorter and others. Does anyone see this
> as a trend or do some view it as a ripple in the status quo that will pass
> after a while?
I think it's a trend. I hope it's a trend. I believe it was Jack who
recently referred to this music as "spontaneous composition", and that's
a concept that's kept my motor purring since I was a teenager(roughly a
thousand years ago).
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
http://www.arts.cornell.edu/zeus/
Mark Kleinhaut
avant garde. They played a lot of material from their new CD "The Unknown
Jobim", and the playing was really pretty inside, though outsidey at the
same time. It sounded all very now moment and fresh, but it was clearly
worked out from years of playing together. Leibman's thing is really about
having a steady working group that establishes deep rapport and commnication.
The gel factor with these guys brings the overall thing to a much higher
level than the sum of the parts.
Naz, regarding Vic's voicings, they pretty much went in one ear and out the
other (although some things stuck and now influence my own explorations).
Bob Russell
robins...@aol.com wrote on 7/11/02 7:30 AM:
> This is probably true. But if Smoky Robinson had not been on top of what was
> happening in his field, R&B music, it is doubtful that he could have written
> anything that would have received any attention. The same holds true for
> today's jazz musician, isolation from what is going on in the overall scene
> puts him in the position of someone who goes to a deserted island to find the
> cure for cancer only to return to discover that it was found ten years before.
Isolation in what sense, Charlie? If you mean "unawareness of what's going
on in the overall scene", then that would depend on the individual jazz
musician, would it not?
Dan Adler
> Care to share? I've been exploring/mapping out a lot of 3-note chords
> I hadn't used before and as I did I found them opening up more and more
> possibilities.
>
> What's the news on Vic's thing?
Naz,
I don't know what he's doing, but he played a chord solo version of
"All The Things You Are" at the Kessel concert, and I couldn't
recognize a single chord! It was 7th harmonic heaven...
Charlie Robinson
on in the overall scene", then that would depend on the individual jazz
musician, would it not?
-- Bob Russell
http://www.bobrussellguitar.com >>
-----------------------------------------
The type of isolation that I'm speaking of is that which self imposed by those
who feel that which is going on in the overall scene does not relate to them
because they have their own thing going. Two of the most original players that
I have met in my life Cecil Taylor and Don Cherry did nothing that was even
remotely like anything that anyone else was doing but both were acutly aware of
what was going on in the general jazz world. Over the years you notice small
movements starting to happen and you ask yourself is there something that I can
learn from this, or do I like what they are doing, or do I want to try this
myself, or you may determine that you think that what you are doing works
better for you, etc. There is still this awareness about what is happening.
Also, a lot of these movements can become large almost overnight. If you are
the type of person who plays a lot of different types of jazz gigs you can
suddenly find yourself on the bandstand with people who are playing that way.
Bob Russell
robins...@aol.com wrote on 7/11/02 10:55 AM:
> << Isolation in what sense, Charlie? If you mean "unawareness of what's going
> on in the overall scene", then that would depend on the individual jazz
> musician, would it not?
>
> -- Bob Russell
> -----------------------------------------
> The type of isolation that I'm speaking of is that which self imposed by those
> who feel that which is going on in the overall scene does not relate to them
> because they have their own thing going. Two of the most original players that
> I have met in my life Cecil Taylor and Don Cherry did nothing that was even
> remotely like anything that anyone else was doing but both were acutly aware
> of
> what was going on in the general jazz world. Over the years you notice small
> movements starting to happen and you ask yourself is there something that I
> can
> learn from this, or do I like what they are doing, or do I want to try this
> myself, or you may determine that you think that what you are doing works
> better for you, etc. There is still this awareness about what is happening.
> Also, a lot of these movements can become large almost overnight. If you are
> the type of person who plays a lot of different types of jazz gigs you can
> suddenly find yourself on the bandstand with people who are playing that way.
>
> Charlie Robinson Jazz Guitarist, Composer
> You can hear me online at: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/robinsonchazz
> or: <A HREF="http://rmmgj.iuma.com">http://rmmgj.iuma.com</A>
Oh, okay. I see what you mean. There are so many ways in which a jazz
musician could possibly be considered "isolated"; I wanted to be sure which
way you were thinking about. :-) Makes sense to me.
Nazodesu
<bobrus...@hotmail.com> wrote:
It also depends on what was in his mind/brain when he went to the
desert island. Because an artist isn't a medical researcher, he's not
looking for a quantifiable "solution".
So if the musician went, wrote some tunes and then came back, what would
be the musical equivalent of "a cure for cancer that was found 10 years
before"? A song he wrote might be "out of date"?
Nazodesu
<markkl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The gel factor with these guys brings the overall thing to a much higher
> level than the sum of the parts.
How long as Juris worked with Leibman?
> Naz, regarding Vic's voicings, they pretty much went in one ear and out the
> other (although some things stuck and now influence my own explorations).
Grrr. Okay, how 'bout the stuff that stuck.. :-)
Thom_j.
Nazodesu
<d...@danadler.com> wrote:
> I don't know what he's doing, but he played a chord solo version of
> "All The Things You Are" at the Kessel concert, and I couldn't
> recognize a single chord! It was 7th harmonic heaven...
Damn, I hope they produce a CD of that event....
Charlie Robinson
avant garde. They played a lot of material from their new CD "The Unknown
Jobim", and the playing was really pretty inside, though outsidey at the
same time. It sounded all very now moment and fresh, but it was clearly
worked out from years of playing together. Leibman's thing is really about
having a steady working group that establishes deep rapport and commnication.
The gel factor with these guys brings the overall thing to a much higher
level than the sum of the parts.
<< having a steady working group that establishes deep rapport and
commnication.
The gel factor with these guys brings the overall thing to a much higher
level than the sum of the parts.
>>
I didn't mean to suggest that Liebman is or has ever been a full blown
Avant-Guardist. But as he has explained himself his approach to chromatic
harmony is influenced by that period. In fact he views what he has been doing
as the next step in the jazz evolutionary chain beyond all of that. I heard him
in Florida with a pickup group and they pushed it to the very limits while
still maintaining the structure of the tune. The description inside/outside
fits very well. If he has since given in and brought it back inside a bit it is
sad because he was producing some very fiery, imaginative music the other way.
It is good hear that he has retained the synergistic quality that has always
been a hallmark of his music. In order to comment further I would have to hear
for myself what he is currently doing.
As far as the playing of Vic Juris is concerned we are in total agreement. I
heard him in NY a few years ago, he definitely a guitarist's guitarist.
thomas
> >
> >How can Sinatra possibly be considered a guilty pleasure?
> >What are you, masturbating to his movies?>>
>
> wow
>
> Is that a new low at rmmgj?
>
> Has the bar been lowered, is there no shame here anymore?
Why be ashamed about liking Sinatra? He is one of the
titans of jazz singing. He practically invented the
notion of the standard songbook. Appreciation of
Sinatra is a reflection of refined taste in classic
jazz. It's certainly nothing to be ashamed of or
guilty about.