ES-175 tone
Hiep Huynh
I love the ES-175 tone, but I don't want to spend the $1800+ for one
(not yet anyway). I do have a Yamaha SA2200 (ES335 clone) fitted with a
Seth Lover on the neck and, to me, it sounds brighter and bolder than an
ES175. Here's what I mean, the two guitar will have a similar tone
when the Yamaha has the tone knob at 0 and the ES175 at 6-7. And by
bolder, I mean that at the same volume (and using the above setting),
the Yamaha accentuates the bottom end more, whereas the 175 is more
subtle and well-rounded.
Can I make my Yamaha semi sound pretty close to a ES175 simply by
duplicating the electronics? Or is it the construction of the wood that
has a more critical impact on the tone?
By the way, the Seth Lover has improved my tone, but I'm still not
satisfied. Is it the Gibson Classic 57 that makes the difference? Has
anyone done a side by side comparison of the Classic 57 vs. Seth Lover
to know the answer?
What about the capacitor and the pot in the tone controls? I'm assuming
that they're .02uf and 500K respectively. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Thanks in advance.
- Hiep
ssm
capacitor and pot values. I suggest you contact Gibson. As for tone, the
wood and construction must have a lot to do with it. To me the 175 sounds
"woody" and warm and I like that about the guitar. I have no experience
with the Yamaha you refer to. However, duplicating the 175's electronics
won't necessarily get you it's sound from the Yamaha, IMHO.
Gil Plantinga
In article <7eu3up$q8q$1...@news.laserlink.net>, ssm <s...@gateway.net>
wrote:
TomLippinc
>(not yet anyway). I do have a Yamaha SA2200 (ES335 clone) fitted with a
>Seth Lover on the neck and, to me, it sounds brighter and bolder than an
>ES175. Here's what I mean, the two guitar will have a similar tone
>when the Yamaha has the tone knob at 0 and the ES175 at 6-7. And by
>bolder, I mean that at the same volume (and using the above setting),
>the Yamaha accentuates the bottom end more, whereas the 175 is more
>subtle and well-rounded.
>
>Can I make my Yamaha semi sound pretty close to a ES175 simply by
>duplicating the electronics? Or is it the construction of the wood that
>has a more critical impact on the tone?
I banged my head against a wall for years trying to make my ES-335 sound more
like a 175. You're right that the 175 has a more full bass response and I'm
pretty sure it has to do with the body construction, not the electronics. The
ES-335 is much more mid-rangy, and I always found that when I rolled the tone
off the highs were attenuated and that mid range just got emphasized even more.
Oddly enough, I've had much more success getting that "smooth round" tone out
of a solid body with the tone rolled off. Check out the tone obtained by such
solid body players as Ted Greene, Ed Bickert, John Stowell, and Lenny Breau.
Tom Lippincott
Bob Valentine
>I play an ES-175 (1962), but I haven't disassembled it to check the
>capacitor and pot values. I suggest you contact Gibson. As for tone, the
>wood and construction must have a lot to do with it. To me the 175 sounds
>"woody" and warm and I like that about the guitar. I have no experience
>with the Yamaha you refer to. However, duplicating the 175's electronics
>won't necessarily get you it's sound from the Yamaha, IMHO.
>
Yes, the wood and construction have an AWFUL lot to do with it. The
335 style guitar is, for the most part, a sold-body close to a Les Paul.
I believe that the wings "acousticize" the string-tone a little bit,
but there are luthiers who would say I'm full of crap.
The 175 is a deep, fully hollow, acoustic archtop guitar with pickups
bolted on. (It may not be the best acoustic in the world, but it has
ALL the properties of an acoustic influencuing the strings).
If you really want a 175 sound, but don't want a 175 price, I would
buy an ES-125 or a similar, fully hollow, "electric spanish" guitar.
If it comes with a metal or plastic saddle bridge, putting a real
ebony bridge gets a LOT more acoustic "chirp" into the tone.
If you want to experiment on your Yamaha, a '59 may be a little
less soft than the Seth Lover, more highs and lows, less mids, which
may translate into a "woodier" sound. I have a Ibanez 335 copy with
a Seth Lover, and it sounds wonderful, but I'm not sure I'm 100%
satisfied, theres something 'undefined' about full chords, the notes
kind of melt together, whereas a real jazz guitar defines the notes.
But again, this has a lot to do with a real jazz guitar being
acoustic. (Regarding my Ibanez, I'm doing amp experiments before
doing another pickup change.).
A P-94 from Gibson may be a nice choice too, this is the
Gibson P90 single coil in a humbucker package. It has a sort of
'honk' to its sound that may emulate the kind of definition I
alluded to above.
This happens to be the pickup on my 125, and if I really want a
jazz sound, the 125 is better than my Ibanez hands down. (It was
also present on lots of old Gibsons and is a sound with real
personality if you can live with hum).
Bob Valentine
PJBMHB
in my tele and now i get a jazzier sound while still having some bite if i need
it. very inexpensive mod. that you can do quite easily if you can solder.
=-) PJ
John Williams
acoustically it sounds very rich - way better than the newer 175 that I
have. I imagine the plywood has dried and become very resonant over the
last 38 years.
None the less, I prefer to use a humbucker-equipped Tele for playing out.
It's way more durable and the tone is pretty pleasant, not to mention way
more flexible.
Gil Plantinga wrote in message
<120419992259549667%gilp...@earthlink.net>...
>Especially if your ES-175, like mine, has the *single* PAF :)
>
Bob Agnew
as the DOD FX40. These can be had for about $45 and give +/- 18 db of
boost/cut in octave bands starting at 200HZ and ending at 6400 Hz. Since
the highest fundamental tone on the guitar is about 1200 Hz. you can cut
everything above 1800 band by 18db. still leaving plenty of boost in the
middle. The only problem might be overloading you amp in which case the
maximum boost will be reduced as much as 18 db. But this still leaves enough
and most amps have a high/low input switch. An attenuator is also an option
between the equalizer and the amp.
IMHO, the secret to getting good jazz tone is to only excite the
fundamental. This equates to using only a neck pickup and striking the notes
right at the neck pickup. Better yet, but harder, is to mentally bisect the
distance between the fret that is being fingered and the bridge. This means
that your hand must move toward the bridge on high frets and toward the neck
on low frets. Using a soft pick such as a tortoise shell (now illegal in
the US ) or your thumb (still legal) helps. I have found that the 59
Humbucker produces the woodiest tone. Chirping notes up slightly, from a
fret below, as well as hammer-on / pull-off combinations, seems to excite a
very "wet" and "woody" jazz sound. Nickel plated flat-wound strings will
also mellow things a bit.
Hiep Huynh <huy...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:371287FD...@bigfoot.com...
>
> I love the ES-175 tone, but I don't want to spend the $1800+ for one
> (not yet anyway). I do have a Yamaha SA2200 (ES335 clone) fitted with a
> Seth Lover on the neck and, to me, it sounds brighter and bolder than an
> ES175. Here's what I mean, the two guitar will have a similar tone
> when the Yamaha has the tone knob at 0 and the ES175 at 6-7. And by
> bolder, I mean that at the same volume (and using the above setting),
> the Yamaha accentuates the bottom end more, whereas the 175 is more
> subtle and well-rounded.
>
> Can I make my Yamaha semi sound pretty close to a ES175 simply by
> duplicating the electronics? Or is it the construction of the wood that
> has a more critical impact on the tone?
>
Hiep Huynh
After reading all your comments, I went to Guitar Center (Dallas) and
tried the Gibson ES175 and the ES335 side by side on a Fender Vibro
King. I wanted to test my theory that the pickup had something to do
with it. Since both models showcase the Gibson Classic 57 pickups, the
differences would only be in the construction. I played the ES175 and
it was clear and bell-like - the pure jazz tone that we're all
accustomed to. I, then, played the ES335 and got the same clear but
bluesy tone that my Yamaha semi puts out.
So, yes, many of you were right. The construction did make a
significant contribution to the tone. I played with the controls on the
ES335 and the amp to get a decent jazz tone, but it wasn't same or
effortless as the ES175. The ES175 just exudes/oozes with the jazz tone
tone tone! I gotta get me one now! Funny how I'd always overlooked it
because it had no acoustic character. Duh! "ES175s are the
quintessential jazz box and it's meant to be amplified" is what I keep
hearing - well, it's sinking in now.
Has anyone compared the Heritage H575s vs Gibson ES175 tonewise? The
H575s are so much prettier and more affordable.
Any comments on the Herb Ellis ES165? Is it nothing more than a ES175
minus the bridge pickup?
Thanks in advance!
Glenn
If you really wanted the ES-175 for it's jazz sound, I would opt for the
165(if you must have a New one) only because it has one pickup.
They(165-175) are the exact same guitar in construction. The neck pickup is
the only one you would want to use anyway to get that sound you want. And
it is also much cheaper too! You can also find older 175's with one pickup
however.
The Heritage 575 will not sound like the 175 because the Heritage version is
made with a solid wood top. Whereas the 175 has always been a
laminated(ply) top.
I have always liked the 175 sound and had one at one time.
You might also look into the Ibanez Pat Metheny model. Not only will you
have better access to the upper register of the guitar. But it seems to
have a similar sound quality of the 175. And the PM model comes with one
pickup only. And cost less than the new 175's. I've not owned one but
every time I've played one at the shop I've really liked this guitar.
And recently in the Musician's Friend www.musiciansfriend.com catalog I saw
a guitar by Epiphone called the Zephyr Regent Archtop that almost exactly
resembled the 175 except for the head stock outline for only $550. You
might want to try one of these too if cost is a factor. It's great that
they have been making all these cheap (price wise) archtops lately.
Anybody have an opinion on these?
Keep Pickin'
Glenn Shotwell
Travis Harrell
Hiep Huynh wrote:
> I want to thank you all for your comments.
>
> After reading all your comments, I went to Guitar Center (Dallas) and
> tried the Gibson ES175 and the ES335 side by side on a Fender Vibro
> King. I wanted to test my theory that the pickup had something to do
> with it. Since both models showcase the Gibson Classic 57 pickups, the
> differences would only be in the construction. I played the ES175 and
> it was clear and bell-like - the pure jazz tone that we're all
> accustomed to. I, then, played the ES335 and got the same clear but
> bluesy tone that my Yamaha semi puts out.
>
> So, yes, many of you were right. The construction did make a
> significant contribution to the tone. I played with the controls on the
> ES335 and the amp to get a decent jazz tone, but it wasn't same or
> effortless as the ES175. The ES175 just exudes/oozes with the jazz tone
> tone tone! I gotta get me one now! Funny how I'd always overlooked it
> because it had no acoustic character. Duh! "ES175s are the
> quintessential jazz box and it's meant to be amplified" is what I keep
> hearing - well, it's sinking in now.
>
> Has anyone compared the Heritage H575s vs Gibson ES175 tonewise? The
> H575s are so much prettier and more affordable.
>
> Any comments on the Herb Ellis ES165? Is it nothing more than a ES175
> minus the bridge pickup?
>
<snip>
This thread strikes me as funny. I've spent the last several days listening
to the genius of Ed Bickert on "Third Floor Richard". IMO, the epitome of a
great straight ahead guitar recording. Nice song selection, beautiful ideas
and GREAT tone. He plays a beat to shit Tele with a humbucker in the neck
position. In case anyone can't tell, I highly recommend this CD. I think
Bickert would also sound great on a Yamaha 335 clone which IMO are fine
guitars. The moral to this story is.......?
Oh well, I understand material lust all too well so I won't cast any more wet
blankets on your fever. You might get with/talk to/email Dave Stephens
(Dallas), he's a Heritage acolyte who posts here regularly and can give you
his slant on Heritage versus Gibson - totally unbiased of course : )
Warning: don't let him talk you into a Webb amp - Dave serves many masters.
--
Travis
Ft. Worth, TX
For email, neuter my return address.
David C. Stephens
Hiep Huynh wrote:
> Has anyone compared the Heritage H575s vs Gibson ES175 tonewise? The
> H575s are so much prettier and more affordable.
You just missed Jay Wolfe at the Greater Southwest Guitar Show. He had several
575s. Anyway, I think that the 175s and 575s sound pretty much alike when new
(if there's an advantage to the Heritage's solid maple top it must become
apparent down the road). Of course, I've never been able to compare them with
exactly the same pickups. Heritages are available with Seymour Duncan pickups
which I believe are as fine as any pickups generally available.
> Any comments on the Herb Ellis ES165? Is it nothing more than a ES175
> minus the bridge pickup?
You might try the Tal Farlow also. For some reason that I don't understand, I
prefer its tone to the 175.
When I was considering special ordering a 575C, I priced it with only the neck
PU. I think this is the way to go, unless you expect to play a lot of rhythm
and use the bridge pickup more than most. I've found with my fairly dark
Fender Seth Lover designed humbucker on my '72 Tele Custom copy that I
actually blend in just a touch of the bridge PU to add a little more "air" to
the tone.
BTW Hiep, do you still have that wonderful Moll? Let me know when you're ready
to sell it.
Dave
David C. Stephens
Travis Harrell wrote:
> Oh well, I understand material lust all too well so I won't cast any more wet
> blankets on your fever. You might get with/talk to/email Dave Stephens
> (Dallas), he's a Heritage acolyte who posts here regularly and can give you
> his slant on Heritage versus Gibson - totally unbiased of course : )
> Warning: don't let him talk you into a Webb amp - Dave serves many masters.
Hiep knows my prejudices all too well. He's still a confirmed tube man, but one
day maybe... One day we almost bought a Heritage Johnny Smith (with Hiep's money
of course), but he found a wonderful Moll archtop that I covet to this day.
Dave
Wolfe Axe
with:
* 16" body *24 3/4" scale
* Venetian (round) cutaway * dot inlays
* black plastic pickguard
* $2,000 list price + $170 case
I really like the guitar, and recommend anyone consider it when wanting a lam.
body ax ala ES175. I am lobbying Heritage at present for a lower price, a
minor bridge change, and binding on the neck.
Anyone wanting to input some design ideas, please e-mail me your thoughts &
I'll call Heritage with our collective thoughts. I don't believe the guitar
will do well in the market because of the tremendous value of the H575, which I
stock with single & dual p/u.
I am suggesting the same bridge as the H575, Schaller tuners, sgl/dual
p/u(s) option, and a lower price (as always). I have the first one now, and
have been playing it. It really sounds good, but given the similar price- I'd
get the H575.
Jay Wolfe
http://www.wolfeguitars.com
Hiep Huynh
Travis Harrell wrote:
> This thread strikes me as funny. I've spent the last several days listening
> to the genius of Ed Bickert on "Third Floor Richard". IMO, the epitome of a
> great straight ahead guitar recording. Nice song selection, beautiful ideas
> and GREAT tone. He plays a beat to shit Tele with a humbucker in the neck
> position. In case anyone can't tell, I highly recommend this CD. I think
> Bickert would also sound great on a Yamaha 335 clone which IMO are fine
> guitars. The moral to this story is.......?
>
> Oh well, I understand material lust all too well so I won't cast any more wet
> blankets on your fever.
You can't extinguish this fever through reasoning, believe me, I'm a
long time
practitioner at material lust-bustin'. This fever will have to run its
course.
I know what the moral is and I subscribe to it. However, searching for
that
pure jazz tone has been my holy grail ever since I got serious into jazz
guitar
(3-4 years ago). I just never paid attention to folks who claimed that
it could
be attained from an ES175. I bought the Yamaha 335 clone (without
trying an ES175)
and assumed that I could tweak it to get a pure jazz tone. When I
failed (I've come
close), I tried different amps, pickups, strings, picks, and my playing
techniques.
It's only recently that I had a chance to try it out (after hearing
someone try it
first) that it became a revelation to me that I have found what I've
been looking
for. It was almost like having a religious experience - could ya
believe it :>?
I still like my Yamaha. It's got an amazing blues tone when coupled
with a Fender
Super Reverb. Mmmm-mmhh such a wonderful searing tone (a la BB King).
- Hiep
Hiep Huynh
"David C. Stephens" wrote:
>
> Travis Harrell wrote:
>
> > Oh well, I understand material lust all too well so I won't cast any more wet
> > blankets on your fever. You might get with/talk to/email Dave Stephens
> > (Dallas), he's a Heritage acolyte who posts here regularly and can give you
> > his slant on Heritage versus Gibson - totally unbiased of course : )
> > Warning: don't let him talk you into a Webb amp - Dave serves many masters.
>
> Hiep knows my prejudices all too well. He's still a confirmed tube man, but one
> day maybe... One day we almost bought a Heritage Johnny Smith (with Hiep's money
> of course), but he found a wonderful Moll archtop that I covet to this day.
>
> Dave
Tube is king!!! They're noisy and hot, but they sound good.
I still enjoy my Moll archtop. The fact that you covet it makes it even
more valuable to me :). Thank you much, for pointing it out to me at
the show.
BTW, I finally found a solution to the buzzing low E string. Through
trial and error, I discovered that the nut groove was quite wide and
really too deep (what do you expect from a prototype?). This caused
strings less than .56 gauge to buzz frantically on the 1st fret at
medium action. Moll's solution was to raise the action via the truss
rod - I tried this and feared that the neck would break, figuratively
speaking, when the buzz finally went away. Raising the bridge didn't
help either. Then I recently got the idea to partially fill the nut
groove with epoxy - just a small dab did the trick. It now plays
beautifully with TI Bebop 0.13-0.53 strings on it at medium action.
- Hiep
Hiep Huynh
Glenn wrote:
>
> Hiep,
>
> If you really wanted the ES-175 for it's jazz sound, I would opt for the
> 165(if you must have a New one) only because it has one pickup.
> They(165-175) are the exact same guitar in construction. The neck pickup is
> the only one you would want to use anyway to get that sound you want. And
> it is also much cheaper too! You can also find older 175's with one pickup
> however.
>
> The Heritage 575 will not sound like the 175 because the Heritage version is
> made with a solid wood top. Whereas the 175 has always been a
> laminated(ply) top.
>
I tried a beautiful Heritage 575 after work today. And you're
absolutely right,
it doesn't sound quite like an ES175. To me, the H575 was similar yet
it had
an overbearing acoustic character in the tone (which I think the solid
carved top
had something to do with). I played around with the controls and I
still couldn't
get a decent facsimile of the ES175 tone. I didn't like it since I
already have
a Moll archtop with a SUPERB acoustic sound <wink> <wink>. [David
Stephens, I hope
you see me as a friend and not an obstacle :)].
- Hiep
David C. Stephens
Hiep Huynh wrote:
I couldn't be happier for you. I'm just glad that I was there to see the deal of
the century.
Dave
Ignore my green color :-)
David C. Stephens
Hiep Huynh wrote:
> "David C. Stephens" wrote:
> >
> > Travis Harrell wrote:
> >
> > > Oh well, I understand material lust all too well so I won't cast any more wet
> > > blankets on your fever. You might get with/talk to/email Dave Stephens
> > > (Dallas), he's a Heritage acolyte who posts here regularly and can give you
> > > his slant on Heritage versus Gibson - totally unbiased of course : )
> > > Warning: don't let him talk you into a Webb amp - Dave serves many masters.
> >
> > Hiep knows my prejudices all too well. He's still a confirmed tube man, but one
> > day maybe... One day we almost bought a Heritage Johnny Smith (with Hiep's money
> > of course), but he found a wonderful Moll archtop that I covet to this day.
> >
> > Dave
>
> Tube is king!!! They're noisy and hot, but they sound good.
See, I told you he's crazy... :-)
> I still enjoy my Moll archtop. The fact that you covet it makes it even
> more valuable to me :). Thank you much, for pointing it out to me at
> the show.
You're very welcome.
> BTW, I finally found a solution to the buzzing low E string. Through
> trial and error, I discovered that the nut groove was quite wide and
> really too deep (what do you expect from a prototype?). This caused
> strings less than .56 gauge to buzz frantically on the 1st fret at
> medium action. Moll's solution was to raise the action via the truss
> rod - I tried this and feared that the neck would break, figuratively
> speaking, when the buzz finally went away. Raising the bridge didn't
> help either. Then I recently got the idea to partially fill the nut
> groove with epoxy - just a small dab did the trick. It now plays
> beautifully with TI Bebop 0.13-0.53 strings on it at medium action.
Moll probably cut it for a .056 string. The TIs are a little lighter than some other
..013s. I bet it sounds great with those strings, now that you've got the rattle
licked.
Dave
Stan Gosnell
>BTW, I finally found a solution to the buzzing low E string. Through
>trial and error, I discovered that the nut groove was quite wide and
>really too deep (what do you expect from a prototype?). This caused
>strings less than .56 gauge to buzz frantically on the 1st fret at
>medium action. Moll's solution was to raise the action via the truss
>rod - I tried this and feared that the neck would break, figuratively
>speaking, when the buzz finally went away. Raising the bridge didn't
>help either. Then I recently got the idea to partially fill the nut
>groove with epoxy - just a small dab did the trick. It now plays
>beautifully with TI Bebop 0.13-0.53 strings on it at medium action.
The usual fix for nuts is cyanoacrylate glue (aka crazy glue) mixed
with baking soda. Put the soda on first, then apply the glue, & the
result will be at least as hard as the nut, in most cases (some nut
material is very hard). It's difficult to control the height, so you
usually need to recut the nut slot.