Solo Scales Over Jobim's How Insensitive
Paul
So far I'm using:
D Aeolian >> Dm9
D harmonic minor >> C# dim
C Dorian >> Cm6
B Locrian >> G7/B (G mixolydian starting on B)
Bb Ionian >> BbM7, EbM7
D harmonic minor >> Em7b5, A7b9, Dm7
D Alternate? >> Db13
C Dorian >> Cm7
B Dim >> Bdim
Bb Lydian >> BbM7
D harmonic minor >> Em7b5, A7, Dm7
D Alternate? >> Db7
C Dorian >> Cm9, F7
B Dorian >> Bm7, E7b9
Bb Lydian >> BbM7
D harmonic minor >> A7, Dm7
The Db passing chord goes by so
quickly, it's actually a good time to take a
break! But I tried the D Alt scale, and it
sounded good. If anyone can suggest something
better on any of these scales, please do.
Oh, and for all you "Play-by-Ear-Don't-Think
-So-Much" types, you can actually use just
D harmonic minor for the whole song! Not
completely unbelievable, because as someone
on a jazz blog pointed out, the melody itself
kinda "ignores" the chord progression (similar
to Jobim's One Note Samba).
Either way, it helps to play chromatically
on this song, especially adding the flatted 7th
(C natural) to the D harm minor.
paul s
> D harmonic minor >> C# dim
> C Dorian >> Cm6
> Bb Ionian / Bb lydian >> BbM
Eb lydian >>, EbM7/
> D harmonic minor >> Em7b5, A7b9, Dm7
> C Dorian >> Cm7
> B Dim >> Bdim
> Bb Lydian >> BbM7
> D harmonic minor >> Em7b5, A7, Dm7
> C Dorian >> Cm9, F7
> B Dorian >> Bm7,
> Bb Lydian >> BbM7
> D harmonic minor >> A7, Dm7
>
> The Db passing chord goes by so
> quickly, it's actually a good time to take a
> break! But I tried the D Alt scale, and it
> sounded good. If anyone can suggest something
> better on any of these scales, please do.
>
>
> on this song, especially adding the flatted 7th
> (C natural) to the D harm minor.
I entered a few that you might experiment with, hope this helps,
Paul S
Nate Najar
wow..... I think you're way overthinking it.
and the melody very much follows the chords very well.
everything you propose does indeed work though.
N
Tim McNamara
<7a41504d-ff53-4218...@r40g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
Paul <quill...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So far I'm using:
>
> D Aeolian >> Dm9
> D harmonic minor >> C# dim
> C Dorian >> Cm6
> B Locrian >> G7/B (G mixolydian starting on B)
> Bb Ionian >> BbM7, EbM7
> D harmonic minor >> Em7b5, A7b9, Dm7
> D Alternate? >> Db13
> C Dorian >> Cm7
> B Dim >> Bdim
> Bb Lydian >> BbM7
> D harmonic minor >> Em7b5, A7, Dm7
> D Alternate? >> Db7
> C Dorian >> Cm9, F7
> B Dorian >> Bm7, E7b9
> Bb Lydian >> BbM7
> D harmonic minor >> A7, Dm7
Wow, that's much more complicated than I could manage to think about
while still attempting to play a phrase.
I think of the Dmin7 as the iii of Bb and play most of the song in Bb
major with a few switches in tonal center- mostly up or down a half step
seems to cover it- and some chromatic alterations to accommodate the
harmony here and that. My brain isn't fast enough to use a more
complicated approach than this.
It's also remarkable how a high F ostinato works over almost every chord
in the song.
--
Gotta make it somehow on the dreams you still believe.
rpjazzguitar
> So far I'm using:
>
> D Aeolian >> Dm9
> D harmonic minor >> C# dim
> C Dorian >> Cm6
> B Locrian >> G7/B (G mixolydian starting on B)
> Bb Ionian >> BbM7, EbM7
> D harmonic minor >> Em7b5, A7b9, Dm7
> D Alternate? >> Db13
> C Dorian >> Cm7
> B Dim >> Bdim
> Bb Lydian >> BbM7
> D harmonic minor >> Em7b5, A7, Dm7
> D Alternate? >> Db7
> C Dorian >> Cm9, F7
> B Dorian >> Bm7, E7b9
> Bb Lydian >> BbM7
> D harmonic minor >> A7, Dm7
I'm not so sure about that last B dorian. What about A harmonic
minor? C instead of C#.
ScotGormley
It can be helpful to think in those terms. I also would add something
I've heard Rick Peckham say many times: "Short harmonic rhythm, chord
tones; long harmonic rhythm, chord scales." It's also a good idea to
map out the 3rds and 7ths so you can get some voice leading happening
in your melodies.
Paul
Well, that's why I included a "Play-by-Ear"
alternative, which is D harmonic minor for the
whole song. But more options is always
more interesting than less.
It's actually not too complicated if you
run through it. It's really only D HM, C Dorian,
B Locrian, B Dorian, and Bb Ionian, mainly.
But it's good to know you can always
fall back on D HM, when you get lost (which
never happens, right? haha ;)
Mr Maj6th
I don't know anyone who thinks that way while their playing, it is
purely academic. It is like dissecting a frog, you might know exactly
what makes it jump but the beauty of the act escapes you.
Maj6th
David J. Littleboy
>>
>>Wow, that's much more complicated than I could manage to think about
>>while still attempting to play a phrase.
>>
> I don't know anyone who thinks that way while their playing, it is
> purely academic. It is like dissecting a frog, you might know exactly
> what makes it jump but the beauty of the act escapes you.
That was my reaction to the original post also. But then I pulled out the
tune and found that it has a lot of relatively long things: two bars of X,
then two bars of Y. Now to a certain extent, Paul did go overboard with the
Greek names (C major sounds a lot less pretentious that C Ionian), but when
you play over those chords, even if you are a rank beginner such as myself,
you'll be doing a lot of those things even if you've forgotten (or never
bothered to learn) the names...
Now the original post may be technically wrong, or have some bad ideas in
it. But it's not as "insanely hairy" as it looks at first glance.
--
David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
andy-uk
Joey Goldstein
>
> So far I'm using:
>
> D Aeolian>> Dm9
> D harmonic minor>> C# dim
Add the note C nat to that pitch collection too, for an 8-note scale.
I think of this as really being A7b9/C# (V7 in the key):
A Bb C C# (D) E F G
Leave the D out and you're get back to a 7-note scale that happens to be
somewhat interesting in that there are no avoid notes.
> C Dorian>> Cm6
> B Locrian>> G7/B (G mixolydian starting on B)
> Bb Ionian>> BbM7, EbM7
My defaults are Bb lyd and Eb lyd.
The primary key of the tune is D minor.
Bbmaj7 is bVImaj7 and the E nat of the Bb lyd scale is a diatonic tone
in D minor.
So, the key feeling here, even though these two chords look somewhat
like Imaj7 and IVmaj7, is not suddenly Bb major.
> D harmonic minor>> Em7b5, A7b9, Dm7
I'd use D nat minor over Em7b5 and Dm7.
> D Alternate?>> Db13
If you're suggesting the D altered dominant scale over Db7, no, that is
doesn't really work.
Maybe you meant Db altered? That kinda works but it's not the sound that
most people would play here.
The norm here is Db lydian b7, aka lydian dominant.
Dd Eb F G Ab Bb Cb
If you start this pitch collection on G then it's enharmonically
equivalent to the G altered dominant scale. Maybe that's what you meant.
Both Db lyd b7 and G altered are modes of Ab melodic minor.
> C Dorian>> Cm7
> B Dim>> Bdim
> Bb Lydian>> BbM7
> D harmonic minor>> Em7b5, A7, Dm7
> D Alternate?>> Db7
> C Dorian>> Cm9, F7
> B Dorian>> Bm7, E7b9
> Bb Lydian>> BbM7
> D harmonic minor>> A7, Dm7
>
>
> The Db passing chord goes by so
> quickly, it's actually a good time to take a
> break! But I tried the D Alt scale, and it
> sounded good. If anyone can suggest something
> better on any of these scales, please do.
>
> Oh, and for all you "Play-by-Ear-Don't-Think
> -So-Much" types, you can actually use just
> D harmonic minor for the whole song! Not
> completely unbelievable, because as someone
> on a jazz blog pointed out, the melody itself
> kinda "ignores" the chord progression (similar
> to Jobim's One Note Samba).
>
> Either way, it helps to play chromatically
> on this song, especially adding the flatted 7th
> (C natural) to the D harm minor.
--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
<http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/AudioClips/audio.htm>
joegold AT primus DOT ca
Joey Goldstein
BTW
If I was looking for one scale to use through the entire progression
it'd be D natural minor, aka F major.
I might slip in a C# on the A7 chords, but C nat will work better on
most of the other chords, and C nat sounds great on A7 too.
Joey Goldstein
I do.
I think that way when playing.
Now you know someone too.
> it is
> purely academic.
How could you possibly know whether that's true or not unless you too
have developed the ability to think that way?
I think that way when *I'm* playing, and I don't think of my playing as
being "academic".
> It is like dissecting a frog, you might know exactly
> what makes it jump but the beauty of the act escapes you.
Beauty is in the eye of the vivisectionist and in this case is totally
dependant on the skill or lack of it of the vivisectionist.
> Maj6th
sheetsofsound
> On 12/16/2010 5:11 AM, Mr Maj6th wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 22:34:30 -0600, Tim McNamara
> > <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
> >> In article
> >> Paul<quiller...@gmail.com> wrote:
Agreed. Academic is only true while studying. Once it becomes part of
your "second nature" it's no longer academic. When folks say an
approach is academic it usually means that it differs from their way
of looking at things. Neither way is "correct". Wes and Benson
approach it very different and their results are amazing but lots of
other folks like abercrombie and kreisberg approach it from an
analytical point of view and their results are amazing too.
Paul K
>
> Beauty is in the eye of the vivisectionist and in this case is totally
> dependant on the skill or lack of it of the vivisectionist.
I kinda like how this sentence stands out on its own.
--
Paul K
http://www.soundclick.com/paulkirk
http://www.youtube.com/user/fibrationboy
http://mypage.iu.edu/~pkirk/
Tim McNamara
<84e003ca-9642-4822...@i17g2000vbq.googlegroups.com>,
sheetsofsound <jackz...@gmail.com> wrote:
That's one of the things that makes jazz so interesting- there are so
many ways to approach playing it. And each approach moves the player
towards something unique that the other approach may not do for them.
Ideally, we'd each be able to integrate all those approaches.
Paul
> On 12/15/2010 9:04 PM, Paul wrote:
>
>
>
> > So far I'm using:
>
> > D Aeolian>> Dm9
> > D harmonic minor>> C# dim
>
> Add the note C nat to that pitch collection too, for an 8-note scale.
> I think of this as really being A7b9/C# (V7 in the key):
> A Bb C C# (D) E F G
> Leave the D out and you're get back to a 7-note scale that happens to be
> somewhat interesting in that there are no avoid notes.
>
I was used to using the D HM scale strictly, and
playing lots of phrases with C# going to D. But as you
have said, it's tons of fun to go from the flatted 7th (C
natural) to the M7th (C#), and leave the D completely
out.
So with the D in the scale, the D is considered
an "avoid" note?
> > C Dorian>> Cm6
> > B Locrian>> G7/B (G mixolydian starting on B)
> > Bb Ionian>> BbM7, EbM7
>
> My defaults are Bb lyd and Eb lyd.
> The primary key of the tune is D minor.
> Bbmaj7 is bVImaj7 and the E nat of the Bb lyd scale is a diatonic tone
> in D minor.
> So, the key feeling here, even though these two chords look somewhat
> like Imaj7 and IVmaj7, is not suddenly Bb major.
>
Interesting. It's only one note for one chord, but it can
make a subtle difference.
Sounds like part of the idea is to not flat the 9th of the D
unless you have to, like when the EbM7 arrives. It's a wonderful
tonal shift when this chord is played! Jobim was a genius.
> > D harmonic minor>> Em7b5, A7b9, Dm7
>
> I'd use D nat minor over Em7b5 and Dm7.
>
Ok, good idea. Thanks.
> > D Alternate?>> Db13
>
> If you're suggesting the D altered dominant scale over Db7, no, that is
> doesn't really work.
> Maybe you meant Db altered? That kinda works but it's not the sound that
> most people would play here.
> The norm here is Db lydian b7, aka lydian dominant.
> Dd Eb F G Ab Bb Cb
> If you start this pitch collection on G then it's enharmonically
> equivalent to the G altered dominant scale. Maybe that's what you meant.
> Both Db lyd b7 and G altered are modes of Ab melodic minor.
>
I was actually able to make the D Alt sound pretty good over
this change, because Db happens so quickly, and the D Alt scale
fits well into part of the C Dorian.
But I wanna learn the "traditional" methods.
This is the part I skipped in Joe Bell and Peter
Pickow's Jazz Guitar book! Ok, so it looks like
any sort of SubV "chromatic resolution" calls for the
Lydian b7 scale, right?
Paul
Either way, I would chromaticize the hell out of
any one scale that I would use, so in the end, I'd end
up playing lot's of the same stuff....
Paul
Yeah, this stuff only looks a bit complex on paper.
When I'm playing, to some degree it's all just a bunch
of shifting scale shapes, which I have memorized beforehand.
It's kinda like writing a software program, but when
you finish your homework and use the program, you don't
really have to think about it anymore.
Believe me, I would love for this stuff to be simpler
and easier. Like many guitarists, I originally come from
a Blues, Rock, and Folk background, so simple can
be great.
But I'm finding for this style of music, a bit of theory
work beforehand has really accentuated my natural
"play-by-ear" abilities. It's like being in a completely
different harmonic and tonal world.
Paul
Oh, I forgot a very important scale: D Blues!!
Throw it in there occasionally!
thomas
>
> How could you possibly know whether that's true or not unless you too
> have developed the ability to think that way?
> I think that way when *I'm* playing, and I don't think of my playing as
> being "academic".
You sound so killing, man. But you also have the ear and the chord
tones part down already, and so for you the chord scale theory is a
useful add-on.
OTOH, I hear a number of guitarists who use chord/scale theory in lieu
of getting their ear and chord tone playing together, and you can tell
it just by listening to them. Horn players can cover those
deficiencies up with virtuoso chops, but a lot of intermediate
guitarists cannot.
thomas
The traditional method is to play variations on the song's melody, and/
or decorate the chord tones. Chord/scale theory is a more recent
development.
Joey Goldstein
> On Dec 16, 9:44 am, Joey Goldstein<nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>> On 12/15/2010 9:04 PM, Paul wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> So far I'm using:
>>
>>> D Aeolian>> Dm9
>>> D harmonic minor>> C# dim
>>
>> Add the note C nat to that pitch collection too, for an 8-note scale.
>> I think of this as really being A7b9/C# (V7 in the key):
>> A Bb C C# (D) E F G
>> Leave the D out and you're get back to a 7-note scale that happens to be
>> somewhat interesting in that there are no avoid notes.
>>
>
> I was used to using the D HM scale strictly, and
> playing lots of phrases with C# going to D. But as you
> have said, it's tons of fun to go from the flatted 7th (C
> natural) to the M7th (C#), and leave the D completely
> out.
>
> So with the D in the scale, the D is considered
> an "avoid" note?
On that chord the D nat will have a marked tendency to resolve to C#.
None of the other tones in that scale, on that chord, have as strong a
need to resolve.
We call them "avoid note", but that doesn't mean that it needs to be
avoided.
What it means that it needs to be treated more carefully than the other
notes within the chord-scale-relationship.
>>> C Dorian>> Cm6
>>> B Locrian>> G7/B (G mixolydian starting on B)
>>> Bb Ionian>> BbM7, EbM7
>>
>> My defaults are Bb lyd and Eb lyd.
>> The primary key of the tune is D minor.
>> Bbmaj7 is bVImaj7 and the E nat of the Bb lyd scale is a diatonic tone
>> in D minor.
>> So, the key feeling here, even though these two chords look somewhat
>> like Imaj7 and IVmaj7, is not suddenly Bb major.
>>
>
> Interesting. It's only one note for one chord, but it can
> make a subtle difference.
>
> Sounds like part of the idea is to not flat the 9th of the D
> unless you have to, like when the EbM7 arrives.
That's kind of it.
We people who have grown up with Western European Art Music all around
us have a built-in cultural affinity now for music based off of the
diatonic scale and for music that is based on the notions of Tonality
(i.e. the system of major and minor keys) that were espoused in the
music of the classical composers.
Some folks don't like to admit it but jazz harmony, except for a few
novel devices, falls mostly under the style of WEAM-style harmony.
A "diatonic scale" is defined as any scale with 5 whole tones and 2
semitones in which the two semitones are as far apart as possible.
So Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian and Locrian are
all diatonic scales.
People tend to refer to harmonic minor and melodic minor as "diatonic
scales" too, but I don't see it that way.
To complicate things further, the expression "diatonic to" has an even
looser meaning. "Diatonic to" tends to mean "belonging to a scale", any
scale. Eg. "That chord is diatonic to the diminished scale".
Etc.
At any rate...
Music that is almost totally or almost totally based on one diatonic
scale for the entire piece is generally speaking very easy for most
Westerners to hear because that sound is the most familiar sound we are
routinely exposed to.
It became very common among classical composers to mix up major keys and
minor keys in a technique that is usually called Mixed Modality.
So, music written in major keys routinely borrowed notes and chords from
the parallel minor key.
Music in minor keys sometimes borrows from the parallel major key too,
but less often.
Since classical minor key harmony is based on 3 scales: natural minor,
harmonic minor and melodic minor; we can see that the tones used to
create melodies and chords in a classical-era mixed mode style will be:
1 2 b3 3 4 5 b6 6 b7 7
(Since dorian is kind of a mix of nat min and mel min we often see
chords and/or melodic phrases, that contain S6 and Sb7 simultaneously
too. I.e. We see chords borrowed from the parallel dorian scale too in
traditional harmony.)
But note the absence of scale degrees b2 and #4 or b5.
Classical era music did incorporate scale degree b2 in what they called
"the Neapolitan chord" which was a bIImaj chord, usually in 1st inversion.
The Neapolitan chord has to be seen as a borrowed chord from the
parallel phrygian scale, but to the best of my knowledge this is the
only chord they ever borrowed from outside of the maj, nat min, harm min
and mel min scales in that music.
Consequently, you'll probably find that Sb2 is a little bit harder to
learn to "hear" than the other modal variants.
Note:
In modern key-based music you may see borrowing from lydian and even
locrian as well.
Summary:
Classical era modal borrowing was limnited to:
Ionian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Harm Min, Mel Min, Dorian, plus the
Neapolitan chord.
Modern modal borrowing involves:
Ionian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Harm Min, Mel Min, Dorian, Phrygian and
Lydian (and sometimes Locrian).
> It's a wonderful
> tonal shift when this chord is played! Jobim was a genius.
>
>
>
>>> D harmonic minor>> Em7b5, A7b9, Dm7
>>
>> I'd use D nat minor over Em7b5 and Dm7.
>>
>
> Ok, good idea. Thanks.
>
>
>>> D Alternate?>> Db13
>>
>> If you're suggesting the D altered dominant scale over Db7, no, that is
>> doesn't really work.
>> Maybe you meant Db altered? That kinda works but it's not the sound that
>> most people would play here.
>> The norm here is Db lydian b7, aka lydian dominant.
>> Dd Eb F G Ab Bb Cb
>> If you start this pitch collection on G then it's enharmonically
>> equivalent to the G altered dominant scale. Maybe that's what you meant.
>> Both Db lyd b7 and G altered are modes of Ab melodic minor.
>>
>
> I was actually able to make the D Alt sound pretty good over
> this change,
Really?
The D altered dominant scale is the 7th mode or rotation of Eb melodic
minor:
D Eb F Gb Ab Bb C D
On Db7, that C nat is pretty rough if you're not careful.
> because Db happens so quickly, and the D Alt scale
> fits well into part of the C Dorian.
I don't see the relationship between C dorian and D altered, and if I
did I'm not sure I'd see its relevance to what we're talking about.
>
> But I wanna learn the "traditional" methods.
>
> This is the part I skipped in Joe Bell and Peter
> Pickow's Jazz Guitar book!
I don't know that book.
But I'd mistrust any theory book that's talking just about guitar or
worse "guitar-theory".
The best book I'm aware of at the moment on this subject is The
Chord-Scale Theory And Jazz Harmony by Nettles & Graff.
> Ok, so it looks like
> any sort of SubV "chromatic resolution" calls for the
> Lydian b7 scale, right?
Generally speaking, yes, that's true.
V7/V (D7 going to G7) and V7/IV (C7 going to F7) usually take the
mixolydian scale because the their target chords are major chords.
V7/IIm (A7 going to Dm), V7/IIIm (B7 going to Em) and V7/VIm (E7 going
to Am) usually take the 5th mode of harmonic minor, aka mixolydian b2b6.
And usually it's a good idea to add the #2 in there as well for an
8-tone scale.
But *all* the SubV7 chords normally take the lydian b7 scale:
SubV7 (Db7 going to C), SubV7/IIm (Eb7 going to Dm) , SubV7/IIIm (F7
going to Em), SubV7/IV (Gb7 going to F), SubV7/V (Ab7 going to G7),
SubV7/VIm (Bb7 going to Am).
These are only defaults though.
There are lots of other possible chord-scale-relationships a player can
decide to work from.
Joey Goldstein
That's a good point that a lot of the people who are down on the whole
chord-scale thing never seem to be fully aware of.
I.e.
Just because my main focus is on, say aeolian, it doesn't mean that the
other 5-notes of the chromatic scale can not be used as well.
Usually, these notes will be used as approach notes back into the notes
of the scale that is the main focus.
To my way of thinking there is always some sort of a tonal hierarchy of
strongest to weakest notes on any given change, and I like to be as
aware as possible of all of the relationships involved between these
note choices and the possible voicings of the chord.
Joey Goldstein
I still don't understand why so many people seem to think that if you
understand one thing you should understand everything.
If you study one way, that's the only thing you need to study.
If you master one thing, it's the only thing you need to master.
Etc., etc. etc.
It doesn't work that way.
I first started playing by trying to apply the chord-scale theory I
learned at Berklee.
That worked great on tunes with a static harmonic rhythm, like So What,
but not so great on bebop tunes.
On bebop tunes I learned that I had to be more focused on chord-tones.
Then, when I wanted to learn to play better on either type of harmonic
rhythm I learned how to do other things.
I'm still learning how to do other things.
No one thing is "IT".
My ear has to "get around" all sorts of things in order to be able to
improvise decent sounding music.
pmfan57
I can never read "you sound so killing, man" again without hearing it
in that jazz robot voice from the jazz robot series of videos on
youtube.
(But Joey does sound great.)
Paul
Yes, the B Dorian sounds awkward over the E7b9, as
the b9 is missing.
E Altered is much better. THANKS!!!!
Paul
That would be the C natural we talked about for the
D HM scale, but now over the A7b9 (root begins on A).
There's that wonderful Minor/Major ambiguity again!
> But *all* the SubV7 chords normally take the lydian b7 scale:
> SubV7 (Db7 going to C), SubV7/IIm (Eb7 going to Dm) , SubV7/IIIm (F7
> going to Em), SubV7/IV (Gb7 going to F), SubV7/V (Ab7 going to G7),
> SubV7/VIm (Bb7 going to Am).
>
> These are only defaults though.
> There are lots of other possible chord-scale-relationships a player can
> decide to work from.
>
So if I'm looking at the lead sheet of a song
I'm not familiar with, and I see a dominant 7th chord
resolving to pretty much any chord 1/2 step below it,
the Lydian b7 scale would most likely fit?
The Bell and Pickow book says that they
need to be "unaltered (no b5 of #9s or anything like
that)", for the Lydian b7 scale to apply.
Phil
>
> - Show quoted text -
That's funny, Joey. I almost, tongue in cheek, replied to the
original post with "D minor pentatonic with an occasional C#".
Joey Goldstein
>
> So if I'm looking at the lead sheet of a song
> I'm not familiar with, and I see a dominant 7th chord
> resolving to pretty much any chord 1/2 step below it,
> the Lydian b7 scale would most likely fit?
Most likely.
> The Bell and Pickow book says that they
> need to be "unaltered (no b5 of #9s or anything like
> that)", for the Lydian b7 scale to apply.
Well the lydian b7 scale has a #4.
And #4 is enharmonic to b5.
The extended chord that comes out of the lyd b7 scale is: dom7(9,#11,13).
Hint:
Lyd b7 on a tritone sub is the same scale as the altered scale on the
original dom7 chord.
Eg. Db7 is the tritone sub for G7.
Db lyd b7 is the 5th mode of Ab mel minor.
G altered is the 7th mode of Ab mel min.
Db7(9,#11,13) is like G7alt/Db and visa versa.
And they're both also very much like Abm6(9,11,maj7) with either G or Db
in the bass.
Joey Goldstein
> On 12/17/2010 2:47 AM, Paul wrote:
>>
>> So if I'm looking at the lead sheet of a song
>> I'm not familiar with, and I see a dominant 7th chord
>> resolving to pretty much any chord 1/2 step below it,
>> the Lydian b7 scale would most likely fit?
>
> Most likely.
>
>> The Bell and Pickow book says that they
>> need to be "unaltered (no b5 of #9s or anything like
>> that)", for the Lydian b7 scale to apply.
>
> Well the lydian b7 scale has a #4.
> And #4 is enharmonic to b5.
> The extended chord that comes out of the lyd b7 scale is: dom7(9,#11,13).
And the #11 always turns out to be a diatonic note in the target key
(primary or secondary).
In C major:
SubV7 = Db7(9,#11,13) - the #11 is G nat, the dominant of the key of C.
SubV7/IIm = Eb7(9,#11,13) - The #11 is A nat - the sub-mediant of the
key of C and the dominant in the key of D minor.
SubV7/IIIm = F7 - the #11 is B nat, the leading tone in the key of C and
the dominant in the key of E minor.
[Also notice that SubV7/IIIm (F7) is the only tritone sub in major keys
that has a diatonic root.]
SubV7/IV = Gb7(9,#11,13) - the #11 is C, the tonic in C and the dominant
in F.
SubV7/V = Ab7(9,#11,13) - the #11 is D, the supertonic in C and the
dominant in G.
SubV7/VIm = Bb7(9,#11,13) - the #11 is E, the mediant in C and the
dominant in A minor.
In C minor, as in all minor keys, it's a bit different in some spots:
SubV7/bII, is D7. But D7 will be heard as V7/V so it won't take the D
lyd b7 scale.
In minor keys, the normal default scale for V7/V is mix b2b6, or altered.
Remember that D7alt is the same as Ab lyd b7.
In Ab7(9,#11,13), the #11 is D - the supertonic in C minor and a
chromatic note in Db major.
SubV7/bVI is A7. But A7 will be heard as V7/IIm.
In minor keys, the normal default scale for V7/IIm is mix b2b6, or altered.
Remember that A7alt is the same as Eb lyd b7.
In Eb7(9,#11,13), the #11 is A - the raised sub-mediant in C minor and a
chromatic note in Ab major.
SubV7/bIII, if it existed, would be E7.
This is somewhat problematic because E7's root is the major mediant
which can really stick out in a minor key. Even with the regular
secondary dominant progression of V7/bIII (Bb7) to bIII (Eb) it is hard
to not hear it as a key change to the relative major (Eb major).
So I don't think I'd ever label E7 as SubV7/bIII.
It'd have to be SubV7 of Eb in Eb major.
I think I'd probably use E lyd b7 on it if it ever popped up though.
On E7(9,#11,13):
• the 9 is F# which is a chromatic note in both C minor and Eb major.
It's kind of related to the minor mediant (Gb) in Eb minor, also used as
a "blue note" in Eb major.
• the #11 is Bb which is the sub-tonic in C minor and the dominant in Eb
major.
• the 13 is C# which is a chromatic note in C minor and a chromatic note
in Eb major too. It's kinda related to the sub-tonic in Eb minor, also
used as a blue note in Eb major.
So, SubV7/bII, SubV7/bIII and SubV7/bVI are somewhat more exotic
entities than the other possible tritone subs.
All the other possible tritone subs in minor keys (SubV7, SubV7/IIm,
SubV7/IVm and SubV7/V) will have the same relationships as they do in
major keys.
minornoncomformity
For soloing, I treat that Bm7 as Bm7b5. When comping, I don't play a
5th. I would usually play Bm11 (no 5th) = E7sus/B. In this case the
melody would seem to rule out F#, but I wonder what other people do.
Paul
> On 12/17/2010 2:47 AM, Paul wrote:
>
>
>
> > So if I'm looking at the lead sheet of a song
> > I'm not familiar with, and I see a dominant 7th chord
> > resolving to pretty much any chord 1/2 step below it,
> > the Lydian b7 scale would most likely fit?
>
> Most likely.
>
> > The Bell and Pickow book says that they
> > need to be "unaltered (no b5 of #9s or anything like
> > that)", for the Lydian b7 scale to apply.
>
> Well the lydian b7 scale has a #4.
> And #4 is enharmonic to b5.
> The extended chord that comes out of the lyd b7 scale is: dom7(9,#11,13).
>
> Hint:
> Lyd b7 on a tritone sub is the same scale as the altered scale on the
> original dom7 chord.
> Eg. Db7 is the tritone sub for G7.
> Db lyd b7 is the 5th mode of Ab mel minor.
> G altered is the 7th mode of Ab mel min.
> Db7(9,#11,13) is like G7alt/Db and visa versa.
> And they're both also very much like Abm6(9,11,maj7) with either G or Db
> in the bass.
>
That is a good hint. Thanks.....
Paul
You mean like B Locrian over the Bm7? I tried it, and it
sounds
good to me......
minornoncomformity
>
> > > Yes, the B Dorian sounds awkward over the E7b9, as
> > > the b9 is missing.
>
> > > E Altered is much better. THANKS!!!!
>
> > For soloing, I treat that Bm7 as Bm7b5. When comping, I don't play a
> > 5th. I would usually play Bm11 (no 5th) = E7sus/B. In this case the
> > melody would seem to rule out F#, but I wonder what other people do.
>
> You mean like B Locrian over the Bm7? I tried it, and it
> sounds
> good to me......
Yes, that's what I mean. I am hoping others chime in on this, though,
especially the comping. There is a brief window between F naturals in
the melody. Does anybody actually play Bm7?
jimmybruno
amazing how such a simple tune became so complex... make me glad I
have an ear
jimmybruno
One of the most beautiful sonorities in the tune is the Bm7-5 with E
as the melody
Bryce
>
> >>Wow, that's much more complicated than I could manage to think about
> >>while still attempting to play a phrase.
>
>
> > I don't know anyone who thinks that way while their playing, it is
> > purely academic. It is like dissecting a frog, you might know exactly
> > what makes it jump but the beauty of the act escapes you.
>
> tune and found that it has a lot of relatively long things: two bars of X,
> then two bars of Y. Now to a certain extent, Paul did go overboard with the
> Greek names (C major sounds a lot less pretentious that C Ionian), but when
> you play over those chords, even if you are a rank beginner such as myself,
> you'll be doing a lot of those things even if you've forgotten (or never
> bothered to learn) the names...
>
> Now the original post may be technically wrong, or have some bad ideas in
> it. But it's not as "insanely hairy" as it looks at first glance.
>
> --
> David J. Littleboy
> Tokyo, Japan
> > purely academic. It is like dissecting a frog, you might know exactly
> > what makes it jump but the beauty of the act escapes you.
>
> That was my reaction to the original post also. But then I pulled out the
> tune and found that it has a lot of relatively long things: two bars of X,
> then two bars of Y. Now to a certain extent, Paul did go overboard with the
> Greek names (C major sounds a lot less pretentious that C Ionian), but when
> you play over those chords, even if you are a rank beginner such as myself,
> you'll be doing a lot of those things even if you've forgotten (or never
> bothered to learn) the names...
The following rant is my opinion. There are great professional jazz
players here on RMMGJ and I'm NOT one of them. I lost sight of jazz
guitar in 1975 and began playing in 2006. But I had a really good
teacher in NYC in 1972-73 and I studied music at CUNY.
When you think modally you introduced seven different names for the
same group of seven notes. As Jimmy Bruno says on his DVD: the key of
C is all the white keys on the piano. I think more like Jimmy I guess,
except he understands the modal thinking aspects of theory and I don't
understand it; I will never play a locrian scale for example... nah.
I play in keys (sharps, flats, etc.) As far as I've discovered the
modal based theory is a fine way to get you 'there' but it's just one
way to arrive. I only needed to learn the minor and major keys for
tonal centers (covers major, natural minor, dom 7, and minor 7 scales)
and for the other scales: minor-maj 7 (jazz melodic minor aka lydian
b5 or altered whatever you want to call it based on the starting
note), harmonic minor (also as a dominant variant), whole-tone,
symmetric diminished, and pentatonic. The 'modes' of the scales are
too much work for an idiot like me to ponder while playing, and I'd
much rather play arpeggios than scales anyway.
One key point that may be masked by modal chord-scale thinking IMO is
that the 'degrees' of the scales ( I use the word degree rather than
mode) should not be neglected from being looked at from the point of
view of the chord inversion. For the tetradic forms there are only
four different notes therefore four inversions and four scale degrees.
Each scale degree covers the chord inversion in the same position on
the fretboard for example. To move around vertically is easy using
extended fingerings once I recognize the given pattern. It's patterns
that I memorize as well as relative intervals of the chord tones.
Excellent post. Excellent topic. Thank you Paul, JG, and everyone for
your comments. I always print out Joey's comments and paste them into
jazz note book that I keep. He is very kind and I very much appreciate
him for spending his time to help out here; especially to a 'rank
beginner' such as myself.
Bryce
Paul K
>
> Excellent post. Excellent topic. Thank you Paul, JG, and everyone for
> your comments. I always print out Joey's comments and paste them into
> jazz note book that I keep. He is very kind and I very much appreciate
> him for spending his time to help out here; especially to a 'rank
> beginner' such as myself.
>
> Bryce
>
I'll add my thanks to JG, his posts often make me rethink my approach to
things.
minornoncomformity
I agree.
What I was asking about was F#. The changes the OP was using have Bm7,
and he was thinking that B dorian might be a good choice. My ear is
telling me F# doesn't go there either for soloing or comping. I
interpret that chord like you do, as Bm7b5 with E in the melody. I was
surprised that none of the more experienced players mentioned this,
though, so I lost confidence.
Paul
Technically, the 5th edition of the Real book has it as
a Bm7, so B Dorian sounds ok.
But, a B Locrian DOES anticipate the Flat 9 of the
next E7b9, so it sounds better in some ways.
Paul
Your videos are very good. I liked your 4 inversions of the C7
chord....I never play them like that, but especially the 7th in the
bass
sounds great! And I don't usually have a problem with my fingers
being too far from the fret board, but sometimes if the fingering
gets tricky, I'll do it subconsciously. So it was good to be
reminded that it's an inefficient way to play (both guitar and piano,
and any instrument really). Your DVD will be for sale when
your "store" goes up, right?
I don't know how you can get much simpler than
a chromaticised D natural minor or D HM for the entire song,
which has been suggested on this thread.
But I'm definitely curious to know what "no-nonsense"
approach you would recommend for this song.....
Tim McNamara
wrote:
> On 12/18/10 3:15 PM, Bryce wrote:
>
> >
> > Excellent post. Excellent topic. Thank you Paul, JG, and everyone
> > for your comments. I always print out Joey's comments and paste
> > them into jazz note book that I keep. He is very kind and I very
> > much appreciate him for spending his time to help out here;
> > especially to a 'rank beginner' such as myself.
> >
> > Bryce
> >
> I'll add my thanks to JG, his posts often make me rethink my approach
> to things.
I'll ditto that and add a recommendation to get Joey's book. It's
dense, pithy, cuts to the chase and is very useful.
--
Gotta make it somehow on the dreams you still believe.
Mr Maj6th
wrote:
>
> So far I'm using:
>
>D Aeolian >> Dm9
>D harmonic minor >> C# dim
>C Dorian >> Cm6
>B Locrian >> G7/B (G mixolydian starting on B)
>Bb Ionian >> BbM7, EbM7
>D harmonic minor >> Em7b5, A7b9, Dm7
>D Alternate? >> Db13
>C Dorian >> Cm7
>B Dim >> Bdim
>Bb Lydian >> BbM7
>D harmonic minor >> Em7b5, A7, Dm7
>D Alternate? >> Db7
>C Dorian >> Cm9, F7
>B Dorian >> Bm7, E7b9
>Bb Lydian >> BbM7
>D harmonic minor >> A7, Dm7
>
>
> The Db passing chord goes by so
>quickly, it's actually a good time to take a
>break! But I tried the D Alt scale, and it
>sounded good. If anyone can suggest something
>better on any of these scales, please do.
>
> Oh, and for all you "Play-by-Ear-Don't-Think
>-So-Much" types, you can actually use just
>D harmonic minor for the whole song! Not
>completely unbelievable, because as someone
>on a jazz blog pointed out, the melody itself
>kinda "ignores" the chord progression (similar
>to Jobim's One Note Samba).
>
> Either way, it helps to play chromatically
>on this song, especially adding the flatted 7th
>(C natural) to the D harm minor.
I can see this method working if it is a set arrangement or everyone
is following a page in the Real Book, but what do you do when you are
playing with a keyboard player or another guitarist who is using subs
and devices for harmony and changing them each time they come around?
Maj6th
Tim McNamara
<061b981f-b329-4074...@fu15g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
jimmybruno <ji...@jimmybruno.com> wrote:
It is just lovely; that occurs in a number of tunes (the 11th as the
melody note against the b5th) such as "Angel Eyes." It seems like it
ought to be an avoid note, but it isn't.
Joey Goldstein
I adjust the scales I'm playing to fit the chords that he's playing.
Or.. I ask him politely to lay out.
Or.. I continue to play my sounds while he plays his sounds and relish
in the dissonance as it resolves on the next chord, assuming that it
does resolve.
What do *you* do when the keyboard player plays stuff that you don't
expect him to play?
What methodology do *you* have that makes this any easier than what's
discussed above?
Joey Goldstein
Tip:
Experience has taught me that the P11th will sound good on *any* min7b5
chord or min7 chord you ever encounter.
Tim McNamara
Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
Yes, you're right. But being 1/2 step away from the b5 it ought to be
dissonant, but it isn't. It sounds really good.
Joey Goldstein
> In article<67f52$4d0d9f6a$adceee62$15...@PRIMUS.CA>,
When the b5 is below the P11 the interval formed between them is a maj 7th.
If the 11 is below the b5 the interval formed is a min 9th, which is
several times more dissonant.
The b9 interval is the most avoided interval, harmonically speaking, in
all of Tonal music.
There are a few common exceptions, like the b9 in a dom7b9 chord (and a
few less common exceptions), but by-and-large, b9 intervals are avoided
in chords for the most part.
On the other hand, a lot of the more modern players and writers are
incorporating these sounds more and more in their music.
Mr Maj6th
It is certainly distracting when it happens, and the more experienced
the keyboard is, the more it happens. I remain aware of the
underlying harmony but my ear is prepared to take a 180 degree turn to
a whole new direction if need be. This isn't an easier solution but
in my opinion the ear should be the final arbitrator and it would be
more difficult to adapt in an instant if your mind set is, playing is
simply a formula. That doesn't mean that one shouldn't learn all they
can, only that there is much more to playing than quantifying music.
Maj6th
Joey Goldstein
> there is much more to playing than quantifying music.
I'll drink to that!
Tim McNamara
Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
What is considered dissonant changes over time, being more a matter of
taste than a law of physics. Hard to fathom how virulent the reaction
was to the b5 in bebop.